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[Indicate]

If people would just move away from their self interest then change that benefits all would become a reality.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I paid $38/week for family medical when I started my job 8 years ago, then Obamacare went into effect and the following year it went up to $62/week.

Now I pay $89.50/week.

I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against because your cost almost tripled in 8 years.

 

[E-Cat]

I paid $38/week for family medical when I started my job 8 years ago, then Obamacare went into effect and the following year it went up to $62/week.

Now I pay $89.50/week.

Here's an idea. Don't blame Obama, blame the system that enables the insurance companies to rip you off.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

What I don't like is that he is always talking about a shrinking middle class, yet his plan will shrink it even more.

He talks about how his plan will save on average $5000, yet he will cost me an extra $5000.

I am middle class. $100,000/year family income (if wife doesn't get hurt, since her job provides no vacation hours whatsoever) and it doesn't go very far on Long Island.

His plan shrinks middle class here, so it actually goes against much of what he says.

OMG you make 100k a year combined income? Man I wish I could life the life of luxury you do and drive around in a new Bentley every week and wipe my ass with hundred dolla bills yo.

 

[Condom]

FYI, I'm on record (see an earlier post) as being tentatively supportive of such a tax structure (even though my tax burden would go up $10k per year), but I'd have to see an *extremely* concrete UHC plan before I jumped on board - if you're going to ask for so much money, then you have to demonstrate that the plan will actually cover everyone, cover enough services, and implement cost controls to prevent cost spikes. Also, there are real social costs to implementing something like this in a single go - people WILL lose homes and jobs, and there has to be a plan to address that, and you can't just say 'too bad' and expect people to jump on board.

You're fighting against 200+ years of fiscal conservatism and a government that managed to pass only the smallest of steps toward UHC, even with a completely Democratic Congress and Executive branch. Standing up and saying 'we're raising your taxes dramatically, but you'll like it in the end' just isn't going to cut it for a HUGE number of people. That's why I support incrementalism. Medicare and Social Security were phased in, and once people realized the benefit, they accepted the taxes to pay for it. UHC can work in the same way, and better than the 'all the tax increases, all at once' option.

Firstly sorry for the language I used, had a long day.

I understand your point and you are right in that it would cause a shock in the system. I thought that it was known that Sanders is calling for a political revolution. That should mean drastic changes to how the country operates in a short time.

I assumed people would be ready for that after years of political gridlock. If that is not the case then yes incremental changes would fare much better. You have the lending capabilities to afford a bit more debt so that shouldn't cause big issues.

 

[benjipwns]

Vox seems to have missed this is in Hillary's plan:

Another proposal would limit contributions to tax-favored retirement accounts, including traditional and Roth IRAs, defined benefit plans, and to defined contribution plans such as 401(k), 403(b), and 457(b) accounts. Currently, limitations apply to annual contributions and benefits for each plan an individual holds. However, an individual with multiple retirement accounts may accumulate very large balances within those accounts.7 The proposal would prohibit account holders from making additional contributions to any account once the sum of all account balances reaches a level adequate to finance the maximum annuity currently permitted for defined benefit plans. The account balance limit for an individual age 62 in 2015 would have been approximately $3.4 million under this rule.

 

[shinra-bansho]

If people would just move away from their self interest then change that benefits all would become a reality.

Everyone is self-interested. I'm self-interested in being willing to pay taxes that benefit others because it also benefits me from a societal perspective. It's simply more roundabout and nuanced.

 

[Euphoria14]

I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against because your cost almost tripled in 8 years.

I want t to stop increasing, but over the last 2 years it went up ~$5/week. With Bernies plan it raises $5,000.

I'm in a lose/lose more situation right now.

 

[Euphoria14]

OMG you make 100k a year combined income? Man I wish I could life the life of luxury you do and drive around in a new Bentley every week and wipe my ass with hundred dolla bills yo.

Joke post right? I'm almost positive it is written in a joking manner, but can never be sure.

$100,000 for a family of 3 isn't shit on Long Island.

 

[E-Cat]

Everyone is self-interested. I'm self-interested in being willing to pay taxes that benefit others because it also benefits me from a societal perspective. It's simply more roundabout and nuanced.

Or maybe it's because you have a theory of mind and realize that other people are sentient, too? You're giving yourself too little credit.

 

[Euphoria14]

Here's an idea. Don't blame Obama, blame the system that enables the insurance companies to rip you off.

I'm not blaming Obama.

Its that people in my position are lose/lose no matter what.

 

[E-Cat]

I'm not blaming Obama.

Its that people in my position are lose/lose no matter what.

Well, you have to look at the bigger picture. Don't you get something in return, too?

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Joke post right? I'm almost positive it is written in a joking manner, but can never be sure.

$100,000 for a family of 3 isn't shit on Long Island.

I didn't think my post required a /s but maybe it would need to be for the people that think a 5000+ tax increase is no big deal and something I should gladly pay cause I just make some ungodly amount of money.....

 

[Euphoria14]

Well, you have to look at the bigger picture. Don't you get something in return, too?

If my cost per year raises $5,000/year next year, what do I get in return?

My total costs will go up $60,000 by the time my kid hits college. $80,000 by the time she finishes 4 years.

StonyBrook would cost me under $40,000.

What did I gain outside of my fincances being squeezed to a point I can barely even afford, esp finally if one of my 15 year old cars give out?

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Vox seems to have missed this is in Hillary's plan:

Jesus between this and the OP post this thread has me wishing their was a third party candidate.

 

[Azzanadra]

Sure that's a nice thought, but the ONLY people who should be paying for this are the mega rich. He can go get fucked thinking he can tax the supposed middle class like that.
thats funny every person I've ever spoken to from Canada tells me how absolutely terrible and fucked the healthcare system is up there.

Who says the health care here is absolutely terrible and fucked? Its great, one of the best things about our country. Is it the best healthcare for some multi millionaire citizen? Probably not, but then again, they would probably go private anyways. For the lower to upper-middle class citizens, the healthcare is amazing. Our country treats us like human beings rather than inconveniences.

And I have to ask, is there a Republican side of Gaf I had yet to be exposed to or something? Because I feel like I've landed into Tred Cruz's supporters right here in this thread.

 

[fantomena]

This thread could be confused with a pro-GOP thread.

What the fuck did you whining-yollabees expect? You have to give up something for a safety net, healthcare and free college.

No wonder America is slow as a turtle when it comes to progressive politics.

 

[silvermember]

People will die on the streets, but at least I can get that awesome TV I've been saving up for. We deserve a Trump presidency.

Oh please.

The world is not just black or white.

Not liking Bernie's convoluted plan that makes kojima jealous, with a lot of parts to disasters is not even on the same spectrum as a trump world.

Nothing worse than arguing with an idealist. Anybody that questions a half baked plan is literally a racist, xenophobic, war criminal, and homophobic right?

 

[Azzanadra]

This thread could be confused with a pro-GOP thread.

What the fuck did you whining-yollabees expect? You have to give up something for a safety net, healthcare and free college.

No wonder America is slow as a turtle when it comes to progressive politics.

Yo honestly, it felt like there was a hidden side of GAF (the right wingers) that were just waiting for a moment to pounce. And honestly, this is why America can't have good things. You guys do this to yourselves. The path to a better living and country is one of hardships, it isn't going to be all unicorns and rainbows.

 

[johnny956]

Joke post right? I'm almost positive it is written in a joking manner, but can never be sure.

$100,000 for a family of 3 isn't shit on Long Island.

It's amazing the cost of living differences. I'm in St Louis and we were making 100k combined between me and the wife before she went back to school and I consider us middle class just barely if that

 

[E-Cat]

If my cost per year raises $5,000/year next year, what do I get in return?

No private insurance premiums, for one. That's under Bernie's plan, anyway.

 

[Euphoria14]

I didn't think my post required a /s but maybe it would need to be for the people that think a 5000+ tax increase is no big deal and something I should gladly pay cause I just make some ungodly amount of money.....

I figured that was the case. It's just so hard to know on this forum.

It's as if I people think $5000 is nothing and $100,000 family income makes you rich and live in a big home with nice cars and an in ground pool.

 

[Euphoria14]

No private insurance premiums, for one. That's under Bernie's plan, anyway.

My premium is $4600/year.

My taxes would go up $9000.

Increased of $4400/year for me and my plan has $0 copays.

 

[Yen]

I've noticed that Vox really, really hates Bernie Sanders

.

 

[harSon]

Even gaf becomes conservative when it comes to THEIR taxes.

Well it would really suck to have your taxes raised considerably when you're making $33/hr despite living in a city where the Median price of a 1BR apartment is $1800+ (San Jose, CA) and rising. On top of the fact that you're only paying $840 a year for health insurance. I wouldn't be poor by any means, but it'd definitely suck.

 

[Box]

I don't understand how $100K income is desperate living for so many people. I don't make close to that. I should be like starving or something.

 

[ApharmdX]

Who says the health care here is absolutely terrible and fucked? Its great, one of the best things about our country. Is it the best healthcare for some multi millionaire citizen? Probably not, but then again, they would probably go private anyways. For the lower to upper-middle class citizens, the healthcare is amazing. Our country treats us like human beings rather than inconveniences.

And I have to ask, is there a Republican side of Gaf I had yet to be exposed to or something? Because I feel like I've landed into Tred Cruz's supporters right here in this thread.

Many Americans are social progressives but fiscal conservatives (or moderates, which to you would be a conservative). You can see it here. It's encouraged by the elites and corporations, who don't really care what people do with their bodies, but do really care about having to pay higher taxes.

We'll get past this one day, maybe. It seems strange to me that the rest of the Western world has figured out the importance of a strong social safety net, but America hasn't... even our left wing establishment is "bootstraps" when it comes to paying for everyone to have health care.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Who says the health care here is absolutely terrible and fucked? Its great, one of the best things about our country. Is it the best healthcare for some multi millionaire citizen? Probably not, but then again, they would probably go private anyways. For the lower to upper-middle class citizens, the healthcare is amazing. Our country treats us like human beings rather than inconveniences.

And I have to ask, is there a Republican side of Gaf I had yet to be exposed to or something? Because I feel like I've landed into Tred Cruz's supporters right here in this thread.

I worked for a company with several families from Canada and every single one hated the fuck out of it. And just because you disagree with this batshit fucking insane plan doesn't make you a republican. And if you are a republican doesn't mean you are some blood sucking white supremacist devil either. So drop that generalistic bullshit.

I figured that was the case. It's just so hard to know on this forum.

It's as if I people think $5000 is nothing and $100,000 family income makes you rich and live in a big home with nice cars and an in ground pool.

Hey, you make more money than other people on GAF and you should be fucking ashamed. In fact I bet you haven't worked a hard day in your life and have had everything given to you on a silver platter. Shame on you for not willing to take that 9000 dollar hit a year you fucking scumbag.

 

[Volimar]

So if I'm poor and get medicare or medicaid and most of my medical expenses are already paid, and then this gets passed...wouldn't I be paying more? I mean, if I already got most of my medical expenses for free and now I'd be getting them AND having to pay this new tax...

 

[johnny956]

My premium is $4600/year.

My taxes would go up $9000.

Increased of $4400/year for me and my plan has $0 copays.

Is that your premium your paying or the total amount including your employer?

 

[Angelus Errare]

I don't understand how $100K income is desperate living for so many people. I don't make close to that. I should be like starving or something.

Americans live beyond their means at every income level is the simple answer. I make 75k a year and I still live like I'm only making 30k. I still stay in the same $800/month townhome. I still have the same $17,000 car (that's been paid off for ages).

 

[Euphoria14]

I don't understand how $100K income is desperate living for so many people. I don't make close to that. I should be like starving or something.

Depends where you live.

Problem with Bernie is he looks at everything as if it is the same. $15/hour would be great on Long Island, if you have a partner who also works. Although $62,400 doesn't get all that far here anyways.

$15/hour is a rural area with a low cost of living? It's fantastic since it doesn't cost $1,200 for a 1BR apartment.

Want a cheap house on Long Island, and I mean "cheap"? Try $200,000.

Good luck on $15/hour or combined $30/hour.


Want a cheap house in Buffalo? Try under $100,000.

$15/hour looks Fantastic!

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Americans live beyond their means at every income level is the simple answer. I make 75k a year and I still live like I'm only making 30k. I still stay in the same $800/month townhome. I still have the same $17,000 car (that's been paid off for ages).

I make the same as you and worked my ass to get that just like I'm sure you did. I live in a very reasonable condo and haven't had a car payment in years. This would still affect me, are you saying this plan wouldn't even phase you?

 

[Azzanadra]

I worked for a company with several families from Canada and every single one hated the fuck out of it. And just because you disagree with this batshit fucking insane plan doesn't make you a republican. And if you are a republican doesn't mean you are some blood sucking white supremacist devil either. So drop that generalistic bullshit.

Those families don't know how good they have it them or you are making things up. I'm kind of leaning towards the latter, because the amount of vitriol these supposed "families" have for our healthcare system would make you think we have monkeys as doctors and are living in 13th century England. The could say "its not bad but it could be better" but "hated the fuck out of it" lends itself to a far more grave and sinister type of incompetence on our healthcare's part if its as bad as you suggest.... which I might be tempted to believe if I didn't, y'know, actually live here.

 

[Kite]

Even gaf becomes conservative when it comes to THEIR taxes.

That is always the case, no? It is always very easy to spend other people's money.

"Just tax the rich, they'll pay for it! They have enough!"

No one thinks they're well-off, just look at all the posters making $100k/yr trying to convince people of their hardship. Those making $35k thru $50k also don't think they're very secure and are shocked that they're also getting hit with part of the bill.

 

[damisa]

Americans live beyond their means at every income level is the simple answer. I make 75k a year and I still live like I'm only making 30k. I still stay in the same $800/month townhome. I still have the same $17,000 car (that's been paid off for ages).

I am paying $2200 month for a small 1 bedroom apartment, costs can vary massively

 

[Euphoria14]

I worked for a company with several families from Canada and every single one hated the fuck out of it. And just because you disagree with this batshit fucking insane plan doesn't make you a republican. And if you are a republican doesn't mean you are some blood sucking white supremacist devil either. So drop that generalistic bullshit.



Hey, you make more money than other people on GAF and you should be fucking ashamed. In fact I bet you haven't worked a hard day in your life and have had everything given to you on a silver platter. Shame on you for not willing to take that 9000 dollar hit a month you fucking scumbag.

Agreed 100%.

Im going to work even harder so I can pay more down the road so everyone can benefit!

Fuck my own family and the life we built for ourselves.

 

[Tesseract]

Why is there no thread for Hillary's Michigan rally. She's talking about almost everything itt with Vulcan logic.

This speech is boss as fuck, dank-age meter broken

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Those families don't know how good they have it them or you are making things up. I'm kind of leaning towards the latter, because the amount of vitriol these supposed "families" have for our healthcare system would make you think we have monkeys as doctors and are living in 13th century England. The could say "its not bad but it could be better" but "hated the fuck out of it" lends itself to a far more grave and sinister type of incompetence on our healthcare's part if its as bad as you suggest.... which I might be tempted to believe if I didn't, y'know, actually live here.

It takes about 5 seconds using Google to see the general faults in Canadian healthcare system that most people tend to complain about that you know, actually do/have lived there.

 

[Breads]

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to find healthcare in America for $165 a year otherwise.

I spend almost that much per doctor visit ($119) :/

 

[Azzanadra]

It takes about 5 seconds using Google to see the general faults in Canadian healthcare system that most people tend to complain about that you know, actually do/have lived there.

There's a difference between general faults and the way you're describing it as some horrible system that needs to be done away with. I even said its not perfect, but there's a difference between "there are some problems" and "OMG its so fucking bad, worst thing ever". If you want to go down that hyperbolic route, America also has issues with its health care. Its not perfect either.

 

[Tesseract]

She's talking about automation and shit, this is a GE speech

 

[x-Lundz-x]

There's a difference between general faults and the way you're describing it as some horrible system that needs to be done away with. I even said its not perfect, but there's a difference between "there are some problems" and "OMG its so fucking bad, worst thing ever". If you want to go down that hyperbolic route, America also has issues with its health care. Its not perfect either.

My only point is that it's not some beacon of hope that everyone should be striving for because that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Box]

Depends where you live.

Problem with Bernie is he looks at everything as if it is the same. $15/hour would be great on Long Island, if you have a partner who also works. Although $62,400 doesn't get all that far here anyways.

$15/hour is a rural area with a low cost of living? It's fantastic since it doesn't cost $1,200 for a 1BR apartment.

Want a cheap house on Long Island, and I mean "cheap"? Try $200,000.

Good luck on $15/hour or combined $30/hour.


Want a cheap house in Buffalo? Try under $100,000.

$15/hour looks Fantastic!

But dude you don't just make $62K, you make $100K. If you can barely make the ends meet with all of that extra money, how do the people at $62K survive, even without these taxes?

 

[johnny956]

Has anyone looked at the actual report? I'm trying to figure out how Vox got the huge numbers? The actual tax rate is staying the same for the 4th lowest brackets which goes up to 237,000. Yes they'll be a 2.2% payroll tax and I think an additional .3% for social security. The rest is capital gain tax increases which won't apply to the majority of people. I'm sure I'm overlooking something but not seeing how it'll be the numbers Vox listed

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

.

lmao, Matt has written several articles praising Bernie recently.

Mostly because he's a contrarian and Bernie's campaign is dead, but still.

 

[JustenP88]

I'm glad I don't have to grow up in the dystopian socialist hellscape every american living through the 1940s-1980s had to endure. Reagan blessed us with his wisdom and we were free.

 

[JohnsonUT]

Depends where you live.

Problem with Bernie is he looks at everything as if it is the same. $15/hour would be great on Long Island, if you have a partner who also works. Although $62,400 doesn't get all that far here anyways.

$15/hour is a rural area with a low cost of living? It's fantastic since it doesn't cost $1,200 for a 1BR apartment.

Want a cheap house on Long Island, and I mean "cheap"? Try $200,000.

Good luck on $15/hour or combined $30/hour.


Want a cheap house in Buffalo? Try under $100,000.

$15/hour looks Fantastic!

How is that Bernie's problem? That is literally how the US government works. That is how the federal government has worked and how it will continue working, regardless of whether Bernie Sanders is in government or not. This is not unique to the tax plans mentioned in this thread. If it concerns you so much, you are allowed to freely move to any other physical location in the US. If you like where you live, you are free to stay there, knowing that nothing is going to change and all tax increases are going to affect you more and all tax cuts are going to benefit you less.

 

[Pagusas]

as middle class if someone told me they would increase my taxes by 9 thousand a year I'd tell them I'd never ever vote for you no matter how much i like your ideas. Simply can not afford that.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

I don't understand how $100K income is desperate living for so many people. I don't make close to that. I should be like starving or something.

In general people live relative to their income level. Me and my wife now live in a neighborhood much nicer than the one I lived in when I was making 39k a year. We didn't just up and decide one day to move into a more expensive area on a whim. We saved and moved somewhere that would give us the quality of life we want while still being able to save for our family home and pay for all the costs associated with having a child. It's not that we are living desperately it's that our current plan doesn't account for a 15k drop in income. I haven't seen the particulars of his projected rollout but something like this would have to be rolled out very gradually, I'm talking about over a decade gradual.

This plan also assumes employers will pass those savings on to their employees in the form of increased salaries. This sounds an awful lot like what was promised with trickle down economics so you have to excuse people when they are skeptical of this.