ArkhamFantasy
Member
You are talking shit about Universal Healthcare while using a Walter White avatar, think about that for a minute.
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Vox: Bernie Sanders's tax hikes are bigger than Donald Trump's tax cuts
- Thread starter noshten
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You are talking shit about Universal Healthcare while using a Walter White avatar, think about that for a minute.
finalflame
Banned
I support Bernie but I am not down for this at all.
Congrats on living that American "I got mine" dream?
Well then, I apologize for not getting my facts straight.
no idea who you are arguing with, though it looks like your last sentence defeated your first, so uhh.. relativity is scalable and stuff.
Do you acknowledge that this plan may me a winning situation for other people?
If some other hard-working family's situation is guaranteed to improve dramatically, does that help change your mind? What if five hard working American families had improved lives based off your sacrifice? Are you able to name a number for how many families would need to improve before you consider the idea of universal health care worth it?
This idea that everyone can earn $50k each if they work hard enough is ludicrous. It's simply not possible. At the end of the day someone has to clean the toilets and their healthcare still needs to be paid for.
Zoe
Member
I'm surprised it took this long to be said. People are usually quick to say that when the subject is minimum wage.
Colonel Mustard
Banned
I'm paying nearly $185 every two weeks for insurance as is and it doesn't even include vision. According to the table, my tax increase is completely offset by not having to pay for this. Plus I would be helping those below my income level have healthcare as well.
Seems great to me.
Seems great to me.
Hari Seldon
Member
The college thing is unnecessary but universal health care is something that does need to happen. I'd like to see the budge for just the health care stuff.
NullPointer
Member
I've got no problem with this.
We've got to invest in our own people, namely in healthcare and education. We're too far behind the curve.
I've always been fine with higher taxes provided the benefits are worth it. If Bernie's plans could be implemented I'd consider them worth it.
We've got to invest in our own people, namely in healthcare and education. We're too far behind the curve.
I've always been fine with higher taxes provided the benefits are worth it. If Bernie's plans could be implemented I'd consider them worth it.
There's such a thing as too high a starting offer in negotiation.
If your 1rst bargaining chip makes the other side flip the table you'll be getting nowhere.
Considering the size of the argument here I would like to see the plan go through the congress and the senate, there's great things to learn from such an experiment.
hey_monkey
Banned
Bring on the taxes if it'll actually go to something worth a damn. In this country, though, it probably wouldn't.
Euphoria14
Member
I like Breaking Bad, what's your point?
My avatar doesn't go beyond my enjoyment of the show, no matter how deep you try to look into it or the shows characters.
SoRuffShoNuff
Member
That site doesn't list how many working adults make up the household. A single person making 50k and a family making 100k combined are both one household. Two working adults making 100k combined is not rare at all, especially in a metropolitan area. According to cnn money a household income of 100k put you in the top 22%, 1 out of 5 households does not qualify as rare, even less so if you only account for homes with two working adults.
silvermember
Banned
It is not a winning solution for a lot of families. It might help the extremely poor, but every one else is going to be screwed by it, which means he will not get elected.
Unless employees are required to increase salaries to make up for the increase in taxes from the savings they get from not paying for employee health insurance, this is a very horrible plan. This is with the assumption that the general public doesn't freak out, which they will. This is also based on the assumption that the republicans so how agree to go along with it, which they wont.
This is america. It will never happen
I am curious to know how your avatar is relevant to your opinions. I like Elizabeth, but I am not Elizabeth in real life.
NullPointer
Member
Just that the entire motivation for the series might have whooshed right past you.
I'm not being too serious here, but its a funny observation.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
The plot of the show doesnt work if he lived somewhere with universal healthcare.
household is household. Household median is 52k per this thread.
Euphoria14
Member
Yes, but it also throws away what I've worked long and hard to achieve.
Asking people to give up what the worked hard for is no less selfish than me wanting to keep what I earned.
This isn't a one way street.
Future PhaZe
Member
eye opening thread as far as gaffers go tbh
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
I'm not voting for Sanders this Tuesday (though I will in November if he's the nominee) but this really doesn't bother me. For my family of three (soon to be four), I'm paying an absolute assload for insurance. This would be a massive savings.
are you a 1099 by any chance?
Euphoria14
Member
I never said I wasn't for universal healthcare though?
I've been a Bernie supporter for months.
I just don't like the whole "SMACK!" Pay $5000 more now per year". I have a mortgage and bills, I can't afford to throw out $5,000.
I don't see why that is so hard for people to understand. It's almost as if they think you could just walk away from a mortgage like that.
Yeah I probably could, but the consequences would be far worse than the $5,000 hike that would currently cripple my household due to the cost of living we are now tied into.
As I've mentioned earlier, I have 2 cars that are 15 years old and have 150,000+ miles. This hike would put me into auto loan debt just to afford replacements when eventually needed, after I run them into the ground.
It would help far more than just the "extremely poor". See every other industrialized nation's health care system.
But there are millions of people who worked just as hard as you and have not achieved because of random uncontrollable circumstances. Sucks to be them?
SoRuffShoNuff
Member
That statement does not refute my point that two working adults making 100k combined is not rare.
I'm more than ok contributing more if it means the country as a whole will improve, and the lives of millions of people will be less stressful due to factors like education and healthcare.
though I thought the point of raising taxes to pay for stuff like healthcare would somewhat balance out considering we wouldnt be paying the same for premiums under this plan. (basically if i was spending 4k a year, and this plan says I get +5k in taxes, wouldn't that only be a net difference of 1k taxes a year? or am I misunderstanding? I also thought a lot of the plan was supposedly going to actually SAVE people money over the year, but I'm assuming thats only a portion of people. I'm not fully caught up on this so please correct me if I'm misinformed.)
but really, it all comes down to not being selfish as a country, and getting over the 'i didnt get that so why should they' mantra. If we all have to put in a little to raise the standards of our country then it's worth it imo. The effects it would have are far reaching well past face value.
though I thought the point of raising taxes to pay for stuff like healthcare would somewhat balance out considering we wouldnt be paying the same for premiums under this plan. (basically if i was spending 4k a year, and this plan says I get +5k in taxes, wouldn't that only be a net difference of 1k taxes a year? or am I misunderstanding? I also thought a lot of the plan was supposedly going to actually SAVE people money over the year, but I'm assuming thats only a portion of people. I'm not fully caught up on this so please correct me if I'm misinformed.)
but really, it all comes down to not being selfish as a country, and getting over the 'i didnt get that so why should they' mantra. If we all have to put in a little to raise the standards of our country then it's worth it imo. The effects it would have are far reaching well past face value.
Hari Seldon
Member
There is an argument to be made that healthcare in general could be made cheaper overall if the entire thing was nationalized, but the college thing will never, ever fly. It will be a cold day in hell before my federal taxes go to some fucking college coach making millions or some waaaay overpriced liberal arts school like NYU. I would support community colleges like Obama has talked about but that is it.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Since december i've paid that much just on dentist/oral surgeon bills and i have insurance.
silvermember
Banned
You mean the industrialized nations with far less people and better safety nets for its population? Those industrialized nation? I
My point is this, the amount of changed required to make sanders plans viable is far too extreme for the average American to accept. They won't accept it.
Personally, my main concern is a democrat winning in november to ensure a progressive supreme court and to keep the republicans from fucking shit more. His plan will never be accepted because it is easy to spin it to a tax increase that hurts people.
His plan is too unrealistic and idealistic to ever go through congress.
I would personally prefer a system that lowers the unreasonable cost of going to the hospital. I mean india doesn't have nationalize healthcare, but it sure does have cheaper healthcare. That is far more reasonable and easily to get people excited about it.
I am a pessimist. This plan will never fly with the average population.
The go old emotional appeal fallacy. If you can't make a good argument why not just try to appeal to people emotion. Let me ask you this, if you care so much about people, do you ever spend time to volunteer at homeless shelter? Do you donate money to the poor? Right now, you have internet and water while kid have none. Emotional appeal is usually a horrible argument to make since it can be easily reverse. I mean even the pope that cares about the poor isn't going to be come homeless just to help the poor.
E-Cat
Member
It is better to let people die than having a little less luxurious life.
I am disgusted by this thread.
The arguments in here sound a whole lot like what's going on with the B.L.M movement. "Blacks should definitely have equal rights but they better not block traffic on my way to work."
I think the main problem being that we still haven't established health care as a HUMAN right in this country. We are having that argument now but it will seem ridiculous in time.
Change is going to cause some discomfort but if it elevates us to become better more compassionate humans it's a good thing. Growing pains if you will.
I think the main problem being that we still haven't established health care as a HUMAN right in this country. We are having that argument now but it will seem ridiculous in time.
Change is going to cause some discomfort but if it elevates us to become better more compassionate humans it's a good thing. Growing pains if you will.
NullPointer
Member
Just ask people to guess what it would cost them if they were taken to the emergency room with a broken leg.
That's actually a terrifying prospect for many Americans.
Because everyone who's not 100% for this plan actually want to see poor people fight to the death and die horrible deaths while also gurgling on poor children's blood.
Seriously guys?
Euphoria14
Member
So that's my fault why?
So what, fuck me? Shouldn't have bought a house?
And look, I know this isn't everyone, but I have a coworker who just got back from Disney. He went with his kids and his in laws.
This person works in the stock room. His wife doesn't work and somehow, through her, gets to live in section 8 housing about 15 minutes from me (I have a neighbor down my street who does too), these are sometimes regular looking homes, like his. He also gets state benefits that give $400/month for food. He is also paying off tons of old fines so he can get his license back and then buying a car.
I can't even afford take my kid to Disney.
Makes me think I'm doing something wrong and now I'm being asked to pay even more while he won't. His costs will actually decrease.
E-Cat
Member
That's what it comes down to, if not necessarily in the way you describe. I am sorry if it's not an uplifting thought.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Well, that'd be a positive for me.
I don't disagree at all with your middle paragraph. But I strongly disagree with you saying it will screw everyone but the extremely poor. Perhaps your definition of extremely poor is someone who doesn't have the money to pay for an unexpected $500 emergency room visit. In which case 63% of Americans are extremely poor.
JesseEwiak
Member
Buy a slightly smaller house so millions of people have access to health care.
Ignoring the fact that NYU is a private college, so is your opinion that liberal arts degrees are worthless to society since they don't lead to be overpaid by a tech firm like STEM degrees do?
Someone makin 64K a year getting a 5 grand tax increase? The fuck outta here. It's why this old ass fucking fossil doesn't stand a chance.
silvermember
Banned
True, but a tax increase is an easier sell. Also how many people actually broke their legs? A lot of the people who do vote will say, my insurance will cover it and be on their way.
A tax increase is a very easy thing to win, that is why our current system hasn't change. There still some people out there that like the affordable care act, but call it Obamacare and they automatically hate it. Those are the type of people who go out and vote.
Sorry, I mean people making below 50k.
Bernie system will work well: IF employers are required to pass on their savings to their employees, we both know that will never happen. However, we are getting ahead of ourselves since congress exist.
Euphoria14
Member
I do live in a small house. It's a 3 BR, 1-1/2 floor cape with just 1 bathroom and just .17 acre of property in an area that used to be nothing but bungalows. Built in 1946.
House across the street is a 2 BR, 1 bathroom single story home with property half that of mine.
So forgive me if I say to buzz off with you saying for me to accept less.
Well let's enjoy the circus of poor people because you're going to convince no one.
I can already hear the post office with the letters to the representatives telling them to block this.
Are you seriously telling him to sell his house to improve the quality of life of total strangers?
That's the most Christian thing I've read this decade
E-Cat
Member
I am not trying to convince anyone. I am looking at this from far away with a mix of astonishment and pity.
Telling Americans health care should be a human right is sort of like teaching about hygiene in the middle ages.
God Dayumm
Banned
Except there can be universal healthcare without significantly raising taxes. Of course Bernie is too corrupt for that and he also needs an army to defend Israel and Palestine, so he wants his cake and the working class will have to pay
And condescending to boot.
I guess at least with universal healthcare it won't cost so much if you ever fall from that high horse.
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