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[Deleted member 80556]

He was SS for christ sakes.

Huh. I seem to remember that towards the end of the war, the higher ups in the Nazi regime knew they were gonna lose and thus were making low rank soldiers part of the SS in order for them to take the fall. I also remember that people like Wernher von Braun (who worked for NASA) were demanded to join the SS. Not even asked to join. Demanded. Von Braun also said this when SS thing was brought up:

Realizing that the matter was of highly political significance for the relation between the SS and the Army, I called immediately on my military superior ..., Dr. Dornberger. He informed me that the SS had for a long time been trying to get their "finger in the pie" of the rocket work. I asked him what to do. He replied on the spot that if I wanted to continue our mutual work, I had no alternative but to join.

Things are not black and white in the real world, even for this kind of thing. And he was a bag checker for christ sakes.

 

[neogaffer1]

This was the experiment I mentioned before:

Before conducting the experiment, Milgram polled fourteen Yale University senior-year psychology majors to predict the behavior of 100 hypothetical teachers. All of the poll respondents believed that only a very small fraction of teachers (the range was from zero to 3 out of 100, with an average of 1.2) would be prepared to inflict the maximum voltage. Milgram also informally polled his colleagues and found that they, too, believed very few subjects would progress beyond a very strong shock.[1] Milgram also polled forty psychiatrists from a medical school, and they believed that by the tenth shock, when the victim demands to be free, most subjects would stop the experiment. They predicted that by the 300-volt shock, when the victim refuses to answer, only 3.73 percent of the subjects would still continue and, they believed that "only a little over one-tenth of one percent of the subjects would administer the highest shock on the board."[6]

In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock,[1] though many were very uncomfortable doing so; at some point, every participant paused and questioned the experiment; some said they would refund the money they were paid for participating in the experiment. Throughout the experiment, subjects displayed varying degrees of tension and stress. Subjects were sweating, trembling, stuttering, biting their lips, groaning, digging their fingernails into their skin, and some were even having nervous laughing fits or seizures.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


It's been recreated several times and has had consistent results. It's something people should look at when immediately condemning him for even being an SS officer.

 

[WanderingWind]

Huh. I seem to remember that towards the end of the war, the higher ups in the Nazi regime knew they were gonna lose and thus were making low rank soldiers part of the SS in order for them to take the fall. I also remember that people like Wernher von Braun (who worked for NASA) were demanded to join the SS. Not even asked to join. Demanded. Von Braun also said this when SS thing was brought up:



Things are not black and white in the real world, even for this kind of thing. And he was a bag checker for christ sakes.

He joined the SS long before the conscription period. He volunteered.

 

[Walshicus]

Don't really see the point. Baggage clerk? Requested transfer? Spent post-war years speaking out against holocaust denial?

If every Nazi was arrested after the war there would barely be any Germans left free; reconciliation and rehabilitation seems to have worked out quite well for Germany...

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

The ignorance Oskar expressed in simply doing his job to one of the 20th centuries greatest atrocities.

And now we perpetuate the cycle of ignorance by directing our ire at a human symbol of those atrocities, so far removed from time that the symbol is a man nearly a hundred years old that has been through a life time of thinking and reflection on the evils he participated in.

How about we do some real justice and simply reflect on how and why we cause harm and continue to do so, and figure how and what we can do to lessen the degree of harm we cause.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.

Really like this post.

Was he living peacefully all this time? Put that asshole in the prison right now. No mercy for holocaust suspects.

Taking an attitude of "no mercy" is really deplorable.

 

[DoktorEvil]

There was no evidence, thus the charges were drop really.

No, which is why they didn't go through with it. As someone stated, this recent trial is because someone else was convicted a few years ago by just working in another Vernichtungslager. Some people are out for the remaining small cogs.

But there isn't evidence of direct wrongdoing on his part or complicity? Anything?

Even the case surrounding SS guard John Demjanjuk is all over the place with respect to blame and concrete evidence by multiple country tribunals.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007956

 

[Walshicus]

Taking an attitude of "no mercy" is really deplorable.

The quality of mercy is not strain'd...

 

[E92 M3]

In that pic he looks like Aemon from GoT.

He does actually, lol.

 

[Mad Season]

RIP

 

[Servbot24]

"Jail" time would be in a home anyways.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Sentence him but don't apply the sentence. It's not as if he will be reoffending at 94 anyway.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The quality of mercy is not strain'd...

...It is twice blessed: It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

 

[Raiden]

People get soft when they see an old man. Roll back the camera 70 years to the atrocities he participated in please. No rest for the wicked this man can rot in prison.

 

[besada]

What do you and others consider "actively involved"?

Well, he watched it happen and stayed. He collected the monies and property of those Jews being put in the gas chamber and sent it on along to the Reich. Eventually he went to the front lines and was an active soldier until captured, where he lied about his role in the war to protect himself. Unlike some Germans, he volunteered and was ideologically a Nazi. Even after seeing the deaths at Auschwitz, his complaint wasn't the extermination of the Jews, but the method by which it was being accomplished.

I'm not sure making an old man serve three years helps anyone, but Oskar Groning isn't exactly an innocent.

 

[burnside13]

"Hey old man, what are you in here for? ??" *laughs to self*

"300 000 counts of accessory to murder"

"Wait wut"

 

[gimmmick]

Throw the book at this fucker. Being apart of something so horrific doesn't deserve any sympathy..

 

[Sayad]

People get soft when they see an old man. Roll back the camera 70 years to the atrocities he participated in please. No rest for the wicked this man can rot in prison.

It appeared to be a rhetorical question as Groening is not known to have participated in the medical experiments but was instead responsible for inspecting the luggage of arriving prisoners and sending any money found to Berlin to fund the Nazi war effort.

Such atrocities!
Might as well put every Natzi solder on trail, or better yet, every German who's tax money help fund those atrocities.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

The ignorance Oskar expressed in simply doing his job to one of the 20th centuries greatest atrocities.

And now we perpetuate the cycle of ignorance by directing our ire at a human symbol of those atrocities, so far removed from time that the symbol is a man nearly a hundred years old that has been through a life time of thinking and reflection on the evils he participated in.

How about we do some real justice and simply reflect on how and why we cause harm and continue to do so, and figure how and what we can do to lessen the degree of harm we cause.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Jailing him would be senseless at this point. He's nearly a century old and has lived with this for decades. People are far too interested in making an ultimately useless statement by punishing him. The fact that they're even bothering with it so long after the fact is a farce, especially considering that the reason he entered the public eye in the first place was because he wanted to speak out against Holocaust denial.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Such atrocities!
Might as well put every Natzi solder on trail, or better yet, every German who's tax money help fund those atrocities.

They absolutely should.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

They absolutely should.

That would not be a good precedent.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Put him in jail

 

[Switch Back 9]

That would not be a good precedent.

Why? Again, purely speaking for SS, not Wermacht. I realize at this point it time it's pretty pointless and costly etc... but if you signed up for and fought under that banner you should absolutely have been put on trial at some point.

 

[Omegasquash]

In the objective sense, no, it shouldn't, assuming that the "Waste of money" is backed up with reasoned arguments.

In an overall social conversation, I get what you are saying, and agree. Thanks for talking through it.

Of course

 

[-COOLIO-]

Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

The ignorance Oskar expressed in simply doing his job to one of the 20th centuries greatest atrocities.

And now we perpetuate the cycle of ignorance by directing our ire at a human symbol of those atrocities, so far removed from time that the symbol is a man nearly a hundred years old that has been through a life time of thinking and reflection on the evils he participated in.

How about we do some real justice and simply reflect on how and why we cause harm and continue to do so, and figure how and what we can do to lessen the degree of harm we cause.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.

yeah.

basically, i just watched frozen and "let it go" is ringing strong.

 

[FStop7]

Obviously what he did was unforgivable. But do they really want to waste money on a trial and all that...Just wait another week he will probably croak anyway. Is it really going to give any sense of justice to put a 94 year old man in jail?

Yes. 300,000 people.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Why? Again, purely speaking for SS, not Wermacht. I realize at this point it time it's pretty pointless and costly etc... but if you signed up for and fought under that banner you should absolutely have been put on trial at some point.

I was thinking more that you can't try every member of a losing military with a crime.

 

[Chariot]

I was thinking more that you can't try every member of a losing military with a crime.

Justvingeneral: SS was more than military. It had a military division, it was more than that. It was also in charge of the administrative side of settlements and KZs and of inner securiy. The notorious Gestapo was part of the SS for example. It's not that easy as just putting the SS into the miliary.

 

[Switch Back 9]

I was thinking more that you can't try every member of a losing military with a crime.

Not the losing military. Members of the Luftwaffe, Wermacht, Kriegsmarine (unless specific individual's crimes stick out) would not be tried. Just the SS.

And again, I'm aware that such a task would be ridiculously hard both in scope, accuracy, and cost, I'm just spouting my opinion from a 70-years-later moral perspective.

 

[Syph Medwes]

Lol "hes too old"
So are we gonna start releasing lifers once they hit their 90s?

 

[Fuzzery]

Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

The ignorance Oskar expressed in simply doing his job to one of the 20th centuries greatest atrocities.

And now we perpetuate the cycle of ignorance by directing our ire at a human symbol of those atrocities, so far removed from time that the symbol is a man nearly a hundred years old that has been through a life time of thinking and reflection on the evils he participated in.

How about we do some real justice and simply reflect on how and why we cause harm and continue to do so, and figure how and what we can do to lessen the degree of harm we cause.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.

Yup

 

[DoktorEvil]

Lol "hes too old"
So are we gonna start releasing lifers once they hit their 90s?

Some US prisons do that, because of the overhead and associated costs with housing an inmate. Don't know how other country work their penal system, but ours does allow it.

 

[Octavianus]

Lol "hes too old"
So are we gonna start releasing lifers once they hit their 90s?

Of course. keeping them in jail doesn't serve a purpose apparently.

 

[ghostjoke]

While I won't loss sleep over him if he ends up in prison, it feels like a waste of time and money to satisfy revenge instead of justice.

 

[hunnies28]

The guy already lived his life.

 

[TelemachusD]

There seems to be a lot of ignorance of the facts in this thread. I recommend watching the excellent Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State, which was on Netflix until recently. The defendant in this case is interviewed extensively about his involvement.

-'Baggage clerk' is an understatement. he was responsible for scouring through the effects of the arriving Jews, gathering and tabulating cash and anything else of value. After his first day at the camp, he knew that the people who came there were being exterminated.

-At the time, he was okay with the act of extermination, but not the methods:

...a baby crying. The child was lying on the ramp, wrapped in rags. A mother had left it behind, perhaps because she knew that women with infants were sent to the gas chambers immediately. I saw another SS soldier grab the baby by the legs. The crying had bothered him. He smashed the baby's head against the iron side of a truck until it was silent.[3]

After witnessing this, Gröning went to his boss and told him that he was not able to work at Auschwitz any more, stating that if the extermination of the Jews is necessary, "then at least it should be done within a certain framework".[2]:138 The superior officer denied Gröning's request.[2]:138

-After witnessing other atrocities, he again requested a transfer but was denied. He knew what was happening and purposely avoided witnessing more killings.

-He was eventually allowed to transfer to a regular unit in 1944. After the surrender, he lied and said he was assigned somewhere else.

-He kept it a secret for 40 years, until confronted with holocaust deniers. Since then he has appeared in documentaries such as the one referenced above and been entirely open with his story.

-He now fully condemns his former ideology and feels guilt as part of the organization of killing, but denies being a direct participant.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Well, he watched it happen and stayed. He collected the monies and property of those Jews being put in the gas chamber and sent it on along to the Reich. Eventually he went to the front lines and was an active soldier until captured, where he lied about his role in the war to protect himself. Unlike some Germans, he volunteered and was ideologically a Nazi. Even after seeing the deaths at Auschwitz, his complaint wasn't the extermination of the Jews, but the method by which it was being accomplished.

I'm not sure making an old man serve three years helps anyone, but Oskar Groning isn't exactly an innocent.

I have found the bolded a lot in my research. No one was really upset with their government killing millions, they were upset that the war was being lost.

 

[Megalosaro]

I am of the opinion that only the leaders and those that did especially cruel acts personally should be tried for war crimes. A guard? Not so much. This is just victors justice.

 

[Switch Back 9]

I am of the opinion that only the leaders and those that did especially cruel acts personally should be tried for war crimes. A guard? Not so much. This is just victors justice.

Did you read the post above yours? Fuck this guy. I don't care what he did after the war, or how much "remorse" he felt, or any of that shit. He was there, he knew what was happening, and he was pretty much ok with it.

 

[Megalosaro]

So what if he knew and was OK with it? What bearing does that have?

 

[Angry Grimace]

It the words of Louis CK "HE'S REALLY OLD!" I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish.

 

[Switch Back 9]

So what if he knew and was OK with it? What bearing does that have?

Then he's just as guilty as the "higher ups" and should be charged accordingly. If true, he's a fucking war criminal. Period. Why should it matter that he was "just a guard"?

 

[Robdraggoo]

wasnt this guy in the BBC Auschwitz documentary in 2006?

he wasnt shy or ashamed of what he did from what I remember. question is why now? he seems to be pretty public about it, why hold the trial now?

 

[TheSecondSpitter]

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time

If you wish to promote a positivist argument, then no Nazis would have been found guilty at Nuremberg......

 

[Pinko Marx]

Lol "hes too old"
So are we gonna start releasing lifers once they hit their 90s?

I honestly don't see why not. What are they going to go out and do?

 

[PeskyToaster]

So what if he knew and was OK with it? What bearing does that have?

The Holocaust wouldn't have happened without men like him 'just following orders'. Society decided that's not a valid excuse.

 

[BrassDragon]

I'm absolutely fine with the trial.

There is a broad consensus in Western-Europe that the industrial-scale atrocities of the Nazis are a special case in law and morality. Yes, there are war crimes out there just as bad and worse and yes, there are higher-ups with more responsibility than this man.

But those are not the facts of this case - this about a single individual who was part of crimes that we don't want to forget and there is value in sending the unambiguous message that justice will catch up with you eventually if you're part of such a depraved system, no matter how long it takes.

Now, I'm only talking about the trial - the punishment should definitely be tailored to this particular case and the man's health and age are a factor there. Which I think is a reasonable expectation in this case.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Did you read the post above yours? Fuck this guy. I don't care what he did after the war, or how much "remorse" he felt, or any of that shit. He was there, he knew what was happening, and he was pretty much ok with it.

So, he must be condemned because he didn't do something about it?

The Holocaust wouldn't have happened without men like him 'just following orders'. Society decided that's not a valid excuse.

You do know soldiers don't get convicted the way regular civilians are, right? The whole "just following orders" is a valid excuse, or "defending the homeland."

 

[Nabbis]

The Holocaust wouldn't have happened without men like him 'just following orders'. Society decided that's not a valid excuse.

Same shit is happening to this day. I would be a little more invigorated by this justice crusade against 94 year old men if countries did the same thing toward their own modern atrocities. This is just a circus, nothing more.

 

[Neverfade]

Genuinely curious (as I don't know): what typically happened to nazi soliders who stood up against holocaust atrocities?

 

[Megalosaro]

The Holocaust wouldn't have happened without men like him 'just following orders'. Society decided that's not a valid excuse.

The UN has determined it is a valid excuse though. Check out the Reconciliation policies it has.