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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
No doubt when it comes to the fucked up system of industrial farming we have now.
It doesn't have to be that way, though.
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Vegan parents investigated for neglect after baby son found severely malnourished
- Thread starter entremet
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No doubt when it comes to the fucked up system of industrial farming we have now.
It doesn't have to be that way, though.
Reduce cruelty. I didn't say eliminate. Unfortunately that's impossible. I'd like to live my life on this rock doing at least harm as possible. Especially with things that have brains and such as mine and have fear etc.
Raven Prime
Member
The vegan diet is part of vegetarianism however. Many people use vegetarian for the ovo-lacto-vegetarian variety, but vegetarianism is an umbrella term that includes multiple diets with plant based foods as the basis. There are many who would even argue that veganism is the true vegetarianism. Strict or total vegetarianism is dietary wise exactly the same as a vegan diet, it's only that veganism stands for way more than diet alone, it's an ethical way of life.
Pescetarianism however isn't part of the vegetarian dietary umbrella, since it involves the eating of animals in this case fish. (No major vegetarian association accepts the claim that pescetarians are part of the vegetarian 'family')
Why not? I don't understand how a person can be vegan and not raise their kid vegan. Are you going to learn them to speak another language than your own, at first too? If certain values and principles are important to a person, isn't it normal to share them with your loved ones. When a kid grows up they can always decide on their own, what they'd like. I'm pretty sure though that a lot of kids oppose the idea of eating animals, it's why a lot of people sugarcoat what actually happens to them, or have to create elaborate justifications for them. Just came across this video yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVUh0GTM9M
As for the concern about your baby's health, which of course is understandable, I'm pretty confident that for every malnourished vegan baby, there are dozens if not hundreds that are raised healthy. The issue here is not veganism itself, but the fact that the medical world is still not well versed in the nutritional scope and spectrum of veganism. These parents clearly didn't know what they were doing, and apparently there also wasn't the required medical/nutritional advice to correct it. As someone already quoted, well-planned vegetarian and vegan diets are suitable for all stages of life.
"400 Million Fewer Animals Were Killed for Food in 2014 Because People Eat Less Meat"
Like it or not, but eating less meat does help.
What? How is the vegan diet the proper diet? Humans are omnivores.
A proper diet, not theproper diet. We are omnivores, but that doesn't make veganism not a "proper" diet.
Infinite_Daremo
Member
They're close to levelling up to Vegan.
I struggle to keep track of all the vitamins I need without restricting my diet. I don't know why people would risk this with a baby. Deprive him of taste when he grows up by all means.
Why should he? Maybe he wants his kid to be able to actually eat hot dogs, pizza and all those things then let the kid decide for himself when he grows up
Proper as in nutritionally complete provided you are educated on micronutrient scarcities that come with the omitted food groups.
Mother should probably get checked out too if the baby is deficient.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Help what? Is ensuring that pigs and cows aren't killed for food the ultimate goal or something? Any reduction in meat consumption will probably be replaced with an equal or great amount of something else. Show me the full consequences of an increase in production of those foods and we can then have a discussion about the relative positives and negatives that came about as a result.
I know it's not your quote, but the article you linked had a funny little line:
Saved? That's a delightfully optimistic way of looking at it to put it kindly.
Why not have compassion? What's a life, a brain, an existence.. a meal.
I do get eating meat (albeit something I could never do). But not having empathy I find a little odd.
Uh, yes? Not supporting the slaughter of animals is a major reason as to why people choose a vegan diet. Also, something else? I can't really comment on the consequences of the increase in production of "something else" when I don't know what it is.
Infinite_Daremo
Member
Yes. A bloody tasty one too.
Yea, what do they mean with saved? Did less get born or did they slaughter less? If they slaughtered less, what happened to the animals they "saved"?
Maybe they mean more meat was thrown away.
CO2 emissions.
I assume that it means that they produce less animals to kill, instead of killing them and then tossing away the body because of the slightly less demand.
I learnt long ago not to argue stupid points. I get we're omnivores; you're point comes off a bit cunty. But hey ho. The point is to minimise the pain in the world; and surely unless I'm missing something that can't be a bad thing.
Yea, but thats California's problem.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's the B12, stupid.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm not surprised a vegan thread is turning into another showcase of how distant people are from understanding the production and environmental requirements of the food they eat daily.
Raven Prime
Member
It's simply a classification, a label we project unto the world. Our ancestors of a few million years ago were herbivores, and our bodies are still largely similar to them, just as we are still quite similar to other Great Apes. Whilst we did adapt to the consumption of animal foods, this was to aid general survivability, but perhaps was never ideal. The general health and longevity of tribes that subsist on mostly animal products supports this idea. Since our adaptation to the consumption of animal products we have also mutated in a way that makes a lot of animal products even more problematic to us health wise (Neu5Gc). In many ways even though we have adapted to animal products and are at least behavioral omnivores, I wonder if in a health sense we wouldn't be (still) better described as herbivores.
I eat all those things too, you can be vegan and eat (vegan) hot dogs and pizza. Besides a responsible parent protects it's kid, I don't want my kid to do drugs and alcohol even when all the 'cool' kids do it too.
Are you going to be the plants champion again? I already know that in the end you don't care about plants, since you also dismiss fruitarianism. As I've discussed with you before, our production methods might not be ideal, but at least we can minimize and avoid the suffering of beings that clearly suffer. Those production methods can then be further refined and optimized to reduce collateral suffering. Killing animals however will always involve suffering in one shape or form. And even if it wouldn't, it would still give rise to problems like animal ownership and the encroachment on their rights and freedoms. There is one hopeful prospect though for carnists that can't be satisfied with plant-based alternatives and that's the advent of lab-grown meats, it wouldn't be for me since it would likely still have Neu5Gc and other downsides, but it would remove a lot if not all moral objections to it.
Xdrive05
Member
This story is infuriating to me; the idea that there are people out there who would choose, even if indirectly and in ignorance, to under-nourish their baby.
My wife had low-supply and our little boy didn't eat much for several days. You don't have a good way to tell until they start turning orange for lack of wet diapers. If not for supplimental formula he would have died.
And I know there is an opposite but related problem, where parents will let their young children suck on sugar water and eat bologna for 16 hours a day, and then you have babies with diabetes.
If you're going to be parents then take care of your fucking kids. And if you're going to choose to restrict your diet then take a few minutes actually read how that will affect your kids. You can do it right if you're not a fucking moron.
My wife had low-supply and our little boy didn't eat much for several days. You don't have a good way to tell until they start turning orange for lack of wet diapers. If not for supplimental formula he would have died.
And I know there is an opposite but related problem, where parents will let their young children suck on sugar water and eat bologna for 16 hours a day, and then you have babies with diabetes.
If you're going to be parents then take care of your fucking kids. And if you're going to choose to restrict your diet then take a few minutes actually read how that will affect your kids. You can do it right if you're not a fucking moron.
Well theres dairy in pizza so. And what about all the times youre kid is going to encounter something thats not vegan? You gonna make him not eat at his friends house, or out or at a birthday party? Are you not gonna let him eat ice cream or chocolate or even candy?
Also, wtf with the drugs analogy. We're talking about kids and children. No kids or children are gonna do drugs then make your kid do them.
That's too easy. This case is just a bit extreme because of the age of the child, but vegan children hospitalized because of negligence happens often.
I wonder why the doctor didn't see the symptoms before though, the doctors are normally very strict if they know the parents' eating habit.
Any source on this?
A quick google search will yield you enough
Raven Prime
Member
No there isn't dairy in pizza by default since a pizza is a oven baked flat bread, and perhaps you didn't know but there are many vegan alternatives to cheese and dairy in general.
I don't have kids, and might not conceive any in the upcoming years. Who knows how much society in general will advance in the coming years. Besides that I wouldn't let my kid eat over at a stranger's place, so I'd make sure they knew exactly what my kid would eat and what not. Also again there are many vegan ice creams and candies, and chocolate by itself is vegan, as long as you don't include milk. It's a misconception that vegans are somehow limited in what they can eat, it's just that society has taken the use of animals so for granted that their products are incorporated into many many things, often unnecessarily.
As for the drug analogy, it's to highlight the irresponsible habits of many kids and the parents that condone them. There are enough (older) kids that do drugs and alcohol, so nothing weird about that. It's not only about prevention but also about educating your kid on moral and health issues. Besides that animal products aren't only a tradition for many, but perhaps more so an addiction.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Uhhh... of course they are limited. Come on. There might be vegan alternatives to some products, but not all of them. (lol @ vegan cheese, really)
eyeball_kid
Member
I'm vegan, and I'm not sure whether I would try to raise a kid vegan or not. But the fact that this woman had nutrient deficiencies is sort of the end-of-story for me; if they don't understand what they need in their own diet, she's certainly not going to be able to give the baby what it needs. When you go vegan you really have to get educated about your body's nutrient needs, which is a good thing, but some people seem to think they can just drop dairy and call it a day. You can end up in the hospital doing that.
Frank Serpico
Banned
then they're not a vegetarian, do you think a fish is a plant?
"The problem is, according to Hasselmann not vegan diet per se, but the - conscious or unconscious - renunciation of parents to supplemental vitamin B 12 "It's not that the parents deliberately inflict damage to their children. Either they do not know how important vitamin B 12 is for the development of the nervous system of her child. Or they know it, but want to give it for ideological reasons, not vitamin pills.""
I'm not sure how these parents could be vegan and not know about B12.
I didn't like vegan cheese at first, but now I enjoy it.
this is what I hate about some vegans.
A tremendous amount of the food any American vegan eats likely comes from California, so that's a pretty absurd statement.
entremet
Member
To be fair, many omnivores have dietary deficiencies. Vitamin D is a big culprit mostly due to lack of sunshine.
I know, bro. Pescatarian and all that. Enough with the semantics. You guys get way too caught up on that shit.
Bring something more of substance to the discussion than petty word arguments.
Who the fuck makes pizza without cheese? And you would never let your (hypothetical) kids eat over at their friends house? How is he going to be able to ever sleep over?
Also, vegan candy, ice cream and chocolate? Where can you even find vegan candy? And only dark chocolate (which tastes horrible) "can" be vegan. Even those who are vegan arent.
“Milk-allergic consumers should be aware that 33% of the dark chocolates with no mention of milk anywhere on the label were, in fact, found to contain milk,” "Some say “dairy-free” or “lactose free,” but FDA found milk in 15% of the dark chocolates with this label. And 25% of dark chocolate products labeled only “vegan” were found to contain milk."
And meat and dairy arent irresponisble habits. Comparing them to drugs is just f**king stupid. How is animal products an addiction?
Youre going to be stripping so many things away from your kid if you force them to be vegan. Please dont do that.
Yea, but thats America's vegan-people's problem. I live in Norway so that doesnt affect me
sechsterangriff
Member
I don't want to offend anyone, I'm just honestly ignorant about many things.
While I understand that if you're very careful these things shouldn't happen, but why risk having these sort of issues at all? Why not just have a healthy regular diet (both the mother and the baby) at least until it's safer for the child? It's temporary and there are biological agriculture and other products from sustainable producers.
On a personal note, being a vegan or vegetarian should be a choice.
While I understand that if you're very careful these things shouldn't happen, but why risk having these sort of issues at all? Why not just have a healthy regular diet (both the mother and the baby) at least until it's safer for the child? It's temporary and there are biological agriculture and other products from sustainable producers.
On a personal note, being a vegan or vegetarian should be a choice.
Not everyone is well educated. Hell, I've taught in an elite high school and have been questioning the nutrition choices of my students regularly. And to be fair, it's not like I eat healthy everyday, but because I eat everything equally, chances are my diet is good enough for the last 34 years.
I have no problem with people going vegan.
But a child over 6 months being on a milk only diet? Wow, absolute idiots.
And uh....there is nothing wrong with being vegan in the first year of a babies life (mixing rice with some vegetable stock, sweet potatoes, peas, vegetable curry)
After a year tho, I doubt being vegan is a good choice for a child under five. Vegetarian is fine but it is absolutely not the same
But a child over 6 months being on a milk only diet? Wow, absolute idiots.
And uh....there is nothing wrong with being vegan in the first year of a babies life (mixing rice with some vegetable stock, sweet potatoes, peas, vegetable curry)
After a year tho, I doubt being vegan is a good choice for a child under five. Vegetarian is fine but it is absolutely not the same
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Google isn't a vegan-only product, man. It's weird how you're lashing out here over people eating different food than what you know.
What's a "healthy regular diet"? Think about all of the cultures and foods around the world that you aren't eating.
I think its reverse. During a kids first years they should be getting the right amount of nutrients to grow and develop, that include those from milk and meat. Thats why baby food exists.
Im not lashing out against what adults are eating, im lashing out what their forcing their kids to eat and not eat. Not letting a kid eat animal products in this day and age is f**king absurd. I never once mentioned a "healthy regular diet" so I dont know what youre talking about.
sechsterangriff
Member
I doubt most cultures "children food" can be categorized as strictly vegan or vegetarian. That's not to say you can't be vegan or vegetarian and be healthy.
Vegan cheese pizza exists, I just had one a few minutes ago. I also had a vegan ice cream sandwich today, there are several dairy free brands that sell ice cream (soon ben and jerry's will be added to the list). It isn't like vegans have a lack of options for sweets.
If I had a kid then they could eat non-vegan food at parties if they wanted, but I wouldn't buy them any non-vegan food.
Indeed. I found out recently that it's apparently a thing to water down formula or breastmilk too. I think it was actually in the USA that a couple let their newborn starve to death that way a few months ago. I saw a picture of the kid and the mother in 'happier' times. The poor kid had zero meat on her bones, no way in hell the parents could have missed that. I'm sure they didn't do it on purpose, but infuriating nonetheless.
How often do you actually find vegan pizza's in restaurants or grocery stores? How often do you find vegan icecream in grocery stores, icecream shops or kiosks? Cause I've never in my life encountered any of that. The closest is vegetarian pizza. Vegans do have a lack of options when it comes to sweets. Having to check the labels all the time and not even being able to trust them puts you at a disadvantage to those who can just pick their favorite ice cream. The Ben and Jerry icecream is most likely to be one flavor, opposed to the dozens that arent dairy free. Most candy nowadays have gelatine.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I mean, I get all of this stuff at Safeway and Fred Meyer. I think you just have a blind spot for these products while you're shopping.
Popular sweets that are vegan: Swedish Fish, Oreos, Skittles, Mambas, Mike and Ike. etc etc.
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