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[Toppot]

A follow up to my RGB PS1 Upscaling saga

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205288492&postcount=16195
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205405956&postcount=16223

I got the more expensive Scart to HDMI converter/upscaler and it works flawlessly with a regular PS1 RGB, one with Luma Sync and one with CSync. It looks great and has almost no input lag. So a big thank you to everyone that gave me advice =]

My only problem now is that my AverMedia LGP Lite doesn't seem to like the signal. The image vertically scrolls and the sound is choppy, here is a short video of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nA5SYzRauE

I have tried every cable, every resolution that my upscaler outputs (which is a lot), 50 and 60 Hz, manually changing the capture cards settings, using auto detect and I just get the same problem, be it in colour or black and white with green artefacts, all the while vertically scrolling.

I am 99% sure its a problem with the software as the LGP Lite itself outputs the image fine using HDMI to my TV, and it works fine with PS3/PS4 hdmi inputs.

I understand this problem might be a bit out of the remit of this thread but any help would be great. I have contacted AverMedias customer support and I am waiting to hear from them.

 

[Madao]

It's When going in the channel (without launching it). Not backing out. It also occured during a play of Mario Galaxy when I chose a galaxy and the "choose a star" option came up.

Besides the case being reversed when opoening the channel, the problem seems similar to the video minus the clicking noises.

i also have a Wii2HDMI converter and the zoomed in thing is probably because the TV doesn't do a full pixel display of SD sources. Wii is anamorphic widescreen so the resolution doesn't change when you set it to wide.
my TV is like that. it won't do full pixel for SD resolutions and any component or HDMI signal that is not HD will be a bit zoomed in. i wish there was a way to toggle this but TV hacking is an area i don't want to mess with.

 

[Timu]

A follow up to my RGB PS1 Upscaling saga

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205288492&postcount=16195
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205405956&postcount=16223

I got the more expensive Scart to HDMI converter/upscaler and it works flawlessly with a regular PS1 RGB, one with Luma Sync and one with CSync. It looks great and has almost no input lag. So a big thank you to everyone that gave me advice =]

My only problem now is that my AverMedia LGP Lite doesn't seem to like the signal. The image vertically scrolls and the sound is choppy, here is a short video of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nA5SYzRauE

I have tried every cable, every resolution that my upscaler outputs (which is a lot), 50 and 60 Hz, manually changing the capture cards settings, using auto detect and I just get the same problem, be it in colour or black and white with green artefacts, all the while vertically scrolling.

I am 99% sure its a problem with the software as the LGP Lite itself outputs the image fine using HDMI to my TV, and it works fine with PS3/PS4 hdmi inputs.

I understand this problem might be a bit out of the remit of this thread but any help would be great. I have contacted AverMedias customer support and I am waiting to hear from them.

Use AmaRecTV for capture software and see if that helps. It worked for me when I used to have a scart to hdmi converter.

 

[missile]

Yeah I can see that my fur around the edges isn't resolved. Heh... Man, I am so glad I brought up this topic here. Thanks for all the info missle!

It's an old tech. But dithering is still pretty cool for artistic reasons.

 

[Voliko]

Anyone else ever had issues with scanlines on the framemeister in 720p? During motion the entire screen gets all fuzzy and smeared, it's weird. It looks ok in 480p mode. And in any mode it looks like alternating scanlines aren't the same size...

I rarely use this thing but I can't stand CRT geometry issues in games where they are really noticeable.

 

[NormalFish]

Anyone else ever had issues with scanlines on the framemeister in 720p? During motion the entire screen gets all fuzzy and smeared, it's weird. It looks ok in 480p mode. And in any mode it looks like alternating scanlines aren't the same size...

I rarely use this thing but I can't stand CRT geometry issues in games where they are really noticeable.

sounds like your scaling settings aren't right. Scanlines also have some issues with 480i titles.

 

[TeaJay]

Hebereke definitely looks more accurate, though the original composite shot of Blaster Master still looks remarkably... yellow, for some reason. I mean, there's no such thing as a perfectly-accurate NES palette due to the nature of how it works, but still, that's a pretty big discrepancy.

Are these emulator shots? I know that there's the "garish" palette for the RGB mod (playchoice 10?) but I didn't even want that in my RGB modded AV Famicom. I use "improved". It's not quite as high contrast, although it is very colorful.

 

[geniusbits]

My recently purchased 2007 JVC TM-H150CG.

 

[televator]

Did some looking around about Epsxe and it seems it outputs 32bit color. I've yet to see some screen shots.

 

[Rich!]

was without my jvc today as half my house's power circuit was down due to a new boiler being fitted. plugged my sfc jr into my 55" LG HDTV (direct RGB scart input, as standard on TVs here in the UK)

lol

the fuck is up with the zigzag lines? if not for those it would actually look alright. Will give the panasonic 42" a go tomorrow out of curiosity

 

[psylah]

Haven't been using my PVM at all since I got it, really. Didn't strike a chord with me.

I think I'll put it in the closet this weekend.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Haven't been using my PVM at all since I got it, really. Didn't strike a chord with me.

I think I'll put it in the closet this weekend.

i cry everytim

 

[Rich!]

Haven't been using my PVM at all since I got it, really. Didn't strike a chord with me.

I think I'll put it in the closet this weekend.

really? what's wrong with it?

I'm incredibly happy with my PVM:

I can't imagine one that's worse than the alternative (composhit or direct to an HDTV like the two images in my previous post). I've even learnt to live with the scratch on my JVC, although I've managed to fill it in/buff it out enough for it not to be noticeable during gameplay (I ended up discovering vaseline worked best! crazy!)

 

[Peagles]

Welp, may be moving my little retro corner into the lounge so we have room to put a bassinet in our second bedroom...

 

[NormalFish]

really? what's wrong with it?

I'm incredibly happy with my PVM:
I can't imagine one that's worse than the alternative (composhit or direct to an HDTV like the two images in my previous post). I've even learnt to live with the scratch on my JVC, although I've managed to fill it in/buff it out enough for it not to be noticeable during gameplay (I ended up discovering vaseline worked best! crazy!)

I believe they use an upscaler

 

[Beer Monkey]

the fuck is up with the zigzag lines? if not for those it would actually look alright. Will give the panasonic 42" a go tomorrow out of curiosity

TV processors attempting to "deinterlace" 240p (they think it is 480i) get really confused and do weird shit.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Are these emulator shots? I know that there's the "garish" palette for the RGB mod (playchoice 10?) but I didn't even want that in my RGB modded AV Famicom. I use "improved". It's not quite as high contrast, although it is very colorful.

The images with the black bars and "Composite"/"RGB" labels are from some dude's site, presumably taken off original hardware. Of those, the RGB shots are using the old PlayChoice-10 PPU mod (since I'm positive the page predates the NESRGB), which is the "Garish" palette you mention.

The ones without them are indeed emulator shots I took - ones using FirebrandX's "unsaturated" palette, which he recently made to try and work around the shortcomings in the "Natural" palette (that is, while it's pretty accurate, it shifts a little too green in the cyan ranges). You can see some comparisons between the two here.

 

[Khaz]

Welp, may be moving my little retro corner into the lounge so we have room to put a bassinet in our second bedroom...

gg!

 

[Morfeo]

Welp, may be moving my little retro corner into the lounge so we have room to put a bassinet in our second bedroom...

Oh no, its starting....Good luck!

 

[Toppot]

Use AmaRecTV for capture software and see if that helps. It worked for me when I used to have a scart to hdmi converter.

Thanks for the suggestion. I use AmaRecTV with a cheap composite capture device fine. Trying to use my LGP Lite with it just throws up an error, it doesn't display a resolution, it sees the device but no video signal.

I've also tried running the capture through Xsplit but it just picks up the vertical scrolling from the Avermedia software.

 

[Khaz]

the fuck is up with the zigzag lines? if not for those it would actually look alright. Will give the panasonic 42" a go tomorrow out of curiosity

Looks like it's trying to deintrelace a progressive signal. Plus a couple pixels delay on one trame for some reason? idk. Do you have a 480i/576i source to try it out? (dvd, ps2, etc)

 

[Timu]

Thanks for the suggestion. I use AmaRecTV with a cheap composite capture device fine. Trying to use my LGP Lite with it just throws up an error, it doesn't display a resolution, it sees the device but no video signal.

I've also tried running the capture through Xsplit but it just picks up the vertical scrolling from the Avermedia software.

...Get a new one, this doesn't happen to me when I use AmaRecTV.

TBH, I think that Scart to HDMI converter doesn't like luma or csync with the PS1 for some reason.

 

[Toppot]

...Get a new one, this doesn't happen to me when I use AmaRecTV.

TBH, I think that Scart to HDMI converter doesn't like luma or csync with the PS1 for some reason.

I'm using a RGB cable with no sync that i know of, I've tried with a Luma and Csync cable and it makes no difference. Like I've said, it displays fine on the TV just not on the computer.

Hopefully AverMedia will have a solution when they get back to me. I'll probably just keep fiddling with cables and settings until then, I don't really want to fork out for another capture device before I know that mine is faulty and its not the software.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions, I'll be sure to post again in this thread when I get it working or get closer at least.

 

[Timu]

I'm using a RGB cable with no sync that i know of, I've tried with a Luma and Csync cable and it makes no difference. Like I've said, it displays fine on the TV just not on the computer.

Hopefully AverMedia will have a solution when they get back to me. I'll probably just keep fiddling with cables and settings until then, I don't really want to fork out for another capture device before I know that mine is faulty and its not the software.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions, I'll be sure to post again in this thread when I get it working or get closer at least.

It's weird because it worked with my Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD.

 

[theSlacker]

Welp, may be moving my little retro corner into the lounge so we have room to put a bassinet in our second bedroom...

!!!

Congrats,

Spoiler

potentially I guess.

 

[Peagles]

gg!

Oh no, its starting....Good luck!

!!!

Congrats,

Spoiler

potentially I guess.

Hehe yeh it was planned. No way I can lift my PVMs at the moment though, I'm nearing halfway and my back is already feeling fragile. I actually think the retro setup will be pretty cool in the lounge. It looks tidy when everything is packed away and I'd have more space to set up the beanbag and play more often

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Hehe yeh it was planned. No way I can lift my PVMs at the moment though, I'm nearing halfway and my back is already feeling fragile. I actually think the retro setup will be pretty cool in the lounge. It looks tidy when everything is packed away and I'd have more space to set up the beanbag and play more often

Congrats; my wife's about as far along. As such I'm buying zero games this fall.

I'm also in the process of packing all our stuff up (on my own) and moving to a new house. Ended up with nearly 2 stacks of boxes to the ceiling with just games, consoles, controllers, and cables.

 

[Rich!]

Looks like it's trying to deintrelace a progressive signal. Plus a couple pixels delay on one trame for some reason? idk. Do you have a 480i/576i source to try it out? (dvd, ps2, etc)

480i images look fine (tested with a GameCube)

Hm. Never had the issue with my old 42" LG, that was great for 240p content.

 

[theSlacker]

Hehe yeh it was planned. No way I can lift my PVMs at the moment though, I'm nearing halfway and my back is already feeling fragile. I actually think the retro setup will be pretty cool in the lounge. It looks tidy when everything is packed away and I'd have more space to set up the beanbag and play more often

So what you are saying is is that it was all a clever plan to move your retro setup to another room, all while not doing any of the heavy lifting. Well I've heard of worse reasons for having a kid. :3

 

[NormalFish]

Didn't see this posted, but there's a physical 240p test suite for snes in the works. Being sold at cost. Might be useful for those who want to configure PVMs/upscalers without having to shell out for an everdrive.

 

[Rich!]

Didn't see this posted, but there's a physical 240p test suite for snes in the works. Being sold at cost. Might be useful for those who want to configure PVMs/upscalers without having to shell out for an everdrive.

Technically you don't need to buy an Everdrive. All you need is a donor cart, a soldering iron, and a compatible £3 chip from buyicnow flashed with the correct ROM (they do it for you before shipping)

I may even make a few, just got to finish a few custom carts of my own first. The last batch of EEPROMs I ordered were Starfox 2, a SMRPG hack and a few romhacks that require SA-1.

 

[NormalFish]

Technically you don't need to buy an Everdrive. All you need is a donor cart, a soldering iron, and a compatible £3 chip from buyicnow flashed with the correct ROM (they do it for you before shipping)

I may even make a few, just got to finish a few repros of my own first.

That's true, but it's probably more appealing to most to just have someone else -- someone with some proper experience -- do it for them.

 

[Rich!]

Yeah, but what I'm getting at is the cost for it is relatively cheap.

Hell, if there's demand I will definitely start up making them. There's countless shitty sports titles that I could convert to 240p suites if there's a market for it.

 

[NormalFish]

Artemio seems to have a distribution partnership in mind already. It's just not just him manually making repros and mailing them out. If you're interested you should go ahead and PM him. I'm not sure you just doing it without his nod would go over well.

 

[Mega]

I thought it was from 24-bit to 16-bit which caused the dithering. Is it really 16-bit to 8-bit?

A drop in color bit depth would cause banding, not dithering. The latter would be added separately by the devs as they saw fit (eg. to mitigate banding, add depth to low-res, low-color textures with games on Composite displays). Even when creating a gif or low color image from a higher res source, the result is grainy only IF dithering was deliberately added. It does not just occur automatically as a result. Consoles don't dither down to 16 bits.

I must disagree with the wording of missle's statement that dithering kills color resolution. To reiterate, dithering is post processing by the user or programmer or artist as a solution to the initial decrease of color resolution (image quantization). Add all the dithering you want to a 16 or 64 or 256 color image, and the number of colors remain the same.

He means RGB 24-bit to RGB 16/15-bit. 8-bit is color palette mode, usually.

Googling this led me to a few old threads on Sega 16... trying to figure out where he got that PS1 games are interpolated from 16 to 8 bpp. His own PS1 images have well over 256 colors, possibly thousands going by the color counts people were posting of various dithered game screencaps in one of those threads. I ran one Gran Turismo image through Photoshop, set to save as GIF (256 max colors) and in the quantized before/after side by side preview, you can see that hundreds, maybe thousands of colors get dropped. He conceded then that it's something else causing the full screen dithering since the image captures are not 8bpp (and this by itself wouldn't add dithering), so I dunno what he found out since then that's got him back to saying this stuff recently as if it's verified true.

Regarding 32 bit color output in an emulator, what I've gathered is that you would see little improvement as most PS1 textures were a mere 4 bits/16 colors. I may be off base in this comparison, but that seems a lot like running a crappy Internet JPG in Photoshop and trying to manipulate it in order to reveal detail that isn't there. A third-party HD texture pack however would benefit immensely from the emulator running at 24/32 bits and higher internal res.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Hmm, the girlfriend and I have really enjoyed playing Street Fighter III: Third Strike at the local barcade recently (on real CPS3 hardware), and now I'm thinking.

What options are there for playing Third Strike on real hardware on my CRT in 240p? Likewise for Vampire Savior aka Darkstalkers 3 (obviously the PS1 version doesn't count, it is missing frames).

Outside of real hardware, what about low latency emulation with 240p analog output? GroovyMame? Wii Retroarch?

 

[televator]

Regarding 32 bit color output in an emulator, what I've gathered is that you would see little improvement as most PS1 textures were a mere 4 bits/16 colors. I may be off base in this comparison, but that seems a lot like running a crappy Internet JPG in Photoshop and trying to manipulate it in order to reveal detail that isn't there. A third-party HD texture pack however would benefit immensely from the emulator running at 24/32 bits and higher internal res.

It's true that you wouldn't get an explosion of color gradients. You just won't get color that isn't there to begin with. However, removing that god awful cross hatch pattern in games while using an HDTV or HD monitor is a huge improvement in my book. For example RE4 on PS2 is absolutely terrible with it and I wish I could just get the 32 bit original frame without the super obvious dithering pattern.

 

[missile]

... I must disagree with the wording of missle's statement that dithering kills color resolution. ...

I never said that.

Thought it would be clear that I meant - spatial - resolution.

... Googling this led me to a few old threads on Sega 16... trying to figure out where he got that PS1 games are interpolated from 16 to 8 bpp. His own PS1 images have well over 256 colors, possibly thousands going by the color counts people were posting of various dithered game screencaps in one of those threads. I ran one Gran Turismo image through Photoshop, set to save as GIF (256 max colors) and in the quantized before/after side by side preview, you can see that hundreds, maybe thousands of colors get dropped. He conceded then that it's something else causing the full screen dithering since the image captures are not 8bpp (and this by itself wouldn't add dithering), so I dunno what he found out since then that's got him back to saying this stuff recently as if it's verified true. ...

He seem to write a lot, but lacks a bit of knowledge.

For example. He wrote:

... AFIK the PSX has no 256 color framebuffer mode (only 16 and 24-bit per pixel) and in any case, such on the fly dithering would have to be done in hardware as it would be way too CPU intensive to convert on the fly. ...

Not true. That's where his entire confusion comes from as it seems.


Edit:
Dithering is done a lil differently for 2d (static images) and 3d games.

 

[Rich!]

Artemio seems to have a distribution partnership in mind already. It's just not just him manually making repros and mailing them out. If you're interested you should go ahead and PM him. I'm not sure you just doing it without his nod would go over well.

Why should any of that matter? It's open source and I wouldn't be doing this for a profit.

 

[Morfeo]

Hehe yeh it was planned. No way I can lift my PVMs at the moment though, I'm nearing halfway and my back is already feeling fragile. I actually think the retro setup will be pretty cool in the lounge. It looks tidy when everything is packed away and I'd have more space to set up the beanbag and play more often

Sounds good man, just wait untill he/she is old enough to enjoy them with you there! My five year old now is crazy for old games, and its hard to not give in to the temptation of just playing with him all the time lol. Instead I have had to become that parent that always have to talk about how its important to do various things, play outside and that everything should be done in moderation. With 1500 games on the shelves.

So what you are saying is is that it was all a clever plan to move your retro setup to another room, all while not doing any of the heavy lifting. Well I've heard of worse reasons for having a kid. :3

Lol, this is a great plan indeed!

 

[NormalFish]

Why should any of that matter? It's open source and I wouldn't be doing this for a profit.

Just because something is open source doesn't mean selling a product (regardless of whether you're trying to profit, others won't know that for sure) that you haven't contributed to without communicating with devs is okay. Definitely seems to go against the etiquette of these things. Depending on the license there might be other issues.

 

[Rich!]

Just because something is open source doesn't mean selling a product (regardless of whether you're trying to profit, others won't know that for sure) that you haven't contributed to without communicating with devs definitely seems to go against the etiquette of these things. Depending on the license there might be other issues.

Thats of no relevance to me.

If I want to do it, I'll do it and that's the end of that. I quite simply do not give a damn. Sorry!

If you are so against it, I just won't offer you one if I do make some. Others here on GAF are welcome though.

 

[missile]

It's true that you wouldn't get an explosion of color gradients. You just won't get color that isn't there to begin with. However, removing that god awful cross hatch pattern in games while using an HDTV or HD monitor is a huge improvement in my book. For example RE4 on PS2 is absolutely terrible with it and I wish I could just get the 32 bit original frame without the super obvious dithering pattern.

Funny thing is; the Bayer patterns (cross hatch) are optimal on a regular grid.
(optimal: least annoying, class: dispersed-dot ordered dithering)

But I can assure you that there are much better patterns

Spoiler

(pwning everything)

!

 

[NormalFish]

Thats of no relevance to me.

If I want to do it, I'll do it and that's the end of that. I quite simply do not give a damn. Sorry!

If you are so against it, I just won't offer you one if I do make some. Others here on GAF are welcome though.

I'm not against it. At no point did I say that.

I looked it up for you:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite#Physical_releases

Looks good.

Since he's already doing snes, it might be more productive to do another version, though. The more versions are available to those without another method to use them, the better.

 

[Peagles]

So what you are saying is is that it was all a clever plan to move your retro setup to another room, all while not doing any of the heavy lifting. Well I've heard of worse reasons for having a kid. :3

Mwahahaha! Shh don't tell my husband that... I promise I'll move everything else, just not the PVMs or the cabinet!

Sounds good man, just wait untill he/she is old enough to enjoy them with you there! My five year old now is crazy for old games, and its hard to not give in to the temptation of just playing with him all the time lol. Instead I have had to become that parent that always have to talk about how its important to do various things, play outside and that everything should be done in moderation. With 1500 games on the shelves.

I'll be over the moon if they're crazy for games... I been playing since I was 5 too, though having said that I did have other hobbies too and played outside a lot as well. The access was different though... We used to save our pocket money and hire them out usually, and get one game per birthday or at Christmas. With our combined collection and Everdrives now it'd be pretty ridiculous for our kids, lol.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Welp, may be moving my little retro corner into the lounge so we have room to put a bassinet in our second bedroom...

Congrats!!!

 

[Khaz]

The 240p Test suite has been having updates recently. Along with a physical Megadrive release by db-elec, the Megadrive and Mega CD version is now 1.15 with a couple of enhancements:

- manual lag test improved with audio feedback
- audio sync test, with a simultaneous beep and a flash at regular intervals
- scroll test now includes a vertical scroll test with background
- moving between patterns and tests menus is done with left and right, instead of a sub menu.

the SNES has been updated as well.

 

[Toppot]

It's weird because it worked with my Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD.

AVermedia got back to me, its an incompatibility between the upscaler and my LGP Lite. Whether I input RGB or Composite through the upscaler the LGP Lite won't display it properly.

Thank you for choosing AVerMedia.
 
We do not recommend signal converters at all.
The issue your facing is due to lack of compatibility between the 
rgb signal output by the scaler and the input signals that the LGP can accept.
( HDMI out of the LGP is just pass through)
no software bugs here just compatibility.

But,..you tried with Xsplit or OBS just in case?

tested and good working would be our own converter...but this one does not upscale nor modified aspect ratio.
It just convert the analogue to digital HDMI .
You do get better and sharper picture but not full HD.

I have tried OBS and XSplit and get the same results, so its the hardware.

The converter they suggest just converts the plain composite to HDMI with no upscaling, and costs £40. Using my old upscaler I can successfully output a lacklustre composite signal at 720/1080p that works with my LGP Lite, not the ideal solution but its something.

To get a clear upscaled recording of RGB from my PS1, I will either have to buy a more expensive scart to hdmi converter or a more expensive capture card. I'm not sure I'm that willing to pour more money into this little endeavour of mine at the moment.

Thank you Timu and everyone in the thread that has helped and advised me, I'll post in future should I find a solution.

 

[Khaz]

The rep talks about the RGB inputs accepted by the hardware. do you have more information about that? Maybe you could devise a cable to give it 240p RGB directly, and upscale your recording by software?

 

[Toppot]

The rep talks about the RGB inputs accepted by the hardware. do you have more information about that? Maybe you could devise a cable to give it 240p RGB directly, and upscale your recording by software?

According to the websites specifications, the device only supports 640x480 as the smallest resolution. It doesn't mention RGB, it does mention that upscaling is not supported, only their most expensive devices do.

I'll probably try another upscaler at some point as there isn't really anything wrong with the LGP Lite, it captures any console that natively outputs HDMI fine.