There's nothing yuck about a PAL Gamecube.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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There's nothing yuck about a PAL Gamecube.
Yep, though it's costly just to get the dsub cable.
NormalFish
Banned
What downside to pal cubes is there?
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
So, I'm looking to buy a PS1 SCART cable. I need something that I can plug into my XRGB. I was gonna get this: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...on-1-2-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-lead-rca-sound
but I don't know what Sync option I should choose. What's going to give me the best video quality?
but I don't know what Sync option I should choose. What's going to give me the best video quality?
NormalFish
Banned
You want Luma sync for PS1/PS2
**That CSync cable is a new option. I have heard mixed reviews for using a sync stripper with the PS1, but it might be slightly better.
D.Lo
Member
I think you mean d-terminal, which is just component. Completely different from dsub.
PAL Gamecube with digital out port is the most capable model of all. RGB, component, and with either a swap disc or a mod chip is the only Cube that can play every game correctly and do every video type.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Hmm...
This shit's confusing. I should've been paying attention to all the RGB talk these last couple of years.
NormalFish
Banned
lol. The PS1/2 doesn't normally output csync. Therefore, your options are to use composite video as sync, luma as sync, or one of the previously mentioned options with a sync strike/stripper/whatever to isolate the sync signal.
In theory, the cleanest signal will be luma for sync with a sync stripper. In practical application, a vanilla luma for sync cable is perfectly serviceable, and unless you need csync (some CRT monitors require this afaik) there isn't a huge difference.
Basically it comes down to this:
- Don't get composite video for sync. You'll get a checkerboard.
- If you need csync (composite sync, not to be confused with composite video for sync) for your set up, a luma sync cable with a method of separating that sync signal is what you want.
- In all other cases, a luma sync cable is the easiest and most practical option.
I have a luma sync cable from them. I get a bit of noise, but it's absolutely manageable. Worth the buy, I'd say, since there isn't a good alternative that isn't quite expensive or a hassle (getting one made custom).
Yep just like everywhere else we had digital out in the first units. I've actually never found one without it in the wild, though I know they exist.
What do you mean by component wasn't available?
PAL games don't do progressive scan but a PAL GC can do progressive scan with enabled (NTSC) games (using a Freeloader or chip to get around region lock for example).
D.Lo
Member
Component has nothing to do with progressive scan. One's a type of colour output, the other is a display mode. It's just that component is arbitrarily required by many monitors to enable progressive scan. You can still use component for 240p/480i and have a vastly better colour separation than composite or svideo.
PAL Gamecubes have the digital out and are fully capable of 480p. It was the software that disabled it. I was playing my PAL Gamecube using component cables (direct from Nintendo AU for AU$50 heh) in 2002.
I haven't found a PAL game apart from Wave Race and Luigi that I can't force to 480p using swiss
I haven't found a PAL game apart from Wave Race and Luigi that I can't force to 480p using swiss
Yeh, I didn't even want to get into explaining that part, haha...
BONKERS
Member
Ah, see. But Clone consoles are just as bad if not WORSE a minefield to navigate. Because they almost all unilaterally have worse quality video and audio output compared to the originals. And that's just output, not considering the actual output within the system too.
But hey, there are solutions for almost all of your problems these days.
There is a complete replacement for the ZIF in the NES that, when used with properly cleaned cartridges is far superior to the original ZIF https://www.arcadeworks.net/blw (They are still at the tail end of sending out kickstarter units so it will be a little bit before can order from the site)
There is also the Toploader, which can be modded below.
For the NES video output too, there is the NESRGB, which you can get your choice of Composite,S-Video,RGB or Component (With an additional board) out of. With a palette switch too.
Can't mod it yourself? There are plenty of people willing to do it if you look around probably.
There is also the upcomming NES HDMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R5PZQ78NJ0
Fixing a yellowed console? Easy peasy.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=899984
For the Genesis and SNES, even if you don't have the best unit for video quality. They will always be better than clones. I've yet to see a clone output RGB.
As for sound with the Genesis, >
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...-good-Genesis-1s-and-Genesis-2s-from-bad-ones
http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/2...f-genesis-md-audio-across-hardware-revisions/
Friend of Sonic
Member
Hey, Japan GAF. Do I have to wotry about claiming my game purchases from Japan at customs when I'm going back to America?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I think that only applies if you intend to resell.
Thanks, this is good to know. I fired up the Genesis and noticed the screen fill was different. I guess it's best to strike a balance unless one wants to fiddle with settings each time.
Who is recommended for NESRGB mod of AV Famicom?
Friend of Sonic
Member
So, I would inform them they are personal belongings and it should be fine?
Also, will customs let me bring in a brand new Xbox One? Bringing it for my friend in Japan
Also, will customs let me bring in a brand new Xbox One? Bringing it for my friend in Japan
lol, just speaking for myself here (Other can feel free to chime in) but the few effects that are gained by destroying image quality (reducing dithering, creating more shades) is NOT worth it in comparison to the image quality gained with RGB. Sure, devs used the shitty signal to their advantage here and there, but again still not worth the downsides. Not to mention, other countries did have RGB, just not America. Your whole post is weird, and oddly aggressive. Get a good attitude buddy.
A Gaffer named Baphomet.
Thanks, I was looking for other names because I could have sworn I PM'd him early this week but had not heard back. Turns out I never sent the request. Silly.
Hey guys, hope I can use some of your knowledge to ask a cheeky question.
Someone near me is selling a Bang & Olufson MX7000 (SW 3.1) for a reasonable price. Would this work correctly with a Super Famicom? Currently I have a small CRT that only outputs the picture in B&W whicheans it probably just can't handle the signal.
I can't find a conclusive answer online. Cheers for any help anyone might be able to give.
Someone near me is selling a Bang & Olufson MX7000 (SW 3.1) for a reasonable price. Would this work correctly with a Super Famicom? Currently I have a small CRT that only outputs the picture in B&W whicheans it probably just can't handle the signal.
I can't find a conclusive answer online. Cheers for any help anyone might be able to give.
The black and white picture means that your PAL display can't decode an NTSC signal via Composite. Don't you have a Scart socket on your TV?
You want to find the user manual for the B&O. Check that it has a Scart socket and that it does NTSC via Composite. It wont do NTSC via RF so don't worry about that.
Get a Scart cable for your super famicom, stop worrying about colour encoding incompatibilities and enjoy the superior image quality.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Repeat after me: "I have nothing to declare."
Component has nothing to do with progressive scan. One's a type of colour output, the other is a display mode. It's just that component is arbitrarily required by many monitors to enable progressive scan. You can still use component for 240p/480i and have a vastly better colour separation than composite or svideo.
PAL Gamecubes have the digital out and are fully capable of 480p. It was the software that disabled it. I was playing my PAL Gamecube using component cables (direct from Nintendo AU for AU$50 heh) in 2002.
I haven't found a PAL game apart from Wave Race and Luigi that I can't force to 480p using swiss
good to see that's how it was. i just assumed they had yanked the digital out since analog could do RGB already and it was very close to component in quality (unlike NTSC which gets the crappy cables only without component)
Friend of Sonic
Member
I have... *looks at screen* nothing to declare.
I was guessing this was routine for people who do Japan trips. Can I really get away with up to two pieces of luggage filled with games?
Hi khaz,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes my current crt tv does have a scart socket. I'm currently using a composite lead (red, yellow, white) that came with the Super Famicom, with a scart socket adaptor, and the picture is in B&W.
Is it possible a dedicated scart lead could solve the problem then? I had just assumed my tv could not handle a 60hz NTSC image. (I am in the UK by the way!)
Cheers
Yes. And you're not 'getting away with' anything. You don't have to say "i have nothing to declare" either. There is an $800 personal exemption before you'd even be liable for any duty, and if you're talking about mostly retro stuff customs isn't going to concern itself with placing values on such items. When you are on the plane returning you'll need to fill out a customs declaration form and it will ask the value of the items you're bringing back with you. As far as I'm concerned, used video game items are worthless (for purposes of going through customs). A brand new item should be included against your $800 exemption, but what they're really concerned about catching is items with values in the thousands. Say for instance you didn't really have $800 worth of stuff, but (for example) $1200 worth of stuff. How much do you think the duty on that excess $400 worth of stuff is?? Maybe $40-50? Not worth their time.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Totally makes sense and I read something about $800 as well but wanted to make sure I interpreted that right. Does the form ask me to list what I have? (Video games lol)
hmmm, that's funny because...
My UK SNES most definitely came with an RGB scart cable which was bought along with the console (RGB SCART has always been standard here and the SNES outputs RGB natively without modification) - my parents bought one with the console as the dude in the store sold it to them as it gave the best video quality and least hassle. The RGB JP21 cable was also widely available in Japan:
The Mega Drive also outputs RGB natively without modification, and RGB SCART cables were sold and widely available here in the UK and Europe for both models of the console:
Just because the cables weren't standard in the box doesn't mean RGB wasn't widely used (every CRT on the market here in the UK supported RGB SCART through the 90s). Unless you were in America of course. The only exception is obviously the NES and N64. Every other console released here supported RGB as standard and the cables were widely available in Argos, Littlewoods, EB and GAME. I also still have one of these from the GameCube launch which I got from EB:
no. but the customs agent may ask, depending on how long the line is behind you.
http://www.ugandamission.net/travel/air/image/6059bf.jpg
(just found on google - no special reason for that link except the pic is big)
baphomet
Member
Nothing yet, I was just wondering this myself.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Awesome, thank you so much!
Definitely. The lack of colour means your Tv can't process the NTSC signal and can only display the Luma part of it, getting you a clear black and white picture. If your tv were not to support a different Sync frequency, the picture would have been quite unstable, "rolling". RGBS has no encoding, so any TV can use it as long as it has input for it, usually in the form of a Scart socket.
Get an RGB Scart cable and be done with your problems.
Still get the B&O set, it's probably a bigger display and it may be able to decode Composite NTSC, for the few consoles that don't have RGB without modding. And you don't want it to be thrown away #SaveTheCRTs
BONKERS
Member
it is a fact that games were designed around the common standards like composite. They were made to be viewed like that to take advantage of the effects of it.
Why would so many games be designing their graphics around composite video when in 2/3 countries superior RGB was available? (In the case of the NES though, Composite was the high-end video. And the system doesn't output RGB natively outside of the Tilter. Considering the system originally came out in 1983)
I have a hard time understanding this.
Might as well figure out how to get the system to output square pixels too since it stretches them
geniusbits
Member
Why haven't more game designers been interviewed about this? It's such a hotly debated issue, and people with podcasts are getting retro game makers on from time to time.
In this thread there was a FF6 screen that showed quite clearly that composite brought to life an image that looked like a bunch of disconnected pixels on the emulation version with clear output. But then someone said look at if from 6 feet away, and it started to look better. There's also the leaves in Pitfall for Genesis, and the tubes in Sonic that look weird in RGB. It can't be an accident that these effects look like nothing without dithering from composite.
I think game makers probably developed graphics based on the dominant video output tech in Japan and the U.S., sorry Europe but look at Genesis and SNES sales figures . I would also guess that the average Japanese used composite. If the average Japanese gamer, or the overwhelming majority of them, was using RGB then we would have seen graphics made to work best with that format.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The thing is that many developers visualized their software on RGB monitors back in the day.
They probably also took into account that most of their work would be seen on a composite connection, though.
geniusbits
Member
Was it that cut and dry? A big company like Sega or Nintendo, I'm sure they had access to consumer tvs to check on their games. They probably used monitors to make sure the colors were right, like a recording artist using monitor headphones to check on the purity of the recording. If they didn't have access to composite they could have never created the effects seen in some games, it could not have been a coincidence that some objects just happened to look more like they should on composite than RGB.
geniusbits
Member
That's an ok model, but on the low end for PVMs. It has RGB in (which you definitely need if you're going to the trouble of getting a pro monitor) and does 600 lines. It also only does up to 480i so you won't be able to set some 6th generation games to 480p.
I just said in my post that devs took advantage of the shitty image quality of composite. Its a downside in literally every other respect and to me its not worth putting up with for the very few upsides.
Thanks for the advise. Just noticed a Trinitron PVM-2950Q for even less.
I feel like this image gets misused. As far as I recall it's an emulator shot with no filter compared to one with a filter. It's not really anything to do with composite. RGB on an actual SNES does not look like the unfiltered emulator shot.
Here they are again:
And here's RGB on my SNES/PVM - off screen, looks 100x better in person but you get the idea...
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
^ this shot only confirms my feeling that the artifact which best displays original games as designed is scanlines, not blurring pixels together.
A little softness is nice, but not nearly to the extent that overused FFVI comparison shows.
I think people decry the sharp pixels mistakenly due to upscaling issues and sometimes the harshness of LCD technology. Even on a modern display, if it's been properly upscaled, sharp pixels with scanlines will look pretty much as intended, IMO.
A little softness is nice, but not nearly to the extent that overused FFVI comparison shows.
I think people decry the sharp pixels mistakenly due to upscaling issues and sometimes the harshness of LCD technology. Even on a modern display, if it's been properly upscaled, sharp pixels with scanlines will look pretty much as intended, IMO.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Sweet. In another thread, Tim mentions adapting it for 7800 use, perhaps next year. I may holf out for that, may as well get two systems to have RGB despute the 7800 having a ho hum library
geniusbits
Member
Peagles that shot does look better than the filtered emu shot. I guess that's not a good example and the real issue is the (mostly Sega Genesis) dithering effects that were clearly meant for composite.
Maybe the new 2600 mod means it's time to resurrect the old OT or whatever that is: http://www.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=492952
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