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Vice-Presidential Debate |OT| The Big F$@*ing Deal vs. The Randian from Dairyland

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deviljho

Member
I am disappointed that the $716 billion in medicare "savings" is never truly explained and why it is a bad thing. It is not a cut to benefits but a cut of payments to practitioners. I know many doctors (relatives being some, my own doctor as well) that have stopped seeing new medicare patients and are trying to see less medicare patients overall. The doctors that are not bought out by hospitals, which is rarer and rarer now days, are small businesses that have to make choices. If the now reduced payout from medicare is less than the cost of doing the test, the time needed to perform it, and possibly the outsourced lab work, it no longer makes sense to see these patients.

There is a growing movement to see the fee based treatment model be replaced with a performance based model. Preventive care will save lots of money over the long run. There will also be an added incentive to create treatment structures that are flexible enough to manage patients who have a varying risk of being hospitalized.

Tests are not the only thing that will have to change in this country. You simply cannot pay to treat costly illnesses for a large number of people, especially when you could avoid those illnesses (like diabetes). And as far as testing goes, it's important to use science to determine whether a test result could improve the actual prognosis. Statistics are important, but what is more important is getting current medical knowledge/data to carry over quickly to the policy and fiscal side of things. Just look at how we have been going about treating prostate cancer for the last 20 years. In the next 20 years, the approach will be much different cause many people with prostate cancer wind up dying of some other cause.
 

Wall

Member
MMT is not separate from modern macroeconomics. It is modern macroeconomics. It is in the Keynesian tradition. It simply recognizes the post-Keynesian transition by governments away from monetary systems based on convertibility to modern fiat monetary systems.

Thats pretty much what I thought. I just wanted to emphasize that MMT really isn't that exotic. It might be counterintuitive to some, but at least to me it seems like pretty standard stuff. I remember the Krugman blog post the other poster referenced. I could see the theoretical point they were arguing (and that I think you are alluding to), but for the life of me I couldn't find any pratical difference between the two positions. If anything, it seems like MMT is an acknowledgement of something that was a reality for as long as governments minted coins or printed currency. Its not like governments never took steps to alter the money supply ( e.g. silver vs. gold standard debate, changes in the pegs at which paper currencies exchanged for gold, actually changing the amount of gold in coinage in order to mint more currency, "leaving" the gold standard ect.) before the formal adoption of fiat currency.
 

antonz

Member
This is sad and too true. Truth doesn't seem to mean anything anymore, you can lie as much as you want as long as you look good doing it.

This is not some new thing. Debates have never been about the substance really. All the way back to Nixon/Kennedy. Nixon lost because on TV he looked terrible even though it was generally agreed he owned the debate on topics etc.

He looked nervous and rattled and it resonated hugely with the public while JFK looked calm and composed and thus Presidential
 

Jack_AG

Banned
No the fact that you think laughing and smirking is more important than the actual content of the debate is what wrong with politics. How do you react when you hear bullshit?

No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.
 
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.

If the last two debates have proven anything it's that aggressive douchebags are seen as winners.
 

pigeon

Banned
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene.

Hey, now. He laughed and smirked and THEN discussed the actual issues. He's the total package!
 

Sobriquet

Member
This is excuse making. The VP was smirking/laughing and interrupting regardless of whether Ryan was saying was controversial or not.

He would laugh every time Ryan said an outright lie. If someone came up to you and said the sky was green, you would laugh, right? That's what happened, over and over again.
 

royalan

Member
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.

When the future of the country looks so bleak I would rather give the reigns to a man who has the better grasp on the issues and the clearer plan and experience. Not the guy who was nicer.
 

Sye d'Burns

Member
Bill Maher said:
"Romney looked like the big winner and Obama looked like the Big Lebowski. He sucked. He looked tired. He had trouble getting his answers out. Looks like he took my million and spent it all on weed."

With regards to Biden's case of the giggles, it's good to know Obama gives Biden his fair share.

It's always fascinating to watch the varied reactions.
 
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.

Biden even mentioned he probably came off a bit too much because he was showing his frustration.

Dude is annoyed by all the lying and bullshit being spewed by the Romney-Ryan campaign.

it's lie after lie after lie and that's his natural way of reacting to it as they happened.


But in US politics it's a dog and pony show. Lying matters less than how you look doing it.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene. Not that someone calls him out on it. You jump on someone for focusing on his actions yet don't jump on Biden who performed them? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Peanuts brings up valid points that Biden would be laughing, smirking, etc when in debate over the future of America. That is fucked up.

Ryan lost the shit out of the debate but don't be blind to Biden's obvious detatchment to critical issues. He was on stage acting like a child. The future of the country looks bleak as shit and he laughs about it? This is serious shit we're in right now and he should take it seriously.

Is this how we expect our elected leaders to act? Like children? If so then this country deserves everything it gets by handing the reigns over to children.

Man up, show some class. Its not like he wouldn't have wiped the floor with Ryan had he held back his inner 5-year-old.


this is all you can grasp on when it comes to our livelihood? i'd rather that the sensible jackass laughing be in power than the absolutely obtuse lying jackal be there
 
No, you're the one trying very hard to make excuses for Ryan flubbing every answer of substance by talking about shallow appearances. I'm very sorry to hear that style completely supercedes all substance in your judgment.

I would say that attitudes like yours are precisely what's wrong with American politics and governance. It's okay to lie, to be wrong, to lose an argument, as long as you look good doing it. You are not only enabling but encouraging the very worst sort of politics that democracy can offer. You're part of the post-truth society advocating for an American Idol election.

Depressing. I would not be shocked if you confessed to being a Palin fan.

Anyone who wants to say Ryan lost the debate on substance is fine by me. I don't really care about that partisan stuff. You can find many people who think the exact opposite. As far as I'm concerned when it's this split it's just an opinion not a true/false thing. And I felt many analysts went overboard last week saying how much the President lost as though he didn't make a single good point during the entire debate.

The fact that I disagree that Ryan's an idiot doesn't mean I think he won the debate. I think he won on style in proving he has a command of many issues and not carrying himself in a way unbecoming of the office of President. Nobody is voting on the basis of Ryan in this election. If he did what Biden did I would be pretty disgusted with him though, probably even more so since he was talking to the VP and he isn't as well known as Biden.

It's not okay to lie. It's just ridiculous to believe that Joe Biden and Barack Obama do not lie and only the other side's politicians lies. You should realize that a politician is a professional liar. Labeling one side liars and the other side truth tellers is just juvenile. I don't trust anything either side ever promises.

I don't consider laughing hysterically while someone else is talking as proof that your opponent is lying though. It's just distracting and makes you look like a disrespectful jerk. And yes it would be worse if Ryan did that to Biden since the VP office deserves respect from a challenger. The fact checkers can prove who lied or told the truth, laughing doesn't prove anything other than you don't have the demeanor to engage the opposition respectfully.
 
Thats pretty much what I thought. I just wanted to emphasize that MMT really isn't that exotic. It might be counterintuitive to some, but at least to me it seems like pretty standard stuff. I remember the Krugman blog post the other poster referenced. I could see the theoretical point they were arguing (and that I think you are alluding to), but for the life of me I couldn't find any pratical difference between the two positions. If anything, it seems like MMT is an acknowledgement of something that was a reality for as long as governments minted coins or printed currency. Its not like governments never took steps to alter the money supply ( e.g. silver vs. gold standard debate, changes in the pegs at which paper currencies exchanged for gold, actually changing the amount of gold in coinage in order to mint more currency, "leaving" the gold standard ect.) before the formal adoption of fiat currency.

This is true, and a deep insight. Even Keynes recognized that, at root, monetary systems based on convertibility were ultimately fiat monetary systems in that governments could always dictate the convertibility rate. In other words, governments always dictated what "money" would be. This is by virtue of their taxing authority because governments, alone, had the power to say what money they would accept in payment of taxes, and everybody had to be in possession of that money to pay taxes or face the consequences. However, the transition to "real" fiat monetary systems nevertheless has real effects, because it freed governments from having to actually acquire and hold the underlying commodity for whatever they dictated the convertibility rate to be, which always imposed a constraint on the government's ability to ensure optimization of the economy with an adequate money supply. If governments were short of that underlying commodity, they had to borrow. In the real sense, not "borrow" their own money as they do today, which is a fiction.
 

Evlar

Banned
Thats pretty much what I thought. I just wanted to emphasize that MMT really isn't that exotic. It might be counterintuitive to some, but at least to me it seems like pretty standard stuff. I remember the Krugman blog post the other poster referenced. I could see the theoretical point they were arguing (and that I think you are alluding to), but for the life of me I couldn't find any pratical difference between the two positions. If anything, it seems like MMT is an acknowledgement of something that was a reality for as long as governments minted coins or printed currency. Its not like governments never took steps to alter the money supply ( e.g. silver vs. gold standard debate, changes in the pegs at which paper currencies exchanged for gold, actually changing the amount of gold in coinage in order to mint more currency, "leaving" the gold standard ect.) before the formal adoption of fiat currency.
Read this for the counter-point from Krugman: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/mmt-again/

Essentially he claims that MMT is wrong if it states that paying loans by printing money has the same effect as paying loans by selling bonds. I don't know whether he is correctly describing MMT or not, but I think that it is clear one side at least certainly believes there is a gap between MMT and orthodox Keynesian economics.
 
lol, there seems to be some amazing tone trolling going on after tonight's debate.

I do find it amusing that it now comes from a political movement that generally thrives on criticizing "political correctness"
 

pigeon

Banned
Anyone who wants to say Ryan lost the debate on substance is fine by me. I don't really care about that partisan stuff. You can find many people who think the exact opposite. As far as I'm concerned when it's this split it's just an opinion not a true/false thing.

It's not okay to lie. It's just ridiculous to believe that Joe Biden and Barack Obama do not lie and only the other side's politicians lies. You should realize that a politician is a professional liar. Labeling one side liars and the other side truth tellers is just juvenile. I don't trust anything either side ever promises.

BREAKING: Ryan viewed as more presidential among people who don't believe that facts exist, matter

Seriously, what is it this week?
 

Duffyside

Banned
It might just be an expected outcome from all of the C-SPAN I've watched, but if you ever happen to watch "question time" from the United Kingdom, you wouldn't even be phased by Biden's demeanor. Debates and discussions in other countries can be way more heated and partisan than any of the debates that I've seen in the United States. All that should matter in the end is the content, in my opinion.

I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate. How you treat people affects what you can get done in Congress, as well as internationally. That's what I would have jumped on, in my closing comments at the very least. "I invite everyone to notice who has been disrespectful, interrupting, giggling about these serious issues all night. And we all wonder why we can't get anything done in Washington. Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents, as evidenced by the fact that they pushed through Obamacare completely against your wishes. Romney/Ryan won't behave this way, blahblahblah."
 

Evlar

Banned
I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate. How you treat people affects what you can get done in Congress, as well as internationally. That's what I would have jumped on, in my closing comments at the very least. "I invite everyone to notice who has been disrespectful, interrupting, giggling about these serious issues all night. And we all wonder why we can't get anything done in Washington. Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents, as evidenced by the fact that they pushed through Obamacare completely against your wishes. Romney/Ryan won't behave this way, blahblahblah."
You wish Ryan would lie to you some more? Because if you truly think a Romney presidency would be content to let Obamacare stand if they can't get Democrats on board with repealing it, then I have this old title deed to sell you! I don't really know, but it sure looks like a deed to some bridge near Manhattan...
 

royalan

Member
I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate. How you treat people affects what you can get done in Congress, as well as internationally. That's what I would have jumped on, in my closing comments at the very least. "I invite everyone to notice who has been disrespectful, interrupting, giggling about these serious issues all night. And we all wonder why we can't get anything done in Washington. Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents, as evidenced by the fact that they pushed through Obamacare completely against your wishes. Romney/Ryan won't behave this way, blahblahblah."

Well, to be fair, Ryan was also wearing a smarmy grin on his face whenever he thought he had a leg-up on Biden (particularly during the Abortion segment). Granted, not nearly as severe as Biden's "you're so fucking full of shit" laughing, but definitely present.

Also, I think Biden can rest on his record with how willing and capable he is to get things done with Congress and work with Republicans, and not rely on his facial expressions during a debate. It would have been an infinitely childish point of Ryan to attempt to make. Akin to a child whining to his parents that a boy down the block had been mean to him.
 
Read this for the counter-point from Krugman: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/mmt-again/

Essentially he claims that MMT is wrong if it states that paying loans by printing money has the same effect as paying loans by selling bonds. I don't know whether he is correctly describing MMT or not, but I think that it is clear one side at least certainly believes there is a gap between MMT and orthodox Keynesian economics.

Scott Fullwiler's response (economics professor commenting on the blog):

There you go again. You haven't said anything new in the five or six anti-MMT posts you've done. You are still using an inapplicable model of the monetary system. Every point you make about it is wrong as I've explained here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1723198

At any rate, let's look at a few points you've made.

First, if the deficit is too large, why not raise taxes or cut spending? Are you also assuming we wouldn't do that? We don't have any inflation now and we just had a deal to cut over $2T from upcoming budgets, dysfunctional as things are.

Second, you gloss over the key point--"for whatever reason" the Tsy can't sell its bonds except at a significant premium. What are those reasons? That is the core point--you've essentially waved your hands and assumed virtually everything MMT says away. That doesn't prove anything. That says "I win because I assume the other guys are wrong."

Third, banks don't lend currency. Banks don't lend reserves. As I said, your understanding of the monetary system is deeply flawed. If you don't want to take our word for it, go see what Claudio Borio at BIS says about the money multiplier model.

Fourth, no, a deficit financed by "money" is NOT more inflationary than a deficit financed by bonds. There's a very simple reason for this--it is operationally impossible to finance a bond issue with "money" unless you have a zero interest rate target, in which case in your own paradigm you are in a liquidity trap. To achieve a positive interest rate target while printing "money," the Fed would have to pay interest on reserve balances created by the deficit--which would leave the monetary base and tbills as perfect substitute in your own paradigm. Please demonstrate how it is operationally possible for your scenario to occur.

Fifth, yes you're right, you haven't convinced us because you've assumed we are wrong, rather than explaining why you are right about how the monetary system works.​

The shorter answer is, Krugman gets it backwards. Selling bonds is more inflationary than just creating money. When the government sells bonds, it destroys money today in exchange for creating that money again plus more (interest) at some future date. When the government just spends money by creating it, it does not pay interest. In other words, it spends less to create the money than to "borrow" the money. There is no mathematical way that "borrowing" money could ever be less inflationary than just creating it. Ever.

Of course, this is why MMT properly sees bond issuance as a separate spending program having no relation whatsoever to traditional government spending (everything except debt). The interest the government pays on bonds is totally voluntary and unnecessary. It is just a welfare program for people with enough discretionary income to exchange money today for money plus a bit more tomorrow.
 
Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents


That would have been a great setup for Biden.

All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it -- that that's an entitlement. ... My job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.

Talk about disrespecting the people you want to "represent".
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate. How you treat people affects what you can get done in Congress, as well as internationally. That's what I would have jumped on, in my closing comments at the very least. "I invite everyone to notice who has been disrespectful, interrupting, giggling about these serious issues all night. And we all wonder why we can't get anything done in Washington. Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents, as evidenced by the fact that they pushed through Obamacare completely against your wishes. Romney/Ryan won't behave this way, blahblahblah."

Go back and look at the congressional record. Tell me who has a better record on bipartisianship. Also last time I checked obamacare passed both houses :p So is anyone going to defend ryan on the issues ?
 
Again, both sides lie.

There's just a difference between slight embellishment and bold lies.

Embellishment just seems to be the Obama MO. Boldly lying about the easily verifiable is the domain of the Romney camp.

I don't see why this is shocking to anyone. I just prefer the little lies of the Obama admin. I can at least get something close to reality when I hear and parse through it. Romney a week before the debate was talking about a tax cut that would add another $5 trillion to the debt over ten years and at the debate claims he never said that.

Something you can look up in a matter of seconds. His campaign seems to trust that no one does. Polls since the debate are affirming that sad reality.
 

Cipherr

Member
Wow, that was a massacre. Slanted polls be damned, noone could have watched that and thought Ryan won without being hopelessly biased. He got ravaged.

Man, that Kennedy line. Holy crap, did you see Ryan when he said that? He looked like he was about to physically shatter into pieces.
 
I disagree with this, and wish Ryan had pointed out Biden's demeanor during the debate. How you treat people affects what you can get done in Congress, as well as internationally. That's what I would have jumped on, in my closing comments at the very least. "I invite everyone to notice who has been disrespectful, interrupting, giggling about these serious issues all night. And we all wonder why we can't get anything done in Washington. Ask yourselves if you'd like to have the United States government working again, instead of constantly in grid-lock because of an administration that not only disrespects its own Congress, but also the people it represents, as evidenced by the fact that they pushed through Obamacare completely against your wishes. Romney/Ryan won't behave this way, blahblahblah."

This post makes me laugh. I really want to go point to point and refute it, but just the fact alone that you view his debating demeanor as important as the (non-existant) bi-partisanship that the republican ticket holds is a joke.
 

Forever

Banned
Anyone who wants to say Ryan lost the debate on substance is fine by me. I don't really care about that partisan stuff. You can find many people who think the exact opposite. As far as I'm concerned when it's this split it's just an opinion not a true/false thing.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're not trolling. The reason liberals are delighted by Biden's performance and the reason why Biden won this debate is because the things that Paul Ryan said tonight were factually untrue or deliberately misleading and Biden did an excellent job of deconstructing those falsehoods that we've been subjected to repeatedly, infuriatingly, over the past year. Romney has declared that his campaign won't be dictated by fact checkers, and the reason for that is if you check the fucking facts you'll find that his plan is pixie dust and a good majority of his attacks on Obama are complete fabrications.

As Joe said tonight, facts matter. We are not willing to plunge down the post-truth societal rabbit hole that you have apparently dived down.

Labeling one side liars and the other side truth tellers is just juvenile.
This is what we call a straw man. Campaign promises are made with the understanding that due to the way our system works, one man cannot always get everything he wants done. If it were the UK where the ruling party has complete control and legislators very rarely break with their party, then a broken campaign promise is a big deal.

It's a different story when you lie about your positions and lie about your opponent's positions. It is a lie, for example, that Obama has gutted Medicare to pay for Obamacare. This is an objective falsehood debunked by no less than the AARP and every other nonpartisan fact checker. Biden did a good job of blowing that lie up tonight, and it was just one of many.

It's just distracting and makes you look like a disrespectful jerk.
This tells me that you've never seen a session of the British Parliament. You should sometime. On their side of the pond they understand that when you're running a fucking country it's more important to be right than it is to be polite.

There is such a thing as truth. I would like to think that it still matters. Assuming you are not actually a Republican who is just trolling us, I guess I should thank you for the (slightly disturbing) look into the mind of the low-information voter.
 

AniHawk

Member
Holyyy shit. BIDEN'D! I didn't watch the debate, but the way Drudge is responding, I'm going to guess Biden won.

yeah, pretty much.

just a night or two ago i posted a the famous clip of lloyd bentsen talking down to quayle, and said that age isn't the end-all be-all. i can't believe ryan walked right into that same trap.

i mean who says 'jack kennedy' as a vice-presidential candidate after that.
 
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're not trolling. The reason liberals are delighted by Biden's performance and the reason why Biden won this debate is because the things that Paul Ryan said tonight were factually untrue or deliberately misleading and Biden did an excellent job of deconstructing those falsehoods that we've been subjected to repeatedly, infuriatingly, over the past year. Romney has declared that his campaign won't be dictated by fact checkers, and the reason for that is if you check the fucking facts you'll find that his plan is pixie dust and a good majority of his attacks on Obama are complete fabrications.

As Joe said tonight, facts matter. We are not willing to plunge down the post-truth societal rabbit hole that you have apparently dived down.


This is what we call a straw man. Campaign promises are made with the understanding that due to the way our system works, one man cannot always get everything he wants done. If it were the UK where the ruling party has complete control and legislators very rarely break with their party, then a broken campaign promise is a big deal.

It's a different story when you lie about your positions and lie about your opponent's positions. It is a lie, for example, that Obama has gutted Medicare to pay for Obamacare. This is an objective falsehood debunked by no less than the AARP and every other nonpartisan fact checker. Biden did a good job of blowing that lie up tonight, and it was just one of many.


This tells me that you've never seen a session of the British Parliament. You should sometime. On their side of the pond they understand that when you're running a fucking country it's more important to be right than it is to be polite.

There is such a thing as truth. I would like to think that it still matters. Assuming you are not actually a Republican who is just trolling us, I guess I should thank you for the (slightly disturbing) look into the mind of the low-information voter.

Not only that, but Ryan also had it in his own budget plan. He's criticizing Obama for something he himself does. It's hypocritical on top of lying.
 
When you're running for the party that manufactured the debt ceiling crisis, it's a bit in poor taste to hide behind bipartisanship.

Seriously. A manufactured crisis to downgrade the countries credit rating for the sole purpose of not giving the current administration a win?

I always figured the white man wouldn't give up power easily... but holy fuck! Scorch the Earth and take the smoldering remains?

No wait... that's definitely a white people move.
 
I'm sorry, I just don't have much respect for the opposition when I've had to hear for four years from stupid people that Obama wasn't born in America, that he's a secret muslim (It shouldn't even fucking matter if he's a Muslim or not), that he's the antichrist, that he's a communist but also a socialist at the same time, that he's a weak president when we took out Bin Laden, that health care reform that falls so far short of actual health care that exists in the rest of the industrialized world is such a theat to freedom that Obama is going to personally execute my grandmother from a death panel, that Obama hasn't tried to reach across the isle, etc., etc., etc. You made your bed. You have slept in it. Don't get up covered in fleas and claim you are being disrespected.

Exaggeration and conspiracy theories and other crazy beliefs are on both sides. But they're not coming from the candidates; they're coming from fringe supporters. Of course, each side plays those up and paints the opposition as being comprised mainly of people living in some alternate reality. If you read and watch the media that supports your team, you'll think it's all the other side that's whack. Challenges to one's worldview are not viewed as opportunities to consider alternate possibilities but as threats to be squelched with prejudice.

Meanwhile, economic and civil liberties continue to fade under both parties, and politics is increasingly a game of marketing, polls, and focus groups designed to pander to voting blocs instead of charting a sensible course and telling people things they don't like to hear, like "we already give the average middle class family with 2 kids and a mortgage too many tax breaks, and we can't afford it anymore." I would drop dead of a heart attack if someone actually came out and told it like it is instead of telling people things that make them feel warm and fuzzy or cold and hateful.
 

Wall

Member
Read this for the counter-point from Krugman: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/mmt-again/

Essentially he claims that MMT is wrong if it states that paying loans by printing money has the same effect as paying loans by selling bonds. I don't know whether he is correctly describing MMT or not, but I think that it is clear one side at least certainly believes there is a gap between MMT and orthodox Keynesian economics.

I don't disagree that Krugman thinks there is a gap between MMT and what he considers modern macro. Like you, I just wasn't sure if he was describing MMT correctly (I remember that post). As far as I knew MMT recommended increasing taxes as a way to curb inflation, so clearly the theory doesn't exclusively rely on seigniorage as Krugman suggests. Further, I'm not really sure where MMT would stand on debt financing through bonds versus debt financing through direct payment of printed money to creditors considering it was my impression that the MMT solution to a freeze in the bond market would be for the governent to essentially buy the bonds from itself (have the Fed buy the bonds). The "extra" money would enter the economy through the normal channels of governmnt spendings as opposed to being taken out of the economy through cuts. If inflation appeared as a result of this, my understanding of MMT is that it would say to raise taxes (or cut spending, since it would amount to the same thing - taking money out of the economy). MMT would say that the decrease in inflation resulted from the money taken out of circulation, not the balancing of the budget.

Honestly, Krugman seemed like he was making a tone argument in that post. He acknowledged that MMT proponents also would have predicted inflation in the scenerio he outlined, but seemed to suggest that they would understate its severity and not recommend any corrective action. The impression I got from reading up on MMT was different, and I didn't see any evidence that MMT proponents would take inflation lightly as Krugman suggested. Its been while since I read up on the debate so I could be wrong, but those are the impression I remember having at the time.
 
No the fact that the VICE FUCKING PRESIDENT thought laughing and smirking is more important than the actual issues facing the US is what is wrong with this scene.

Would you like some cheese to go with that whine.

When you are being lied to nonstop, laughing is the kind way of dealing with it.
 

bounchfx

Member
they really need fact-checkers on hand at the debates. 99% of the time when someone is done making a point, the first thing the other does is say 'That's wrong' and then gives a separate line that's probably as much BS. It's so frustrating.

We need people on hand to call them out and check what's bullshit, since people are probably not going to be able to differentiate without it... :(
 
Seriously. A manufactured crisis to downgrade the countries credit rating for the sole purpose of not giving the current administration a win?

I always figured the white man wouldn't give up power easily... but holy fuck! Scorch the Earth and take the smoldering remains?

No wait... that's definitely a white people move.

We have a debt ceiling for a reason: to slow down the accumulation of debt and to make Congress make some of those hard decisions they find impossible to reconcile with their reelection campaigns. Cut spending, hike taxes, do SOMETHING to produce a sustainable budget. It's there as a last resort to keep an irresponsible Congress in check, and unfortunately Congress continues to fiddle while Rome burns. For them it's all play money that's to be directed in the way that best accommodates their election prospects, and a future where we turn into Greece or Spain or Ireland or whatever is someone else's problem. Not to say I think the brinksmanship was called for, but it takes two to get to that point.

But no, it's all about white people being so white and stupid.
 
Are we now back to the GOP whining about when a Democrat acts tough?

For months it was Mitt and Ann crying about the Obama administration mentioning Mitt's taxes, Bain record, Mass record, or anything that had to do with Mitt.

And the GOP followed.

This week they're complaining about democrats saying Mitt lies and now that Biden wasn't a choir boy in front of Ryan.

Boo fucking hoo.
 
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