Vice-Presidential Debate |OT| The Big F$@*ing Deal vs. The Randian from Dairyland

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Open Source said:
We have a debt ceiling for a reason:
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No . . . we really don't. If Congress doesn't want to spend so much money then they should NOT SPEND SO MUCH MONEY. But they are a bunch of fucking pussies if they spend the money and then later decide they should not have spent it. The whole debt ceiling bit is kinda crazy and mostly just political posturing.
 
Open Source said:
We have a debt ceiling for a reason: to slow down the accumulation of debt and to make Congress make some of those hard decisions they find impossible to reconcile with their reelection campaigns.
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But the government doesn't have to accumulate debt in the first place. It creates money. I'm not trying to be flippant here. If you can't explain why the government has to accumulate debt, then this is all so much nonsense. Can you explain it?
 
Open Source said:
We have a debt ceiling for a reason: to slow down the accumulation of debt and to make Congress make some of those hard decisions they find impossible to reconcile with their reelection campaigns. Cut spending, hike taxes, do SOMETHING to produce a sustainable budget. It's there as a last resort to keep an irresponsible Congress in check, and unfortunately Congress continues to fiddle while Rome burns. For them it's all play money that's to be directed in the way that best accommodates their election prospects, and a future where we turn into Greece or Spain or Ireland or whatever is someone else's problem. Not to say I think the brinksmanship was called for, but it takes two to get to that point.

But no, it's all about white people being so white and stupid.
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I'm white.

And I think it's hilarious (and convenient) that they chose to do so when the first African American president was in his first term, and government growth had slowed to a level unheard of in more than a generation.

But no... it's because it was a necessary evil. And not part of their party plan ensuring the black guy was a "One term president."
 
Black Mamba said:
Are we now back to the GOP whining about when a Democrat acts tough?

For months it was Mitt and Ann crying about the Obama administration mentioning Mitt's taxes, Bain record, Mass record, or anything that had to do with Mitt.

And the GOP followed.

This week they're complaining about democrats saying Mitt lies and now that Biden wasn't a choir boy in front of Ryan.

Boo fucking hoo.
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Yeah, its pretty sad.
 
Duffyside said:
I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate.
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Jack_AG said:
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.
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QRpzM.gif


Ryan truly did get curbstomped if people are this incensed with Biden being a big bully
 
Hey Open Source.

I wanted to preemptively apologize for implying that you said it was a necessary evil. You didn't. But the defense of the indefensible makes me itchy.
 
Its the same as when Democrats run attack ads suddenly this is the most negative election we've ever seen nevermind 2004. Dems get tough, Republicans call them big meanies, and the press eats it up.
 
Lol 2004

Fox News calling Kerry a frenchman had me in stitches.

How they managed to get away with it make it an actual effective slur against the candidate was beyond me.
 
What a difference watching makes versus just listening to it. Those Biden smiles are so hilarious. God bless our amazing VPOTUS.
 
empty vessel said:
But the government doesn't have to accumulate debt in the first place. It creates money. I'm not trying to be flippant here. If you can't explain why the government has to accumulate debt, then this is all so much nonsense. Can you explain it?
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To maintain confidence in the dollar as a medium of exchange. If money and wealth are divorced, then that confidence vanishes and we go back to the barter system. Money has no intrinsic value, which is why the government can create as much as it wants. The value is determined by how accepted it is as a medium of exchange, which in turn is determined by fiat, sure ("this note is legal tender for all debts public and private"), but also by scarcity.
 
Jack_AG said:
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.
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I think he was laughing at the gall of Ryan talking absolute bullshit and then nailed him with facts everytime he got the chance.

However, I've only seen some highlights, not the entire thing.
 
Open Source said:
To maintain confidence in the dollar as a medium of exchange. If money and wealth are divorced, then that confidence vanishes and we go back to the barter system. Money has no intrinsic value, which is why the government can create as much as it wants. The value is determined by how accepted it is as a medium of exchange, which in turn is determined by fiat, sure ("this note is legal tender for all debts public and private"), but also by scarcity.
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ehlxld.gif
 
watershed said:
Its the same as when Democrats run attack ads suddenly this is the most negative election we've ever seen nevermind 2004. Dems get tough, Republicans call them big meanies, and the press eats it up.
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As much as I disliked Kerry for being a dull stiff, swiftboating was reprehensible beyond belief. It's only fitting that such BS is linked with the worst presidency in US history.
 
Jack_AG said:
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.
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He was laughing and smirking because Ryan was horribly wrong on many, many issues. He literally could not take him seriously. I totally understand how hard it would be to not laugh in Paul Ryan's face, because Paul Ryan is completely out of touch, and offers no real solutions. When you're smart enough to realize that and you have the facts on your side, it'd be extremely hard to NOT laugh in his face.
 
Dartastic said:
He was laughing and smirking because Ryan was horribly wrong on many, many issues. He literally could not take him seriously. I totally understand how hard it would be to not laugh in Paul Ryan's face, because Paul Ryan is completely out of touch, and offers no real solutions. When you're smart enough to realize that and you have the facts on your side, it'd be extremely hard to NOT laugh in his face.
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"Listen, you're young, but if you can't convincingly lie yet, just do what I do and say whatever stomps into your head."
 
empty vessel said:
It doesn't matter, quite frankly. Did you know that the Australian government ran surpluses for many years, but still issued "debt"?* Know why? Because the private sector demanded it. Why? Because the "debt" (which is not real debt as you and I know it, but promises to create and spend money in the future) of a government is the most secure investment in the world. When you think about it, it puts the lie to capitalism. But never mind that.

* The Australian government could run surpluses without causing a major economic recession only because Australia is a net exporter. The US is a net importer, and therefore must have a government that deficit spends if it wants to have an economy that grows.
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All good points, just wanted to add one point: what many people and net exporters like Germany tend to ignore is that since my spending is your income, someone out there has to import and run deficits in order for a country to run a surplus. And yet that's exactly what Germany keeps preaching to the EU, Greece and the US...

Also, it's incredible that 40 years after the dollar went fiat, virtually every single person still believes the same constaints exists as did with a gold standard.
 
Jack_AG said:
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.
Click to expand...

TuCNX.jpg
 
DrForester said:
Biden came off as an asshole. He had all the substance, but that stupid grin, and interrupting all the time doesn't come off well.
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That's a bunch Of bullshit. Have you eer had to sit next to someone who's lying their ass off and you have to wait your turn to say "This mother fucker is lying his ass off."? Sometimes all you can do is just smile, wait your turn and set the record straight.
 
Biden's sole job last night was to rally the base and make them feel a little better after the lackluster Obama performance. If he can win over a few independents while he's at it by spewing facts instead of vague nonsense then all the better.

Everyone who had their mind made up for the GOP in this election will see him as a bully or not serious and will play that up to no end. Everyone who had their mind made up in voting for the Dems found it refreshing that somebody was being honest and giving a decent amount of detail and facts.

In retrospect the giggling and smirking could of been dialed back a bit but at the same time Ryan was talking out of his ass most of the night and giggling and smiling is better than Joe getting pissed and cussing the guy out.
 
deviljho said:
There is a growing movement to see the fee based treatment model be replaced with a performance based model. Preventive care will save lots of money over the long run. There will also be an added incentive to create treatment structures that are flexible enough to manage patients who have a varying risk of being hospitalized.
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I support the ACA, but this clause about performance-based reimbursement is genuinely troubling, and all of the physicians I've spoken to about it agree.

The problem is that there are no actual specifics about how this is going to work, at this point. And what's troubling about a performance-based pay schedule is that, in theory, it will punish the physicians and clinicians who choose to work in high-risk areas and encourage primary care to dump patients who are a liability.

The medical director of my program, for example, chooses to allow a high volume of disability patients, prisoners, and drug addicts into his practice. The reason he does that is because he genuinely wants to help those who are in the worst position. His outcomes are going to be lower than his partner, who doesn't see as many of those patients. And that's not his fault either. He doesn't deserve less money because his outcomes are worse. If anything he deserves more because he's helping the people who truly need it.

EDIT: I misremembered how much of quality-based reimbursement was actually in the ACA. So the statement here should just refer to the concept of quality-reimbursement in general, not the ACA.
 
Duffyside said:
I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate. How you treat people affects what you can get done in Congress, as well as internationally. That's what I would have jumped on, in my closing comments at the very least. "I invite everyone to notice who has been disrespectful, interrupting, giggling about these serious issues all night. And we all wonder why we can't get anything done in Washington. Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents, as evidenced by the fact that they pushed through Obamacare completely against your wishes. Romney/Ryan won't behave this way, blahblahblah."
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What a joke, you are suggesting that we should vote in a Republican to the White House because congressional Democrats are not obstructionist assholes like their Republican counterparts. L.O.L.
 
Open Source said:
To maintain confidence in the dollar as a medium of exchange. If money and wealth are divorced, then that confidence vanishes and we go back to the barter system. Money has no intrinsic value, which is why the government can create as much as it wants. The value is determined by how accepted it is as a medium of exchange, which in turn is determined by fiat, sure ("this note is legal tender for all debts public and private"), but also by scarcity.
Click to expand...

It has come to my attention reading this thread that I have very little understanding of monetary systems, is there a good online source to read up on such things?
 
My interpretation of the debate:


"Can you give us more detail about the Republican domestic policy?"


"Look, this is how I see it, I have a friend from Wisconsin who...."


Who isn't going to giggle at that?
 
gdt said:
Any highlight reels around?
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He's not being sarcastic. From to beginning to end Biden is being a complete dick to Ryan. There will be, I'm sure, much discussion on how much truth came from both men (hint: Biden is on the greater end of that scale) but if you want to see a grown man get treated like a child by the Vice President of the United States and you have a hour and half, grab some whiskey, get some chicken wings, get naked, and watch the whole damn video.
 
Just watched it. Easy win for Biden. Yes I'd be laughing too, because some of the stuff Ryan said was indeed laughable. Biden might have gone a bit too far but you could see he was just bewildered or at times angered. Ultimately, the biggest thing to me was that Ryan, like Romney, just could not give straight answers on some of the most important issues, especially on the economy and military. The dodging tactics and lack of specifics was mind numbing. How its this close is beyond me. I want specifics.

Also, over the debate it occurred to me that many of the things the GOP were contesting were things that would cut the budget, tax cuts to the wealthy or military etc, and stuff the Republicans were pushing all seemed to add to it, with magic loopholes that would supposedly pay for it, loopholes that are yet un known. It's idiotic really that they can get away with such a vague campaign.
 
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