Ah fuck it, just splashed on a set including another Xbox, official SCART cable and some grunty looking component cable, lol.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Ah fuck it, just splashed on a set including another Xbox, official SCART cable and some grunty looking component cable, lol.
In so far that I want my games to look their best and anything that affects image quality, no matter how obscure, keeps my mind busy. Haha
Of course there is alway issues. Console manufactures are looking to cut costs, which means things aren't always ideal. Same thing applies to audio for me.
I wish digital audio mods were more common and not buried in obscurity.
I'm all-in for doing so, i.e. in getting the most undisturbed picture out of
any console. No question. Yet I also like to have a more differentiated look
on the topic with respect to 'Retro gaming done right' in getting the most
faithful reproduction out of any console game on modern displays.
Well, you have to know that many of the old games were built with some of the
distortions in mind right at the drawing board (for the target audience
playing on simple TVs with consoles having cheap components). That is to say,
many of the artists of old drew their games with a given filter right before
their eyes (due to the system limitations back then) since there weren't all
these digital pixel perfect displays etc. out there like we have today. And
that's what you're going to miss on many games when displaying the RGB values
straight, which is ok if this is what you want. No problem, no problem with
people who want to see sharp pixels with fully saturated colors.
Which brings us to the next point.
There is some truth in what you're saying. The main issue is that many of
today's supposed to be retro games are build under pixel perfect conditions,
i.e. on a high-res RGB display with no distortion at all. That means all the
graphics, color etc. are all done with respect to such a display. Now if one
applies some 'supposed to be retro filters' afterwards to simulate some signal
distortion etc., then it should be clear that the result of ones graphics
won't be the same as if one had designed all the graphics with the filters
active right from the start.
It makes a difference if you draw a graphics first and apply some distortion
filters afterwards than choosing a given filter set first and draw the
graphics afterwards, i.e. with the filters permanently applied while drawing.
Using the latter method would possibly result in much more unique (modern)
retro games (graphics-wise) where the distortions are weaved straight into
the game.
A tool is needed to construct and adjust the distortion filters for ones
game (beforehand). Those filter would then overlay the drawing canvas and
the artist would start drawing all his/her graphics under the influence of
such filters. That's similar to modern pixel-art where the resolution is
fixed. A similar thing holds true for scanlines. It makes a difference if you
put scanlines into your (modern) game afterwards or have them applied
continuously while drawing the game.
I never supposed you did. I just try to shed some light on things which might
be of interest to some retro gamers.
Bog
Junior Ace
I get more (or fewer) of them displaying after messing with the sync settings, and they seem to lead to signal drops when I'm playing.
If I was to get an upgraded Genesis cable, do I want a raw sync but boosted cable, or a non-boosted C-sync? They seem to be the only ones available.
Forget about the gray test I've mentioned. You are using c-sync, hence, no
luma coupling.
Since you get the problem on many different connections, the fault could, as
you have suggest, also be within the Framemeister. Out of thin air; the FM may
use a regulated amplifier to control the voltage level of the incoming sync
signal. If the regulating loop or the amplifying part is off from its proper
operation point, then this could also explain some of your problems. I don't
know. Just an idea.
Bog
Junior Ace
I don't believe my cable is CSync. It's about 2 years old from r_c_a on eBay and had no mention of boosting or CSync in the auction title.
lilralphie
Member
I've just purchased a Framemeister x-rgb mini. I plan to hook up NTSC systems via RGB SCART with cables purchased from retro_console_accessories. Would it be a good idea to get the SCART to XRGB mini 8 pin that has the stripper built in or not? I think I will be using both CSYNC and sync on luma eventually (for SNES and N64)
Thanks!
Basically, should I get this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161621505666
Or this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-X...744?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ede0fb820
Thanks!
Basically, should I get this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161621505666
Or this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-X...744?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ede0fb820
Bog
Junior Ace
Why even bother when she sells JP-21 cables?
lilralphie
Member
Thanks again baphomet. Really helpful!
Bog
Junior Ace
Just asking... I really don't know much about this stuff.
sixteen-bit
Member
RGB from old consoles is analog. Some consoles output it natively, but others you'll need to mod to get it out of them.
i see. so it is an analog signal even if the console was modded to get it out of it?
baphomet
Member
Rgb is always analog. Unless youre getting DVI or HDMI out of it, its analog.
Superblatt
Member
Hey bapho -- any recommendations on a 4-5 port SCART switch? The bandridge is sold out everywhere.
theSlacker
Member
Sorry I missed your post. I would recommend you buying a cable for one of the other systems that you are planning on using through RGB and if it also doesn't work then look into exchanging your SCART>RGB adapter. Retro_console_accessories is back from her vacation so can get stuff from her again, but she doesn't seem to have any of her PS1 cables listed. It can be hard to pick out a SNES RGB cable since I think that is the system that getting the highest priced one (csync with the optional upgrade applied to it as well) is reportedly the best option for, but I don't know that for sure.
As for the SCART>RGB converter the one people seem to recommend is this one. It may even be the one you already have. I have seen people report having problems with it, but from what I remember the seller replaced it for them if that was the case.
If you want any other recommendations for cables or advice, still feel free to ask.
Afaik, it depends more on the type of mod. For example, the typical NES RGB mod is analogue since it's made to work with the scart format. The Hi-Def NES mod will get you what I believe is digital RGB since it's meant to be a digital to digital transmission from source to display via HDMI. HDMI can carry both PC standard RGB and YCBCR which is the digital equivalent of YPBPR over component.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Pretty much everything in the console is digital until it gets passed through a DAC (digital-analog converter, which kind of explicitly spells out what's happening there).
And every pre-DVI video format is analog, so if the output is RF, composite, s-video, component, SCART, or VGA, then there's a DAC in play somewhere and the output is analog.
And every pre-DVI video format is analog, so if the output is RF, composite, s-video, component, SCART, or VGA, then there's a DAC in play somewhere and the output is analog.
Right. Video data exists digitally in system memory so analogue output is inherently a conversion.
Getting everything in digital form from every console would be the greatest thing as you remove an extra step that loses quality.
Huggers
Member
B&Os are pretty nice man. Very nice aesthetically
I have a very strange problem with my SCART switch, I have the Hama 100S, recommended here: http://retrorgb.com/scartswitches.html
I have a PAL SNES and a PAL MegaDrive with their RGB cables, both of them connected directly through the TV output a fantastic RGB signal, no problems here.
The strange thing is, when I connect them to the TV via the HAMA switch I get like a bit of ghosting to the right of the image in both consoles ( I tried about ten SCART cables between the switch out port and the RGB input of my TV and it's always the same exact problem), BUT (and here comes the problem I don't understand) this only happens if one of the consoles is powered off, if both are on the ghosting dissapears and I get a crystal clear RGB image on the TV, what the hell is going on?
I have a PAL SNES and a PAL MegaDrive with their RGB cables, both of them connected directly through the TV output a fantastic RGB signal, no problems here.
The strange thing is, when I connect them to the TV via the HAMA switch I get like a bit of ghosting to the right of the image in both consoles ( I tried about ten SCART cables between the switch out port and the RGB input of my TV and it's always the same exact problem), BUT (and here comes the problem I don't understand) this only happens if one of the consoles is powered off, if both are on the ghosting dissapears and I get a crystal clear RGB image on the TV, what the hell is going on?
Alright. I will go check it out. So I will just use the SCART cables that came with my Dreamcast, Gamecube etc.? But how do I connect these multiple cables when the TV only have one port for SCART?
[edit] Oh, they just sent me some pictures of the back of the TV. Is this good enough?
[edit] Oh, they just sent me some pictures of the back of the TV. Is this good enough?
Why, but with a Scart switch of course!
Be careful with TVs with multiple Scart inputs: most of the times only the first few ones accept RGB while the last one only takes Composite. When in doubt or without the manual, stick to AV1.
theSlacker
Member
20" is nice, but I would still kill a person for an xm29.
The main reason why I think people stick with 20" units, beyond not wanting to break their backs, is because the best versions of the PVM and BVM line are 20".
Thank you, I'll look into it. I think she don't have a manual.
What is PVM and BVM?
[edit] I also need something, so I can hang the TV on the wall. Is there like an universal arm which can hold 20" televisions?
theSlacker
Member
They are two different lines of "Professional" and "Broadcast" video monitors from Sony, that are some of the few, and best, options to get RGB in America, where the RGB standard never really existed for consumers.
Sorry, I can't really help you with your question about mounting CRTs. The ones I have are far too heavy for me to ever look into that option.
I can't imagine I'd ever feel comfortable with mounting a 20" CRT. Walls cost too much to replace.
Alright, so I'm trying to play some PS2 classics on my PS3, since they were only 5 bucks, nice!
But, they look terrible! Back in college I used to hook my PS3 up using YRW when playing PS1 games, but alas, my current TV lacks those connections.
What would be the recommended way of fixing the PS3's terrible video output for older, Non-HD, games?
QUICK EDIT:
TV only supports HDMI and RGB.
But, they look terrible! Back in college I used to hook my PS3 up using YRW when playing PS1 games, but alas, my current TV lacks those connections.
What would be the recommended way of fixing the PS3's terrible video output for older, Non-HD, games?
QUICK EDIT:
TV only supports HDMI and RGB.
Well, I tried another switch and the problem remains, ghosting if one console is powered ON, and it dissapears if both are ON, so it's not the HAMA switch causing the signal problem, but I don't understand why it works well if everything is powered ON...
Anyone has experienced something similar?
I'm going to try with another RGB cables, What are the best PAL RGB cables out there?
I don't really have a problem with the way my PS3 plays PS2 classics, and I'm a pretty big stickler for that sort of thing. PS1 games on the other hand.... yuck, those look all sorts of wrong on PS3.
What exactly do you not like about the way PS3 plays PS2 games?
NormalFish
Banned
FM is amazing for PSX games. for 480p it's not the best, but it's still quite good.
Running it on my 1080p desktop monitor and it looks brilliant, however scanlines don't work correctly when upscaling to 1080p so you need to upscale to 720p. The lack in clarity is not significant.
It's amazing with almost all 240p content... 480i and higher is a bit of a mixed bag though.
PS1 is exceptionally gorgeous through it.
Guys I need your help / opinion. I'm in PAL land.
I just got myself an HD CRT that can go up to 1080i. I tried the Wii with a new component cable on it and it seems good, at least it lets me play No more heroes in colour without resorting to Composite.
But then I used the 240p test suite on it. And I'm a bit disappointed in what I saw. Basically it deintrelaces everything. I've been warned it doesn't display 240p properly (it upscale it to 480i then deintrelaces it) but I thought at least 480i would be good. But nope, it deintrelaces it. Using 480p with scanlines, everything behaves properly. Using RGB via Scart doesn't change anything.
Now, I wanted to use this screen with the Wii/GC, Xbox and PS2, and later generation consoles eventually. Using it for the Wii should be good as most (all?) games have a progressive scan option. But what about the others? I still have my original widescreen normal res CRT that I was about to throw away, and a 4/3 CRT. I'm a bit upset now to be honest.
I just got myself an HD CRT that can go up to 1080i. I tried the Wii with a new component cable on it and it seems good, at least it lets me play No more heroes in colour without resorting to Composite.
But then I used the 240p test suite on it. And I'm a bit disappointed in what I saw. Basically it deintrelaces everything. I've been warned it doesn't display 240p properly (it upscale it to 480i then deintrelaces it) but I thought at least 480i would be good. But nope, it deintrelaces it. Using 480p with scanlines, everything behaves properly. Using RGB via Scart doesn't change anything.
Now, I wanted to use this screen with the Wii/GC, Xbox and PS2, and later generation consoles eventually. Using it for the Wii should be good as most (all?) games have a progressive scan option. But what about the others? I still have my original widescreen normal res CRT that I was about to throw away, and a 4/3 CRT. I'm a bit upset now to be honest.
BONKERS
Member
This is like, the opposite of how I feel. PS2 games via the software emulation or hardware based, all look like ass unless you are playing at 480i on a CRT.
PS1 games only look bad when on a crt, because of 480i only.
Maybe it's because I only have one PS2 classic? Katamari Damacy.
BONKERS, is it that you simply don't like the way 480i PS2 games look when upscaled to 1080p, or is it that you think the upscale is being done improperly by the PS3? I suspect it's the former... which I can certainly understand.
But I cannot find any actual flaws in the upscale other than the lack of visual noise that is typical of an interlaced image. However, that's something I don't miss.
If you can get the game to run in progressive scan 480p or higher natively wether on PS2 hardware or in software emu, PS2 games actually look damn beautiful underneath all the jaggies and dithering.
So yeah, interlacing sucks.
What the PS3 does for interlaced games is a de interlacing process. It does not run them in pro scan natively. The end result is not a pretty picture. It's not much better a job than what an HDTV might do on its own.
Dunnymeister
Member
I bought a GC D-Terminal Cable to go with my Framemeister! I opted for buying new off Amazon because the few second hand ones available all reported some kind of damage or imperfection when I enquired about the quality. I mean, what the hell is a sunburnt cable?
Anyway, so it arrived today! I'm questing whether or not it was really new though, because it didn't come with any paperwork inside the box (none of the usual health and safety warnings, club nintendo etc). Has anyone else bought these cables and can you let me know if this is normal?
I don't mind buying second hand, but given the price on these I'm gonna feel a bit cheated if they were secondhand sold as new.
Anyway, so it arrived today! I'm questing whether or not it was really new though, because it didn't come with any paperwork inside the box (none of the usual health and safety warnings, club nintendo etc). Has anyone else bought these cables and can you let me know if this is normal?
I don't mind buying second hand, but given the price on these I'm gonna feel a bit cheated if they were secondhand sold as new.
That's not what I was hoping to hear... :/ What exactly are it's shortfalls?
Lynd7
Member
Thinking about getting an XRGB Mini at some point, mostly for my modded N64.
Is this the only cable I'll need to plug into the mini? Seems so, just double checking. There's another version with a sync.
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/european-scart-to-framemeister-xrgb-mini-converter-for-sale.html
Thanks.
Is this the only cable I'll need to plug into the mini? Seems so, just double checking. There's another version with a sync.
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/european-scart-to-framemeister-xrgb-mini-converter-for-sale.html
Thanks.
lilralphie
Member
Yes that will work. Many people buy from the ebay seller retro_console_accessories as all her cables are very high quality:
http://m.ebay.com/itm/201294067744?_mwBanner=1
She sells the SCART cable you'll want to use with your n64 too and combines shipping.
Very blurry, even with scaling turned off.
Thankfully, I managed to find a Sony component cable at the local game store. Overpriced; $15 for a used cable, but oh well....
Then I found out my TV DOES support YRW, you just plug yellow into green and change a mode on the TV that's kinda hidden, and not really mentioned in the instructions properly. Great.
Oh well, the picture looks great at least! It's much sharper now!
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