Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Wasn't only Pachter said 720 will cost more than PS4?
VGLeaks rumor: Durango CPU Overview
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
As long as it's in the same league as PS4 tech wise, Microsoft has nothing to worry about. More so than ever, specs won't be driving purchases of these consoles. Both consoles will have games that look similarly flashy, and the average consumer will make his purchasing decision based on other factors. Developers may prefer PS4 development, but that won't matter either because they're handcuffed into developing for both platforms regardless.
specialguy
Banned
I think one of Microsoft's best hopes might be diminishing returns. a concept that used to be my pet peeve to argue against, lol.
I was just a lot less blown away by the Ps4 reveal, specifically KZ4 which looked to be maybe the only real game of the bunch, than I was expecting to be. Maybe it was the whole "not aiming for 8GB RAM" thing, or just early software, but maybe it wasnt. Especially because Guerrilla is one of the devs I most trust to push graphical bounds, something is odd.
If diminishing returns is really starting to effect things, then it will help Durango's assumed power deficit be a lot less noticeable or relevant. If therefore instead of there being a 50% difference in onscreen graphics there is a 10% one, then other factors (price, software, motion controls, casual appeal, OS features) will start to loom much larger.
Some people have access to official microsoft documents. Not everyone though.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
It actually makes sense from a business perspective.
3rd parties are going to put the same game on both the PS4 and Durango. There wont be any major differences between the two. When the performance of both consoles is going to be that similar you need something to differentiate the two.
So instead of taking the extra 60 bucks (just using that number because everyone is saying thats how much Kinect costs to pack in) and upgrading the CPU, GPU, RAM, or whatever else people say is disappointing they use it on a peripheral that some people actually like and allows them to separate from the competition that way.
All MS has to do is release a console that is just similar in power to the PS4. They dont have to match it because they know not many games will take serious advantage of the extra power the PS4 will have.
Expect when 3rd parties start to do stuff not possible on one, or get bad performance that is not correctable on one you cannot mandate away technical advantages.
Gemüsepizza
Member
But those third party games won't look the same. How can people look at these specs and say something like that? There is a very clear power difference. And this will be amplified by the very similar architecture.
I don't think it's so much diminishing returns on the tech side as it is developers being unable to scale up their projects to fully take advantage of the tech. They can't increase their staff by a factor of five or ten this time around, so they'll focus more on the graphical improvements that basically come for free with the new tech.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Maybe, but I find it infuriating to see the Xbox division, set up to bring the best tech and best games to the living room, being turned into some sort of corporate multi media hub, and gaming, it's one time primary purpose, doing the equivalent of settling/retiring into a cardigan & pair of comfortable slippers and quietly drifting into the sunset.
At least Sony have the guts to stick to the core gaming philosophy, which is why they'll be getting my money this time round.
HardtopMental1
Banned
Xbox 360 launched on November 22, 2005. At the time, the fastest ATI card was Radeon X1800XT. But actually Xbox360 GPU is much more in-line with performance of X1900XT that launched in January of 2006. So in fact, Xbox360 GPU was more powerful than the fastest Radeon card at the time (but it was crippled by lower memory bandwidth than the desktop parts). Is there any logical reason to not expect the new next gen system to follow the same exact formula of actually having to match a little bit of foreshadowing technology wise to come? Microsoft knows they are in the driver seat of the console business no way they sit on morals they don't have and just put out a slightly inferior machine to xbox 360 that would just waste everything they build this generation and that makes no logical sense for them. Im glad they beefed up security and no one actually knows what they're doing for once i expect a Microsoft conference in which I know nothing going in.
oldergamer
Member
This just brings me back to these patents we saw a while ago that describe a scalable system http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Patent-Xbox-720-Xbox-Infinity-Transmedia-Gaming-communication-fabric,16281.html
I'm still not sure what the communication fabric is in this patent. Anyway
What if, just what if... these specs are spot on with the GPU, CPU and RAM, but lack the scalable functionality described? We did hear rumors of the 720 being like two pc's strapped together last year.
What if, and again I'm speculating, there's two of these chips and this is what would make the 720 cost more then ps4 AND require it to be subsidized with a cell phone like contract?
I'm still not sure what the communication fabric is in this patent. Anyway
What if, just what if... these specs are spot on with the GPU, CPU and RAM, but lack the scalable functionality described? We did hear rumors of the 720 being like two pc's strapped together last year.
What if, and again I'm speculating, there's two of these chips and this is what would make the 720 cost more then ps4 AND require it to be subsidized with a cell phone like contract?
ionicbluebird
Member
Plus the'll likely be cheaper... oh and hey a DVR.
Gemüsepizza
Member
And you think they are not noticable? You know you are basically describing the console / PC relationship (although the difference between PS4/Xbox3 won't be as big of course)? Quite a few people did choose the platform for their game purchases based on very small differences between both platforms, and they will be a lot bigger now.
oldergamer
Member
There was rumors of MS wanting to subsidize the cost of the expensive console long before pachter said anything about price.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Also i remember last week when i visited 2ch(Japanese BBS) Durango thread,they found out there are 8 IBM persons joined MS at 2010 or 2012,And 4 of them are about PPC A2
Not saying MS will use PowerPC,but it's pretty wired,maybe for BC?
http://www.logsoku.com/r/ghard/1360665976/776
http://www.logsoku.com/r/ghard/1360665976/779
Not saying MS will use PowerPC,but it's pretty wired,maybe for BC?
http://www.logsoku.com/r/ghard/1360665976/776
http://www.logsoku.com/r/ghard/1360665976/779
HardtopMental1
Banned
Those documents are so old and besides those where more practical documents about their vision for their next console you don't put everything youre doing on a document step for step and put it out there knowing your competitors can see it and build around it that's just not logical at all. just wait till the reveal a lot of people are going to be eating crow when they have the most powerful net gen system.
This does kind of make sense to me. Say kinect costs 100 to manufacture. It probably doesn't, but just assume. Lets also assume Sony launches at 450 on the low end.
In order to hold a 100 price advantage over Sony, the non kinect hardware should be specced like a machine to be sold for 250.
Doesn't this kind of make sense it would be a little weaker? I don't know if Mdollar (lolz) will be aggressively loss leading this time. Loss leading is not the right word but whatever.
In order to hold a 100 price advantage over Sony, the non kinect hardware should be specced like a machine to be sold for 250.
Doesn't this kind of make sense it would be a little weaker? I don't know if Mdollar (lolz) will be aggressively loss leading this time. Loss leading is not the right word but whatever.
11/12 months isn't so old.
And most of the stuff is based on presentations to developers
And you do tell them everything.
Well we don't know what else Microsoft has cooking up in their Entertainment and Devices division. But it wouldn't be a bad shout.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Gemüsepizza;48507932 said:
Specs dont mean much when a company has no reason to utilize them.
Give me a reason Activision should spend any time releasing a game on PS4 that is vastly superior to the Durango version. Whether you buy CoD on PS4 or Durango its still just one sale to them. They have absolutely no incentive to spend 1 minute optimizing something for the PS4.
The best you can hope for is something that doesnt require additional effort like a smoother frame rate or slightly higher resolution. A slightly higher resolution is not going to sell me one console over the other.
oldergamer
Member
I've been thinking a similar thing. Also these CPU's listed for ps4 and rumored in 720, are they even fully DX11 capable ( supporting all the DX11 features? Why wouldn't ms be targeting something beyond DX11 like they did with the xbox 360 GPU.
mocolostrocolos
Member
I think VGLeaks doesn't have fake info, but old documents.
AFIK, they had all Orbis specs right but the 8GB RAM, which must have been added recently.
And by recently I mean a couple of months.
I'm pretty sure that games like Knack demoed last week were built with the 4GB kits.
AFIK, they had all Orbis specs right but the 8GB RAM, which must have been added recently.
And by recently I mean a couple of months.
I'm pretty sure that games like Knack demoed last week were built with the 4GB kits.
HardtopMental1
Banned
Thats what I've been saying their chip is suppose to be a custom Ibm chip with some xenon designs for backwards comparability like the opposite gate design. which is why people should not pay attention to all this stupid spec leaks and rumors every one had different sources but same information based on nothing.
something fishy
Member
I feel the same, if these specs are final and nothing has changed in the last 12 months.
fi they have compromised the to shoehorn in Kinect then I sadly won't be getting this xbox and I didn't think that would happen when it was a cracking console for gamers a few years ago.
fi they have compromised the to shoehorn in Kinect then I sadly won't be getting this xbox and I didn't think that would happen when it was a cracking console for gamers a few years ago.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Gemüsepizza;48507932 said:
I think so as well, but unlikely massive difference - two different engines etc.
Resolution and image filter should be easy to change without additional lot of code. So I think we will see lot difference on resolution and filter from both systems.
Team Filler
Member
Except if your name is "Nintendo".
But it has happened before. Madden was 60 fps on 360 and 30 fps on ps3 one year. It isn't in their interest to make shitty versions of games but it happens a lot.
Double framerate counts as vast to me but I take your point.
Opus Angelorum
Member
Killzone : Shadow Fall was running on a 1.5GB development kit so it might suggest the final hardware only came together very recently.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
How long before?
oldergamer
Member
when it comes to hardware technology, or more specifically graphics? yeah a year IS old.
But they're in a unique position in that they know Sony can't afford to heavily subsidize. If they sell a 720 + Kinect bundle at $350 and it costs them $450, they'll guarantee faster uptake and would likely only lose $1-1.5 billion in subsidies before the cost curve catches up. That's a relatively small cost to pull significantly ahead at the beginning of a generation.
I think consumers in the upcoming generation will be more price sensitive than ever. I can't see a $400+ console selling consistently well for 12-18 months without a price drop.
specialguy
Banned
Gemüsepizza;48508014 said:
Too the overall layman, it's arguable that PS3 was perceived as the much more powerful system this gen, right or wrong.
And that didn't help it crush 360 in sales.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Expect when you spend 7 years designing a console.
It won't change, end of story, this needs to end.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Well this was probably more due to one machine being more difficult, not less powerful.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. We have two big players with similar architectures, one of them more powerful (by how much we'll probably see in April) and both have the same 3rd party support.
Neither was ever in such a position since they entered the console business.
oldergamer
Member
mid - late last year if I recall?
HardtopMental1
Banned
Not really you give them a parameter of what to expect and what you want them to design around now you can bump up specs or lower them remember original 360 games where being developed on pc hardware based on what Microsoft told developers the final gpu where not made available to developers till late 2005 couple months before the system launched which is why most people where complaining 360 games didn't look next gen at the time only looking like high res xbox games especially the launch games which is why gears was pushed back lot of people forget this.
Opus Angelorum
Member
Rumoured, I might have added.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
If they have poor uptake from used game locks and always online DRM then the mandate might be meaningless anyway.
prag16
Banned
Gemüsepizza
Member
I can't imagine Microsoft bullying big companies like EA, Ubisoft or Activision. After all third party games have to compete with Sony's first party output, and it's much easier to convince consumers to switch to nextgen if your games look better. It's Microsoft's job to produce a competitive console, not the job of third party devs.
If the publishers end up making more as a result of these practices, in spite of lower sales, they'll still be happy with the platform and still be obligated to tow the Microsoft line.
gaming_noob
Member
Just one month and 26 days until we find out. Boy that feels too far away..
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Long enough to make it meaningless(for hardware cost).
oldergamer
Member
Not only this, but realistically, the only differences between the two systems IF they do have similar hardware:
1. Framerate
2. Resoloution
3. Available memory
4. Available cpu cycles.
if both systems end up using these cpu's and gpu's. that's all it's really going to come down to. That's really all it came down to this current generation. the only difference in games between xbox and ps3 was one or a combination of those points above. There's no graphical effect one system is capable of that the other system is not.
dead monkey uk
Member
This is very good news, plenty of room for improvements before release. It could be possible that no launch titles will have been developed on final development hardware.
There will be meltdowns on GAF no matter what.
Opus Angelorum
Member
I wish it was sooner, because then all of this nonsense (born of rumour) would go away.