I agree.
JABEE said:
When your religion thinks that it's fine to hurt/kill LGBTQ people then laws need to be put in place to ensure people are aware that it's not okay and it's not accepted in our society.
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WaPo: Merkel calls for widespread ban on full veil Islamic coverings
- Thread starter Bonen no Max'd
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I agree.
When your religion thinks that it's fine to hurt/kill LGBTQ people then laws need to be put in place to ensure people are aware that it's not okay and it's not accepted in our society.
I wonder if they were voluntarily indoctrinated into their religion when they were young.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
False equivalency 101, just like people saying Clinton and Trump were both equally bad
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Do you have proof of this?
i feel the same honestly.
Back-In-Black
Banned
His bum.
Yep. Now you can't go to courts and administrative offices.
All because someone dressing different hurts your western sensibilities.
The motivations behind enacting these laws are the worrisome thing.
Super_Cobra
Member
I agree. Burqas are a disgrace to women.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
The change has to start at some point, no easy solution to this
If countries like Germany and France don't tolerate it then that should be respected
Chezzymann
Member
I honestly think that even if people say they want to wear it as a choice it may still be rooted in peer pressure and fear of rejection
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Not sure this is effective nor that there are even that many women wearing burqas in germany but I despise this religious practice and would be glad for it to be gone.
You can't wear balaclavas or motorcycle helmets in public places in the UK, not sure how the rest of Europe views them, but here they get a similar level of distain to the burka.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
People will always look at foreigners with bewilderment and scorn. That's the whole point. You shouldn't let society give into fear, not one inch.
As someone who is from a muslim country and moved away to get away from this shit, I disagree completely.
Change has to start somewhere. Throwing your hands up and just allowing women to be treated like this isn't going to change anything.
Hmm a bit divided on this issue.
On one hand it's clearly an oppressive sexist device, regardless if it's been internalized and accepted or not. And I can absolutely sympathize with security concerns in public spaces.
On the other hand, this could create a feeling of misdirected oppression, and people should ideally be free to wear what the want publicly.
Then again, we're not free to walk around naked in public, so there's that precedent.
On one hand it's clearly an oppressive sexist device, regardless if it's been internalized and accepted or not. And I can absolutely sympathize with security concerns in public spaces.
On the other hand, this could create a feeling of misdirected oppression, and people should ideally be free to wear what the want publicly.
Then again, we're not free to walk around naked in public, so there's that precedent.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
Again, false equivalency
And the same people who do this to prove their point get mad when Clinton and Trump were portrayed as "the same thing"
Sounds like you don't really understand why something like a Hijab is fundamentally different from a burka.
Wearing a Hijab is, at its core, supposed to be entirely voluntary. Are some women compelled by their families and the society they live in to wear it? unfortunately, yes - And in that sense, it becomes a violation of their rights, and not in the spirit of the self-expression of faith that the veil is intended to represent. This situation does not apply to all or most Muslim women, however; At the end of the day, they must be within their rights to freely express their beliefs as they see fit, without compulsion from anyone.
My problem is that it seems like a punishment or a response to "these people aren't living the right way." Let's take away their cultural identity and clothing.
Why not ban all clerical clothing from government buildings? They won't because this isn't about a dress code. It's about putting immigrants in their place.
LordOfChaos
Member
Illegal: Wearing a removable religious thing
Still legal: Cutting off healthy bits of a baby boys genitals for religion (or sexual preference).
Still legal: Cutting off healthy bits of a baby boys genitals for religion (or sexual preference).
EnlightenedMint
Member
I'm sure ISIS are pleased, they love legislation that specificlly targets Muslims.
ClosingADoor
Member
Good, we should not tolerate oppression of women, which I think the religious rules like these are.
While banning them might to some also feel like oppression, it is the lesser of two evils.
While banning them might to some also feel like oppression, it is the lesser of two evils.
His Majesty
Banned
For this generation I assume most will make the switch to the hijab. For future generations this is especially an important decision as it takes away one more barrier towards succesful integration.
When everyone else wears normal clothing to go to work and out and about, why should certain people be given freedom to cover themselves up completely to the point no one can tell of the person's identity?
Rest assured that if you see someone walking around with cover/mask on the street, he/she too will be apprehended.
On that note, why is it only the women who have to cover themselves fully while the men can show off his big gut hanging out while walking with his wife? That's a clear case of sexism.
DragonSworne
Banned
You are upset that Germans don't want to see people being oppressed in their country?
Fine, but this IS oppression. It is a gross overreach of government, infringing on personal freedoms.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
Exactly, even though I wouldn't call the burka ban evil in any way
DOWN
Banned
I hope this question doesn't come off disrespectful but these coverings are only for women and there's not a male equivalent im aware of. Is this presumably because men in these cultures came up with and used power to impose them on women but not upon themselves?
I don't know the history but I see some debate on how voluntary these coverings are
I don't know the history but I see some debate on how voluntary these coverings are
Mass_Pincup
Banned
If by "full veil" she means burka I'm all for it.
It is said nowhere in the Quran that women have to wear it so I don't see it as an intrusion of the state in religion.
The government of like every country does that for a wide array of cases.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to walk around naked in most countries for exemple.
I'm not equating the two, just that it's not unheard of from a government to do that.
It is said nowhere in the Quran that women have to wear it so I don't see it as an intrusion of the state in religion.
The government of like every country does that for a wide array of cases.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to walk around naked in most countries for exemple.
I'm not equating the two, just that it's not unheard of from a government to do that.
I'm really against the niqab and what it stands for, but I'm not sure that a blanket ban is the way to go. It definitely should not be allowed anywhere where facial recognition is vital for security or verification purposes, but I think how a person chooses to dress in public shouldn't be controlled by the government.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Can we ban hats next
I don't like hats
I don't like hats
Actually in Italy if you enter in a public places with a full helmet you may be legally prosecuted. You can't cover your face completely, except in some case and motorcycle riding is obviously one
Frankfurter
Member
Very sad to see that Merkel now also seems to cater to the right... she pretty much said the exact opposite of this just a couple of months ago. Hopefully, SPD will be worth sth. for once and block a law if CDU/CSU really go for it.
There are already situations in which covering your face, wearing a balaclava or a clown mask for example, is illegal and has been for decades (§17a VersG, §23 StVO). That ban simply wasn't enforced for Muslims. It's mostly about safety concerns and identification, and that is their business. I'm pretty sure there won't be a "burka ban" specifically, they'll simply apply the same rules that are already enforced for everybody else.
You mean the personal freedom of their husbands to beat them? Now they're literally breaking the law by forcing their wives to wear these types of clothing. Even the ones who do it not out of pressure but of personal decisions have only come to those decisions through an upbringing teaching them oppression and a lack of women's rights is normal.
Lesser of two evils.
Perfect Blue
Banned
One of those laws where it's like *shrug* nothing of value lost either way.
I feel like the answer isn't to oppress people's religious freedom because of the sexist practice of a religion practiced by mostly immigrants to Germany. I feel this is the kind of shit that is done to strip the cultural identities of foreigners and ostracize them for being different.
michaelius
Banned
And how is banning full veil going to help that ?
It's empty gesture that targets symptoms and not real problem of not integrating immigrants who refuse to accept western rules.
No, it is the same thing. It regulating clothing on the back of promoting feminism. The problem being that free-will and learned behavior have a really intertwined relationship because we don't exist in vacuums and that this only fights symbology and not anything tangible like say physical or psychological abuse. As a guy I've had to wear pants every day of my life because of both society's expectations and my parents dressing me from a young age, but it'd be really backwards to make laws to tell me to wear a dress to free my penis, even if it has some merit because I'd still like to wear pants.
His Majesty
Banned
France has already banned the burqa. The law was subsequently challenged and the European Court of Human Rights ruled in favour of France, citing that the law 'encouraged citizens to live together'.
So I don't see why Germany couldn't introduce a similar law.
If you choose not to wear jeans you're not in danger of losing your family, getting acid thrown in your face, or being stoned to death.
Captain Smoker
Member
She probably wouldn't even call for this if the far-right wasn't on the rise in Germany.
Personal opinion: Burkas suck, like come on, look at this.
Probably wouldn't even be that bad if the face wasn't covered 100% aswell, which is probably my biggest problem with this and the reasons why some women have to wear it.
Moral problem starts with women who wear this voluntarily of course (and other shades of this discussion), which contradicts with my belief that the free will shouldn't be restricted.
Personal opinion: Burkas suck, like come on, look at this.
Probably wouldn't even be that bad if the face wasn't covered 100% aswell, which is probably my biggest problem with this and the reasons why some women have to wear it.
Moral problem starts with women who wear this voluntarily of course (and other shades of this discussion), which contradicts with my belief that the free will shouldn't be restricted.
To be honest you don't really see muslim women walking around with burkas.
In my 25 years of life i have seen maybe 5 women wear one(living in germanys second largest city)
Almost all muslim women are either not using any religious clothing or wear a hijab which is generally accepted by the public.
This is mostly to appease right wingers and won't really do a difference for the vast majority of muslim women in our country
HiredN00bs
Member
Well put. We're shouting at each other while the women who are affected by all of this don't have a fair say. That's the real injustice, and you aren't going to fix it with one gimmicky law.
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