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[Mega]

^As I learned today, currently nothing completely does but those two together are a huge improvement. Heck, the GS codes alone are tremendous.

2 layers explains the differences in different deblur methods.

I'm not sure what else you saw, mega. I honestly find Tim's site very intimidating so you're on your own lol.

To clarify, N64 is blurred three times:

1. First AA case which no one has removed yet but Marshall says can be done, albeit tediously so.

2. Second AA. This is what the Gameshark codes and Quake 64's Filter Off menu option disable.

3. 50% horizontal blur at the end of the process. This is what's undone via the De-Blur of the Ultra HDMI and the new N64RGB mod.

There are also blurry/smeared textures from the texture filtering adding to the blurry perception of N64 games. But this is fine in almost all cases (except hideous games like Jet Force Gemini) and shouldn't be messed with as it drastically changes how games should look... not that there's any mod that touches this. It's only in emulators that it can be removed.

 

[NormalFish]

That all helps the clarity, good post. I do wonder why nintendo went about it the way they did. I guess they wanted a specific visual identity for the system -- not terribly dissimilar from sony initially -- but it just seems like an odd decision. I don't think i'll ever understand the 5th gen console producers' thinking.

 

[Madao]

it was their first 3D console so i'm guessing a lot of that was due to inexperience.

 

[NormalFish]

it was their first 3D console so i'm guessing a lot of that was due to inexperience.

Fair enough, but it's not like 3D graphics didn't exist at the time.

 

[Mega]

I'm dismayed to learn the entire N64 library could have had much higher framerates and also not looked blurry. FFS... But the 90s were weird and everywhere you looked... movie SFX, computer animation, advertising, desktop publishing, graphic design, logos, fonts... people were doing strange, ugly shit they thought was cool and sensible. The mentality must've been that smoothing the hell out of every single element on the screen was that much more important than a big hit to the clarity and FPS.

Was browsing on my phone and some guy on another forum (shmups?) did say he flashed his own firmware to the N64RGB and was messing around with deblur before Tim's revised board even released. I think he has a download page for the firmware somewhere which may explain what I stumbled upon a couple weeks ago.

Hmm, I wonder how Star Fox looks without AA.

Lots of dithering. I think some of the GS codes indiscriminately disable both the AA filter and the dither filter that normally smooths them out so that we don't see meshes all over the place. Can't really see it here but this is the best image I have for now.

 

[NormalFish]

Borti wrote his own firmware for the N64RGB. I think it's on github but I can't remember seeing a link.
**
I thought the page I linked earlier described how to flash a new firmware. Possible I misread or misinterpreted, but it seems to describe using a JTAG programmer to flash it. Not sure if you saw that, or i'm misinterpreting your posts.

 

[Mega]

Yeah, saw that and that was my take as well... that you need additional hardware to flash it.

I think this is what I saw before
http://assemblergames.com/l/threads...ia-gameshark-cheats.59916/page-11#post-881569

ikari_01 made some nice pics of his replacement DAC firmware update for eviltims old RGB DAC.
now every second pixel is eliminated and each pixel is buffered,
https://github.com/mrehkopf/n64rgb/

EDIT: borti4938 added files für tims new MAX II RGB board
https://github.com/borti4938/n64rgb/blob/master/Quartus/output_files/n64rgb.pof

I just realized none of this is applicable to the cheap and little RGB amps most of us have in our modded N64s. I'll live with just the AA codes on my non-HDMI N64 for now. Deblur is less of an improvement than disabling AA anyway.

 

[NormalFish]

ah yeah, the little amps are more simplistic. I was going to use one in my N64 but at this point I might use one of the flexible ones Tim is producing now.

I actually prefer the deblur, too. Seems I might be in the minority on that, though.

Oh, that post also references borti. you can find a bit of discussion on the N64RGB deblur thread on shmups.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

How much do framerates improve?

 

[lame gag]

How much do framerates improve?

I noticed an improved frame rate in WWF No Mercy. In survival mode when 4 men were in the ring, there was noticeable slowdown. With AA disabled, I could see an improvement in the frame rate. I can't speak for any other game.

 

[Rich!]

My N64 currently has the basic rgb amp mod - it'd be trivial to simply swap it with borti's one, right? I fitted his SNES amp with no issues at all.

Note that I haven't actually opened this N64 myself yet.

 

[D.Lo]

Okay I've jumped on the N64 deblur bandwagon.

It really does make games look like PS1 games, just without texture warping. Dithering all over the place!

It does improve some games quite a bit, cleans them up. But generally the best looking games system look worse or no change. Like the top developers used the tools they had to create the best result, and others just used the blur to hide flaws.

Also, the N64 has so many great platformer/adventure games god damn.

EDIT: I can't see any change at all on Indiana Jones.

 

[Mega]

My N64 currently has the basic rgb amp mod - it'd be trivial to simply swap it with borti's one, right? I fitted his SNES amp with no issues at all.

Note that I haven't actually opened this N64 myself yet.

There would be no reason to do that unless you're using an old mod without proper amplification of the RGB signal (dim picture). All the RGB amps around now are essentially the same with a THS7314 chip. The new firmwares that add deblur are for Tim's N64 DAC boards, which is more expensive and more difficult to install. It was made for versions of the N64 that don't work with the simple amp.

 

[D.Lo]

I guess the ultimate N64 now would be a late model with Tim's RGB board. Since the later machines can also be overclocked more easily, something I've wanted to try for a while.

 

[televator]

From what I saw an OC'd N64 just overclocks the CPU and just makes games run faster. It doesn't increase frame rate per say.

 

[Mike Golf]

Would anyone be able to assist me in how to properly burn the 240p test suite for the DC and NeoGeo CD? I have a MilCD/Self boot disc enabled DC but no matter how I burn it via Disc Juggler or IMGBurn with the DC patch files I can't get it to work.

I even attempted using a boot disc first then the 240p disc; while the boot disc actually worked the 240p disc still did not. Would love to know if it's just a simple setting change I'm missing or if maybe I just bought a bad brand of CD-Rs. I don't see why one brand would work over another but there's a lot of conflicting information out there regarding what does and doesn't work when it comes to burning anything for the DC.

NeoGeo CD is even more mystifying, posts I find just keep saying "burn the test files onto a CD-R" but that simply just doesn't work. I've found guides on how to burn NeoGeo CD games properly but nothing to assist with the test suite.

Any insight provided would be appreciated.

 

[Morfeo]

So I'm at the Micomsoft page, ready to download the latest FW...

Am I reading this right? The FM does D-sub 15 -> Mini Din port? What?! Since when was this possible? Does this mean it'll take RGBHV directly?

Any good site to read the changes between firmwares?

 

[D.Lo]

From what I saw an OC'd N64 just overclocks the CPU and just makes games run faster. It doesn't increase frame rate per say.

Some games do, just Goldeneye and PD from what I've seen. Most games see performance increases. And the 2.0 overclock (stock is 1.5) is very stable.

 

[televator]

Any good site to read the changes between firmwares?

None that I'm aware of atm. It's a real pain getting into fine detail about the FM simply because it's a Japanese product, with most of its literature in Japanese. It's one reason I'm excited for things like OSSC, where everything will be detailed in English. lol

Some games do, just Goldeneye and PD from what I've seen. Most games see performance increases. And the 2.0 overclock (stock is 1.5) is very stable.

Do you know of a good YouTube vid as an example? All the vids I've seen speed up the game. The ones I saw include rogue squadron, Conker, and I think jet force.

 

[Morfeo]

None that I'm aware of atm. It's a real pain getting into fine detail about the FM simply because it's a Japanese product, with most of its literature in Japanese. It's one reason I'm excited for things like OSSC, where everything will be detailed in English. lol.

Yeah it sucks.

Anyways, the 8 way scart switch made by a guy over at assemblergames i now once again up for preorder if anybody here (like me) missed it the first time. I managed to grab one just yesterday.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Hi ya'll, looking to get my hands on an Extron Super Emotia, if anybody has a resource or is willing to sell one, please PM me!

 

[Madao]

another F-Zero X custom track recorded with Ultra HDMI and scaled to 4K.

i just can't hold myself back showing the custom tracks like this.

 

[Morfeo]

I read somewhere that 60hz modded pal-systems might have some sync issues (since they do not get 60hz, but 59 point something). Does anybody have any experience with this? Will it cause problems with the framemeister?

 

[Rich!]

I read somewhere that 60hz modded pal-systems might have some sync issues (since they do not get 60hz, but 59 point something). Does anybody have any experience with this? Will it cause problems with the framemeister?

When I had a framemeister, my 60hz modded pal mega drive, 60hz modded pal snes and PS1 worked fine with no issues via rgb scart.

 

[Khaz]

I read somewhere that 60hz modded pal-systems might have some sync issues (since they do not get 60hz, but 59 point something). Does anybody have any experience with this? Will it cause problems with the framemeister?

Only the Megadrive and only with the Framemeister, and only one user reported it. There is apparently a very slight stutter on horizontal scrolling every second or so, like a frame doubled or skipped. There is a video somewhere showing it. It could very well be their TV though, which doesn't like a 59.94Hz signal through HDMI (NTSC is 59.97Hz-ish), I very much doubt the Framemeister normalises frequencies.

I've never seen anyone complaining about it in this thread. Tbh I think you'd be inconvenienced by the input lag long before this tiny discrepancy between frequencies.

 

[protomouse]

I read somewhere that 60hz modded pal-systems might have some sync issues (since they do not get 60hz, but 59 point something). Does anybody have any experience with this? Will it cause problems with the framemeister?

The Framemeister does not like "PAL60" (composite video), but RGB should be fine (tested on SNES).

 

[Morfeo]

Alright, thanks to all of you for the answer!

 

[IrishNinja]

damn, i may have to get a larger SD for my N64 ED, just to try out those AA-less patches...gotta catch up & see what Timu thought!

 

[missile]

Some has some comparison shots of dithered and non-dithered old console games?

 

[geniusbits]

Computer monitor questions:
1) are there component>>>VGA transcoders that can be used to display Xbox, PS2 etc. 480p games on a computer monitor, similar to how they would be on a professional monitor at 45khz? What about LCD computer monitors? Basically could this be a good option for people looking for 480p display that can't find a pro monitor that can sync greater than 15khz?

2) do most CRT computer monitors take RGsB (composite sync on one of the sync pins) and can they display 240p/480i that way?

3) what does the sync rate mean in an LCD monitor? If it does 140khz, and that is not corresponding to how fast the electron gun can make a vertical line like in a CRT monitor, what is it referring to?

4) does anyone use a late model CRT monitor for modern PC gaming? Or have LCDs come down in input lag and up in quality enough so that it's pointless? I might grab a cheap one for novelty and plugging DC to see what that's like any way, but was thinking of trying it for modern games.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

1) are there component>>>VGA transcoders that can be used to display Xbox, PS2 etc. 480p games on a computer monitor, similar to how they would be on a professional monitor at 45khz? What about LCD computer monitors? Basically could this be a good option for people looking for 480p display that can't find a pro monitor that can sync greater than 15khz?

The XRGB-3 is basically built for this purpose.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Computer monitor questions:
1) are there component>>>VGA transcoders that can be used to display Xbox, PS2 etc. 480p games on a computer monitor, similar to how they would be on a professional monitor at 45khz? What about LCD computer monitors? Basically could this be a good option for people looking for 480p display that can't find a pro monitor that can sync greater than 15khz?

http://www.beharbros.com/#!garo/cnwf

It converts 480p and higher component systems to VGA (RGBHV) and RGBS. Perfect for using any old PC monitor with the console.

It can also partially or fully blank out every other line (you can choose even or odd) to create a scanline effect.

If the game is limited to 480i or 240p it can pass that through too, though it won't work on most PC monitors in that scenario.

It has no framebuffer so the amount of lag is going to be like a couple milliseconds.

 

[socksfelloff]

The xrgb3 is the better option but if you're looking for something MUCH cheaper that does a pretty great job you can grab one of these

http://m.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-Arcade-gam...ter-board-GBS8200-FE-/291548901807?nav=SEARCH

You can easily add a scanline circuit to it as well.

There's also a little secret most people don't know.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015MISAG/?tag=neogaf0e-20

This cable has a high quality component-vga converter in it. I forget the part number of the chip but it's a good one. You can strip the board out and solder your own component inputs to it and have an excellent component-vga adapter. This ONLY works for 480p sources though. There is no upscaling or de interlacing just a straight up yuv-rgbhv conversion.

I have both of these so if you have any further questions feel free to ask!

 

[Rich!]

I'm gonna get an xrgb3 as soon as I can. It's cheaper than the framemeister, less lag, and I can hook it up to a hi res crt PC monitor. win win

 

[Vespa]

It can also partially or fully blank out every other line (you can choose even or odd) to create a scanline effect.

If the Garo handles the scanline effect like the Hanzo then it only partially dims every other line, would have been nice to have the option to fully black out the lines. I think only the SLG3000 and T-SLG can fully blank the line.

The xrgb3 is the better option but if you're looking for something MUCH cheaper that does a pretty great job you can grab one of these

http://m.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-Arcade-gam...ter-board-GBS8200-FE-/291548901807?nav=SEARCH

You can easily add a scanline circuit to it as well.

There's also a little secret most people don't know.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015MISAG/?tag=neogaf0e-20

This cable has a high quality component-vga converter in it. I forget the part number of the chip but it's a good one. You can strip the board out and solder your own component inputs to it and have an excellent component-vga adapter. This ONLY works for 480p sources though. There is no upscaling or de interlacing just a straight up yuv-rgbhv conversion.

I have both of these so if you have any further questions feel free to ask!

The Ebay scaler won't pass through a non vesa time signal iirc so the 720x480 that the Wii and Xbox put out for example will be squished into a 640x480 output, I think you'd lose some of the horizontal resolution. It also has some desynch issues with peak level signals, you'd have to solder some (75ohm?) resistors to it.

That other cable looks exactly like the mayflash cable I have, it passes through the signals fine without any scaling but it has the same desynch issues as the ebay scaler, probably fixable with additional resistors soldered on too. A cheap transcoder that I would recommend would be this Mayflash device, it passes a lot of the desynch issues the others don't but still fails on things like the lighnting attack in Mario Kart Double Dash. I think it might be a Wii issue as I've not seen anything on the Xbox so I'm assuming it's never putting out a signal that causes these desynchs.

I've pre-orderd the GARO so will post up my impressions on how it holds synch here, hopefully be out in a few weeks.

 

[televator]

Just think it's worth noting however that the XRGB3 like the OSSC does not deinterlace 480i. That's the cost of being totally lagless. Other than that, yeah, seems like a great device.

 

[Mega]

What's the device that converts RGBHV to RGBS?

I have always had some distortion which can probably be attributed to the RGBHV signal when I run the MAME PC on the JVC monitor. The Sony monitors handle the signal without a problem and I would stick with those, but the JVC supports more arcade resolutions.

 

[NormalFish]

it doesn't? the OSSC uses a very basic deinterlacing technique, but it still outputs in 480p. In fact one of the requested features is a pass through option for 480i sources. Not sure exactly what technique it uses, though.

 

[Beer Monkey]

What's the device that converts RGBHV to RGBS?

I have always had some distortion which can probably be attributed to the RGBHV signal when I run the MAME PC on the JVC monitor. The Sony monitors handle the signal without a problem and I would stick with those, but the JVC supports more arcade resolutions.

Hm, I recently played with a bootable GroovyArcade USB on a PC with my JVC and a VGA to RGBHV breakout cable and didn't notice any issues. I'll check again sometime soon.

You can just combine the H and V together with a BNC T connector and you get S (CSYNC). Yeah, some people hypothesize it could damage the video card, I call BS on that.

 

[televator]

it doesn't? the OSSC uses a very basic deinterlacing technique, but it still outputs in 480p. In fact one of the requested features is a pass through option for 480i sources. Not sure exactly what technique it uses, though.

It's not deinterlacing. Line doubling 480i is using one field per frame for half the information/resolution. It's similar to getting 480p from a 240p source, and similarly not deinterlacing. Deinterlacing is 2 combined fields per frame for the full information/resolution of a 480 frame.

A pass through for 480i is actually... a damned good work around! That's surprising and new news for me about the OSSC. essentially it would allow the receiving display or other processor to handle true deinterlacing. You have a link that discusses this in detail?

 

[geniusbits]

it doesn't? the OSSC uses a very basic deinterlacing technique, but it still outputs in 480p. In fact one of the requested features is a pass through option for 480i sources. Not sure exactly what technique it uses, though.

What's the point of passing through 480i? Why not just connect it direct then?

 

[Beer Monkey]

What's the point of passing through 480i? Why not just connect it direct then?

Not having to change connections when switching between 240p and 480i games.

 

[televator]

What's the point of passing through 480i? Why not just connect it direct then?

As beer said, not having to swap connections and devices. I'll add that you potentially get the best possible picture from certain games that switch between 480i and 240p. You get deinterlaced 480i and you get switching resolutions without the strange Framemeister pause. Everything handled at presumably better quality than the FM.

 

[geniusbits]

The XRGB-3 is basically built for this purpose.

Oh now I get it, for some reason I never put that together. I was just thinking they had a silly output for that device, that one would have to convert to plug into an HDTV, rather than that it was designed for use in conjunction with VGA monitors. It's not worth it to me though to buy a $300 device for this capability, but it's interesting to know you can do it.

 

[geniusbits]

As beer said, not having to swap connections and devices. I'll add that you potentially get the best possible picture from certain games that switch between 480i and 240p.

Yeah but what end display device would you connect to? The whole reason for the OSSC and other upscalers is that your end device in the chain cannot upscale the image well in the first place.

 

[televator]

Yeah but what end display device would you connect to? The whole reason for the OSSC and other upscalers is that your end device in the chain cannot upscale the image well in the first place.

Half way incorrect. Most displays totally FUBAR 240p, but there are many more that handle 480i quite well with full motion adaptive processes.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Half way incorrect. Most displays totally FUBAR 240p, but there are many more that handle 480i quite well with full motion adaptive processes.

Like my 2008 Pioneer Kuro plasma. Does a fantastic job with 480i of all sorts (60 fields per second games, 3:2 pulldown for movies, and so on), but looks like a dirty butt when fed 240p.

 

[NormalFish]

It's not deinterlacing. Line doubling 480i is using one field per frame for half the information/resolution. It's similar to getting 480p from a 240p source, and similarly not deinterlacing. Deinterlacing is 2 combined fields per frame for the full information/resolution of a 480 frame.

A pass through for 480i is actually... a damned good work around! That's surprising and new news for me about the OSSC. essentially it would allow the receiving display or other processor to handle true deinterlacing. You have a link that discusses this in detail?

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/OSSC#Firmware_changelog_and_roadmap

So by deinterlacing, you're only including functions that use some method (predictive something or other I imagine) to fill in the missing data in each 240 line data so that it's a full 480p? Does something like weave deinterlacing (i think thats the right name lol) count, then? doesn't that just take existing data without filling it out?
**
wikipedia seems to imply that line doubling and bob deinterlacing are the same technique. seems like deinterlacing to me lol
**
oh, the other feature (requested by fudoh) related to 480i is the ability to offset every other field so you get 240p. Not sure the state of that.
Maybe this:

Advanced timing tweaker - position, samplerate etc. adjusments (target: 0.7X)

 

[televator]

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/OSSC#Firmware_changelog_and_roadmap

So by deinterlacing, you're only including functions that use some method (predictive something or other I imagine) to fill in the missing data in each 240 line data so that it's a full 480p? Does something like weave deinterlacing (i think thats the right name lol) count, then? doesn't that just take existing data without filling it out?
**
wikipedia seems to imply that line doubling and bob deinterlacing are the same technique. seems like deinterlacing to me lol
**
oh, the other feature (requested by fudoh) related to 480i is the ability to offset every other field so you get 240p. Not sure the state of that.
Maybe this:

The Wiki further clarifies:
Line doubling is sometimes confused with deinterlacing in general, or with interpolation (image scaling) which uses spatial filtering to generate extra lines and hence reduce the visibility of pixelation on any type of display.[4] The terminology 'line doubler' is used more frequently in high end consumer electronics, while 'deinterlacing' is used more frequently in the computer and digital video arena.

Weave deinterlacing is the most simplistic form. In motion, it will create the combing artifact that we're all familiar with. It does use both fields for one frame and so it is a form of true deinterlacing. It does have the benefit of being the least lag prone form as well. It also makes more sense to use this form of deinterlacing for static images, rather than wasting processing power on pictures that don't have any motion. So even devices that do employ full motion adaptive deinterlacing will revert back to weaving on static pictures.

The offset that Fudoh mentions is the form of 480i line doubling that the XRGB3 uses. It minimizes the "bobbing" effect inherent to line doubling 480i. The bobbing results in the first place due to the staggered nature of interlaced fields.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

It's not deinterlacing. Line doubling 480i is using one field per frame for half the information/resolution. It's similar to getting 480p from a 240p source, and similarly not deinterlacing. Deinterlacing is 2 combined fields per frame for the full information/resolution of a 480 frame.

What the XRGB-3 (and earlier models) do is still technically deinterlacing. It's taking a 480i input signal and outputting a 480p signal.