Preseznik
Member
That doodle can do all of those things.
It's amazing you'd want to argue this.
Gatekeeping art is so weird.
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Video games as an art form.
- Thread starter DoubleClutch
- Start date
It's amazing you'd want to argue this.
Gatekeeping art is so weird.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
I think the point is trying to define what art is.
If I take out a sharpie and draw a straight line on a piece of paper, is it art because I say it's art, or is it just a line of ink? Where are the boundaries that define art.
I've never believed video games are art. Personally I think claiming such is pretentious and douchey.
Games are specifically made as consumer products with artistic elements to them. Having artistic elements doesn't automatically make something art. I could maybe get on board with the idea that some games are developed with the intention of being "art" pieces. Like today's indy scene I think is closer to that but I'd hesitate to call them art.
I understand why many do consider them art. I just don't agree and think that view is wrong.
Games are specifically made as consumer products with artistic elements to them. Having artistic elements doesn't automatically make something art. I could maybe get on board with the idea that some games are developed with the intention of being "art" pieces. Like today's indy scene I think is closer to that but I'd hesitate to call them art.
I understand why many do consider them art. I just don't agree and think that view is wrong.
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existensmaximum
Member
Limbo or Inside for example. Definitely not something with an anime style, that's too generic.
PaintTinJr
Member
I think the problem is: from who's perspective is it classified?
I feel these arguments always lean towards the admirer, rather than the artist, We can find beauty and artistic merit in things that had no creator - and no creator's intent - and things where the creator either didn't intend how it came out or its aesthetic was purely an unintended side effect of a mechanical design.
If we make the decider of 'is it art' the intent of the creator rather than the observation of the viewer I think the controversy goes away.
You just saying your line is art is different from having the intent to produce a line that was art IMO. A more unobvious form of art might be programming or maths proofs, but even elegant code, equations and algorithms can be be consider art by their creators.
ByWatterson
Member
Child of Light.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
Clearly made by someone who doesn’t understand art.
Markio128
Gold Member
Killer8
Member
They are an art form but they are also a commercialized product.
This means that they are subject to all sorts of decisions and changes made behind the scenes in order to try and maximize commercial viability. We recently saw very online people defending Concord's terrible character designs as something which the artists had organically came up with, but then one of the artists from Firesprite just came out and admitted on X that they were designed by a committee. It raises the question of where to draw the line between artistic vision versus corporate meddling.
It's important to also remember that everything in video game development is about compromise. I think it's very rare to get games which really represent the original artistic vision. Either it's a suit or focus group telling them to change something, or technical incompetence not letting the developer do what they wanted to do, or just plain running out of time and money and having to cut things.
Even popular examples like Silent Hill 2 are not really what Team Silent wanted to make. Konami told them to make a game which appealed more to Westerners and that's why it leaned into the small town America setting. The final character designs by Masahiro Ito are not exactly how he wanted them to be, and in fact he was excited at the opportunity for the remake to get closer to his original vision. Silent Hill 3 as a bloodier direct sequel to the original game was also due to the poor sales and fan reception of SH2 in Japan. So all the talk of Team Silent being this dream team who could do what they liked just isn't true - they reacted to what their publisher and what the market wanted just as much as anybody else.
This means that they are subject to all sorts of decisions and changes made behind the scenes in order to try and maximize commercial viability. We recently saw very online people defending Concord's terrible character designs as something which the artists had organically came up with, but then one of the artists from Firesprite just came out and admitted on X that they were designed by a committee. It raises the question of where to draw the line between artistic vision versus corporate meddling.
It's important to also remember that everything in video game development is about compromise. I think it's very rare to get games which really represent the original artistic vision. Either it's a suit or focus group telling them to change something, or technical incompetence not letting the developer do what they wanted to do, or just plain running out of time and money and having to cut things.
Even popular examples like Silent Hill 2 are not really what Team Silent wanted to make. Konami told them to make a game which appealed more to Westerners and that's why it leaned into the small town America setting. The final character designs by Masahiro Ito are not exactly how he wanted them to be, and in fact he was excited at the opportunity for the remake to get closer to his original vision. Silent Hill 3 as a bloodier direct sequel to the original game was also due to the poor sales and fan reception of SH2 in Japan. So all the talk of Team Silent being this dream team who could do what they liked just isn't true - they reacted to what their publisher and what the market wanted just as much as anybody else.
killatopak
Gold Member
do you consider children's drawings as art? there are levels to art.
It's just a cop out, plain and simple. It's like saying any sound is music or any writing is literature. Such statements always ultimately result from a refusal to engage with the difficult task of defining the terms. But just because the task is difficult does not mean it's impossible.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Would that mean in your view, anything we find beautiful is art, such as objects and views created by nature?
If the creator decides their creation is art, then does this mean everything can be art?
Artistic, yes. However, we're taking about video games as art.
Do you consider Call of Duty art?
My personal view on this is no, CoD is not art and video games are themselves not art. Sure, we can have games that are artistic, but does that mean video games are art? I'm not convinced.
killatopak
Gold Member
What's the condition for being art? Illicit emotion and response? No Russian?
There has to be a strict definition of art so everyone can come to a conclusion.
Otherwise, we have videos of people taking off their shoe in a museum and putting it in a corner and the visitors think its part of the exhibit.
However, there is value in subjectivity as not everyone feels the same way when looking at something specific. Friggin Van Gogh was a victim of this.
Robot Carnival
Member
I will always support the argument that video game is an art form. just like many other art form, it originated from a form of entertainment. be it Japanese wood board printing or medieval paintings, or novels and other written stories, or music and movies. the root of art comes from entertainment but often times supporters of the more established form of art would often look down on the new comer and dismiss them as not art just because they're new. people had called pop music not art. people had called TV and movies not art. and people had called video games not art. it'll always be that way. but as long as a media is about to express a message and feeling, it can be art. and what better media than video game to do that? where you can enjoy an amalgamation of well written words, expertly conducted music, and brilliant visuals.
I 100% agree with Journey being a choice for games as an art form. one of the most unique experiences I've had the pleasure of playing. the first time I played and finished it when it first came out, I literally got teary eyes by the end. the ending of the game, the beautiful visuals during the "flying", and the beyond wonderful music, all of these together had moved me like no other games had. it's truly a perfect example of art.
other than Journey, I would also like to mention Shadow Of The Colossus. this is another entry that is a great example of the video game media as art. it takes you through a journey of emotions towards the end and gives you a great story without even audibly saying all that much.
the late famous film critic Roger Ebert had once declared and argued that video games can never be art. and while he never did fully back down from that position, he did stated after begrudgingly trying (or was it watching? my memory on this is a little hazy) Shadow Of The Colossus that he shouldn't had said so and that games do have the potential of being art. that the experience players get while playing does constitute as art. I believe if he had been less deadset on his refusal to play games and actually sit down to try more games like Shadow Of The Colossus or Journey, he would eventually come around to the fact that games can be an art form.
I have actually done this before, journey is what i used. The reason for that is because what it manages to convey so much without telling you. No dialog, only the journey and the emotion the player experiences while on it.
I see a lot of suggesstions here that push graphics or a specific style. But I dont think people are getting what people within the "arts" are looking for, I would say due to this misunderstanding it would actually enforce to these types that gaming is exactly what they think it is, its akin to pushing the Transformers movies as an example of how films are art.
Journey though rebukes all their arguments, it fundementally does what these types say "art" is. You get them to sit down and play that, by the end of it they will begrudgingly understand.
I 100% agree with Journey being a choice for games as an art form. one of the most unique experiences I've had the pleasure of playing. the first time I played and finished it when it first came out, I literally got teary eyes by the end. the ending of the game, the beautiful visuals during the "flying", and the beyond wonderful music, all of these together had moved me like no other games had. it's truly a perfect example of art.
other than Journey, I would also like to mention Shadow Of The Colossus. this is another entry that is a great example of the video game media as art. it takes you through a journey of emotions towards the end and gives you a great story without even audibly saying all that much.
the late famous film critic Roger Ebert had once declared and argued that video games can never be art. and while he never did fully back down from that position, he did stated after begrudgingly trying (or was it watching? my memory on this is a little hazy) Shadow Of The Colossus that he shouldn't had said so and that games do have the potential of being art. that the experience players get while playing does constitute as art. I believe if he had been less deadset on his refusal to play games and actually sit down to try more games like Shadow Of The Colossus or Journey, he would eventually come around to the fact that games can be an art form.
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The Fartist
Gold Member
Of course it means something, but, it can mean anything. People need to stop placing art on a pedestal, it's not a super power, anyone can make art, I love it.
skit_data
Member
I think it might depend on your personal taste to some extent but I personally feels its a game that requires being in the "right" state of mind. I think I just happened to be in a somewhat emotionally open state of mind as I was closing in on the end of my first playthrough and it just clicked on every level.I've heard a lot about the game for years, recommended? I like diving into worlda as if getting absolutely fuck stuck in a book, pardon my expression
NieR Automata juggles a lot of philosophical, spiritual and deeply human concepts. It's pretty damn melancholic at times but in a very beautiful way. Everything is tied together by the art direction, characters, narrative and music and it just goes together so damn well. Like synesthesia or something. The music is just... something else. Probably among the best OST I've heard and a whole work of art in itself.
It mixes and matches several types of gameplay styles (mostly Action RPG, but also a lot of bullet hell/shoot 'em up).
It takes a bit of time to get through and requires several playthroughs/NG+ cycles to really get the full experience from the narrative and gameplay elements. I deem it a fairly relaxed game once you get into the flow of it (I played on normal, but I can see it get pretty crazy on higher difficulties). If played on easy mode it offers a lot of assists, if you're in it mainly for the story
Oh damn I wrote half a review of the game xD But I deeply recommend it, it's probably not for everyone and I also think one might not be "susceptible" to it at all times. But I think most people that have completed the whole game in it's entirety shares my viewpoint in that it is a pure work of art.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
All games are designed to produce emotions. I wouldn't say that's the sole indicator of art.
Absolutely agreed. There needs to be an agreed definition of art, otherwise we get to the stage where anything can be art.
I recently went to the national art museum in Warsaw. It has art and historical artifacts from ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, medieval Europe and all the way to the modern period.
The modern art section was really when the lines started to blur. I understand and recognise a Greek statue or a painting by Jan Matejko as art, but an empty cigarette packet with googly eyes stuck on the front? I struggled to see how that is art.
True. I don't think an empty cigarette packet is art, but I'm sure makes a lot of art lovers throb.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
If a creative medium allows the author to put something of them in what they are doing, then imo that thing is art.
It's not just about pretty visuals. Could be in the message behind the writting, or in the emotions behind the music, or even in the gameplay mechanics.
It's not just about pretty visuals. Could be in the message behind the writting, or in the emotions behind the music, or even in the gameplay mechanics.
Rat Rage
Member
No, only games which completely represent the developer's own artistic vision should be considered art.
Games these days are way too driven by outer factors like marketing departments who chase trends, heavily influencing a game's develpment to the point the artists are forces to produce utter shit - just as we've seen with the bomba of the century Concord, where the developers themselves stated they were literally forced to create such shit character designs.
So no, most games these days are definitely not art, but mere "products" - to be quickly consumed, quickly milked and to be quickly forgotten.
PaintTinJr
Member
No, I'm saying we mistakenly draw artistic meaning from things that were unintended and not art(IMO) as they had no intention to be art, so as observers we aren't a good judge.
Not decides...but had a subconscious intent when creating to express themselves artistically, as was my example of masters of older crafts.
Mastery of things requires skill and involves taking paths with compromise that leads to exemplary results that would be near impossible to reproduce identically even for another master.
The situation covers everything from a child's art up to and including bad modern art where the people lie to themselves and say it is art when they know deep down it was just a stunt to tip mud over someone under the false guise of calling it art to get attention IMO.
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Trelane
Member
I consider games to be art. A lot goes into the end product: art, writing, music, etc. There are others who have put it much more eloquently than I, but I consider video games to definitely be art.
As for the game, well, I have no idea what would convince anyone who doesn’t already see games as art by now. Maybe just show them Tetris so that even if they disagree, I can still play Tetris.
As for the game, well, I have no idea what would convince anyone who doesn’t already see games as art by now. Maybe just show them Tetris so that even if they disagree, I can still play Tetris.
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ZoukGalaxy
Member
JOURNEY
It's not a game, it's pure ART.
It's not a game, it's pure ART.
It can't mean something and anything, that's a contradiction.
If it means something then you must exclude other things, at which point it can no longer mean anything.
Of course, this is all perfectly obvious to anyone thinking clearly and not just resorting to cliche.
Humdinger
Member
I have actually done this before, journey is what i used. The reason for that is because what it manages to convey so much without telling you. No dialog, only the journey and the emotion the player experiences while on it.
I see a lot of suggesstions here that push graphics or a specific style. But I dont think people are getting what people within the "arts" are looking for, I would say due to this misunderstanding it would actually enforce to these types that gaming is exactly what they think it is, its akin to pushing the Transformers movies as an example of how films are art.
Journey though rebukes all their arguments, it fundementally does what these types say "art" is. You get them to sit down and play that, by the end of it they will begrudgingly understand.
Yeah, that's the game that immediately came to my mind, too. The person has to play it through, though, not just sample it. If you sample it, all you'll get is the art style and tone, which is fine and dandy, but unless you complete the game, you won't get the "story" of it, which is essential to what qualifies it as "art," at least in my view.
Art is not just pretty to look at. Art elevates or expands your perspective. Journey does that.
Mozzarella
Member
Games can be art, but they also dont have to be art.
March Climber
Member
I’ve always been more of a music guy so I would try to make my case with games where the music and moment of the game match perfectly. Here are a couple of examples:
Example 1) This boss fight in Shadow of the Colossus
Example 2) Arriving in Cassardis in Dragon’s Dogma or returning to it after a long journey
Example 1) This boss fight in Shadow of the Colossus
Example 2) Arriving in Cassardis in Dragon’s Dogma or returning to it after a long journey
The Fartist
Gold Member
It's up to the viewer to interpret what they see, so yes, it can mean anything, including what the creator intended. That's the beauty of art.
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I'm not talking about different interpretations of particular artwork. I'm talking about the meaning of the word art itself.
If it literally means "anything" then the word effectively has no meaning.
I think that's nonsense. Most people have at least a vague understanding of the term and would be able to agree, for instance, that Goldman Sachs's latest annual report is not art but that The Birth of Venus is art. And so already we would have established that art cannot be "anything" because a corporate annual report is "something" and that doesn't qualify.
The Fartist
Gold Member
I think you just want to win. That's cool, you win, enjoy.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
The Shadow of the Colossus soundtrack for PS2 is simply stunning!
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Cassardis theme might be the best "town music" I've ever heard. Great taste man.
The Cockatrice
Member
longrainwater
Neo Member
The question is really, what is your definition of art?
The definition of what makes something art differs across people, cultures, time periods.
The definition of what makes something art differs across people, cultures, time periods.
XXL
Member
Anything from Team Ico, but specifically Shadow of the Colossus.
Shadow of the Colossus has about 20 lines of text and tells one the best stories ever. That's insanely difficult to do in any medium.
Anything from FromSoftware, but specifically Bloodborne.
FromSoftware's art design is out of this fucking world. Pretty much every area or any character (mainly villians) they create.
Shadow of the Colossus has about 20 lines of text and tells one the best stories ever. That's insanely difficult to do in any medium.
Anything from FromSoftware, but specifically Bloodborne.
FromSoftware's art design is out of this fucking world. Pretty much every area or any character (mainly villians) they create.
Holographicman
Neo Member
I think you sold it on me, thanks for the in depth reply, really appreciated
Holographicman
Neo Member
YESINSIDE
Ape Escape on ps1, I'm a PC gamer first, NES games changed my mind about consoles, games were too hard and not fun, that's how I used to view consoles until I saw Ape Escape on ps1, the analog sticks compared to dpad was a huge releaf for me, cause I had complexity with dpads on NES.
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I have always thought so. Usually the best video games are by a single designer with a vision. He (and yes it is usually a male) has a vision for all aspective of the medium.
The visual look, the gameplay, the sound the feedback all the while involving the players interaction with the game.
The unique thing about Video games that it adds the player. Movies can have 100s or 1000s of people involved to create a single vision as do video games. When it all comes together I think it is a really impressive thing to be admired.
This is why games like Symphony of the Night, Chrono Trigger, Tetris, SMB, GTA3 (not an exaustive list) and other sort of transcend just the people playing the games.
Also why games can be just interesting for different reasons.
The visual look, the gameplay, the sound the feedback all the while involving the players interaction with the game.
The unique thing about Video games that it adds the player. Movies can have 100s or 1000s of people involved to create a single vision as do video games. When it all comes together I think it is a really impressive thing to be admired.
This is why games like Symphony of the Night, Chrono Trigger, Tetris, SMB, GTA3 (not an exaustive list) and other sort of transcend just the people playing the games.
Also why games can be just interesting for different reasons.
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Kronark
Neo Member
It leans a bit more into traditional narrative as art form but I would probably ask someone to give The Beginner's Guide a play through to showcase videogames as art. It's the one I still think about regularly. Killer 7 also comes to mind through 20 years later I'm still not quite sure what it was trying to say.
I wish more video games dove into storytelling / expressionn via mechanics and gameplay though because it's something other mediums can't replicate. The final moments of Brothers: A Tale of Two sons or Toriel's projectiles in Undertale avoiding you on purpose, etc.
I wish more video games dove into storytelling / expressionn via mechanics and gameplay though because it's something other mediums can't replicate. The final moments of Brothers: A Tale of Two sons or Toriel's projectiles in Undertale avoiding you on purpose, etc.
Bernardougf
Member
I think that this notion that all games are Art is part of the problem in the today's dev landscape... yes games can be art but they are also a product that have to sell to a mass market...
You can treat your game like an art passion product and put all your ideas and feelings on that game... maybe it will sell maybe not.. the market will decide and you should not be angry or call consumer names if they dont agree with your toughts and feelings and therefore not buy your game.
Or you can treat your game like a product that have to sell to X target audience/market... and use the artist in you to make this happen in the best way possible leaving some of your wishes and feelings maybe aside.
Chasing personal visions and feelings is different from chasing good selling products. This should be clear. But it got very blurred in modern development.
When an artist do a paint, a sculpture or some other piece of art he only have to find ONE person to agree with him and sell ... not 5 - 10 million
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