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Venezuela plans to introduce supermarket fingerprinting to prevent buying too much

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BadHand

Member
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.


Oh my god.

This is amazing.

And I thought Skullface was the craziest defense force on GAF.

I know it pains people to admit that the overall quality of life has greatly improved since Chavez had been president.

What part do you disagree with? Do you deny that Chavez was popular among Venezuelans, or that he cut the poverty rate and improved the quality of life?
 
Chavez lifted millions of poor out of poverty and was adored by the majority of Venezuelans, it was a slim minority of the very vocal rich that disliked him.

Venezuela isn't a "socialist paradise" as some people have sarcastically pointed out in a pathetic way to discredit what Chavez achieved, but it is much better than the hell it was.
No it's not, I just moved to México because I just couldn't stand living in that shithole anymore. My family has never been wealthy, we've always been "mid-class" at best, my parents always worked theirs asses off to give me and my brothers what we needed. Right now it's pretty much impossible for anyone to aspire to owning a house, a car, fuck, a PS4 is about 10 times the minimum wage (I only got paid slightly more than minimum wage and I had a "good" job).

So I got an opportunity in Mexico, I took it and here with what I get paid in a month I can buy a PS4, a 42 TV and still have money left for food, etc. I know those are "luxuries" but that's just an example so you can understand the shitty economy we live there.

Also here I can walk around at night and not fear for my life and buy stuff in supermarkets :)
 

Metallix87

Member
In the end do the people have what they need? Yes they do. In the end does the work for the people and not the rich capitalist? Yes it does. Do the real Venezuelans love the government? Yes they do.

Chavez led a revolution of change, and change takes time to finish. In the end this will lead to greater prosperity for the real Venezuelans.
You drank the Kool-Aid, didn't you? This is such a bizarre post.
 

BadHand

Member
No it's not, I just moved to México because I just couldn't stand living in that shithole anymore. My family has never been wealthy, we've always been "mid-class", my parents always worked theirs asses off to give me and my brothers what we needed. Right now it's pretty much impossible for anyone to aspire to owning a house, a car, fuck, a PS4 is about 10 times the minimum wage (I only got paid slightly more than minimum wage and I had a "good" job).

So I got an opportunity in Mexico, I took it and here with what I get paid in a month I can buy a PS4, a 42 TV and still have money left for food, etc. I know those are "luxuries" but that's just an example so you can understand the shitty economy we live there.

Also here I can walk around at night and not fear for my life and buy stuff in supermarkets :)

I'm not talking about your shallow materialistic goals when I say "quality if life". The fact you even mention the cost of a PS4 and 42" TV is insulting.

All these social programs, including the subsidized supermarkets are a result of Chavez re-nationalizing the oil industries and sinking the money into supporting the poor and stopping them starving to death. Yet somehow people here have found a way to disparage it.

I have not made any untrue statements and I'm not without criticism for Venezuela. Crime, corruption and economic instability are huge issues for them. However, there are other human rights which matter including housing, health care, education and poverty (all of which Chavez has improved).
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
I know it pains people to admit that the overall quality of life has greatly improved since Chavez had been president.

What part do you disagree with? Do you deny that Chavez was popular among Venezuelans, or that he cut the poverty rate and improved the quality of life?

Chavez turned Venezuela into an international economic and geopolitical pariah. The country is a red hot mess. The topic you are posting in is about fingerprinting citizens because of a scarcity of basic goods.
 

JDSN

Banned
I cant wait to hear how Victor and the rest of venezuelans or other people close to the region arent a true venezuelan because they can speak english and use a computer, all from a guy that read an article or two on Alo Presidente.

Whats going on in Colombia that makes this such an issue?

Essentially, our piece of shit goverment left the north of Colombia to die from starvation and dehidratation and criminals have taken this as an oportunity to take food/water/gas from Venezuela and do smuggle runs accross the border. And the help that is being sent is mostly lost to corruption so the cycle continues. Drug and cash is being sent to Venezuela in return, a big part of it goes to their military which also has been accused of hosting Colombian guerrillas.

I have not made any untrue statements
Dude, you are characterizing anybody that speaks up against the regime as rich loud minority, in a thread about the goverment asking for people's fingerprints to buy toilet paper.
 

benjipwns

Banned
All these social programs, including the subsidized supermarkets are a result of Chavez re-nationalizing the oil industries and sinking the money into supporting the poor and stopping them starving to death. Yet somehow people here have found a way to disparage it.
Maybe it's the whole price controls leading to massive shortages while the government blames and punishes its citizens for trying to acquire basic goods in a rational manner considering conditions.
 
I'm not talking about your shallow materialistic goals when I say "quality if life". The fact you even mention the cost of a PS4 and 42" TV is insulting.

All these social programs, including the subsidized supermarkets are a result of Chavez re-nationalizing the oil industries and sinking the money into supporting the poor and stopping them starving to death. Yet somehow people here have found a way to disparage it.

I have not made any untrue statements and I'm not without criticism for Venezuela. Crime, corruption and economic instability are huge issues for them. However, there are other human rights which matter including housing, health care, education and poverty (all of which Chavez has improved).
Well, as I said that was just a basic example.

At least here I can actually save money every month and it will still be worth something by the end of the year and eventually I can get a nice place of my own or whatever I want to invest my money in and not keep feeding those bad capitalists that want me to work my ass off just so I can pay the rent, etc.
 

Ahasverus

Member
I know it pains people to admit that the overall quality of life has greatly improved since Chavez had been president.

What part do you disagree with? Do you deny that Chavez was popular among Venezuelans, or that he cut the poverty rate and improved the quality of life?

Excuse me, what is your occupation?
 

BadHand

Member
Chavez turned Venezuela into an international economic and geopolitical pariah. The country is a red hot mess. The topic you are posting in is about fingerprinting citizens because of a scarcity of basic goods.

You mean that he intentionally stopped the foreign exploitation of Venezuela's natural resources.

The subsidized supermarkets are for the poor and these measures have been put in place to stop exploitation of those too.

Yes, the economy is a mess (among other problems as I mentioned above) - but I was not talking about the economy, I was talking about the poverty rates and Chavez's popularity when you disagreed with me. I'm asking you to explain why you disagreed with me.

Excuse me, what is your occupation?

This reminds me, I should be working.
 

BadHand

Member
Dude, you are characterizing anybody that speaks up against the regime as rich loud minority, in a thread about the goverment asking for people's fingerprints to buy toilet paper.

Is there much difference between demanding a SSN to collect food stamps? It's a measure to curb exploitation with a dash of western spin.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Is there much difference between demanding a SSN to collect food stamps? It's a measure to curb exploitation with a dash of western spin.

Yes. Foodstamps are actually a fluid currency. Asking for basic id to prove that the "money" belongs to you, is perfectly reasonable.

Asking for fingerprints from citizens to prove they don't have two tubes of toothpaste is lunacy, and you're not only defending it, you're acting as if this is a desirable state.

Chavez was an idiot and he fucked up his country with a cartoonish and ill considered populist blend of communism and isolationism.
 

mantidor

Member
You mean that he intentionally stopped the foreign exploration of Venezuela's natural resources.

I guess if its China, Russia or Cuba then it doesn't count as international exploration.

Giving poor people a bag of beans a month does not make them "not poor", unless you are talling official reports. You have little to no grasp of the reality of Venezuela and the actual daily lives of Venezuelans. You just read propaganda and repeat it.

Also, you can't just ignore the economy when talking about poverty, that is asinine. Economic development is fundamental when talking about solving poverty, these are basic concepts.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Is there much difference between demanding a SSN to collect food stamps? It's a measure to curb exploitation with a dash of western spin.
People purchasing available goods is not exploitation. The shortages are entirely caused by the state attempting to defy nature by enacting price controls which have always and will always lead to shortages.

If they were to eliminate them and stop raiding and stealing goods and imprisoning people like butchers, smuggling would stop, yes, prices would rise but only until supply returned to sensible levels and then likely drop making everyone, especially the poor and unconnected better off.

And like always this isn't doing anything good for the poverty rates, as the government itself states:
The number of households living in poverty in Venezuela jumped from 21.2% to 27.3% in one year, based on official data disclosed by the National Statistics Institute.

Overall, 1.48 million households lived in poverty in the second half of 2012. One year later, the figure totaled 1.89 million, based on the average household income.

The rise in poverty takes place after Venezuela's inflation hit 56% in 2013, which eroded households' income, pushing them into poverty.
The second half of this quote includes some editorializing from Foreign Policy:
In order to calculate the poverty rate, the INE estimates the cost of a representative basket of goods, which includes things such as food, dress, housing, transportation, health, communications, and education. The basket is intended as a representative sample of the type of things an average Venezuelan family consumes during a year. If per capita income falls below the cost of this basic basket of goods, the person is considered poor.

According to this measure, the number of Venezuelans classified as poor shot up in the last year by 1.8 million people. Roughly 6 percent of all Venezuela's 30 million people became poor in the last year alone. The situation is even direr when one looks at extreme poverty, i.e., the number of people whose income cannot even buy a representative basket of food and drink. In the last year alone, the number of extremely poor Venezuelans rose by 730,000. They now reach close to three million people, or roughly 10 percent of the population.

...

The 2012 campaign to re-elect a mortally ill Hugo Chávez meant government spending went into overdrive. Suddenly the oil boom was not enough to sustain ever increasing social needs. That year, the budget deficit soared past 10 percent of GDP. The price of oil had stopped rising by then, and foreign funding began to dry up. While the government continued to enjoy good fortune at the ballot box, the bubble was close to bursting for Venezuela's poor.

Since taking office early last year, President Nicolás Maduro has seen the local currency go from BsF 4.3 per dollar to BsF 50, depending on which exchange rate you use. This means that the prices of most of what Venezuelans consume have shot up as well. Annual inflation is running north of 60 percent, and it is only increasing: The inflation figures for April have yet to be published, but unofficially, it was 5.7 percent for the month alone.

The sharp fall in the standard of living is what brought protesters to Venezuela's streets. Many of the people demonstrating are what we could call "the emerging poor": people who were middle class during the boom, but have found that their economic situation has deteriorated sharply since then.

Ultimately, chavismo's "victory" against poverty is just rhetoric. What little gains there were in terms of poverty were due to a government that turned an oil boom into a transient consumption boom. That phase is now over, and poverty is reverting to its long-run trend.
 

BadHand

Member
Yes. Foodstamps are actually a fluid currency. Asking for basic id to prove that the "money" belongs to you, is perfectly reasonable.

Asking for fingerprints from citizens to prove they don't have two tubes of toothpaste is lunacy, and you're not only defending it, you're acting as if this is a desirable state.

Chavez was an idiot and he fucked up his country with a cartoonish and ill considered populist blend of communism and isolationism.

And this is the heart of the issue - you have read my comments and blindly seen red.

I have never said it is desirable, far from the fact. BUT - it is a country that has improved under Chavez. This is my only point and it is true. Several comments later and you are still unable to tell us why you disagreed with my comment about Chavez being popular and him improving poverty rates.

This is the wonderful gem of an argument you put forth:

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

Oh my god.

This is amazing.

And I thought Skullface was the craziest defense force on GAF.

You can spin all that other shit however you want, without something being done the poor in Venezuela will suffer. These subsidized markets exist only to serve the poor.
 

JDSN

Banned
Is there much difference between demanding a SSN to collect food stamps? It's a measure to curb exploitation with a dash of western spin.

Yes, its a gargantuan difference, one is to provide identification to ensure that the program helps people that its supposed to be helping while minimizing abuse of it, the other is limiting the purchase of goods in an arbitrary manner for the complete population when the reason both rich and poor hoard food is because of the irrregular supply line thanks to the goverment scarying business away. Also, the smuggling isnt done by people going to the store and ordering 4 gallons of water instead of 2, its a large scale, military-backed multimillion dollar industry.

This measure, which include also shutting down the Colombo-Venezuelan border will do nothing but hurt the people, while the supposed people's servants from the regime become the new oligarch.

These subsidized markets exist only to serve the poor.

Not all poors are the same to the eyes of chavism.
 

BadHand

Member
I guess if its China, Russia or Cuba then it doesn't count as international exploration.

Giving poor people a bag of beans a month does not make them "not poor", unless you are talling official reports. You have little to no grasp of the reality of Venezuela and the actual daily lives of Venezuelans. You just read propaganda and repeat it.

Also, you can't just ignore the economy when talking about poverty, that is asinine. Economic development is fundamental when talking about solving poverty, these are basic concepts.


I have never said that giving poor people basic necessities makes them "not poor", I don't know why you quoted me as such.

I'm not ignoring the economy, in fact I've commented on it in this thread. It is a mess. Through the sarcastic cackles, my only retort is that Chavez was popular and helped reduce poverty and increase quality of life.

I haven't made any other fantistico claims about Venezuela no matter how many people want to keep pretending as such.

I'm with all of you in criticizing Venezuela for many many things, but I also give credit where it's due. There's no point attacking points that I haven't made.

On paper that is, we all know how the bureaucracy have worked here for the past decade.

Quite true. But it doesn't change the reason behind their creation. Only makes sense to put measures in place to protect it, no?
 

Harl3

Member
And this is the heart of the issue - you have read my comments and blindly seen red.

I have never said it is desirable, far from the fact. BUT - it is a country that has improved under Chavez. This is my only point and it is true. Several comments later and you are still unable to tell us why you disagreed with my comment about Chavez being popular and him improving poverty rates.

This is the wonderful gem of an argument you put forth:



You can spin all that other shit however you want, without something being done the poor in Venezuela will suffer. These subsidized markets exist only to serve the poor.

These subsidized market existed before Chavez took the control, the only thing that I can say Chavez did well, was the (almost) eradication of analphabetism.

Everything else has been a disaster.
 
In the end do the people have what they need? Yes they do. In the end does the work for the people and not the rich capitalist? Yes it does. Do the real Venezuelans love the government? Yes they do.

Chavez led a revolution of change, and change takes time to finish. In the end this will lead to greater prosperity for the real Venezuelans.

If by rich capitalist you mean an average joe, then by all means you are right. You don't know what you are talking about. No one is getting what they need, and only the crafty and corrupt are getting what they want.
 
Wow . . . big subsidies leads to huge demand . . . who would have guessed!

Pricing matters. Most of the time, you just need to let the market set prices.

But that said, I do think it is very important to introduce subsidies and/or taxes for various reasons such as markets failing to account for externalities (i.e. climate change and pollution) and desired social goals (reduce smoking, limit drinking, etc.).

But subsidies on foods? Not a good idea. The worst subsidies are those subsidized fuel prices in many nations . . . subsidizing something that pollutes? Ugh.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Quite true. But it doesn't change the reason behind their creation. Only makes sense to put measures in place to protect it, no?
Not if it's failing.

But subsidies on foods? Not a good idea. The worst subsidies are those subsidized fuel prices in many nations . . . subsidizing something that pollutes? Ugh.
How about the US double whammy of ethanol? Now that's some good corporate cronyism, both food AND fuel are affected negatively.
 

DSKMan

Banned
Is this enough of a source by the people for you?
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5422

It even properly blames the right-wing oligarch saboteurs running the state-owned companies, likely American supported, for the rotting! If only Chavez knew he could have rooted them out!


Venezuela was ahead of almost every other South American country in most every macroeconomic metric and has since fallen behind in nearly all of them. The entire region improved except Venezuela which stagnated. Despite the oil. And despite the democratic revolution by the people.

Like any revolution you will have small bumps as well as those allied with the old corrupt system sabatoging the changes. These fake revolutionaries will be found out in time, and justice will be done.
 

FerDS

Member
Well. I can't make a new thread and I didn't know where else to put this.

But there's a new law that allows the army to use "guns and other deadly weapons" against protests in Venezuela, it's not very clear when it would be appropiate to use such force, only that it can be used to defend the country.
 
I do find this situation a bit funny, in any western country we would celebrate that hordes of foreign people travel to our country to buy a product. I guess this became an issue because of food shortages.

Correct response isn't to limit buying food, it's to take down the smugglers.
 
The trade is a fucked up situation between two countries and Ive known people in my region being personally affected by it, La Guajira, where the main trade is done is practically a frontier town that is actually ruled by criminals of both sides of the border.

So basically, this wont do shit besides making me laugh when someone comes and tries to defend this.

Corruption sucks in latam sadly.
 
Fiercer critics say the card is the most blatant sign that Venezuela's economy has spiralled out of control. For some, the recent move is nothing short of a Cuban-style rationing card that will sooner or later hamper citizens' economic freedoms.

That's very much the first thought i had. Nothing says "i love my communist paradise" like having the government determine how much you can eat at any given time.
 

JDSN

Banned
A friend got fucked up by the police for taking a selfie on one of the many long supermarket línes to buy luxury items like toilet paper.

So what is the argument to downplay that?
 
Add tax to products to render smuggling unprofitable

get tons of additional tax money doing that

invest tax money in social services for poor people who have trouble with the increased costs of living / reduce other taxes
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Well. I can't make a new thread and I didn't know where else to put this.

But there's a new law that allows the army to use "guns and other deadly weapons" against protests in Venezuela, it's not very clear when it would be appropiate to use such force, only that it can be used to defend the country.

I'm sure it will only be used against the bourgeois hoarders and American sympathizers and not"the people" and if you think about it in a special way, this is a sign of progress for the people, right BadHand and DSK?
 

Ahasverus

Member
Venezuela is going dooown. We on the other side of the border are enjoying the bigger economic and QoL grow of the continent while our brothers starve and are being apalled by some monkey bus driver who speaks to birds. Speak louder and break your chains, I assure you we'll help you rebuild.
 

J-Rod

Member
The Columbia stuff is just a scapegoat. The shelves would not be stocked even if nothing left the border.
 
Well. I can't make a new thread and I didn't know where else to put this.

But there's a new law that allows the army to use "guns and other deadly weapons" against protests in Venezuela, it's not very clear when it would be appropiate to use such force, only that it can be used to defend the country.

Would those be those poisonous darts Chavez was so found of?
 

BadHand

Member
I'm sure it will only be used against the bourgeois hoarders and American sympathizers and not"the people" and if you think about it in a special way, this is a sign of progress for the people, right BadHand and DSK?

I've never excused acts of violence against peaceful protesters - whatever class, whatever country (including the west)... You have no business carrying that statement, nice troll.

You would rather see the poverty stricken in poor foreign countries starve than acts of socialism.
 
A friend got fucked up by the police for taking a selfie on one of the many long supermarket línes to buy luxury items like toilet paper.

So what is the argument to downplay that?

obviously he was getting material for propaganda!

reality has a propaganda bias!
 
A friend got fucked up by the police for taking a selfie on one of the many long supermarket línes to buy luxury items like toilet paper.

So what is the argument to downplay that?

That they should be using bidets instead of toilet paper?

I got nothing
 

Camwi

Member
kKYEbi9.gif

I don't know what that has to do with anything, but it's awesome.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
I've never excused acts of violence against peaceful protesters - whatever class, whatever country (including the west)... You have no business carrying that statement, nice troll.

You would rather see the poverty stricken in poor foreign countries starve than acts of socialism.

I actually support many of the tenets of successful socialism and wish my country would adopt them. But that's not what you have.
 
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