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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Ah, thanks for the clarification, missile. Still, wouldn't a drop in spatial res depend on the type of dither applied and whether it was for print or digital output? When I apply multiple types to a standard image, the color table remains intact.
Definitely, I'm a bit offput myself by it in Majora's Mask (although in MM it's in lighting/shadows and not a direct comparison to the PS1 stuff)...but everything I've come across points to the nasty dithering being a separate implementation and not tied to or caused by the color bit depth. In emulators like epsxe for example it was missing altogether without doing anything to the bit depth (unless you manually enable a dithering filter).
Since when does any of that matter? That's why free software licenses exist, of which 240p Suite uses the GNU General Public License. The first and most basic point of the license: the end user, Rich, is allowed to modify and redistribute the software as long as the license remains intact going forward. If Artemio has a problem with this then he's in violation of the very license he decided to use. In short, this was moot point to raise. No one would have thought for a sec Rich was doing anything wrong, regardless if he's selling his thing at cost or for a profit.
Definitely, I'm a bit offput myself by it in Majora's Mask (although in MM it's in lighting/shadows and not a direct comparison to the PS1 stuff)...but everything I've come across points to the nasty dithering being a separate implementation and not tied to or caused by the color bit depth. In emulators like epsxe for example it was missing altogether without doing anything to the bit depth (unless you manually enable a dithering filter).
Since when does any of that matter? That's why free software licenses exist, of which 240p Suite uses the GNU General Public License. The first and most basic point of the license: the end user, Rich, is allowed to modify and redistribute the software as long as the license remains intact going forward. If Artemio has a problem with this then he's in violation of the very license he decided to use. In short, this was moot point to raise. No one would have thought for a sec Rich was doing anything wrong, regardless if he's selling his thing at cost or for a profit.
geniusbits
Member
Are you saying you have the capabilities to basically make "Everdrives" for much less $?
Repros.
geniusbits
Member
With the same capabilities?
Nope, just taking the ROM chip from an existing cartridge and replacing it with another - essentially turning it into a different game (or a 240p suite cart)
I spent a bit of time on Wednesday getting my donor carts ready for when the EEPROMs I ordered come in. For example, here's one shot I took of an SA1 cart after removing the existing rom:
That £3 copy of shining scorpion will soon be a SMRPG hack.
In the case of the other carts I have, I'm turning a Stunt Race FX into Starfox 2 for one example
These are repros (taken from a user on the NG forums):
You CAN take a multi-game ROM ("100 in 1" or whatever) and put it on a EEPROM, but that's not a true Everdrive/flash cart.
NormalFish
Banned
I did not know this, which is why I looked it up.
I still think selling a piece of software you have no association with for profit or otherwise without announcing yourself isn't in the spirit of open source. It seems extremely odd to me to use someone else's work in a product and not que them in. If you disagree that's fine.
Of course it's in the spirit of open source. It's in the licence itself upon which the software is registered under.
And quite simply, it does not matter one iota what you think. You have no say in other people's matters or projects regardless of how much you assume you do.
Dreamcast port of Third Strike supports 240p.
Saturn port of Vampire Saviour is 240p. Vampire Chronicles for DC is 480p only, I think.
What are you basing your opinions on? People create and forge ahead without getting in touch with every last person that played a past part in the original work that's being used under free licenses.
It's not about whether I agree or disagree; it's that your sentiments about etiquette and spirit have no grounds and are entirely unfounded. This is normal and no one would think anything of it and make a fuss... no one is behaving in a manner that would raise even an eyebrow. The license covers all of this in advance so that two unconnected individuals don't have to get together and hash out a contract with all the details of what they did and plan to do with something every time. There are licenses that strictly stipulate you must notify the creator of your intentions and compensate as he/she desires. This isn't one of them. Artemio pointing this out in his wiki is reiterating the conditions of the license, not uniquely special permission giving the OK to end users.
Here is the one exception on his own site:
The Sega CD loader (c) by Luke Usher/SoullessSentinel and is not under the GPL, used with permission for this project.
Please read up:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney
Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?
Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)
Do I have “fair use” rights in using the source code of a GPL-covered program?
Yes, you do. “Fair use” is use that is allowed without any special permission. Since you don't need the developers' permission for such use, you can do it regardless of what the developers said about it—in the license or elsewhere, whether that license be the GNU GPL or any other free software license. Note, however, that there is no world-wide principle of fair use; what kinds of use are considered “fair” varies from country to country.
Exactly.
NormalFish
Banned
I have read up. Before your post. I was ignorant to the specific licenses which are associated with "open source", as I typically hear the phrase and think of simply open source code rather than the associations who have coined the term. So I looked it up.
I understand that rich is free to do what he likes With that software. I understand that no one has any power to stop him. He can distribute it to the end of the universe and back.
I'm not talking about what he can or cannot do. I find the idea of distributing a product without any attempt at collaboration or attempt to let someone know your plans such that they can work with or around (in this case, perhaps someone makes physical copies of something other than SNES) you, dumb. It's easier than ever to push for a bit of collaboration. I don't see why encouraging doing so is such a massive oversight of what open source is.
I understand that rich is free to do what he likes With that software. I understand that no one has any power to stop him. He can distribute it to the end of the universe and back.
I'm not talking about what he can or cannot do. I find the idea of distributing a product without any attempt at collaboration or attempt to let someone know your plans such that they can work with or around (in this case, perhaps someone makes physical copies of something other than SNES) you, dumb. It's easier than ever to push for a bit of collaboration. I don't see why encouraging doing so is such a massive oversight of what open source is.
You seem to find many things to be "dumb" and have a habit of putting them across in an arrogant and condescending way.
Just end it bro
I see what you mean. Are there official notes somewhere about Epsxe that state bit depth capabilities? All the regular Joe comments I come across on google searches seem to indicate that Epsxe can run in 32bit color depth. It does have some benefits. Lighting and shadows are improved, and any banding that may occur there is mitigated.
As stated before, your concerns are unfounded and already accounted for by all the documentation that the software creator himself chose to attach to his work. He read the license and said, yes I'll attach it to my work so that people in the future can do exactly what Rich is doing now. The end. If you continue to point out and take issue with what Rich is doing, then you're verging on being an instigator for no reason whatsoever. You need to drop it amicably instead of passive aggressively insisting that his actions are odd, wrong or dumb. Take the high road instead of trying to pick yet another fight.
Beer Monkey
Member
Shoot, I don't have any DC fighting sticks or pads. I may just stick to 480p on Xbox and 360 for this one. I'm also working on a GroovyArcade PC setup @240p so there's always that for the arcade version.
Pretty sure Saturn to DC controller adapters are available...might be a good option?
Edit: http://m.play-asia.com/total-control-3/13/7046
cyborgnumberblue
Member
I'd grab the official DC arcade stick, it's the best option and not bank breaking.
socksfelloff
Member
I'd say grabbing a ps360+ board is the best option
cyborgnumberblue
Member
To each his own I guess, the DC stick is one of the best sticks I own of the 5 I do.
NormalFish
Banned
if it ain't 8k it ain't shit
Beer Monkey
Member
I can't even go to the theater any more without the blur hurting my eyes and giving me a headache because not enough resolutions. How the motion picture industry survived the last century is beyond me.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I'm still OK with 720p. Even 480 when the game is designed around it is fine.Today, people on GAF told me that games in 1080p are "a blurry mess" and "ugly in 2016."
This website sometimes....
Edited for better gif.
Today, people on GAF told me that games in 1080p are "a blurry mess" and "ugly in 2016."
This website sometimes....
Edited for better gif.
Did I miss something? Where... who said this?
socksfelloff
Member
It's GAF. We have it just as bad with people In the retro threads. When I'm playing a game I couldn't fucking tell you if its a 1 chip Snes or not and I don't really give a shit. Others will tell you their eyes hurt with how blurry a non 1 chip is.
Sure I run everything via rgb but I'm not gonna harp on a guy for using svideo when it's a million times easier in NA.
Here you go:
You heard it here first folks!
*goes back to playing 480i Super Monkey Ball on a CRT - looking fine as hell*
I feel like that's a little different though. Composite is like... genuinely blurry.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, but relative to 1440p, let alone 4k, 1080p could also be considered genuinely blurry. I agree it's kinda dumb but eh.
socksfelloff
Member
Upgrading from Composite is absolutely an upgrade you can see. I was making a reference to point out the hyperbole on gaf which is why I chose svideo-rgb
I run a 1080/1440p dual monitor setup and the 1080 monitor looks noticeably worse when browsing the internet. For movies and games I couldn't tell you the difference.
I have to partially agree with final flame. A huge 27" 1080p desktop monitor a foot from your face is noticeably blurry compared to 1440p. The extra resolution is a major benefit for work and reading fine text on websites and documents. I wouldn't call it a blurry mess however. That's a silly exaggeration. In general I don't think any of this applies as a criticism of 240p/480p retro gaming.
edit: yeah, for complex 3D games I don't see a big difference between 1080/1440p once I'm engrossed in the action.
Download it on your computer or smartphone. In the video plugin config screen, there's a pulldown menu for selecting either 16 or 32 bit color depth. Yeah, lighting and shadow is improved because the extra 8 bits over 24 are for transparency effects.
edit: yeah, for complex 3D games I don't see a big difference between 1080/1440p once I'm engrossed in the action.
Download it on your computer or smartphone. In the video plugin config screen, there's a pulldown menu for selecting either 16 or 32 bit color depth. Yeah, lighting and shadow is improved because the extra 8 bits over 24 are for transparency effects.
Kiddy Dong
Member
Finally got Retroarch fully configured on my Wii. GBA games in 240p with no scaling problems on a 32" Trinitron is glorious.
It works! Also, turns out that pretty much most emulators will either skip dithering, or render in 32 bit, or both. I didn't expect I say this, but it think I might switch to using some emulators when best possible now. I hope that the impending FPGA clones also enable these features once they get around to 3D console clones. There is zero need for dithering nowadays anyway. Memory is cheaper than when these old consoles where manufactured. So larger frame buffers accommodating 32 bit will be big advantages over 16/24 bit, dithered original hardware on modern HDTVs.
Yes, depends on the pattern, i.e. on shades simulated and on dot distribution.
Colors can shift a lil depending on the pattern(s).
Proper dithering needs image adjustemens in multiples ways prior to dithering.
(not that much of an issue for computers, but in print you need to do it)
Dithering was also used to hide framebuffer saving (bits needed otherwise).
Indeed. Dithering has more of an artistic value these days.
Edit:
lol
If I have the existing RGB mod for the N64, what's needed to get the new mod/firmware with the de-blur option? I really wanna see how games look with de-blur + Disabled AA Gameshark codes. The GS codes are a real improvement on CRT and wish to see what the extra de-blur further accomplishes.
I can already do this with the Ultra HDMI but its imperfect upscaling (blurry) and minimum res of 480p (line doubled) doesn't allow me to see how sharp actual 240p games can look on a SD monitor.
I can already do this with the Ultra HDMI but its imperfect upscaling (blurry) and minimum res of 480p (line doubled) doesn't allow me to see how sharp actual 240p games can look on a SD monitor.
what was wrong with it? I assume it's working now? In any case, congrats! Is it a v3?
NormalFish
Banned
I think this is it: http://etim.net.au/n64rgb/tech/
I'm not sure what the current status of the firmware is, though. There seem to be quite a number of unanswered questions in the shmups thread and tim isn't terribly active. Seems he's been busy recently. The one on that page is probably up to date but no promises.
**
Looking at it, I'm not sure if the toggle works on the old hardware. his new revision has a few pads to manipulate it.
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Aaaaand the new units are up: http://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=209
It's working now(it was my fault), and it's a 2.5.
Thanks, I saw that earlier too. But I saw something somewhere else, on another webpage? I think it was firmware files for flashing to the existing N64 mod that would add de-blur option. I hope I'm not making this up.
Also, I read there are TWO levels of AA (PLUS the final horizontal blur) and the Gameshark codes so far only get rid of one! This from the Ultra HDMI creator:
http://retroactive.be/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7&start=360#p784
On that last point, people are finding that disabling AA does indeed improves framerate.
Reposting these(these are my screens):
Left is normal and right is no AA.
Left is normal and right is no AA.
2 layers of AA? Nintendo went crazy with it!
NormalFish
Banned
2 layers explains the differences in different deblur methods.
I'm not sure what else you saw, mega. I honestly find Tim's site very intimidating so you're on your own lol.
I'm not sure what else you saw, mega. I honestly find Tim's site very intimidating so you're on your own lol.
Hmm, I wonder how Star Fox looks without AA.
NormalFish
Banned
what's funny is that I actually think the AA filter makes the aliasing more obvious, rather than less. On some games more than others, but nonetheless.
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