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[NoFaceNico]

I feel oddly convicted over a 94 year old Nazi put on trial.

Ultimately it's good he faces justice, albeit late.

You have to remember, many of the victims of the Holocaust were children. It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that a few of this man's victims are still alive. I'm sure seeing him face trial, albeit late, is a form of justice that they're entitled to.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Wanting him to face judgement for his involvement and wanting legal justice isn't vengeance in any way.

It absolutely is:

Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

The ignorance Oskar expressed in simply doing his job to one of the 20th centuries greatest atrocities.

And now we perpetuate the cycle of ignorance by directing our ire at a human symbol of those atrocities, so far removed from time that the symbol is a man nearly a hundred years old that has been through a life time of thinking and reflection on the evils he participated in.

How about we do some real justice and simply reflect on how and why we cause harm and continue to do so, and figure how and what we can do to lessen the degree of harm we cause.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.

 

[Riposte]

how is operating the due legal process vengeance? that's justice, not vengeance.

Those words are synonymous more often than not.

 

[TheVampire]

What would his jail life even be like?

He seems to frail to be out with the other prisoners.

Would he just stay in bed in his cell?
Cant see that being much difference from being stuck in a nursing home.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

What would his jail life even be like?

He seems to frail to be out with the other prisoners.

Would he just stay in bed in his cell?
Cant see that being much difference from being stuck in a nursing home.

I think his care would be better in prison vs a coalescence home.

 

[Squall5042]

They should put him in that island prison in...Norway I think?

 

[D4Danger]

he should spend the last moments of his life in misery.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

He joined the SS long before the conscription period. He volunteered.

Oh, I take back what I said then.

Still, he was not involved directly with the killings. And has shown signs of change. Should we put him in jail because for some people this man serves for them an icon of a group?

 

[User 479360]

On one hand, I wonder what the point of trying a 94 year-old man is. Then, I think of the Holocaust, which is something so horrendous that it doesn't feel real to think about. I sometimes feel like I'm making things up in my head when I think of what I learned in school, because how could human beings be so evil?

Anyone voluntarily involved in supporting the Holocaust deserves to be in jail permanently.

 

[Switch Back 9]

On one hand, I wonder what the point of trying a 94 year-old man is. Then, I think of the Holocaust, which is something so horrendous that it doesn't feel real to think about. I sometimes feel like I'm making things up in my head when I think of what I learned in school, because how could human beings be so evil?
.
Anyone voluntarily involved in supporting the Holocaust deserves to be in jail permanently

I can't believe there are so many apologists in this thread. If the facts are true, this dude chose to be a Nazi. I don't care how little involvement he had in the grand scheme of things, or how sorry he is, or how old he is. He's to be held accountable in some form. He decided, out of his own volition, to be a Nazi. That deserves some form of punishment or accountability.

 

[99hertz]

My first thought was that they should throw him in a fire and burn him but two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Anyone voluntarily involved in supporting the Holocaust deserves to be in jail permanently.

I hope that everyone realizes this goes against decades of precedent. It's only after the 2011 Demjanjuk case that this idea of going after these people got going.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I can't believe there are so many apologists in this thread. If the facts are true, this dude chose to be a Nazi. I don't care how little involvement he had in the grand scheme of things, or how sorry he is, or how old he is. He's to be held accountable in some form. He decided, out of his own volition, to be a Nazi. That deserves some form of punishment or accountability.

I could also say that you are too focused on revenge. At the end of the day, none of us will decide his outcome, so it's essentially impossible to know for certain who's right and who's wrong. It's impossible to say that I'm an apologist and that you're blinded by the desire of revenge. If he is found guilty, then so be it, and I will accomodate my views to it, and understand that everyone in a single group is accountable for the group's act.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Justice better late than never. Let him rot in prison for the last years of his life.

 

[Switch Back 9]

I could also say that you are too focused on revenge. At the end of the day, none of us will decide his outcome, so it's essentially impossible to know for certain who's right and who's wrong. It's impossible to say that I'm an apologist and that you're blinded by the desire of revenge. If he is found guilty, then so be it, and I will accomodate my views to it, and understand that everyone in a single group is accountable for the group's act.

There are levels of accountability, and he is most certainly accountable to a degree. He shared their views and willingly offered his assistance to the cause, however menial that assistance was. To me that dictates he shoulder some of the blame.

And again, ultimately these decisions are left up to the courts, not NeoGaf. I'm just stating how I feel.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

There are levels of accountability, and he is most certainly accountable to a degree.

And again, ultimately these decisions are left up to the courts, not NeoGaf. I'm just stating how I feel.

Same here.

 

[Coffee Dog]

You have to remember, many of the victims of the Holocaust were children. It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that a few of this man's victims are still alive. I'm sure seeing him face trial, albeit late, is a form of justice that they're entitled to.

Since when do the victim's feelings have any bearing on the actions of the judicial system?

 

[User 479360]

My first thought was that they should throw him in a fire and burn him but two wrongs don't make a right.

Agreed. That was my first thought, too.

 

[antonz]

If it is true he repeatedly tried to be transferred out then its hard to say he was a willing participant in anything. At that point his only option would have been desertion or outright refusal to perform his clerk duties and to get himself killed. Can be argued it would have been more honorable but not everyone can bring themselves to sentence themselves to death.

The man could have lived his entire life never known but he knowingly took a stand that put the crosshairs on him to make sure people would not forget what happened when people tried to bury the holocaust as a Hoax.

 

[Oersted]

Yay, we have Nazi defenders

 

[Azerare]

From actually reading the article people want to send him to jail for being a bag checker, and not actually committing the crime?

You can't charge the man if he didn't legally do anything.
Morality is difficult to determine as people are just going off presumptions.

He's 94, from what it sounds like he was just a witness (evidence and info from article). You can't say justice will be served by giving the punishment when it doesn't fit.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Yay, we have Nazi defenders

Yeah, sure. Read the post before you to understand why I don't want him excecuted on sight. I'll quote it since you didn't even bother to read it:

If it is true he repeatedly tried to be transferred out then its hard to say he was a willing participant in anything. At that point his only option would have been desertion or outright refusal to perform his clerk duties and to get himself killed. Can be argued it would have been more honorable but not everyone can bring themselves to sentence themselves to death.

The man could have lived his entire life never known but he knowingly took a stand that put the crosshairs on him to make sure people would not forget what happened when people tried to bury the holocaust as a Hoax.

 

[Oersted]

Yeah, sure. Read the post before you to understand why I don't want him excecuted on sight. I'll quote it since you didn't even bother to read it:

Erm what? You can't get executed in Germany. He is facing a trial, deal with it.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Yeah, sure. Read the post before you to understand why I don't want him excecuted on sight. I'll quote it since you didn't even bother to read it:

Did you guys miss the part where he said he was cool with exterminating jews but didn't like the current method?

I'm not advocating killing the guy, just saying he's not some innocent who got caught up in this. He signed up for it, he knew what they were about and he shared their beliefs. He's a fucking Nazi, send him to trial.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Erm what? You can't get excecuted in Germany. He is facing a trial, deal with it.

I'm not really bothered by the fact that he's facing trial. He should. I guess I'm just bothered that some guys here want him thrown into a fire. I'm sorry that I was hyperbolic. Ignore my post.

EDIT: I also seemed to have missed that part of the article, where he agreed with the group's beliefs. So ignore all my other posts. I'm an idiot

 

[Jarmel]

I'm not advocating killing the guy, just saying he's not some innocent who got caught up in this. He signed up for it, he knew what they were about and he shared their beliefs. He's a fucking Nazi, send him to trial.

He was a stupid 20 year old raised in a Nazi friendly environment both at home and in public. Turning this into some black and white issue when it's clearly not, is sorta disingenuous.

 

[Trojita]

Did you guys miss the part where he said he was cool with exterminating jews but didn't like the current method?

I'm not advocating killing the guy, just saying he's not some innocent who got caught up in this. He signed up for it, he knew what they were about and he shared their beliefs. He's a fucking Nazi, send him to trial.

He didn't realize they were killing them at first. His disdain for the Jewish people was heavily influenced by the German Propaganda. War Crime charges wouldn't work in this case. You do know that Nazi Soldiers were also not brought up on warcrimes? It was the officers, orchestrators, and guards committing the atrocities. This guy checked possessions in and was told that they would get their stuff back. When he later witnessed what was going on he was told he signed up for this.

He was a stupid 20 year old raised in a Nazi friendly environment both at home and in public. Turning this into some black and white issue when it's clearly not, is sorta disingenuous.

People lose their mind when the word Nazi is used.

 

[Switch Back 9]

He was a stupid 20 year old raised in a Nazi friendly environment both at home and in public. Turning this into some black and white issue when it's clearly not, is sorta disingenuous.

The people saying "let him go" or "throw him in a fire" are making it black and white. I've stated repeatedly that he should face some form of justice in measure to how guilty he is, as the courts figure. Saying he was just a stupid 20 year old so all is forgiven takes away from the thousands of individuals like him that willingly chose to prop up and support a regime that explicitly stated one of its major goals was literally murdering millions of people. This nature vs nurture idea that absolves him of guilt is offensive to the people who died because of people like him.

He didn't realize they were killing them at first. His disdain for the Jewish people was heavily influenced by the German Propaganda. War Crime charges wouldn't work in this case. You do know that Nazi Soldiers were also not brought up on warcrimes? It was the officers, orchestrators, and guards committing the atrocities. This guy checked possessions in and was told that they would get their stuff back. When he later witnessed what was going on he was told he signed up for this.

If this is the case then I am clearly ignorant of the laws regarding what exactly he will be charged with, my mistake. I stand by my point that, in my opinion, he should face some form of justice, however small, for his decisions.

I guess he wasn't intelligent enough to be brought to the US to work for NASA.

That's a whole other can of worms.

 

[Majanew]

I guess he wasn't intelligent enough to be brought to the US to work for NASA.

 

[D4Danger]

He was a stupid 20 year old raised in a Nazi friendly environment both at home and in public. Turning this into some black and white issue when it's clearly not, is sorta disingenuous.

the Nazi's tried to hide the concentration camps at the end because they knew it what they were doing was a war crime

don't even try to play this off like he was just some naive young soldier. Everyone involved knew exactly what this was.

 

[Jarmel]

The people saying "let him go" or "throw him in a fire" are making it black and white. I've stated repeatedly that he should face some form of justice in measure to how guilty he is, as the courts figure. Saying he was just a stupid 20 year old so all is forgiven takes away from the thousands of individuals like him that willingly chose to prop up and support a regime that explicitly stated one of its major goals was literally murdering millions of people. This nature vs nurture idea that absolves him of guilt is offensive to the people who died because of people like him.

Blaming him for the sins of a society is a bit unfair. That was a time where the Nazis were looked at as saviors of Germany, a lot of this is hindsight. I think it's unreasonable to expect a 20 year old to know better when there were adults much older and wiser than him that went along just as much. Not to mention the environment he was raised in, didn't exactly produce critical thinkers.

 

[Khaos_Knight]

The key word there is part, the other part is punishment. He deserves to rot in jail until he croaks no matter how long or short of a time that may be.

Lol he already lived his life. He's already at the end of life so I doubt it matters to him whether he spends his last few years in prison or free.

 

[Legato.Reborn-]

Yay, we have Nazi defenders

"haha yeah righ-

... *scrolls*

oh my god"

 

[Jarmel]

the Nazi's tried to hide the concentration camps at the end because they knew it what they were doing was a war crime

don't even try to play this off like he was just some naive young soldier. Everyone involved knew exactly what this was.

He was though, from what I can tell, he was raised in a Nationalist family and surrounded by propaganda due to his involvement in the Hitler Youth. He didn't have any point of contrast.

I'm not saying he should be absolved of his own guilt, it's clear he had to live with it for however many years.

 

[DarkFlow]

I think I remember this guy from the BBC miniseries on Auschwitz.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Blaming him for the sins of a society is a bit unfair. That was a time where the Nazis were looked at as saviors of Germany, a lot of this is hindsight. I think it's unreasonable to expect a 20 year old to know better when there were adults much older and wiser than him that went along just as much. Not to mention the environment he was raised in, didn't exactly produce critical thinkers.

Which as far as I understood is why guards, orchestrators, and higher-ups (officers) were the ones who were always charged.

 

[Trojita]

the Nazi's tried to hide the concentration camps at the end because they knew it what they were doing was a war crime

don't even try to play this off like he was just some naive young soldier. Everyone involved knew exactly what this was.

They hid them the whole time. The greater amount of the German populace didn't know about them. The Allied soldiers didn't know about them until we came upon the first one.

 

[DarkFlow]

the Nazi's tried to hide the concentration camps at the end because they knew it what they were doing was a war crime

don't even try to play this off like he was just some naive young soldier. Everyone involved knew exactly what this was.

He wasn't there at the end, he was on the front lines and was captured by the brits. So them trying to hide them has no bearing on this.

 

[Jarmel]

Which as far as I understood is why guards, orchestrators, and higher-ups (officers) were the ones who were always charged.

That's pretty much where I stand with it. There were probably some others that needed to have been hanged but if you went through Germany after the war hanging those supportive of the Nazis, Germany would be a lot smaller of a country today.

 

[googleplex]

Blaming him for the sins of a society is a bit unfair. That was a time where the Nazis were looked at as saviors of Germany, a lot of this is hindsight. I think it's unreasonable to expect a 20 year old to know better when there were adults much older and wiser than him that went along just as much. Not to mention the environment he was raised in, didn't exactly produce critical thinkers.

There was a simular discussion in the thread about the Baltimore riots. How innocent is the average White American that not only benifits from a system of ingrained racial discrimination, but continues to turn a blind eye to the murders of unarmed black men by the police?

 

[BigJonsson]

I don't care how old he is, he participated in the Holocaust

 

[DarkFlow]

There was a simular discussion in the thread about the Baltimore riots. How innocent is the average White American that not only benifits from a system of ingrained racial discrimination, but continues to turn a blind eye to the murders of unarmed black men by the police?

So white americans are now comparable to Nazi's... wow.

 

[Jarmel]

There was a simular discussion in the thread about the Baltimore riots. How innocent is the average White American that not only benifits from a system of ingrained racial discrimination, but continues to turn a blind eye to the murders of unarmed black men by the police?

There are definitely modern comparisons you could do although that's a bit extreme. Our era is vastly different due to things like the internet that expose youth to different viewpoints at a much younger age.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I don't care how old he is, he participated in the Holocaust

If our litmus test for sentencing post WWII was as simple "he participated in the Holocaust" (whether in a direct, large, indirect or small way), a lot more of the German population should have been in prison.

 

[East Lake]

There was a simular discussion in the thread about the Baltimore riots. How innocent is the average White American that not only benifits from a system of ingrained racial discrimination, but continues to turn a blind eye to the murders of unarmed black men by the police?

Fairly innocent. Even the openly racist aren't that way from being in a vacuum. They can turn on fox news and have all the ideology they need fed to them. This stuff is enabled from the top down. Prosecuting some peon doesn't accomplish much of anything.

 

[AuthenticM]

The guy is 94. Money for the trial can be better used elsewhere.

Don't forget every cost associated with the prison system.

 

[MikeyB]

So white americans are now comparable to Nazi's... wow.

An internal combustion engine can power a lawnmower or a racecar.

The point being made is about the mechanics of moral responsibility. That one example is genocide and the other is economic inequality would certainly affect the appropriate response to someone being held morally responsible for one or the other. It shouldn't however affect that they were morally responsible.

 

[KorrZ]

I don't think it's right to lock him up at this point. I mean, it's been 70 years, and it sounds like the dude is fully aware and regretful for what he was a part of. Isn't the point of prison supposed to be about rehabilitation for reentry into society, or alternatively keeping dangerous people sectioned off from the general population?

This old man fits neither of those criteria. Vengeance is literally the only motivating factor here.

 

[Majanew]

There was a simular discussion in the thread about the Baltimore riots. How innocent is the average White American that not only benifits from a system of ingrained racial discrimination, but continues to turn a blind eye to the murders of unarmed black men by the police?

As long as you ignore that more white people are killed by police every year than black people.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

As long as you ignore that more white people are killed by police every year than black people.

Sheer numbers don't matter. You should look at percentages as functions of population size.

But anyways, can we not turn this thread into a topic about American issues? Let's get back to the guy at hand. I read earlier today that his sentence is due potentially sometime Wednesday.