I live on LI now. You go to SBU for the accelerated program? That's where my fiancee graduated.
And 100,000 is a joke here, barely enough to live in a house.
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Vox: Bernie Sanders's tax hikes are bigger than Donald Trump's tax cuts
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I live on LI now. You go to SBU for the accelerated program? That's where my fiancee graduated.
And 100,000 is a joke here, barely enough to live in a house.
JesseEwiak
Member
Well, forgive me for thinking that going from having a better standard of living than 75% of the population instead of 80% of the population wouldn't be the catastrophic loss you believe it is and again, I say this as somebody who think Bernie's plan is kind of screwy.
But yes, if you want a society where the lower classes aren't living on the edge of disaster, your quality of life will have to get slightly worse in the short run, but in the long run, you'll have less crime, a more educated workforce, and a better society.
But a smaller house or no house so millenials can have free parties at college for a year and never go to class.
I knew so many freshmen who never went to class and was just there to have a good time and that was with their parents paying for them or using TOPS. The thought of them getting to do that for free hurts.
I knew so many freshmen who never went to class and was just there to have a good time and that was with their parents paying for them or using TOPS. The thought of them getting to do that for free hurts.
Barrage
Member
This plan looks pretty bad to me, but Bernie ain't getting elected anyway so it's all hypothetical.
The fact is, if you want the higher quality of life that comes with healthcare and (potentially) free tuition, it's not a painless process. Americans want the result but they don't want to think about how to get there.
If a politician proposed a 5% tax on all goods and services sold they would be laughed out of office.
But that's exactly what we have here in Canada. And trust me, for health care I don't mind it one damn bit.
The fact is, if you want the higher quality of life that comes with healthcare and (potentially) free tuition, it's not a painless process. Americans want the result but they don't want to think about how to get there.
If a politician proposed a 5% tax on all goods and services sold they would be laughed out of office.
But that's exactly what we have here in Canada. And trust me, for health care I don't mind it one damn bit.
I make in the same ball park as you, and I also have $30K of student loan looming behind my back. However, I don't mind paying those extra taxes and squeezing my financial budget so that all of my fellow citizens have access to healthcare. We are all in this together, shouldn't we take care of the less fortunate and underprivileged in our society? Isn't this the moral thing to do?
JesseEwiak
Member
And some poor people buy steak and soda with their food stamps. The horror!
theoretically, you have a 50/50 chance of being under or below 52k
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Again though, why is universal healthcare the biggest issue? It's more like he's trying to find free college and universal healthcare all at once which is unfeasible.
Euphoria14
Member
It was a small building on the NYIT campus off Carlton avenue, near the Ducks ballpark.
I believe that place it located in Brentwood now.
It was $11,000 I believe. With financial aid the cost was around $5,500 to then work in home pediatric nursing which pays $32/hour.
We got that for almost the same that my taxes would go up by!
E-Cat
Member
Universal health care with no tax hike sounds to me like having your cake and eating it, too. But if you can make it work, go for it!
I don't give a damn about political correctness in matters like these, but this is actually me containing myself.
You're right, but income as a metric of economic stability really means very little without the proper context.
See what $100,000 gets you in SF or really anywhere on Long Island... I think it will surprise many.
Euphoria14
Member
Losing my house would be catastrophic.
I got lucky that my mortgage is $1500/month. That includes my property tax and insurance.
You know what a 2br rent would cost if I lost my house?
More than $1500, plus rent goes up. My mortgage will not. Plus renting leaves me in the same car problem I'm in now.
So you have no clue.
silvermember
Banned
Universal healthcare and free college are both good plans. it should be something we strive for. The problem with Bernie is that he is too extreme i a country that usually prefers a centrist.
Free college and Uuniversal healthcare are far too big to be achievable in such a short period of time AND more importantly without creating a shock to the system. It is better to do it piece by piece to sure. Too many moving parts for it to be viable, but like I said, assuming congress decided to do it.
I just looked up Long Island's cost of living, housing prices, property taxes, etc. It seems like that is one of the worst places to live in the US in terms of how far your money goes. So, I think I can empathize with where you are coming from. It seems you get taxed like you are upper middle class or even wealthy, but have to struggle to even live a middle class life. The counter argument would be if you got taxed like the middle class, the middle class in the rest of the country would be vastly underpaying.
We have three options in terms of health care.
1) Do nothing and let it continue to be poor for most Americans.
2) Change it to UHC but don't fund it
3) Change it to UHC and raise taxes to fund it.
This is accurate.
Rent for a 2 BR, 1.5 bath condo in a pretty bad area was ~1,800 a month for us before moving.
This is why Sanders is a bad candidate. His platform is to give everyone a tax hike to fund programs he has no hope of ever getting through Congress. Everyone reacts poorly to the tax hikes and suddenly even the rainbows and unicorns he's promising don't seem so great anymore anyway.
"Wait, I thought those rich fat cats and corporations were gonna give everyone a free health care! I didn't realize the middle class was gonna have to pay too..."
"Wait, I thought those rich fat cats and corporations were gonna give everyone a free health care! I didn't realize the middle class was gonna have to pay too..."
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
There is such a thing as priorities though. UHC is probably a bigger priority, whereas college tuition can be helped by making debt less privatised and introducing subsidies.
NullPointer
Member
shinra-bansho
Member
The relative elasticities in a particular labour market will affect the outcome, but from recollection research typically shows the payroll tax incidence on employees is larger than 20%; and in certain cases can essentially be completely borne by employees. Figures I recall seeing are generally around 50%, 60%.
what shocks me is people want their cake and to eat it too.
Like our infrastructure is literally crumbling around us, but people refuse to acknowledge that our parents and their parents tax dollars paid for that shit. It costs money to pay for that up keep, but it seems people would rather let it rot than have to give the government a single dollar more.
My wife and I do really well, if they changed the tax backet to say we would pay 5% more than the current tax bracket in, would it really affect us that much? No. But it would affect people making millions and or billions but its going to affect them a lot less. Its just ridiculous the amount of greed we have in this country.
Another instance is Americans in general HATE to see someone get something for free, especially if its from the government. You have people making 50-60 or 100k a year that get mad when people making minimum wage want a few dollars more just to get buy, or god forbid someone is on welfare, as if they are living the high life on whatever the hell welfare gives you.
If you don't waste money in the military-industrial sink hole you can pay for a lot of things.
The US giving millions to Israel for no reason is great if you live in Israel (or work for Boeing I guess) but for the average American?
PC is not about fee-fees not being hurt, it's about not putting undue barriers to your ideas getting through.
If you think antagonizing people is the best way to go through, it's nice you found a way to feel better than the lesser people you make fun of.
Absolutely disgusted by the selfish responses here. I thought Gaf was a progressive forum... Apparently I didn't get the fucking memo you fucking Ted Cruz wannabes. I guess you really don't give a fuck about people dying in the streets.
I'll take it one step further, the fuck you got mine attitude on display from Hillary and "former" Bernie supporters shows exactly why racism will never cease in your country.
For true equality to happen you need to understand that you are going to have to give something up if you are privileged period. This thread could easily be mistaken for a pro GOP with the amount of whining that you have to help your fellow man.
Fucking disgusting, thank god I live in Canada, where the basic human right to healthcare is not a fucking "pipe dream". Your country is not special, comparing it to the majority of other 1st world countries is not "apples to oranges" it's reality.
I'll take it one step further, the fuck you got mine attitude on display from Hillary and "former" Bernie supporters shows exactly why racism will never cease in your country.
For true equality to happen you need to understand that you are going to have to give something up if you are privileged period. This thread could easily be mistaken for a pro GOP with the amount of whining that you have to help your fellow man.
Fucking disgusting, thank god I live in Canada, where the basic human right to healthcare is not a fucking "pipe dream". Your country is not special, comparing it to the majority of other 1st world countries is not "apples to oranges" it's reality.
Colonel Mustard
Banned
It sounds like we make around the same, and I completely agree. I would rather pay more a year than watch any more of the people I grew up with die in their mid 20's, due to not having access to healthcare.
It's ridiculous.
I'd like to see us fund a huge infrastructure repair project before we fund free college. $1T would go a long way toward fixing what's broken and adding new things (high speed rail, or hyperloop, or something). Lots of 'shovel ready' jobs and something of benefit to everyone.
UHC is still a higher priority goal, but if I were going to spend so much money and the choice was between free college and an infrastructure project, I'd rather it go toward the thing with broader benefit rather than something that has a narrower benefit.
ugaboga232
Member
Healthcare spending dwarfs military spending by a huge amount and a lot of military spending is already healthcare.
E-Cat
Member
Right, I was thinking with all else being equal--which would be an oxymoron.
Well, good luck to you guys. I (sort of) believe in you.
Sure that's a nice thought, but the ONLY people who should be paying for this are the mega rich. He can go get fucked thinking he can tax the supposed middle class like that.
thats funny every person I've ever spoken to from Canada tells me how absolutely terrible and fucked the healthcare system is up there.
Yup, it's takes most people to experiance a medical disaster for them to realize their faith in the current system will not prevent their life from changing drastically.
Too many people live in the moment, with no understanding of how rough the future will be. The ACA doesn't prevent you from losing everything, it just takes a bit longer. Regardless, if you suffer a medical emergency your life is going to decline significantly and rather quickly.
Skellig Gra
Member
This thread is amazing. Here I thought I was a moderate on this forum but apparently I'm incredibly far left because I'm willing to pay more taxes so our country has a future. Maybe it's because I have a son now and don't want him to pay a million dollars to go to a shitty school and have 20k a month health care premiums.
No, it's more like they want the lower taxes and don't care about the European welfare part.
Trying to fund everything all at once like this is asking for disaster. Incremental change is the way to go. If the economy stays good and you really have to have fully implemented UHC all at once, then maybe consider having the bulk of the first year of the plan paid by government bonds (aka debt) and then phasing in the tax increases over time to fund the plan in a balanced way, People would likely be more willing to pay increased taxes if a) you phase them in over a few years, and b) demonstrate real benefit that comes with UHC so that people are willing to shell the money out. Sure, you run the risk of implementing the plan and not following through with the tax increases, but it's not like that's any worse than developing such an expensive plan all at once and spiking taxes so much to pay for it.
Forget UHC, you guys can't handle it if you think these tax hikes are something unacceptable.
Enjoy your $2k tax savings tho
Angry Puppy
Member
Damn Bernie is just bad news for the people. There would be no future for the country if this plan goes through.
*Denzelboom.gif*
certainly seems like it
though I will admit to having a morbid curiosity on how that would play out
also I want to ask again since I didn't get a response on my last post: is this news taking into account the savings people would have from not having to pay the current healthcare costs? are these the 'after savings' $ amounts per income group?
WarMacheen
Member
324 a month in premiums and a $5400 deductible. Even though I'm sure my taxes would go up by at least 9k I'm ok with this if I don't have to deal with insurance company bullshit
Euphoria14
Member
What I don't like is that he is always talking about a shrinking middle class, yet his plan will shrink it even more.
He talks about how his plan will save on average $5000, yet he will cost me an extra $5000.
I am middle class. $100,000/year family income (if wife doesn't get hurt, since her job provides no vacation hours whatsoever) and it doesn't go very far on Long Island.
His plan shrinks middle class here, so it actually goes against much of what he says.
FYI, I'm on record (see an earlier post) as being tentatively supportive of such a tax structure (even though my tax burden would go up $10k per year), but I'd have to see an *extremely* concrete UHC plan before I jumped on board - if you're going to ask for so much money, then you have to demonstrate that the plan will actually cover everyone, cover enough services, and implement cost controls to prevent cost spikes. Also, there are real social costs to implementing something like this in a single go - people WILL lose homes and jobs, and there has to be a plan to address that, and you can't just say 'too bad' and expect people to jump on board.
You're fighting against 200+ years of fiscal conservatism and a government that managed to pass only the smallest of steps toward UHC, even with a completely Democratic Congress and Executive branch. Standing up and saying 'we're raising your taxes dramatically, but you'll like it in the end' just isn't going to cut it for a HUGE number of people. That's why I support incrementalism. Medicare and Social Security were phased in, and once people realized the benefit, they accepted the taxes to pay for it. UHC can work in the same way, and better than the 'all the tax increases, all at once' option.
Saren is Bad
Member
Your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.
Indeed. Good luck America, you're going to need it.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Seems like some Europeans don't understand just how poor the non-1% of Americans really are
Skellig Gra
Member
If we never raise taxes or invest in the country the burden will increasingly fall on the individuals. Look at the constant increases in college tuition and health insurance.
Euphoria14
Member
Amen.
Someone on GAF directed me to a chart stating I am just about the Top 20% percentile in the U.S.
Yet I can't afford new cars and we drive 15 year old vehicles with 150,000+ miles.
Hari Seldon
Member
Not worthless, but a luxury item that tax dollars do not need to pay for. An English Lit or Philosophy degree is a major for someone with a trust fund, not even remotely necessary for society to function and prosper like nurses, doctors, STEM, accountants, etc.
Bernie has my ax for healthcare but not for this, unless you are talking about community colleges.
Euphoria14
Member
I paid $38/week for family medical when I started my job 8 years ago, then Obamacare went into effect and the following year it went up to $62/week.
Now I pay $89.50/week.
Jesus, what the fuck am I reading?
So you are suggesting the everyone but the top 1% is poor? Okay.
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