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Up: 94 year old former SS-Guard convicted for Auschwitz

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a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
So, he must be condemned because he didn't do something about it?



You do know soldiers don't get convicted the way regular civilians are, right? The whole "just following orders" is a valid excuse, or "defending the homeland."

Am I the only one that read this part!?

"Unlike some Germans, he volunteered and was ideologically a Nazi. Even after seeing the deaths at Auschwitz, his complaint wasn't the extermination of the Jews, but the method by which it was being accomplished."

HE WASN'T JUST A SOLDIER FOLLOWING ORDERS. HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI THROUGH AND THROUGH.
 
Am I the only one that read this part!?

"Unlike some Germans, he volunteered and was ideologically a Nazi. Even after seeing the deaths at Auschwitz, his complaint wasn't the extermination of the Jews, but the method by which it was being accomplished."

HE WASN'T JUST A SOLDIER FOLLOWING ORDERS. HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI THROUGH AND THROUGH.

And...? Why wouldn't he have joined the party. It was a fairly prestigious group.

It's not like he was personally shoving Anne Frank in the oven or some shit. He was basically a book keeper.

Actually charge war crimes to people who committed crimes
 
Am I the only one that read this part!?

"Unlike some Germans, he volunteered and was ideologically a Nazi. Even after seeing the deaths at Auschwitz, his complaint wasn't the extermination of the Jews, but the method by which it was being accomplished."

HE WASN'T JUST A SOLDIER FOLLOWING ORDERS. HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI THROUGH AND THROUGH.

Again, is there a source? Because there's lots of information flying around here and the only ones posting sources talk about a troubled individual, not a complacent one.

The trial will have the final word, but if you're going to judge the man, at least have the decency to post your sources so we can all be on the same page.
 

dubq

Member
And...? It's not like he was personally shoving Anne Frank in the oven or some shit. He was basically a book keeper.

Which is why he's being tried for accessory to murder.


People in here asking why he wasn't tried earlier.. was he in hiding?
 

Switch Back 9

a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Again, is there a source? Because there's lots of information flying around here and the only ones posting sources talk about a troubled individual, not a complacent one.

The trial will have the final word, but if you're going to judge the man, at least have the decency to post your sources so we can all be on the same page.

I'm only using the quotes from the previous page as an argument against the poster I had quoted, and both of us are not debating whether or not he actually did those things, but that if these facts are true, whether or not he should be charged for them. Whether or not he is guilty I'll leave up to the courts, I don't have proof either way. All I'm saying is that IF these facts are true, he should be tried.

And...? Why wouldn't he have joined the party. It was a fairly prestigious group.

It's not like he was personally shoving Anne Frank in the oven or some shit. He was basically a book keeper.

Actually charge war crimes to people who committed crimes

If you signed up to be a member of the Nazi party, whatever your specific duties are should not matter. If you willingly join and support an organization like this, whatever you do to assist them makes you guilty. Anybody who had the choice, and chose this way, should be charged as a war criminal.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I think the man deserves punishment if, for no other reason than to send the message that you can't escape justice simply by outliving it. What that punishment should be I don't know. I'm not really an expert on that sort of thing, and leave it to those who are. But that the man should at least be brought to trial for his part in crimes, however old, I agree. If he's made penance in the decades since, let the trial prove it. But none of this "he's old so he gets a free pass on his part in historic evil" stuff. The least he can do is stand trial.
 

benjipwns

Banned
wasnt this guy in the BBC Auschwitz documentary in 2006?

he wasnt shy or ashamed of what he did from what I remember. question is why now? he seems to be pretty public about it, why hold the trial now?
I believe Germany wants to wrap up the Nazi war crime trials to the best of their abilities since they're all dying off on them otherwise.
 

gai_shain

Member
Which is why he's being tried for accessory to murder.


People in here asking why he wasn't tried earlier.. was he in hiding?

No, it didnt go to trial in the 80s because of lack of evidence. Someone else was recently convicted for working at Ausschwitz with the same amount of evidence I guess so its getting rolled back up
 

Kallor

Member
I remember the last thread on gaf about some 90 year old Nazi being found, of course it was accompanied with silly posts such as: "its too late" "leave him alone"

Like one of the largest atrocities ever should just be forgotten because you look like someones grampa now. Fuck that. Maybe hes not guilty here, but it should be investigated.
 

Switch Back 9

a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
I prefer to believe sources, again.

Here's his Wikipedia.

That's one place to start.

What's your point here? Let the courts handle all the details. The only thing I was arguing, was that IF he willingly signed up to be a Nazi, and assisted, in whatever capacity he did, regardless of later being "shocked" by what he saw, too fucking bad. Is he AS guilty as other war criminals? Of course not, but he should still be tried within that framework.

The courts can figure out things like level of guilt and punishment, but as far as I'm concerned, if you willingly signed up to join and felt that the party's ideals matched your own, you're a fucking Nazi and should be charged as one.
 
The courts can figure out things like level of guilt and punishment, but as far as I'm concerned, if you willingly signed up to join and felt that the party's ideals matched your own, you're a fucking Nazi and should be charged as one.

That's a bit visceral, don't you think? Specially because this man didn't keep his story secret and campaigned heavily against holocaust denial. I'm not one to say the man didn't firmly join the SS, but reading his story it really doesn't sound like one who was there for the killing.
 

Switch Back 9

a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
That's a bit visceral, don't you think? Specially because this man didn't keep his story secret and campaigned heavily against holocaust denial. I'm not one to say the man didn't firmly join the SS, but reading his story it really doesn't sound like one who was there for the killing.

It is certainly a bit visceral. My grandparents fought in the war and my whole life I've been raised to maintain this attitude towards Nazis and Fascists. My best friend's grandfather was German and got sent to a camp because he refused to join up. I have zero pity, remorse or empathy for any person who willingly signed up to be a member of the Nazi party. I couldn't care less that he "felt bad" or campaigned against holocaust denial. Doesn't make up for it (In my humble opinion of course)
 

FStop7

Banned
His sentence should be that he speaks out to groups about what happened during the holocaust.

A sentence of community service for participating in genocide.

This was the experiment I mentioned before:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


It's been recreated several times and has had consistent results. It's something people should look at when immediately condemning him for even being an SS officer.

This wasn't a social experiment in a teacher's basement.
 

Chariot

Member
His sentence should be that he speaks out to groups about what happened during the holocaust.
He is already doing that. If anything, they should give him free tickets for the train or, given his health, a driver and bring him to schools all over Germany to tell his story. Scratch the schools, bring him everywhere, to childens and adults.
 

Amentallica

Unconfirmed Member
A sentence of community service for participating in genocide.



This wasn't a social experiment in a teacher's basement.

I didn't say how exactly that should be enforced, only that it should be done. It's more useful than having him just rot in prison. If you want him to rot in prison, by all means, feel that way, but I feel that, at the very least, he should be speaking out.
 

lawnchair

Banned
I honestly don't see why not. What are they going to go out and do?

the idea (espoused by many in this thread) is that they need to suffer until they die of old age, which seems pretty cruel.

yes, maybe he was party to very cruel things himself. doesn't mean we need to do cruel shit to him and call it justice. why? because WE ARENT FUCKING NAZIS.
 

Switch Back 9

a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
the idea (espoused by many in this thread) is that they need to suffer until they die of old age, which seems pretty cruel.

yes, maybe he was party to very cruel things himself. doesn't mean we need to do cruel shit to him and call it justice. why? because WE ARENT FUCKING NAZIS.

Nobody is suggesting anything cruel, quite the contrary as a few posters have suggested community service or something similar. Most people feel, rightly so I believe, that he should face some form of justice for the choices he made.
 
Nobody is suggesting anything cruel, quite the contrary as a few posters have suggested community service or something similar. Most people feel, rightly so I believe, that he should face some form of justice for the choices he made.

Bullshit. He is one of the last living relics that can directly spread the word of the atrocities that he witnessed. It's very important that we don't squander that that basically sending him to die.
 

Switch Back 9

a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Bullshit. He is one of the last living relics that can directly spread the word of the atrocities that he witnessed. It's very important that we don't squander that that basically sending him to die.

Well yeah I agree with you there. I never once said "let's kill this guy".
 

Kusagari

Member
According to his Wiki the guy was raised by a nationalist and in the Hitler Youth as a child.

I don't see the point of charging people like this, especially when they're this old. Yes, what he participated in was unforgivable but he was just another cog raised in the Nazism machine. And he now speaks out against Holocaust denial and has recognized the evil he watched happen.

Is trying a clerk really going to do anything at this point in giving the remaining survivors peace?
 
These "what's the point?" arguments make me mad. Sentencing a Nazi as he was is not about rehabilitation. It's not about keeping a killer off the streets. It's about the principal of the damn thing. The Holocaust was the worst humanity ever had to offer. He should be hanged for what he did.
 

dream

Member
These "what's the point?" arguments make me mad. Sentencing a Nazi as he was is not about rehabilitation. It's not about keeping a killer off the streets. It's about the principal of the damn thing. The Holocaust was the worst humanity ever had to offer. He should be hanged for what he did.

When it comes down to it, I don't think anyone was or could be punished enough for the Holocaust. So when we--as a people--have the opportunity to hold someone accountable for it, I think we have a moral responsibility to punish them as severely as possible.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Good that he's facing justice, but I think in the case of the very old and frail, with so much time between the crime and the present day, the prosecution should really take a look at how much of a danger he still poses (likely none) and whether he expresses genuine regret before they reach their decision. Not that I think any of that should preclude jail time, mind...just that such a sentence wouldn't really serve anyone, outside of satisfying the public's need for vengeance. Which isn't an entirely unworthy goal...

Fuck that. He didn't deserve those years of freedom. Put him in general population with the animals.
 
His advocacy to fight denying the holocaust is bullshit to me. That he hasn't left long apology on the table next to his hanging corpse shows he lacks a shred of remorse or even a remnant of human decency.
 
His advocacy to fight denying the holocaust is bullshit to me. That he hasn't left long apology on the table next to his hanging corpse shows he lacks a shred of remorse or even a remnant of human decency.
Him being sorry requires him to hang himself? Some of you people are absolute animals.
 

antonz

Member
It seems like he was a glorified clerk based on his duties. That is not to say he is innocent but at this point it seems like a waste. At this point it would be better to get him to continue speaking out to the memory of the holocaust. That would be more beneficial than any kind of punishment people could come up with.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
This is a super iffy case due to him being so old, being involved at Auswitch, but not being actively involved in the genocide.

Oskar Gröning (born 10 June 1921) is a German former SS-Unterscharführer who was stationed at Auschwitz concentration camp. His responsibilities included counting and sorting the money taken from prisoners, and he was in charge of the effects prisoners had arrived with. On occasions he witnessed the procedures of mass-killing in the camp. After being transferred from Auschwitz to a combat unit in October 1944, Gröning was captured by the British on 10 June 1945 when his unit surrendered. He was eventually transferred to Britain as a prisoner of war and worked as a forced labourer.

Upon his return to Germany he led a normal life, reluctant to talk about his time in Auschwitz. However, more than 40 years later, he decided to make his activities at Auschwitz public after learning about Holocaust denial. He has since openly criticised those who deny the events that he witnessed, and the ideology to which he once subscribed.
The next day, Gröning and the other arrivals reported to the central SS administrative building and were asked about their background before the war.[2]:142 One of the officers said Gröning's bank clerk skills would be useful, and took him to barracks where the prisoners' money was kept.[2]:142 Gröning was told that when prisoners were registered into the camp, their money was stored here and later returned to them when they left.[2]:142

It became clear that Auschwitz was not a normal internment camp with above average SS rations, but that it served an additional function.[2]:142 Gröning was informed that money taken from interned Jews was not actually returned to them.[2]:142 When he enquired further, his colleagues confirmed that the Jews were being systematically exterminated and that this had included the transport of prisoners who had arrived the previous night.[2

Once finding out what was happening it seems that he didn't care about the actual result, possibly due to the propaganda at the time, but by the method that it was done. His beliefs seem to have changed later in life, evidenced by him coming out against holocaust deniers. To whether he was tortured all these years for witnessing these attrocities and doing nothing to stop them, we won't know.
 

Trickster

Member
What a fucking moronic lawsuit against this man. He's being tried for fucking 300 thousand murders that he himself had seemingly nothing to do with? From what it says in the article, the guy inspected luggage for christ sake.
 

Chariot

Member
What a fucking moronic lawsuit against this man. He's being tried for fucking 300 thousand murders that he himself had seemingly nothing to do with? From what it says in the article, the guy inspected luggage for christ sake.
He inspected luggage of deported people he knew entering, but not leaving and stole their shit. He was working at Auschwitz. So it's not that small in my eyes.

But on the hand he is doing good right now and could do a lot more by telling what he saw instead of rotting to death in jail.
 

lawnchair

Banned
I realize that we are living in a time of compassion and empathy, but some people do deserve to suffer.

sometimes you just have to throw compassion and empathy out the window, eh? especially when dealing with 94 year olds. come on.

would you guys also suggest jail time for the elderly dudes who dropped bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki?
 

HUELEN10

Member
Good that he's facing justice, but I think in the case of the very old and frail, with so much time between the crime and the present day, the prosecution should really take a look at how much of a danger he still poses (likely none) and whether he expresses genuine regret before they reach their decision. Not that I think any of that should preclude jail time, mind...just that such a sentence wouldn't really serve anyone, outside of satisfying the public's need for vengeance. Which isn't an entirely unworthy goal...
Wanting him to face judgement for his involvement and wanting legal justice isn't vengeance in any way.
 
I think people downplaying the need for some punishment in this case are lacking the perspective of the victims themselves.

We might say that it's petty or barbaric, but these people have gone through hell on earth.

They want someone to pay for it. And in that sense, I understand them.
 

dream

Member
sometimes you just have to throw compassion and empathy out the window, eh? especially when dealing with 94 year olds. come on.

would you guys also suggest jail time for the elderly dudes who dropped bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki?

That seems more just than tacitly forgiving them, yes.
 
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