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[bfrye26]

I think the Vita is a great system. But it is coming when mobile devices are in everyones hands. If they made a vita in some sort of Xperia phone I think it would have done much better. As it is, it feels like a device that stays at home seeing as my phone sits in my pocket and I would hate to bring a bag all for the vita.

That said I think the fact homebrew may come could be interesting. It may get people picking up their vita more and trying apps. I just hope they do not get retail ISO's running seeing as that would kill games on the system. At this rate that is the last thing this system needs

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Oh I see, you're not a pirate, therfore they don't exist.

Gotcha.

A single counter-example is enough against blanket statements.

 

[faridmon]

Region Unlocking?

I know the system is region unlocked but its locked to one account, which means, its more or less region locked.

 

[kodt]

Well, I remember Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker, a game that everyone played, that all the game forums were full of info, with tons of pages on gamefaqs, for example, that was highly hyped as the next real MGS game, etc... selling only 50k on NPD.

Less than MGAcid, a non-cannon niche game moved when PSP was not hackable.

We can argue than when MGSW reached US, the PSP userbase was "dead". But if people is able to buy 250$ hardware (or even 400$ hardware) to play a good game, it would be even easier with $150 PSP, or even cheaper at second hand, or simply take the dust off the PSP that you bought years ago.

But no. Obviously much more people than 50k played PSP MGSW (unless the web forums were full by the same people) but only 50k paid for the game.

But would have all of those people who pirated it, have bought a PSP anyway and bought the game at full retail price? This is the question that DRM advocates can never answer, but they like to assume that it is 100%. It is probably closer to 15%.

 

[DangerousDave]

A single counter-example is enough against blanket statements.

"Main reason" doesn't mean "only reason".

 

[Holy Order Sol]

"Main reason" doesn't mean "only reason".

But who is he talking to here?

We've been through this already.

 

[DangerousDave]

But would have all of those people who pirated it, have bought a PSP anyway and bought the game at full retail price? This is the question that DRM advocates can never answer, but they like to assume that it is 100%. It is probably closer to 15%.

Well, we have the sales of Metal Gear Acid on US and Japan.
We have the sales of Metal Gear 4 on US and Japan.
We have the sales of Metal Gear Peace Walker on Japan, so it should be easy to extrapolate what could be the expectations of the game on US.

We cannot say if MGSPW could have sold 1M, or 800K, or 600K... but it should have sold much more than 50k, not a simply 15% more.

 

[Perkel]

Uhm. Cfw for wii supported everything.

I mean by "most of mayor games" whole catalog of PS360 games. I know few people who have CFW Wii but most of people with CFW were PS360 users.

 

[vaelic]

final nail in coffin for VITA

 

[Takao]

Well, we have the sales of Metal Gear Acid on US and Japan.
We have the sales of Metal Gear 4 on US and Japan.
We have the sales of Metal Gear Peace Walker on Japan, so it should be easy to extrapolate what could be the expectations of the game on US.

We cannot say if MGSPW could have sold 1M, or 800K, or 600K... but it should have sold much more than 50k, not a simply 15% more.

You're also missing Portable Ops, which once again sold better than Peace Walker did in the west and that didn't have the "Directed by Hideo Kojima" and world tour marketing support PW did.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

How many posters here that would like CFW on the Vita had their PSP CFW'd? If you have, do you still play your CFW'd PSP? Mine is collecting dust. It was fun to do it. I got bored and moved on.

I think you'll get a decent SNES/NES/Genesis emulator if the Vita is hacked. Emulation of PS2 and Gamecube software .. that's a tough pill for the Vita to swallow. It's a powerful handheld but even the likes of BNES needs a factor of hardware power to achieve perfect emulation. Do I really want a handheld that can emulate 70% of the software at <50% of the performance it needs to run it effectively?

I had my PSP CFW'd. I got better battery life, better performance by unlocking the CPU, less loading times in games, the ability to carry multiple games with me at once, video files without converting them. CFW made the PSP a better system outside of gaming.

 

[Delusibeta]

A single counter-example is enough against blanket statements.

Only true in mathematics. In stuff like this, you're wrong: piracy is the #1 for any console to be jailbroken. All the other benefits are just gravy, piracy is the meat and potatoes.

 

[Jinko]

(haven't read the whole thread) .. but I hope this doesn't create a situation like the PSP, you know what I'm referring to.

 

[JudgeN]

So should I be buying PSP Mini Urbanix and hoping for the PSP ISO loader to be released by someone?

 

[Varth]

final nail in coffin for VITA

Dunno, really. Didn't it go like this for PSP too? If the buzz starts getting around and people actually buy the hardware, at some point devs will start working on it, won't they? Could end up being a shock to a situation that's too much dead calm right now.

Are the pirates already at the point where they can spoof each update? If not, Sony could let this go unnoticed for some time, if only to get some momentum in hw sales.

 

[Foshy]

final nail in coffin for VITA

How many "final nails" is it going to take to close the coffin then? Going by GAF, this is already the fourth or fifth one or something

 

[Shadow780]

You can't kill the undead, headshots only works in fiction.

 

[dantevsninjas]

I'm curious, there have historically been no shortage of claims that rampant piracy was what helped kill the PSP, but didn't the DS have just as much an issue with piracy? Was the fact that you needed to buy additional hardware to run pirated games on the DS enough of a barrier to keep it alive?

 

[test_account]

So should I be buying PSP Mini Urbanix and hoping for the PSP ISO loader to be released by someone?

Now that this is known, it will probably be blocked in the next Vita firmware update. So you might have to wait for a long time and not being able to play the latest games or use PSN on Vita.

How many "final nails" is it going to take to close the coffin then? Going by GAF, this is already the fourth or fifth one or something

Its a huge coffin. Because of that, the final nail actually consist of many smaller nails =)

 

[NinjaBoiX]

"Main reason" doesn't mean "only reason".

But who is he talking to here?

We've been through this already.

No, I said CFW is often used for piracy. You said "I don't use it for piracy, therefore you don't have a valid argument."

That is far from a valid argument.

 

[Takao]

I'm curious, there have historically been no shortage of claims that rampant piracy was what helped kill the PSP, but didn't the DS have just as much an issue with piracy? Was the fact that you needed to buy additional hardware to run pirated games on the DS enough of a barrier to keep it alive?

Demographics and sales. DS sold 2x the hardware PSP did, and targeted demos that aren't in the know in regards to piracy tech. Yes, I know someone will post about how they saw some 92 year old woman playing Brian Age via an R4 or something, but that's an exception. The PSP targeted the tech savvy market who would be affluent enough to hack their device to get zee free games, and while there certainly were pirates on DS that blow was softened by the huge userbase.

 

[MushroomSamba]

If it can somehow run PS2 games, I may very well go out and buy a Vita just for that. And I don't even want to play any actual Vita games.

 

[Zaptruder]

If Sony are making money from the hardware, this is actually a nice win for them.

Obviously they can't endorse piracy on their own hardware and have to do what they can to keep up the appearances in interest of the stakeholders.

But pirates can and do buy games.

And they can even take advantage of this situation by providing an excellent DD service that makes it easier for owners to download and play than to pirate.

 

[DangerousDave]

I'm curious, there have historically been no shortage of claims that rampant piracy was what helped kill the PSP, but didn't the DS have just as much an issue with piracy? Was the fact that you needed to buy additional hardware to run pirated games on the DS enough of a barrier to keep it alive?

As Takao said, demographics and sales.

But when you see the sales of the DS games that fit the same demography that know and will use a R4 card, you'll see that piracy also affected them.

 

[Phife Dawg]

So I can't play ripped UMDs yet, right? Would the system have to be totally open for that?

I'm curious, there have historically been no shortage of claims that rampant piracy was what helped kill the PSP, but didn't the DS have just as much an issue with piracy? Was the fact that you needed to buy additional hardware to run pirated games on the DS enough of a barrier to keep it alive?

Piracy always hurts the less popular consoles more. PS2 didn't suffer so much from the rampant piracy as DC did (piracy being super, super easy on DC didn't help either).

If Sony are making money from the hardware, this is actually a nice win for them.

Obviously they can't endorse piracy on their own hardware and have to do what they can to keep up the appearances in interest of the stakeholders.

But pirates can and do buy games.

And they can even take advantage of this situation by providing an excellent DD service that makes it easier for owners to download and play than to pirate.

Third parties will be delighted. All these new potential customers.

 

[charlequin]

If it can somehow run PS2 games, I may very well go out and buy a Vita just for that. And I don't even want to play any actual Vita games.

The PS3 can't even really run PS2 games, I wouldn't hold out much hope for the Vita.

 

[dantevsninjas]

The PS3 can't even really run PS2 games, I wouldn't hold out much hope for the Vita.

Yeah, the reason the PS3 slim models are no longer backwards compatible is that they took out the PS2 hardware that was stuffed into the PS3 to make BC work. They apparently couldn't/didn't want to be bothered with building a full emulation system, so you got the PS2 classics dl's that are the compromise solution.

While I know it's not possible, I really wish there was a sanctioned solution for homebrew on handhelds...being able to use the Vita for emulators like I did on the PSP would go a long way to convincing me to finally bite the bullet and pick one up.

 

[inner-G]

Vita has so much more online features and integration that if you were running CFW and off the grid, you would miss a lot more than a CFW PSP.

Provided hacking blocks you from PSN, it would really limit the experience.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Being able to play entirely free old games that contribute nothing to the continued development of videogames today or any sort of financial reason for the system to even exist is precisely what the Vita needs as a system!! I'm not sure people really understand what makes the world go round most of the time.

You're obviously never gonna see Nintendo support on the Vita, but it would be nice if Sega pulled their thumb out with regards to all the countless rom collections they've plonked up on various systems over the years and got them up across all hardware, and that combined with bringing more of their Dreamcast HD titles to Vita, all the Capcom PSP (Darkstalkers, SF Slpha, PowerStone, Maverick Hunter X etc)titles, the SNK emulated stuff, and of course PS1 now on there, the system is already pretty damn retro capable with a huge library.

But that would involve buying things again of course. Which is a nuh-uh, despite all the good will the awesome cross play stuff that Sony's trying to ring in (Buy a PSOne title and that can be played across PS3/Vita/PSP for instance too, Minis as well), never mind the incredibly open Playstation Mobile. Response? Continue to hack hack hack, must have mah emoo-rators, + fuzzy "its not reaaallly region free" excuses.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Vita has so much more online features and integration that if you were running CFW and off the grid, you would miss a lot more than a CFW PSP.

Provided hacking blocks you from PSN, it would really limit the experience.

Some retail games knock you off the network anyway while playing them so outside of patches, I don't think the loss of PSN would be a big deal.

 

[DangerousDave]

Some retail games knock you off the network anyway while playing them so outside of patches, I don't think the loss of PSN would be a big deal.

There is a small difference between getting off the network meanwhile you are playing a few specific games to not been able to update the fw and then not being able to use any online functionality, patches, friend list, near, game demos, even acceed the store to get legit downloaded Vita games EVER.

 

[dallow_bg]

There is a small difference between getting off the network meanwhile you are playing a few specific games to not been able to update the fw and then not being able to use any online functionality, patches, friend list, near, game demos, even acceed the store to get legit downloaded Vita games EVER.

And trophies!

Yeah, on PSP, I wouldn't care about losing PSN, and didn't. Few online games were that interesting.
Vita and PS3 are different.

I'd buy a second system before losing that.

 

[sajj316]

And trophies!

Yeah, on PSP, I wouldn't care about losing PSN, and didn't.
Vita and PS3 are different.

I'd buy a second system before losing that.

I'd probably do that .. buy a 2nd system if I wanted to do CFW. Right now, running old emulators isn't going to get me to do that.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

There is a small difference between getting off the network meanwhile you are playing a few specific games to not been able to update the fw and then not being able to use any online functionality, patches, friend list, near, game demos, even acceed the store to get legit downloaded Vita games EVER.

What new features have been added to the FW so far? CFW would allow all those other things besides near and friends list.

 

[PezDispenser]

We cannot say if MGSPW could have sold 1M, or 800K, or 600K... but it should have sold much more than 50k, not a simply 15% more.

15% of the people who pirated the game, which is what he meant, is not the same as 15% more than 50k.

 

[Gvaz]

I don't understand this as well. Can someone clarify why everyone is in panic mode now?

Slippery slope.

Well, I remember Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker, a game that everyone played, that all the game forums were full of info, with tons of pages on gamefaqs, for example, that was highly hyped as the next real MGS game, etc... selling only 50k on NPD.

Less than MGAcid, a non-cannon niche game moved when PSP was not hackable.

We can argue than when MGSW reached US, the PSP userbase was "dead". But if people is able to buy 250$ hardware (or even 400$ hardware) to play a good game, it would be even easier with $150 PSP, or even cheaper at second hand, or simply take the dust off the PSP that you bought years ago.

But no. Obviously much more people than 50k played PSP MGSW (unless the web forums were full by the same people) but only 50k paid for the game.

No the psp was already dead before that. Most of the games on the PSP were garbage or way too fucking expensive. $40 for a new mobile game you beat in 6 hours or was obvious shovelware? Fuck that garbage. Ten bucks or bust. Did CFW help? No, but sales after the first hump of buyers just went downhill instead of staying the sameish like with nintendo.

Why? Because Nintendo that's why. They've locked in customers who will buy a DS because they bought a game boy before. They've locked in customers who will buy a DS for their kids, because they remember the gameboy. What does Sony have? Nothing. So, sony not only has to price at a point comparable to the DS, it also has to win over those DS fans to purchase the psp. Publishers/devs are a rather finicky bunch and flee at the first sign of weakness.

Why is the Vita selling poorly? It obviously isn't because of CFW, it can't be from fear of it failing because of CFW. It's because everyone remembered the kind of system the psp was in terms of a device/price/game collection that most people would be willing to just say fuck it and not bother with the vita at all.

I had a CFW psp and it's gathering dust. I know what games are available, I have played the good ones at one point or another (buying for cheap and returning for cash) and frankly even at the discounted prices, only a handful of the games even began to be worth it. One of the very best games, P3P was $40 new. It's a slightly changed port of a PS2 game. I don't know about you but as good as that game was, it's a port. That's not worth my $40, that's worth $25 tops.

 

[Ri'Orius]

But would have all of those people who pirated it, have bought a PSP anyway and bought the game at full retail price? This is the question that DRM advocates can never answer, but they like to assume that it is 100%. It is probably closer to 15%.

I don't think I've ever heard someone seriously claim that every pirated copy is a lost sale. The only people I've heard say that are piracy defenders attacking a strawman.

 

[Gvaz]

I don't think I've ever heard someone seriously claim that every pirated copy is a lost sale. The only people I've heard say that are piracy defenders attacking a strawman.

No I don't have a link atm, but I remember reading it from people like Cliffy B I think (who admittedly is a fucking retard) saying that every one of those people who pirated was a lost potential sale. That's why companies go "we lost X amount of money to piracy"

 

[StevePharma]

Demographics and sales. DS sold 2x the hardware PSP did, and targeted demos that aren't in the know in regards to piracy tech. Yes, I know someone will post about how they saw some 92 year old woman playing Brian Age via an R4 or something, but that's an exception.

I live in Holland, and they straight up sold R4 carts in respectable computershops for a while. They never advertised in their pamphlets that they could play roms, but when I queried a clerk one day he blatantly stated that you could play them. I've seen mothers with small children in toy shops over here asking if they sold R4-cards.

People were in the know about these things.

Almost 90% of my friends who had DSes have an R4 card. One of them said: "I could pay 70-80 euros to import a game that will never come out here or I could just get it off the internet." (he was talking about Ouendan 2 at the time).

DS piracy was rampant. It kills sales, but also, like in the case of some of my friends, doesn't hurt sales because they couldn't even buy the game in Holland in the first place.

3DS seems to hold out for now. Let's hope it stays that way for at least another couple of years. Same with Vita.

 

[Rich!]

Working in a retail store, I lost count of the amount of times clueless parents came up to me asking for R4 cards, because all their kids friends had them.

Yeah, piracy was rampant in the casual sector. UK.

 

[Zoe]

The thing with the DS is many parents didn't even realize the R4 cards really were much less that they were illegal.

 

[Rich!]

The thing with the DS is many parents didn't even realize the R4 cards really were much less that they were illegal.

Yep. All my experiences came from parents who were unaware it was piracy. Once I told them, none cared.

 

[Gvaz]

Because people don't give a shit if it saves them money.

 

[DangerousDave]

What new features have been added to the FW so far? CFW would allow all those other things besides near and friends list.

No, because all of them need PSN.

- Do you want to get the demo of that new game? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to buy that Vita game on PSN because is discounted? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to use Near? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to buy a mini? O any PSMobile game? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to get any patch, or friend list info, of existant and installed games? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to use crossplay? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to play newer retail games? The game will ask you to upgrade FW.

If you don't want to update the firmware, you lose PSN access, all the online or patch functionality, and you lose the possibility of playing new games, both digital (obviously) and retail.

You want tolose this only to have emulation and divx support or, basically, anything that you already can do in a much cheaper PSP, but with a better screen, and with less problems, because you don't lose too much if you don't update the fw of the PSP? Well, yes, you can. But is a really akward decision to do.

 

[DangerousDave]

No the psp was already dead before that.

Doesn't matter. Games like MGS move much more hardware (and hardware much more expensive than the PSP on 2010) than that. The console being "dead" is not an excuse, it even make cheaper (or free, if you bought a PSP a few years earlier to play Portable Ops, that sold 4 times more, for example) to get the game.

The reality was that almost all people that bought MGA, or Portable Ops had the PSP with CFW. And they didn't wanted to upgrade the FW and lose all their features to play a game. So the only way to play the game AND keep the CFW was download the ISO from internet. Yes, I suppose that some of them said, ok, let's pay 45$ for a game that I already have in my CFW PSP because I want to support Konami. But only a few of them.

You only need to check any game forum on 2010 to see that all the movement, posts and feedback in there wasn't the feedback of a game that only 50k people was playing.

 

[Callibretto]

Region Unlocking?

I know the system is region unlocked but its locked to one account, which means, its more or less region locked.

the account locked thing only apply to online space, psn games and dlc stuff, which if you use cfw, not gonna have psn access anyway

 

[Callibretto]

No, because all of them need PSN.

- Do you want to get the demo of that new game? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to buy that Vita game on PSN because is discounted? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to use Near? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to buy a mini? O any PSMobile game? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to get any patch, or friend list info, of existant and installed games? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to use crossplay? Upgrade FW.
- Do you want to play newer retail games? The game will ask you to upgrade FW.

If you don't want to update the firmware, you lose PSN access, all the online or patch functionality, and you lose the possibility of playing new games, both digital (obviously) and retail.

You want tolose this only to have emulation and divx support or, basically, anything that you already can do in a much cheaper PSP, but with a better screen, and with less problems, because you don't lose too much if you don't update the fw of the PSP? Well, yes, you can. But is a really akward decision to do.

sadly, they can still probably get most of the games/dlc/update if they download it from torrent or something, because someone will make a cracked version of those files, if I remember, there's a psp game that have some umd protection in it that people are unable to pirate it at first but finally cracked because there's psn version of the game. forgot what game it is though

 

[Gvaz]

There is never a single instance where DRM is helpful for the customer on any platform.

 

[DangerousDave]

sadly, they can still probably get most of the games/dlc/update if they download it from torrent or something, because someone will make a cracked version of those files, if I remember, there's a psp game that have some umd protection in it that people are unable to pirate it at first but finally cracked because there's psn version of the game. forgot what game it is though

Yes, I think that you can play any PSP game (or even DLC) on a PSP (or a hacked Vita). But losing Vita new releases (and the rest of the Vita functionalities) to have a SNES emulator in a fifth device that is more expensive than all the other devices where you already can play that SNES emulator?

Is like when people bought the first PS3 dongle (load ISO but no other features), losing PSN games and also new released PS3 games only to be able to switch the existant PS3 games without needing of switch disks. Of course, no piracy involved. Everybody knows that losing PSN and new games to be able to play the games that you already bought, without getting up from the couch, is a very wise option. At least for all the PS3 paraplegic userbase.

 

[Callibretto]

Yes, I think that you can play any PSP game (or even DLC) on a PSP (or a hacked Vita). But losing Vita new releases (and the rest of the Vita functionalities) to have a SNES emulator in a fifth device that is more expensive than all the other devices where you already can play that SNES emulator?

in today's environment where every mobile device on the planets have apps for everything, a fully unlocked vita for homebrew does offer a very interesting possibilities of what you can do with it, combined with a beautiful screen and proper button and analog, it truly is a homebrew dream machine.

I think this time, it can really go far beyond simply emulator, with internet capable, gps, gyro, and multi touch capabilities, what does modern mobile phone have that vita can't do in term of apps?

I think even Sony understand it themselves, which is probably one reason why they go for psmobile. they're focusing psm on games right now, but I think they also said to let people make non games or more general apps for it. I just hope it's not too restricting of what people can or cannot make.