• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Venezuela: Mismanagement, corruption and the oil slump are fraying Chávez’s regime

Status
Not open for further replies.
A baby died on a food queue and also an old man.

Damn.

um, protesting is not a coup. Unless you agree that marching should be suppressed.

It kinda is when you say "we are Marching until we get Maduro out of the government"

That shit wouldn't fly in the US.

However the officialism is fucked up. When Chavez won the latest elections he wasn't even able to take position.

So both sides are stupid fucks.
 
A baby died on a food queue and also an old man.

Damn.



It kinda is when you say "we are Marching until we get Maduro out of the government"

That shit wouldn't fly in the US.

However the officialism is fucked up. When Chavez won the latest elections he wasn't even able to take position.

So both sides are stupid fucks.

It did in 1775
 

xbhaskarx

Member
The Economist: A slow-motion coup
The authoritarian regime is becoming a naked dictatorship. The region must react

Venezuela’s “Bolivarian” regime is lurching from authoritarianism to dictatorship. On February 19th it arrested the elected mayor of metropolitan Caracas, Antonio Ledezma. Then it moved to expel Julio Borges, a moderate opposition leader, from the National Assembly—a fate already suffered by his colleague, María Corina Machado, ejected last year. Leopoldo López, another opposition leader, has been in jail for a year and is now on trial. Almost half the opposition’s mayors now face legal action. The regime’s favourite charge to level at hostile politicians is plotting to overthrow the government, often in conspiracy with the United States. But it is the president, Nicolás Maduro, who is staging a coup against the last vestiges of democracy. Venezuelans call it an autogolpe, or “self-coup”.
 

benjipwns

Banned
The hard right-wing neoliberal Economist on the front lines defending yet another fascist NATO-backed coup against a democratically elected leader while painting militant extremist-right forces as heroes. What a shocker.

The regime’s favourite charge to level at hostile politicians is plotting to overthrow the government, often in conspiracy with the United States
They say this like the politicians aren't doing that very thing. Either now or at the next elections.
 
This is the result of Bolivarianism and socialism in South America. As a Brazilian I fear for the future of the continent with our neighbours and our government making bad economical decisions. Good thing Peru, Chile and Colombia are doing well.

I've never heard of Bolivaianism? What exactly do you mean by this?


Also, what about Argentina. All my friends who have been to Buenos Aires says it's one of the nicest places on earth!
 

benjipwns

Banned
I've never heard of Bolivaianism? What exactly do you mean by this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarianism

It was Chavez's attempt to connect his policies and leadership to Simon Bolivar. (Who is a hero in much of South America for leading their independence movements. Kinda like the Founding Fathers in the U.S.) It's mostly just a standard socialist agenda in reality. Nationalizations, social welfare state, etc.
 

jerry1594

Member
I've never heard of Bolivaianism? What exactly do you mean by this?


Also, what about Argentina. All my friends who have been to Buenos Aires says it's one of the nicest places on earth!
The economy was tanking last I heard so the president was raising a ruckus about "Las Malvinas".
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarianism

It was Chavez's attempt to connect his policies and leadership to Simon Bolivar. (Who is a hero in much of South America for leading their independence movements. Kinda like the Founding Fathers in the U.S.) It's mostly just a standard socialist agenda in reality. Nationalizations, social welfare state, etc.

Also a very quick way to determine when someone drank the kool-aid hard.

The problem isn't (or to be precise wasn't) X, but corrupt politicians and shit.

Might as well condense it to the root cause.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
A baby died on a food queue and also an old man.

Damn.



It kinda is when you say "we are Marching until we get Maduro out of the government"

That shit wouldn't fly in the US.

However the officialism is fucked up. When Chavez won the latest elections he wasn't even able to take position.

So both sides are stupid fucks.


Firstly, people have freely assembled in the US to protest the government since the 1700s and are constitutionally pemitted to demand the President and government step down

secondly, people who say both sides are the same, unless talking about a stainless steel washer, are invariably dimwits.
 

FiggyCal

Banned
From theguardian:

Open letter: Venezuela’s coup plot must be condemned internationally


We note with grave concern the announcement of the discovery of a plot to overthrow President Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela in a coup on 12 February (Venezuelan general arrested over plot to topple president, officials say, 13 February). Officials have said the plans included violent attacks on the presidential palace and other government buildings. The thwarting of this latest coup attempt comes as leaders of Latin American countries have warned of a similar situation developing in Venezuela to that which preceded the coup against Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973, which led to the horrendous dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet.

Sections of Venezuela’s rightwing opposition have previously used violent and anti-democratic means to destabilise and seek to overthrow the country’s elected government, most notably the temporarily successful coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002, and many rightwing opposition groups in Venezuela committed to overthrowing the elected, constitutional government continue to receive funding from the US. We call on all governments internationally to respect Venezuela’s elected, constitutional government and condemn this latest coup attempt.

Whoever is in charge of sending these protestors around the world needs a raise. What a fantastic job they do. You know your work is appreciated when other people mention it.

It's not like the US hasn't backed the overthrow of foreign powers before. And in Venezuela again no less!
 

FiggyCal

Banned
Taking the news of a coup attempt at face value? Comparing Maduro to Salvador Allende?

Oh, it's Galloway and Co.

carry on then

I'm not familiar with who they are. Are they known for irresponsible journalism? I thought theguardian was a pretty good site.

Its not journalism. Its an editorial from people notorious for standing with regimes as long as they voice opposition to the west

I realize this was an editorial, I just had no idea who the people were.
 
I'm not familiar with who they are. Are they known for irresponsible journalism? I thought theguardian was a pretty good site.
Its not journalism. Its an editorial from people notorious for standing with regimes as long as they voice opposition to the west
 

benjipwns

Banned
I'm not familiar with who they are. Are they known for irresponsible journalism? I thought theguardian was a pretty good site.

I realize this was an editorial, I just had no idea who the people were.
George Galloway didn't just oppose the Iraq War, he went full blown crazy into supporting Saddam as a great man and leader.

One of the other names on there writes stuff like this: http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10156
Mayoral elections are to be held in Venezuela on December 8. Every mayoralty will be contested and, as is the case in Venezuela's vibrant democracy, both the right-wing coalition and Chavista candidates are busily campaigning up and down the country.

...

Key bodies of the US foreign policy apparatus are very actively intervening in the internal affairs of the country by channelling millions of dollars of taxpayers' money into opposition political, social and media coffers.

President Maduro has denounced the destabilisation efforts saying that the Venezuelan right is not campaigning for elections but is instead focused on "insurrection."

Former vice-president Jose Vicente Rangel - now a well respected journalist - warned of "a terrorist agenda of the opposition seeking to selectively assassinate Chavista leaders, ministers and high military officers, as well as terrorist attacks against the metro (underground), cable cars, state oil company installations, water supplies, supermarkets and electric installations."

Maduro has explained that extremists in the opposition are seeking a "total collapse," exploiting difficulties in the Venezuelan economy to create chaos or, at the very least, to give the strong impression of it among anxious sections of society. It hopes to provoke a "social explosion" that could see the government ousted.

In that context, one major concern is the recent statement by 45 Venezuelan retired military officers - including a dozen generals and admirals and a former defence minister - supporting a military intervention to replace the Maduro government which they claimed "would not be a coup d'état" but "defending sovereignty."

The opposition is characterising the mayoral elections as a plebiscite against the Maduro government. They are seeking to popularise the idea that a setback for Maduro must lead to a new government.

This is a baseless line of argument as the pro-Chavista forces have a two-thirds majority in the National Assembly, 20 out of 23 state governors and 22 of 23 local state assemblies as well as just having just won a six-year presidential term for Maduro.

Furthermore, recent polls indicate that the government coalition will win a majority of the mayors.

In coming weeks calls from anti-democratic sections of the opposition for an end to the Maduro government are likely to get ever more shrill and should they, and their external sponsors, be able to carry out their plans successfully it would lead to a severe setback to democracy and social progress in Venezuela.

In other words, they're speaking truth to power and exposing the American imperialist agenda to roll back the vibrant democracy in Venezuela just like they did in Iraq where Saddam regularly won the support of 95+% of the people.
 

Piecake

Member
George Galloway didn't just oppose the Iraq War, he went full blown crazy into supporting Saddam as a great man and leader.

One of the other names on there writes stuff like this: http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10156


In other words, they're speaking truth to power and exposing the American imperialist agenda to roll back the vibrant democracy in Venezuela just like they did in Iraq where Saddam regularly won the support of 95+% of the people.

Let me guess, they are huge Putin fans as well?

I will never understand the thought processes of this particular type of person.
 
George Galloway didn't just oppose the Iraq War, he went full blown crazy into supporting Saddam as a great man and leader.

One of the other names on there writes stuff like this: http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10156


In other words, they're speaking truth to power and exposing the American imperialist agenda to roll back the vibrant democracy in Venezuela just like they did in Iraq where Saddam regularly won the support of 95+% of the people.

I love this tidbit from his wikipedia.

Early in his career Galloway was an opponent of Saddam Hussein, but changed his opinion of the Iraqi leader when it became Western policy not to support him.[5][6] Galloway visited Iraq in 1994 and delivered a speech to Saddam Hussein. which ended in English with the statement: "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability."[7] He has maintained that he was addressing the Iraqi people in the speech.[8] Galloway testified to the United States Senate in 2005 over alleged illicit payments from the United Nations' Oil for Food Program.[9]

He literally just opposes whatever the west supports.
 

FiggyCal

Banned

Piecake

Member
The article is not that long and is only documenting the US relations with Venezuela. I don't think it's wholly unreasonable to believe that this coup attempt could have had some US support.

But I also don't want to sound like one of the people that Benji is parodying.

only documenting is misleading. This clearly has an agenda and a bias, such a strong bias, in fact, that I would not trust anything that the article says without outside corroboration.

As for support, there has to be evidence for shit like that though. You can't claim that America is supporting the protests and rebels because Valenzuela is a mess and America supported overthrows in its past. I mean, hell, does this rebellion even need American support? Plenty of people are pissed at their government for very good reasons - their economy sucks, there is nothing to buy, and even if they did, most have very little money to buy stuff with due to massive inflation. You'd have to be insane to think that America caused that.
 
The article is not that long and is only documenting the US relations with Venezuela. I don't think it's wholly unreasonable to believe that this coup attempt could have had some US support.

But I also don't want to sound like one of the people that Benji is parodying.

(I don't mean to pick on you so don't take it personally)

This is such a hedge its hard to take it seriously when its repeated.

The US has made it clear they're not fans of chavez/maduro. They've had seminars about organizing and given education to memebers of the opposition There are going to be connections with the US, its the nature of having any kind of relationship. The article exemplifies the kind of glen beck cherrypicking and haphazard linking of unconnected events to draw some grand conspiracy.

That statement also says "I'll find some small connection to say "well I wasn't completely wrong we'll never know the real truth"" or something similar when evident emerges that it was lead by people in venezuela.
 

FiggyCal

Banned
(I don't mean to pick on you so don't take it personally)

This is such a hedge its hard to take it seriously when its repeated.

The US has made it clear they're not fans of chavez/maduro. They've had seminars about organizing and given education to memebers of the opposition There are going to be connections with the US, its the nature of having any kind of relationship. The article exemplifies the kind of glen beck cherrypicking and haphazard linking of unconnected events to draw some grand conspiracy.

That statement also says "I'll find some small connection to say "well I wasn't completely wrong we'll never know the real truth"" or something similar when evident emerges that it was lead by people in venezuela.

You're right.
 
Venezuela built a huge welfare state on their oil. That is just not a sustainable way of running an economy. And they were barely scraping by when the oil price was high. Now that prices have collapsed, the place has got to be drowning in red ink.

The need to slash the gasoline subsidies, slash the social programs, and get some private investment. But the latter will never happen as long as everyone expects to have their assets stolen by the Venezuelan government when they 'nationalize' stuff.
 
*sigh*

Another attempt at socialism ends up with corruption & dictatorship.

:(

TBH it's not like we're short in examples of attempts at capitalism going down the shitter either. Several countries in africa and the middle east can attest to that.

End of the day, corruption corrodes all.
 
You're right.

Like I said I didn't mean to pick on you but that logic.

It is true the US and other regimes do interfear, but its the very nature of international relations. Israel tries to interfear with the US. the US with israel. The US with venezuela, venezuela with the US. Germany with the US, the US with germany, etc etc.

When you have opposing goals its obvious your gonna try to support thing and people that support what you want.

Its just not the same nor comparable as something like the CIA coup in Iran where there was a deliberate and obvious event perpetrated by a foreign country (countries).

TBH it's not like we're short in examples of attempts at capitalism going down the shitter either. Several countries in africa and the middle east can attest to that.

End of the day, corruption corrodes all.

I really don't think socialism nor capitalism are to blame for either. Its a misallocation of resources usually brought about by graft and other corruption.

The only thing calling something a nominally socialist or capitalist regime is the language used (the state or corporations)

Socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive nor are they even really good descriptors for a type of governance or economic organization
 
If oil had stayed high would they still be in trouble?

they'd probably have had more money to slow things down, but this kind of stuff IMO has been coming since about 2004 when Chavez really decided to solidify control through strong armed tactics after the coup against him. It was just a matter of when
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom