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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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G

Gunsmithx

Member
Shame about the sd media launcher, I always put it off thinking I'll just get it next paycheck, one day I'll learn :/ So I guess the next step is to order up a modchip and order some mini dvd's to burn everything too.
 
N

NoFaceNico

Member
Timu said:
Excellent video!!! Screw the Retron 5, I didn't even know about those reliability problems!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Yeah, I was really surprised that they could mess up their software so badly.

After I included that Office Space reference, I had the idea to include a scene at the end where some of my friends and I would do a perfect re-creation of the scene where they destroy the printer, but instead do it with the Retron 5. But I couldn't get everyone together in time, so I decided to skip it. The Retron 5's execution has been granted a stay... for now ;)
 
T

thechristoph

Sir!
BocoDragon said:
A lot of this really is potentially your cables. You don't yet have any cables without really bad artifacts. Once your PS2 component cables arrive, you will have a more or less artifact-free cable (maybe with little "noise", but good), if you have shimmering edges and stuff then, it's your TV.

I got a PVM 2 months ago, and until my RGB cables came in the artifacts on composite and s-video were really dissapointing. Just getting RGB cables fixed all that (and component is in that league too)
Click to expand...

Khaz said:
The artefacts come from composite and NTSC itself. Prepare to have your mind blown when you receive your components cables.

And because your TV has component inputs, I strongly suggest you to invest in a Scart-to-Component converter and RGB Scart cables for all your other consoles to have the best image possible.
Click to expand...


I really appreciate both of your replies.

Since many of the consoles I'm interested in do RGB out of the box (SNES, Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast), will any Euro SCART cable from Retrogamingcables do?

Also, any recommendations for the SCART to Component converter? I've heard SCART connectors are really fragile; does a quality SCART switch to component converter exist that won't break the bank?
 
G

geniusbits

Member
NoFaceNico said:
If anyone's interested, I made a Retron 5 vs. Super Retro Trio comparison review... you might be surprised by the results...

Here's the link

I hope you enjoy it!
Click to expand...
Good review but I don't agree with the description of what they did as packaging the open source emu software as selling something free. They did make a physical product, no matter how poor it may have been. I guess it's an IP philosophy issue.
 
N

NoFaceNico

Member
geniusbits said:
Good review but I don't agree with the description of what they did as packaging the open source emu software as selling something free. They did make a physical product, no matter how poor it may have been. I guess it's an IP philosophy issue.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Yes, they did sell a physical product, and yes- my next argument would have been that this physical product isn't worth the plastic it's made out of.

But the way they went about it was completely wrong as I outlined in the last half of the video. There is a right way to do it. If they had made the Retron 5 into a product like the Retrode there would be no complaints.
 
K

Khaz

Member
thechristoph said:
I really appreciate both of your replies.

Since many of the consoles I'm interested in do RGB out of the box (SNES, Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast), will any Euro SCART cable from Retrogamingcables do?
Click to expand...

Genesis yes, but you need an NTSC Scart cable for your NTSC Saturn, the console AV pinout is slightly different between regions. I think some people did universal cables too. You may want to ask in the dedicated threads for the other consoles.

thechristoph said:
Also, any recommendations for the SCART to Component converter? I've heard SCART connectors are really fragile; does a quality SCART switch to component converter exist that won't break the bank?
Click to expand...

You want a Scart switch box so that you can connect all your consoles to a single converter and not worry about switching cables manually.It's usually the socket that loosens after several insertions and can need repairs.

Someone may correct me (I never used one myself), but I believe any Scart to component box should do, since it's merely translating the picture to another colour space. There's no upscaling of any sort so the fuckups are limited. Which also means the lightguns games should still work if it's a CRT. You may need a second adapter to extract the audio too, most adapters I see do video only for some reason.

If you start on this path though, be aware that Scart cable tend to be subject to crosstalk when poorly made, generally resulting in an audio buzz, usually faint enough to be covered by background music. Some people don't mind, I know I don't like it. To minimise it, you need cables with the proper amount of shielding: retrogamingcables call them Packapunch, retro_console_accessories call them coaxial pro cabling, I call them f*ing thick cables. Same goes for the Scart switch box, you want one that doesn't have a cable included (they're cheap), and buy your own quality male/male Scart cable. Then again, if you play without the sound or if you have your consoles modded for audio out and a dedicated amp, all of this doesn't matter.
 
goldenpp72

goldenpp72

Member
Peltz said:
In that case.... More pics please :)

I want to see that room if you wouldn't mind.
Click to expand...

I'm not finished setting up yet, I guess you could say i'm about done with phase 2, phase 3 will involve hiding wires and organizing everything, and getting around to getting the security system setup in there as well. Still I guess it's presentable enough so here are some pics. Here is a link with a couple pages of stuff I have taken pictures of.

http://s952.photobucket.com/user/goldenpp73/library/?sort=3&page=1

Didn't want to blow up the topic with pictures all over the place, heh.
 
P

Peltz

Member
goldenpp72 said:
I'm not finished setting up yet, I guess you could say i'm about done with phase 2, phase 3 will involve hiding wires and organizing everything, and getting around to getting the security system setup in there as well. Still I guess it's presentable enough so here are some pics. Here is a link with a couple pages of stuff I have taken pictures of.

http://s952.photobucket.com/user/goldenpp73/library/?sort=3&page=1

Didn't want to blow up the topic with pictures all over the place, heh.
Click to expand...

Thanks... that was worth flipping through. Awesome room!
 
goldenpp72

goldenpp72

Member
Peltz said:
Thanks... that was worth flipping through. Awesome room!
Click to expand...

Thank you, it was a lot of years of spending, anger and planning, but the end result turned out to be fun and fairly functional in the end. I'm unfortunately not done yet but maybe in a few years i'll be able to put a bow on it and call it :p
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
NoFaceNico said:
Thanks!

Yes, they did sell a physical product, and yes- my next argument would have been that this physical product isn't worth the plastic it's made out of.

But the way they went about it was completely wrong as I outlined in the last half of the video. There is a right way to do it. If they had made the Retron 5 into a product like the Retrode there would be no complaints.
Click to expand...

There is no way they could've made the system work while honoring the licenses of the individual software.

Unless like you mention, make it like a Retrode, come with no software and is simply an interface to play your games on PC emulators.

But of course they can't sell that to the ignorant retro masses!
 
N

NoFaceNico

Member
BONKERS said:
There is no way they could've made the system work while honoring the licenses of the individual software.

Unless like you mention, make it like a Retrode, come with no software and is simply an interface to play your games on PC emulators.

But of course they can't sell that to the ignorant retro masses!
Click to expand...

Yep. I'm sure a 5-slot retrode device could be popular with the retro community but the masses just see a console that plays old games in HD, they don't bother to notice the trail of slime left by the company that created it.

I don't want to derail this or violate forum rules, but I was very disappointed that the gaming media outlets weren't able to shine more light on the Libretro v. Hyperkin story because right when that story broke a certain gaming [non]controversy was dominating the news coverage. I couldn't believe that the media was forced to focus on vitriolic parts of the gaming community that claimed to be victimized while a real story about open source developers being exploited got so little coverage. Tsk. Tsk.

catpurrcat said:
Incredible video! Very helpful. Picking up a retro trio tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Thank you! If you have your eyes on clone consoles it doesn't get much better than the SR3. Let us know what you think about it! Especially with those controllers, prepare to be impressed.

And check out their blue colored model. That thing is so sexy, I swear they chose Mega Man's colors! I might even just buy one of those too since they're so cheap.

RB-SR3-3279.jpg
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
NoFaceNico said:
Thank you! If you have your eyes on clone consoles it doesn't get much better than the SR3
Click to expand...
Being the best clone console is pretty faint praise.

Has there ever been a clone that is even 70% as good as the original? The closest is something like the Analogue NT, but it's really just a case swap for actual original chips.

And anyway, the best clones are ones that use basically the same parts, like some early Famiclones that are not NOACs and some late SNES clones that are basically the same computer.

This thing is not that. It's a NOAC and a SNOAC and whatever the Mega Drive equivalent is. Glitches, poor quality components and crappy video output.

Just get the real consoles and RGB cables. That's literally what this thread is about :)
 
N

NoFaceNico

Member
D.Lo said:
Being the best clone console is pretty faint praise.

Has there ever been a clone that is even 70% as good as the original? The closest is something like the Analogue NT, but it's really just a case swap for actual original chips.

And anyway, the best clones are ones that use basically the same parts, like some early Famiclones that are not NOACs and some late SNES clones that are basically the same computer.

This thing is not that. It's a NOAC and a SNOAC and whatever the Mega Drive equivalent is. Glitches, poor quality components and crappy video output.

Just get the real consoles and RGB cables. That's literally what this thread is about :)
Click to expand...

Ummm.. the originals didn't come with RGB cables and you're completely ignoring how expensive it is (and the skills required) to mod these systems. Oh, and that Analogue NT costs $600.

Buying original hardware is a minefield. Pick your poison: NES toaster with faulty pins, anyone? Or how about a top loader NES with RF out only? Does anyone know which variation of Genesis is the best without redirecting to an FAQ? Or how about a brittle, yellowed, cracking SNES?

I don't think this thread is just about the RGB elite. And I hate to burst your bubble but the sharp pixel "8-bit look" is a completely modern "misimpression" of what these games were designed to look like. Don't listen to me, the creative director/producer (aka- the first name that appears in the credits) at Westwood says so. Here, it's cued up already: https://youtu.be/kILeyo1iv0A?t=1m12s
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Mate I'm sorry that clone is not a good solution for anyone who wants good video and audio output. Stock, unmodified original NES SNES and MD consoles output far better video than that clone (RGB for SNES and MD), and have 100% compatibility instead of 'pretty good compatibility'.

I don't think this thread is just about the RGB elite.
Click to expand...
Actually that is literally what this thread is about. It is the title of the thread.

And I hate to burst your bubble but the sharp pixel "8-bit look" is a completely modern "misimpression" of what these games were designed to look like.
Click to expand...
That's also what this thread is about. The entire OP is about RGB CRTs and scalers that make the games look correct.
 
C

catpurrcat

Member
NoFaceNico said:
Yep. I'm sure a 5-slot retrode device could be popular with the retro community but the masses just see a console that plays old games in HD, they don't bother to notice the trail of slime left by the company that created it.

I don't want to derail this or violate forum rules, but I was very disappointed that the gaming media outlets weren't able to shine more light on the Libretro v. Hyperkin story because right when that story broke a certain gaming [non]controversy was dominating the news coverage. I couldn't believe that the media was forced to focus on vitriolic parts of the gaming community that claimed to be victimized while a real story about open source developers being exploited got so little coverage. Tsk. Tsk.



Thank you! If you have your eyes on clone consoles it doesn't get much better than the SR3. Let us know what you think about it! Especially with those controllers, prepare to be impressed.

And check out their blue colored model. That thing is so sexy, I swear they chose Mega Man's colors! I might even just buy one of those too since they're so cheap.

RB-SR3-3279.jpg
Click to expand...

Any idea if a specific colour of the sr3 is the newest hardware revision? If that matters
 
shanafan

shanafan

Member
NoFaceNico said:
If anyone's interested, I made a Retron 5 vs. Super Retro Trio comparison review... you might be surprised by the results...

Here's the link

I hope you enjoy it!
Click to expand...

Well produced and edited video. Sorry to hear that your Retron 5 was experiencing issues. AFAIK, the first batch did have issues with deathgrips on carts and reliability. However, the Retron5 has improved over time. I waited and picked one up a few months back and love it. The HDMI out was a major selling point for me. The trio does sound interesting though! I might just get one for the fun of it ;)

But at the end of the day, gosh I would love to get that RGB output board replacement for the NES, and the Framemeister, etc etc
 
P

Peltz

Member
NoFaceNico said:
Ummm.. the originals didn't come with RGB cables and you're completely ignoring how expensive it is (and the skills required) to mod these systems. Oh, and that Analogue NT costs $600.

Buying original hardware is a minefield. Pick your poison: NES toaster with faulty pins, anyone? Or how about a top loader NES with RF out only? Does anyone know which variation of Genesis is the best without redirecting to an FAQ? Or how about a brittle, yellowed, cracking SNES?

I don't think this thread is just about the RGB elite. And I hate to burst your bubble but the sharp pixel "8-bit look" is a completely modern "misimpression" of what these games were designed to look like. Don't listen to me, the creative director/producer (aka- the first name that appears in the credits) at Westwood says so. Here, it's cued up already: https://youtu.be/kILeyo1iv0A?t=1m12s
Click to expand...

So much wrong in one post. I also think it's hilarious that you say buying original hardware is a minefield, then praise clone hardware as a solution.
 
goldenpp72

goldenpp72

Member
NoFaceNico said:
Ummm.. the originals didn't come with RGB cables and you're completely ignoring how expensive it is (and the skills required) to mod these systems. Oh, and that Analogue NT costs $600.

Buying original hardware is a minefield. Pick your poison: NES toaster with faulty pins, anyone? Or how about a top loader NES with RF out only? Does anyone know which variation of Genesis is the best without redirecting to an FAQ? Or how about a brittle, yellowed, cracking SNES?

I don't think this thread is just about the RGB elite. And I hate to burst your bubble but the sharp pixel "8-bit look" is a completely modern "misimpression" of what these games were designed to look like. Don't listen to me, the creative director/producer (aka- the first name that appears in the credits) at Westwood says so. Here, it's cued up already: https://youtu.be/kILeyo1iv0A?t=1m12s
Click to expand...

I own all original hardware and didn't find it challenging to research them or find them in nice shape. I own 3 snes consoles with no yellowing. My top loader is rgb modded so that did cost a lot but otherwise it wasn't too bad.
 
T

televator

Member
HEY! You PS2 owners looking for component cables... quit looking and get this instead. They are official.

D terminal is the same as component. If you got a Framemeister, it plugs directly in. If you don't have an FM you can simply reterminate the cable with component plugs or use some sort of adapter.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Don't expect clone hardware to get much respect in this thread, Nico. As D.Lo said, this thread is all about getting the best possible IQ as intended by the software's original creators. The whole point is to be picky and elitist about it, even by GAF standards. Furthermore, this:

NoFaceNico said:
I don't want to derail this or violate forum rules, but I was very disappointed that the gaming media outlets weren't able to shine more light on the Libretro v. Hyperkin story because right when that story broke a certain gaming [non]controversy was dominating the news coverage. I couldn't believe that the media was forced to focus on vitriolic parts of the gaming community that claimed to be victimized while a real story about open source developers being exploited got so little coverage. Tsk. Tsk.
Click to expand...

... is bullshit. People's lives being ruined IS a story. And there are other places on GAF to discuss that topic. Let's not start blaming women for ruining retro gaming now. Good grief.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
televator said:
HEY! You PS2 owners looking for component cables... quit looking and get this instead. They are official.

D terminal is the same as component. If you got a Framemeister, it plugs directly in. If you don't have an FM you can simply reterminate the cable with component plugs or use some sort of adapter.
Click to expand...

I lucked out on some yard sale official PS3 component cables, but this is some good advice.
 
N

NoFaceNico

Member
catpurrcat said:
Any idea if a specific colour of the sr3 is the newest hardware revision? If that matters
Click to expand...

I think there are some minor changes and I didn't get mine from the first batch. AFAIK right now all of the colors are available but the original red/black color appeared first, then silver/black and the blue one appeared last. So, yeah I assume the blue one would have the latest changes.

shanafan said:
Well produced and edited video. Sorry to hear that your Retron 5 was experiencing issues. AFAIK, the first batch did have issues with deathgrips on carts and reliability. However, the Retron5 has improved over time. I waited and picked one up a few months back and love it. The HDMI out was a major selling point for me. The trio does sound interesting though! I might just get one for the fun of it ;)

But at the end of the day, gosh I would love to get that RGB output board replacement for the NES, and the Framemeister, etc etc
Click to expand...

I recommend trying out the Retron 5 and original hardware or the SR3 side by side. It's hard to get an understanding of the R5's lag without having analog stuff next to it. Even if the R5 ran perfectly and didn't rip off it's software I still wouldn't be able to go back to it because of the lag. That tiny bit of delay makes me feel like I'm playing the game while wearing Micky Mouse gloves.


RadarScope1 said:
Don't expect clone hardware to get much respect in this thread, Nico. As D.Lo said, this thread is all about getting the best possible IQ as intended by the software's original creators. The whole point is to be picky and elitist about it, even by GAF standards.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I saw the discussion included av composite mods so I figured this would be the best place to post it without starting a new thread or bringing back a very old one. But oh well, overall my video has been well received.
Furthermore, this: ... is bullshit. People's lives being ruined IS a story. And there are other places on GAF to discuss that topic. Let's not start blaming women for ruining retro gaming now. Good grief.
Click to expand...

Okay, I should have been more clear on that. I wish that "controversy" never existed. I'm definitely not on the side of blaming women because they're clearly not the ones that started it or made it worse with threats. Both sides in that controversy claimed to be victimized but I hoped I could be vague enough and make my position clear by identifying one side as "vitriolic". I'm glad you pointed it out because I didn't realize what I said could be misinterpreted. But yeah, let's not derail this or violate forum rules. If you need to respond further via PM, go ahead and I'll be glad to read it.
 
C

catpurrcat

Member
NoFaceNico said:
I think there are some minor changes and I didn't get mine from the first batch. AFAIK right now all of the colors are available but the original red/black color appeared first, then silver/black and the blue one appeared last. So, yeah I assume the blue one would have the latest changes.



I recommend trying out the Retron 5 and original hardware or the SR3 side by side. It's hard to get an understanding of the R5's lag without having analog stuff next to it. Even if the R5 ran perfectly and didn't rip off it's software I still wouldn't be able to go back to it because of the lag. That tiny bit of delay makes me feel like I'm playing the game while wearing Micky Mouse gloves.




Yeah, I saw the discussion included av composite mods so I figured this would be the best place to post it without starting a new thread or bringing back a very old one. But oh well, overall my video has been well received.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nico, good to know about the white one. Come and join us in the SNES Collecting thread, your video showed you are about the games and most of us in there are just trying to get the right thrift store CRT to use our composite cables on :) And everyone seems to put input lag concerns first. come join us!!
 
T

thechristoph

Sir!
televator said:
HEY! You PS2 owners looking for component cables... quit looking and get this instead. They are official.

D terminal is the same as component. If you got a Framemeister, it plugs directly in. If you don't have an FM you can simply reterminate the cable with component plugs or use some sort of adapter.
Click to expand...

Oh wow. I just bought some generic $5 cables on amazon... I hope they're at least serviceable.
 
R

Rongolian

Banned
Has anyone been watching SGDQ?

Somebody get these people some SCART cables and RGB mods! I love watching the marathons but seeing composite output on some of these console is so disappointing!
 
M

Madao

Member
Rongolian said:
Has anyone been watching SGDQ?

Somebody get these people some SCART cables and RGB mods! I love watching the marathons but seeing composite output on some of these console is so disappointing!
Click to expand...

they've already discussed RGB with old consoles and the last consensus is that it would add a lot of complexity to the setups for very little gain.
it's not a final consensus so it could change over time but at this time they don't want to add that to the capture chain.
 
C

c-murph

Member
Hmmmmm... So, that FRAMEMEISTER is like $330CDN dollars. Pretty expensive. Plus you need a RGB cable for it and RGB cables for each system...

Which of the North American systems can use RGB without any modifications?

SNES? Genesis? Saturn? Playstation? PS2? Gamecube?
 
goldenpp72

goldenpp72

Member
c-murph said:
Hmmmmm... So, that FRAMEMEISTER is like $330CDN dollars. Pretty expensive. Plus you need a RGB cable for it and RGB cables for each system...

Which of the North American systems can use RGB without any modifications?

SNES? Genesis? Saturn? Playstation? PS2? Gamecube?
Click to expand...

Master system, Neogeo, Dreamcast (I think), jaguar, and maybe the Xbox but I imagine most would use component for that.
 
T

Timu

Member
c-murph said:
Hmmmmm... So, that FRAMEMEISTER is like $330CDN dollars. Pretty expensive. Plus you need a RGB cable for it and RGB cables for each system...

Which of the North American systems can use RGB without any modifications?

SNES? Genesis? Saturn? Playstation? PS2? Gamecube?
Click to expand...
All but Gamecube, only Pal Gamecubes can do RGB.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
NoFaceNico said:
I think there are some minor changes and I didn't get mine from the first batch. AFAIK right now all of the colors are available but the original red/black color appeared first, then silver/black and the blue one appeared last. So, yeah I assume the blue one would have the latest changes.



I recommend trying out the Retron 5 and original hardware or the SR3 side by side. It's hard to get an understanding of the R5's lag without having analog stuff next to it. Even if the R5 ran perfectly and didn't rip off it's software I still wouldn't be able to go back to it because of the lag. That tiny bit of delay makes me feel like I'm playing the game while wearing Micky Mouse gloves.




Yeah, I saw the discussion included av composite mods so I figured this would be the best place to post it without starting a new thread or bringing back a very old one. But oh well, overall my video has been well received.


Okay, I should have been more clear on that. I wish that "controversy" never existed. I'm definitely not on the side of blaming women because they're clearly not the ones that started it or made it worse with threats. Both sides in that controversy claimed to be victimized but I hoped I could be vague enough and make my position clear by identifying one side as "vitriolic". I'm glad you pointed it out because I didn't realize what I said could be misinterpreted. But yeah, let's not derail this or violate forum rules. If you need to respond further via PM, go ahead and I'll be glad to read it.
Click to expand...

Hey, the video is great. I've been curious about the R5, even though I wasn't likely to buy a clone box. So I appreciate it. I guess I was just saying that you shouldn't be surprised when people are giving a little push back in a thread like this one. Maybe the RetroGAF Unite thread would be a better place? Heck, maybe a thread about clones generally is needed. There's no one place for impressions or reviews of the latest few pieces of hardware.

As for the other stuff, no need to talk more. I probably jumped the gun.
 
M

Mega

Banned
I had a question regarding geometry. Everything looks fine on my PVM-20M4U, except the top-right corner of the top-right square is slanted in the 240p suite's geometry test.

For reference, not my picture:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/PVM monitors/P1050199_zpscf8c90d8.jpg

This is reflected in gameplay with the top-right corner and the scanlines in that spot curving downward. It's not terrible and I simply adjusted V Size and V Center so it is mostly out of frame and not noticeable. I still want to know if this can be adjusted through a service menu setting. All the settings I tweaked only adjust the left and right sides of the picture, not the top and bottom.

Also,should the red squares' outer sides be right up to the edge of the screen but still entirely inside? Ignoring my issue above, I found that doing this meant that NES and SNES games did not have enough overscan on the left and right sides. Adjusting so that the red squares' are partially and evenly outside the monitor screen fixed this but I don't know if this is the right way of doing things.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
monkeymagic84 said:
Also,should the red squares' outer sides be right up to the edge of the screen but still entirely inside? Ignoring my issue above, I found that doing this meant that NES and SNES games did not have enough overscan on the left and right sides. Adjusting so that the red squares' are partially and evenly outside the monitor screen fixed this but I don't know if this is the right way of doing things.
Click to expand...

Either way can be considered "correct" depending on the system. Many old systems don't actually draw the game to the full screen, so pushing the red squares out of frame will eliminate the game's border and leave everything else intact. Doing this with a CRT's picture controls doesn't "scale" the image resolution at all, either, so you're not losing any clarity by doing so.
 
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