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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I knew what that link was before I even clicked on it. Classic.
IrishNinja
Member
okay so here it is: there's a long table/shelf unit with most of the consoles, right? plasma TV up top, XRGB below it on the upmost shelf, and all the SCARTs are right next to that.
to the left, you've a small bookshelf. top of that is the receiver, than the PVM...if you could extend the BNC/SCART cable adapter, you could have it reach the middle of said table so it'd be easy to just change out either device on the fly, rather than say, reach behind the ghost in the shell like lovecraftian nightmare of cables that is the back area everytime you wanna switch out the system for said PVM. dig it? that's all i wanna do, keep my options/cables right in the same pile more or less; was hoping to use the female/female adapter i just bought to toss another SCART onto it, to serve as an extender of sorts & hopefully not diminish the quality too much...thinking i'll try this AES cable i have laying around, again also from retro_console so it should be legit/the right kind.
curious...oddly, i think i noticed last time that the red/whites i have coming from the BNC/SCART cable into my receiver were only putting out mono, for some reason? either way, i guess i could just split that cable and feed it back to said PVM and be done with it, in theory.
They are a bit more durable, but they are also much simpler in design.
Consumer sets do have much more logic (prone to error so to speak).
Well, I don't think it is an intentional effect unless one wants to mimic
some old-school effects. On a more technical level; it looks like a bad
filter (choice) having a non-linear phase around the higher frequencies. On
transient color changes (high frequency color) the filter delays (known as
group delay) the many frequency components of the color transient differently
leading to those colored edges on the examples given, i.e. some frequency
components of the color signal will be delayed differently.
For example, within the yellow region (hair) there is a slight change in color
to dark yellow (an edge). The frequency of the color signal in this region is
very low and the chosen filter within that frequency range seem to have good
linear phase resp. constant group delay, delaying all frequency components
within that range equally. The delay seems to be short, less than a pixel,
no artificial colored edges, contrary to the higher color frequencies around
the hair's silhouette where we have about 2 pixels delay at least.
How to get rid of it? Either choose a better filter with a linear phase
(within a given region of interest) and short group delay, or damp down the
higher frequencies of color beforehand (color filtering, reducing color
detail). Basically, if you desaturate all the colors a bit, the picture will
contain less high frequency color. Now look at the pictures again esp. at
those having (almost) non artificial colored edges and look at the color's
saturation level. They are reduced.
Insert 2¢ for making another guess...
Thanks for the shots, Timu. That's interesting you don't see the colour fringing. Using the HDMI that came with the WiiU?
Great input, missile! Your knowledge is amazing. Is choosing a better filter an option? I'll try reducing the saturation and see what results that bring but I feel that it's the WiiU when in Wii/HomebrewGC mode that's introducing it since WiiU games don't exhibit the symptom.
Well, I don't think it is an intentional effect unless one wants to mimic
some old-school effects. On a more technical level; it looks like a bad
filter (choice) having a non-linear phase around the higher frequencies. On
transient color changes (high frequency color) the filter delays (known as
group delay) the many frequency components of the color transient differently
leading to those colored edges on the examples given, i.e. some frequency
components of the color signal will be delayed differently.
For example, within the yellow region (hair) there is a slight change in color
to dark yellow (an edge). The frequency of the color signal in this region is
very low and the chosen filter within that frequency range seem to have good
linear phase resp. constant group delay, delaying all frequency components
within that range equally. The delay seems to be short, less than a pixel,
no artificial colored edges, contrary to the higher color frequencies around
the hair's silhouette where we have about 2 pixels delay at least.
How to get rid of it? Either choose a better filter with a linear phase
(within a given region of interest) and short group delay, or damp down the
higher frequencies of color beforehand (color filtering, reducing color
detail). Basically, if you desaturate all the colors a bit, the picture will
contain less high frequency color. Now look at the pictures again esp. at
those having (almost) non artificial colored edges and look at the color's
saturation level. They are reduced.
Insert 2¢ for making another guess...
Hmm... I'm assuming this is a filter applied at the source? That doesn't sound like some thing we have control over. That sucks. But it also doesn't seem like something that would change in the Wii so Interestingly enough the WiiU does seem to have brighter colors in the capture...
Ok I understand better what you're trying to do. But why not extend the BNC instead of the Scart? It would put your Scart/BNC converter wherever you want it. I believe BNC cables would be much less subject to interferences than Scart cables too.
However a more interesting solution would use a Scart splitter next to your Switch box. You could select your output at the flick of a switch instead of having to plug the correct cable every time (This is bad, Scart sockets tend to break easily.) Something like this:
PVM --- BNC/Scart adapter --- long Scart cable ---------- Scart output switch --- Scart input switch --- multiple consoles
Big ass LCD --- HDMI cable --- XRGB --- Scart cable --/
You can also add a small Scart/RCA adapter between the switches to extract sound to put it back into the PVM and an amplifier, if your input switch doesn't do it already.
I believe any dumb switch can work as a splitter, the intelligent ones with automatic switching like the Bandridge will mess stuff up.
IrishNinja
Member
huh...never thought of extending those, where can i get such a cable? that might work!
as far as switches go, ive thought about it but ive got something like 10 SCART RGB cables going, and if said switch is powered, i'm completely out of AC slots...nevermind the cost. if i saw a really good deal on one that'd work for me/not diminish the quality i'd consider it though!
ah shit, really? and here i am switching them out alla time...hope im not bending too many pins drunkenly doing this!
as far as switches go, ive thought about it but ive got something like 10 SCART RGB cables going, and if said switch is powered, i'm completely out of AC slots...nevermind the cost. if i saw a really good deal on one that'd work for me/not diminish the quality i'd consider it though!
ah shit, really? and here i am switching them out alla time...hope im not bending too many pins drunkenly doing this!
D.Lo
Member
Yeah I think that's a myth if you're careful.
I've been swapping scart cables in and out for 15 years and have never broken a cable.
Dunnymeister
Member
Thanks, still seems odd to me that there's two from the same seller but if there's no known issues with either then I might as well choose the cheaper one!
Yes, the gray HDMI cable that came with the console.
I will try to get to those games soon.
A completely passive switch like this one should work. Powered switches only work one way afaik.
It's not the cable that breaks, it's the socket. Cables are easy to change, less so the socket on your TV/device. Plugging Scart cable puts tension on the soldering points between the board and the socket, and after some time they tend to break. It's easy to repair as you just need to resolder them, but on a TV it can be a great endeavour. The first hint something is wrong with your Scart is when you have to hold it up or in a special position to have a picture or every colours on it. I have broken (then repaired, then threw away) several dumb switches like the one pictured because I kept switching cables without caring. It's a common disease for Scart receivers.
D.Lo
Member
Might just be the angles on the plugs on TVs. Which is also why I've broken an HDMI port, the cables stick out and bend down on the plug since it is plugged in at 90 degrees.
I've never had a TV with scart (Australia didn't do scart), but I used a scart to Component converter since something like 2000, and Framemesiter the last couple of years, and I plug and unplug constantly and have never had anything break.
Speaking of switches, I bought this because it had good reviews: http://www.amazon.es/dp/B000KPW6RK/
But when I plugged in my RGB for SNES and MegaDrive the output had like a duplicate image to the left, I tired several SCART cables but I have the same problem with all of them, I ordered a replacement yesterday, but I'm not sure it's the switch what is causing the problem, can the TV cause this? (with the console plugged directly to the RGB SCART input the image looks perfect).
But when I plugged in my RGB for SNES and MegaDrive the output had like a duplicate image to the left, I tired several SCART cables but I have the same problem with all of them, I ordered a replacement yesterday, but I'm not sure it's the switch what is causing the problem, can the TV cause this? (with the console plugged directly to the RGB SCART input the image looks perfect).
NormalFish
Banned
Lmao
Just my 2¢, Mr. Vespa. :+
Depends on where the filtering happens. See televator's comment.
I don't know about the Wii nor the WiiU nor any mode for that matter. So I
don't know where such a filtering happens in this case. Someone needs to track
down the state of the system (which console, which gaming mode, which video
mode, which wire) under which the pictures in question are obtained.
Even if applied at the source, one can try to build a filter that annihilates
the distortion when the system does its job, by manipulating the image
beforehand. Such filters are known as pre-emphesis filters, which means; when
you know the distortion on the receiving end you can try to counteract it on
the transmitting end, ahead of time. That's like with gamma correction. For
example; CRTs do have a gamma of about 2.2 to 2.4. If you know that, then you
can pre-distore the signal on the transmitting end such that when a CRT gets
its signal, the final gamma curve of the entire system is 1. Hence, instead of
given each (consumer) CRT a gamma correcting circuit, which would be quite
expensive, a pre-distortion is made on the transmitting end.
Regarding the filtering effect it can be due to everything like
- an internal conversion/scaling problem,
- a bad filter design (with respect to the problem statement),
- a numerical problem (finite precision), or
- a circuit/wire problem in a given section (impedance mismatch manipulating
an analog filter by changing its characteristics slightly, or introducing a
filtering effect where there shouldn't be one).
Part of my job is working on video filters. I'm currently working on a filter
construction and analysis tool (Retro Spectral Analyzer / RSA) which should
allow one to precisely adjust filters for video. The tool is geared towards
retro gaming.
Here is a very early shot:
original
filtered (experimental)
As you can see, there is delay too. But done on purpose. Part of filter design
is to precisely adjust and control the delay.
I'm sorry but it's really ugly. It's typically the sort of images we work on avoiding in this very thread. We don't like retrogaming because of ugly RF artefacts, we love it in spite of them. Modern devs making "retro games" with ugly filters like this one are completely missing the point. It reminds me of the filters they used in Cuphead to try emulate the look of ancient broadcasts. I still hope such filter will be optional in the end product.
You are obviously passionate about your field of work and I'm sure the product of your efforts is exactly what was asked in your job, but such filter, as exact they are in replicating specific signal distortions, are not what we are after.
Fuzzy filters make me cry (literally, they hurt my eyes).
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I just like scanlines.
NyMartin90
Member
Gaf I require your help,
I just got my bvm 20f1u. It looks good on the menu but when I plug the Sega Gen 2 with scart to the scart/ BnC it constantly moves and makes me regret what I just bought is it something with the cables?
The picture is fine on the menu so I don't think it was damaged in shipping. I really hope I can get some help
via Imgflip GIF Maker
I just got my bvm 20f1u. It looks good on the menu but when I plug the Sega Gen 2 with scart to the scart/ BnC it constantly moves and makes me regret what I just bought is it something with the cables?
The picture is fine on the menu so I don't think it was damaged in shipping. I really hope I can get some help
via Imgflip GIF MakerNyMartin90
Member
is there anyway to plug in composite? I only see bnc.
Oops, check my edited post (find a Ext Sync button on the panel).
As for composite I don't know how it is with BVMs, but on PVMs the composite inputs are always BNC, so you need a BNC to RCA adapter to use them.
NyMartin90
Member
the sync button didn't change it but made the screen brighter.
Couldn't find ext sync in the menu
Also I have for the BnC red, blue, green and black plugged in.
Your avatar makes your posts funnier for some reason. You're just a dude eating a sammich. lol
Just my 2¢, Mr. Vespa. :+
Depends on where the filtering happens. See televator's comment.
I don't know about the Wii nor the WiiU nor any mode for that matter. So I
don't know where such a filtering happens in this case. Someone needs to track
down the state of the system (which console, which gaming mode, which video
mode, which wire) under which the pictures in question are obtained.
Even if applied at the source, one can try to build a filter that annihilates
the distortion when the system does its job, by manipulating the image
beforehand. Such filters are known as pre-emphesis filters, which means; when
you know the distortion on the receiving end you can try to counteract it on
the transmitting end, ahead of time. That's like with gamma correction. For
example; CRTs do have a gamma of about 2.2 to 2.4. If you know that, then you
can pre-distore the signal on the transmitting end such that when a CRT gets
its signal, the final gamma curve of the entire system is 1. Hence, instead of
given each (consumer) CRT a gamma correcting circuit, which would be quite
expensive, a pre-distortion is made on the transmitting end.
Regarding the filtering effect it can be due to everything like
- an internal conversion/scaling problem,
- a bad filter design (with respect to the problem statement),
- a numerical problem (finite precision), or
- a circuit/wire problem in a given section (impedance mismatch manipulating
an analog filter by changing its characteristics slightly, or introducing a
filtering effect where there shouldn't be one).
Part of my job is working on video filters. I'm currently working on a filter
construction and analysis tool (Retro Spectral Analyzer / RSA) which should
allow one to precisely adjust filters for video. The tool is geared towards
retro gaming.
Here is a very early shot:
original
filtered (experimental)
As you can see, there is delay too. But done on purpose. Part of filter design
is to precisely adjust and control the delay.
Fascinating stuff! Though I can't imagine there being some generally accessible way to do this though. Unless we have the kind of tech and software that you appear to have access to. Also sounds like it would have more input lag as a result on top of any scaling solution... Not that I'm the kind of person who puts a lot of emphasis on such a problem. I guess the best way to fix it is to track down what's going on inside the consoles that produce this as you suggest. Too bad I'm not a 10th level badass console moder and hacker.
Is the purpose of the filter you are working simply to be used as an ends or is it really a means to build some sort of correction for it? I think maybe people misunderstood the intent of the application for your work.
theSlacker
Member
Press the "Shift" button before pressing the "Sync" button. I believe you are toggling the other option of that button.
If you are still having problems, or need more help, just ask.
NyMartin90
Member
Thanks for the help everyone, I tried this and it still continues but not as much, the image is still distorted but half of the image comes on.
I'm ordering some bnc to rca plugs.
So this is definitely a sync problem and not a problem with the tv?
Also this is the cable I bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161588265542?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
I notice it isn't sync boosted as this one is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201302374589?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Should I get sync boosted?
Until you try with another device or another cable there's no way to know for sure, but it does definitely look like it's related to sync.
theSlacker
Member
Lets work on a few other things before sending you off to buy more products. Can you take a picture of the back of your monitor to show how everything is plugged in?
Another thing that would show me some details is press the "Menu" button, then scroll down to the "Set Up" option, and from there go to the "Input Configuration" option. Take a picture of the info on that screen.
NyMartin90
Member
For some reason its not turning on and it flashes on overload now. I've heard I have to remove one of the boards.
As for the menu screen, before I know it said RGB, and EXT for sync
theSlacker
Member
That is out of my pay grade for sure. Best I can offer there is just googling around to try to find help.
As for the sync issues there are a number of things that could be causing it, that makes it hard to tell you what you should do. It could be your rgb cable, it could be the SCART>BNC cable, or it could even be the monitor itself. I'm sorry about your luck. :c
Only other thing I can recommend is if you are able to turn on your set again to just let it run for like 15 minutes. One of the units I have doesn't sync at all for a bit after I turn it on, but then works fine. Really not ideal, and it is better if the problem is in a cable, but still a possibility. Sorry friend.
Huggers
Member
BVMs often lack the right decoder to accept Composite out of the box. Mine doesn't take it. You have to buy a different bkm board for the back.
As for that chaps new screen. I'd be very surprised if there was anything wrong with the screen itself. Can you take a picture of the menu screen after you've selected 'setup'. Also post links to the exact Genesis scart rgb cable and bnc to scart breakout cable you are using
GayForMaster
Banned
Maybe this can help a few people. I realized that with the GBP if you're running swiss homebrew to force 240p, there seems to be a difference if you also activate progressive when the GBP launches. It still runs at 240p after, but the colours become a lot more rich, and the pixels look less blurry. With the Degauss + Enter combination to activate the secret menu I was also able to fill the screen while the GBP was set to "Screen Size Normal" and "Screen Filter Sharp"
No quality reduction at all after doing that and it now fills up my whole screen (except for the black bars on the top and bottom). I guess it'd look even better without the scanlines since gba didn't have them but there's nothing I can really do about that... not that I care anyway! This looks amazing...! I wish I knew about the H-Size and V-Size options on my pvm long ago. I may even try it with my psp as well. I hope that helps anyone trying to achieve amazing visuals. I think I'll start playing my gba library finally since I've achieved this.
I have a question as well for anyone using Swiss homebrew on their GCN. Did anyone ever get a GBP iso to run without giving a "patch failed" message? The only reason I wish for this is because it'll get pretty tedious having to disc swap everytime I want to play. I think it'd be 1000 times more convenient to just run it off my SD. If anyone actually has that working I'd appreciate it if you can help!
Here are some pics. Keep in mind that I'm using a Windows Phone with a terrible camera, and taking pictures of a CRT is never an accurate representation of what it looks like in the flesh.
No quality reduction at all after doing that and it now fills up my whole screen (except for the black bars on the top and bottom). I guess it'd look even better without the scanlines since gba didn't have them but there's nothing I can really do about that... not that I care anyway! This looks amazing...! I wish I knew about the H-Size and V-Size options on my pvm long ago. I may even try it with my psp as well. I hope that helps anyone trying to achieve amazing visuals. I think I'll start playing my gba library finally since I've achieved this.
I have a question as well for anyone using Swiss homebrew on their GCN. Did anyone ever get a GBP iso to run without giving a "patch failed" message? The only reason I wish for this is because it'll get pretty tedious having to disc swap everytime I want to play. I think it'd be 1000 times more convenient to just run it off my SD. If anyone actually has that working I'd appreciate it if you can help!
Here are some pics. Keep in mind that I'm using a Windows Phone with a terrible camera, and taking pictures of a CRT is never an accurate representation of what it looks like in the flesh.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If you have the means to alter the cable, consider using composite sync instead of composite video for the sync signal.
GayForMaster
Banned
Sony PVM 20L5. If you don't mind me asking... Insane? Is that a good or bad thing?
I use a Guncon on my PS1 all the time, works a charm.
Thanks!
How is it hooked up? Will it work even if the pvm is set to rgb?
Do i use an rca adapter to bnc and connect the guncon to sync?
Good thing in this context. I like them thick.
GayForMaster
Banned
Well, there was no question asked about to like or dislike the pictures resp.
the filter. The pictures were just used to illustrate a point I was making
within the context of the post, i.e. to show/detect a possible fault and to
reason about how to fix it, which is "... typically the sort of [things] [...]
we work on [...] in this very thread. ...".
Whether you like ancient broadcasts effects, scanlines, or indie devs making
ugly filters or not is pretty much a subjective matter and an entire different
point left open for discussion in another thread.
The filter I've shown doesn't represent any production value nor any final
result whatsoever. However, there are also many people who like many of the
analog faults, deficiencies, and errors in modern games. It has to fit the
game, context etc. For sure, done in the wrong way and it looks "ugly" even
for those who actually like similar effects. No question about it. But this is
part of game design, i.e. of bringing the art across which is supposed to set
a certain ambient, mood etc., and which depends on the subject of the game
itself. But this doesn't say you have to like the game at all, even if
everything is perfect "filterwise", of course.
I want to give an example. Let's have a look on (well, ordered-) dithering.
Dithering grew out of system limitations in not being able to represent
continuous tone. With dithering it became possible to smooth out the
quantization levels. (In this regard dithering is nothing more than a low-pass
filter.) Different patterns evolved (system depended at times) to get the job
done successfully. And it served a great deal in history (even today from a
technical point if view). But with today's 24 bit color spaces there seems to
be no use for dithering any longer regarding video games. However, some
indie devs use such techniques as an art form to create a certain specific
atmosphere for their games. And this way of using such old techniques today
has become an art in itself entirely independent of the former system
limitations they grew out from.
Many people don't like dithering if they can have virtually continuous tone
all over the place. But using it in the right places within (for example) a
game can change a game's entire atmosphere. But now "you" can be a person
who will never like dithering no matter what, because "you" grew up in a time
where 24 bit color depth were the holy grail looming at the horizon forever.
Well, I don't know. Same is true for analog video distortions whatsoever. New
generations (the younger ones) which have never seen a CRT TV and all their
(broadcasting) issues etc. will have a different look on such analog failures
resp. old techniques as many of the old farts will ever have.
There is some intrinsic value in techniques which grew out of hard system
limitations, a value which remains and which becomes independent of what
gave birth to it in the first place. For example, analog techniques have a
certain breath which go beyond what the digital world has to offer. One such
things is how analog systems fail. There is much more dynamic in there worth
considering to be used for video games etc.
This doesn't mean you have to like games etc. which use such things. You are
free to go along your way. But others do, other do like it to death, do like
scanlines, do like dithering, do like video.... It's an entire subjective
matter, and I think not worth considering in here the way you did on a picture
that was used to illustrate quite a technical point. No offense taken, man. Am
just saying.
I only use RGB, and yeh it works. I just connect the Guncon to the Guncon RCA input on the RGB cable. I can't quite picture what you're describing but I just do it the same way I always did on my old CRT with composite (different video cable now though).
We're near the bottom of the one hundred and fifty-first page of a thread dedicated to get the best image of old consoles, advertising for using RGB whenever possible, quality upscalers and professional CRTs, and subtitled Retro gaming done right. Different strokes for different folks, I get it, but quite a few people like their games fresh like they were supposed to be instead of filled with interferences due to the limitations of some lower-end hardware. I certainly don't think I'm in the minority here, and devs thinking they have to add filters like these to attract the retro crowd are certainly, I insist, deluded. And Nintendo, with the same mindset, gives me my Virtual Console games in good old 50Hz like I used to play them, the fools. The least they could do is making all of it optional.
I grew up in a country where RGB Scart on consoles (and everywhere else, VHS, DVD, etc.) was the norm. Even in 1986 there was no compression/broadcasting artefacts in my games. I was a SEGA kid and I couldn't play or stare at my friend's Playstation, which only shipped with composite and a Scart adapter somehow. I didn't know at the time what was wrong, I just knew the picture quality was terrible on this console. It made me like my Saturn more.
Again, I'm not criticising any of your work, being able to create such filters and making them as exact as the can be demands talent and a lot of knowledge of ancient hardware, like you have shown time and time again. I just think it's a bit pointless.
Sorry, rant over. Please carry on.
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