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[His Majesty]

To be honest you don't really see muslim women walking around with burkas.
In my 25 years of life i have seen maybe 5 women wear one(living in germanys second largest city)
Almost all muslim women are either not using any religious clothing or wear a hijab which is generally accepted by the public.

This is mostly to appease right wingers and won't really do a difference for the vast majority of muslim women in our country

Yes only a small percentage will be affected, this is mainly populist talk from Merkel because elections are approaching. Which doesn't take away from the fact that pushing this law is ultimately a good thing for the cohesiveness of German society.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

This is really not the right way to fight this battle

This just serves to further radicalize

 

[HellforLeather]

No, it is the same thing. It regulating clothing on the back of promoting feminism. The problem being that free-will and learned behavior have a really intertwined relationship because we don't exist in vacuums and that this only fights symbology and not anything tangible like say physical or psychological abuse. As a guy I've had to wear pants every day of my life because of both society's expectations and my parents dressing me from a young age, but it'd be really backwards to make laws to tell me to wear a dress to free my penis, even if it has some merit because I'd still like to wear pants.

Is this her stated reasoning?

 

[ClosingADoor]

I feel like the answer isn't to oppress people's religious freedom because of the sexist practice of a religion practiced by mostly immigrants to Germany. I feel this is the kind of shit that is done to strip the cultural identities of foreigners and ostracize them for being different.

No, it is to prevent the normalization of religious oppression.

 

[KingSnake]

This is really not the right way to fight this battle

This just serves to further radicalize

I'm afraid that whoever wears a full veil or is forced to wear a full veil is already involved in radicalisation one way or another.

 

[SlimySnake]

This is how you win elections folks. Hillary should have done this.

Also, i hate the hijab and the niqab. Both need to go. But forcing people to wear something or not wear something is a slippery slope.

 

[pigeon]

Yes only a small percentage will be affected, this is mainly populist talk from Merkel because elections are approaching. Which doesn't take away from the fact that pushing this law is ultimately a good thing for the cohesiveness of German society.

If by "cohesiveness" you mean "marginalizing or eliminating cultures that aren't German enough for you," then sure.

This is how you win elections folks. Hillary should have done this.

This would be deeply unconstitutional in America. Also, frankly, if the Democrats need to pander to islamophobes to win elections then Muslims and people of color can't live safely in America.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

No, it is the same thing. It regulating clothing on the back of promoting feminism. The problem being that free-will and learned behavior have a really intertwined relationship because we don't exist in vacuums and that this only fights symbology and not anything tangible like say physical or psychological abuse. As a guy I've had to wear pants every day of my life because of both society's expectations and my parents dressing me from a young age, but it'd be really backwards to make laws to tell me to wear a dress to free my penis, even if it has some merit because I'd still like to wear pants.

Totally the same thing as your pants and dress analogy

 

[ClosingADoor]

If by "cohesiveness" you mean "marginalizing or eliminating cultures that aren't German enough for you," then sure.

Trying to get rid of something sexist and oppressive used to keep women dependent on their husband is not eliminating a culture.

 

[pigeon]

Trying to get rid of something sexist and oppressive used to keep women dependent on their husband is not eliminating a culture.

Mandating what women are allowed to wear in the pursuit of making it hard for them to observe their minority religion seems like a pretty self-defeating way of fighting sexism and oppression.

 

[Madness]

There are people who voluntarily wear the niqab.

Only because they were culturally or religiously indoctrinated into doing so while growing up. The 'free choice' aspect really goes out the window when little girls grow up forced to wear the Niqab and then you say it is a symbol of pride and choice when they continue with it as adults. I am all for freedom of religion, but draconian things do not need to be imported from repressive states into freer ones.

My little cousin once told me he had a little muslim girl in his elementary class in Bothell WA USA. She wore a full niqab as a girl. And her father made the teacher force her to sit away from any boys in the class. When it comes time for games like Heads Down Thumbs Up she has to leave the class, she is not allowed to participate in PE and she was like 8 years old.

 

[1044]

The women forced to wear a burka (and yes, it's unarguably a symbol of oppression), aren't suddenly going to be free to wear what they so choose. They're going to be forced to be locked inside their homes.

Nothing is being fixed here.

It's probably easier to prosecute someone for forced imprisonment than to prosecute them for making you wear something you don't want to.

 

[Nezumi]

There are already situations in which covering your face, wearing a balaclava or a clown mask for example, is illegal and has been for decades (§17a VersG, §23 StVO). That ban simply wasn't enforced for Muslims. It's mostly about safety concerns and identification, and that is their business. I'm pretty sure there won't be a "burka ban" specifically, they'll simply apply the same rules that are already enforced for everybody else.

This.

 

[Xando]

If by "cohesiveness" you mean "marginalizing or eliminating cultures that aren't German enough for you," then sure

Not much of a culture if you are forced to hide your identity.

If i decide to wear a balaclava and go into public buildings i would be in trouble aswell

 

[JABEE]

Totally the same thing as your pants and dress analogy

Will banning this clothing eliminate the oppression of women in the religion of Islam? Will devout Muslims stop practicing this way?

Or will it prevent Muslim women from getting public services? I'm not sure how it works in Germany, but low-income people in the United States need as much access as possible to government buildings and administrative offices.

Will it appeal to German nationalists who like to see these immigrants assimilate or leave no matter the results of the law?

Which goal is being most served by this law?

 

[timetokill]

Are people allowed to walk around public places wearing ski-masks? Or other things covering your face from identification?

 

[Infinite]

If by "cohesiveness" you mean "marginalizing or eliminating cultures that aren't German enough for you," then sure.



This would be deeply unconstitutional in America. Also, frankly, if the Democrats need to pander to islamophobes to win elections then Muslims and people of color can't live safely in America.

If democrats pulled someone like this in America poc who are their most consistent voting block would just stay home

 

[Chumley]

Only because they were culturally or religiously indoctrinated into doing so while growing up. The 'free choice' aspect really goes out the window when little girls grow up forced to wear the Niqab and then you say it is a symbol of pride and choice when they continue with it as adults. I am all for freedom of religion, but draconian things do not need to be imported from repressive states into freer ones.

My little cousin once told me he had a little muslim girl in his elementary class in Bothell WA USA. She wore a full niqab as a girl. And her father made the teacher force her to sit away from any boys in the class. When it comes time for games like Heads Down Thumbs Up she has to leave the class, she is not allowed to participate in PE and she was like 8 years old.

Fucking heartbreaking.

 

[timetokill]

This would be deeply unconstitutional in America.

No, it wouldn't. Simply orient the law around forbidding covering the face in public places for safety reasons.

 

[anaron]

wtf at trying to equate something as vile and impractical/uncomfortable as the burqa is for a woman to wear to wearing a hat. come on

 

[ShironRedshift]

Good, we should not tolerate oppression of women, which I think the religious rules like these are.

While banning them might to some also feel like oppression, it is the lesser of two evils.

In no way is it the lesser of two evils. It accomplishes nothing in stopping oppression. Instead of being forced to wear it, they just won't be allowed outside at all. Nothing is actually fixed.

On the other hand, women who actually choose to wear this out of their own religious and cultural convictions have that right taken away from them and lose that ability to express themselves and their identities as they so choose. In addition, even if not the intent, it nonetheless empowers bigots who feel vindicated by laws such as these that "stick it to those dirty Muslim, terrorist freaks," making them feel justified in their stereotypes, discrimination, and hatred of Muslims and making them feel bolder to take it a step further and just keep pushing, which naturally has the result of Muslims feeling less safe and secure. Whether intentional or otherwise, those are the type of things that result from laws like this.

Meanwhile, they don't actually accomplish their actual intended goal of fighting against oppression in any meaningful way because like I said in the case of Muslim women who are oppressed and forced to wear it against their will, they'll just be kept inside all day instead which laws such as these do nothing to stop.

If you really want to help oppressed Muslim women, the solutions are quite similar to oppressed women in general and those stuck in abusive relationships. That is, supporting anonymous domestic abuse hotlines (with staff that don't just speak German or English but as many languages as possible), women's shelters, and not just supporting them but making sure these resources are as widespread and easily accessible as possible, as well as PSA efforts to make information about them as widespread and accessible and common-place as possible so that the women who need them can find out about them and access them as easily as possible without arousing suspicion.

That's the type of thing that actually can make a difference in the oppressive situations we're talking about here. Of course, unfortunately in many situations they're still unfortunately not enough, but they do make a difference and can help.

Not this though. "Feel good" measure at best that doesn't in any way solve the oppression that's supposedly the motivation of such laws because they just target symptoms instead of doing anything about the actual core problem (and of course are really just not-so-disguised Islamophobic measures at worst). Either way, entirely useless and not at all the way forward in dealing with the problems and instead just a way of trying to sweep things under the rug while in fact accomplishing nothing.

 

[SolarPowered]

It is refreshing seeing so many muslims in this thread straight up dumping on the Burka. The Hijab really is an understated and enduring piece of religious fashion and it is reasonable in that it doesn't obscure the face nearly in it's entirety the way the Burka does. The Burka just looks ridiculously backwards next to the Hijab. The former can die off and Saudi Arabia can cry into it's pillow.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Mandating what women are allowed to wear in the pursuit of making it hard for them to observe their minority religion seems like a pretty self-defeating way of fighting sexism and oppression.

Its not perfect of course, but I feel it is the better option. We should not be OK with women being oppressed by their religion and family and pressured into wearing these things.

Next to that it is a safety issue and prevents people from participating in normal society. The European Court ruled on this also for the French law earlier and was ok with it, and they do not make those decisions lightly.

 

[KingSnake]

Let's face it, at this point the Niqab/Burka is a symbol of the radical Islam. Unfortunately radicalised men are not forced to wear anything because they decide these things, so this will impact only women, but this is as much about banning a symbol as about safety concerns.

 

[His Majesty]

Will banning this clothing eliminate the oppression of women in the religion of Islam? Will devout Muslims stop practicing this way?

Or will it prevent Muslim women from getting public services? I'm not sure how it works in Germany, but low-income people in the United States need as much access as possible to government buildings and administrative offices.

Will it appeal to German nationalists who like to see these immigrants assimilate or leave no matter the results of the law?

Which goal is being most served by this law?

Succesful integration. I am glad that the burqa is a relatively rare sight in Europe and most women who wear it have a very difficult time integrating in society. Removing this barrier will make it easier for them, and especially for future generations, to mingle with people outside their radicalised religious circle.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Will banning this clothing eliminate the oppression of women in the religion of Islam? Will devout Muslims stop practicing this way?

Or will it prevent Muslim women from getting public services? I'm not sure how it works in Germany, but low-income people in the United States need as much access as possible to government buildings and administrative offices.

Will it appeal to German nationalists who like to see these immigrants assimilate or leave no matter the results of the law?

Which goal is being most served by this law?

Should people who migrate to Germany not respect the culture of that country? I think it is naïve to believe that only German nationalist extremists are the only ones who support this law, there is a reason it is popular and is growing in popularity throughout Europe

 

[John Kowalski]

There are people who voluntarily wear the niqab.

This does nothing to detract from its historical and symbolical meaning, and the women who wear them, though voluntarily and benignly they may do it, are nonetheless extending the values the niqab itself carries as a symbol of religious mistreatment of women.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Should people who migrate to Germany not respect the culture of that country? I think it is naïve to believe that only German nationalist extremists are the only ones who support this law, there is a reason it is popular and is growing in popularity throughout Europe

you're talking about national extremism here, right?

 

[Ayato Kanzaki]

I don't understand the logic of people that propose these types of legislations.

Imagine that your credit card is stolen, and there's a video of the robber using it, but she's wearing a burka, so the police investigation meet a dead-end. If clothes covering the face were banned, the outcome would be different.

The German law already forbid face coverings in public meetings (the law was created to fight a wave of hooliganism in the 80s). Since the law is the same for everyone and supercede religious concerns, banning burkas should be a non-issue.

What do they think is going to happen? These women are going to abandon their faith of their own volition and face no repercussions from their family or community?

Or are they going to just not go outside anymore?

So nothing should be done? Some women wear it be choice, but others wear it because they're pressured by their families and community. The nation has a duty to help them.

When you have something unfairly imposed to some people, the most ethical way to deal with it is to forbid it to everyone, as much as possible. And mentalities will change over time.
This is the logic some countries applied to smoking in public places. To protect those suffering from passive smoking, smoking in public was forbidden, the smokers grumbled that their liberty was infringed upon, and it is still a net positive on the long term.


Some women will be forbidden to go out if the burka is banned. But it won't be all of them, and of those who are, a lot will leave their intolerant family, or call the cops, and as long as the state is firm about enforcing rights and issuing prison sentences, the religious extremism will decrease over time. It won't be without pain, or even a few tragedies, but the long-term effects of having a religion challenge the secular power of a nation is worse.




This remind me of Reddit and what's happening with the T_D subreddit. The mods tried to keep their eyes closed and tolerate intolerant fanatics, hoping the problem would go away if they avoided hurting thier sensibilities. But, as reality proved, the problem didn't go away, it grew and grew until getting out of control. That's the thing about fanatism, it is never satisfied...

 

[Lamel]

I don't like burqas. I'm all for choice and all but covering the face isn't really fitting with modern society. Hijab is fine.

The good part is very few women actually wear them. And IIRC it's not actually required.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

you're talking about national extremism here, right?

No, I was pointing out that there is growing support behind such a ban, and it is not just the nationalist extremist right who support this

 

[Glass Rebel]

No, I was pointing out that there is a growing support behind such a ban, and it is not just the nationalist extremist right who support this

it was a rhetorical question

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

Agreed with this.

My wife finds it absolutely hypocritical and offensive that a man can wear shorts, flip-flops, and tight tank, while his wife behind him is carrying a 4 year old in 90-degree weather, covered completely head to toe in a dark garment.

It is absolutely oppressive.

Actually (At least in Saudi Arabia) men can't wear tank tops and shorts to public places, like malls, government offices (A man has to wear what the government deems as official garb), school or work.

One time I wasn't allowed on a plane on Saudi Airlines, because I was wearing shorts. I was forced to change, or I wouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

I wholly disagree with a ban on the veil, because it's a bunch non-muslim government officials telling what muslim women should or shouldn't do. You don't fix the problem of oppression by banning the veil, but by education and enculturation.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Cheep vote getting tactic

 

[Takuan]

I get it, but won't this just piss off a particularly fundamentalist group of Muslims who who live in Germany?

 

[Somnid]

Totally the same thing as your pants and dress analogy

True, the setup is the same but the difference is thus: if my parents smacked me across the face for not wearing pants we probably wouldn't ban pants because that's like a really nonsensical thing to do.

 

[His Majesty]

you're talking about national extremism here, right?

I have only data from the UK and Germany but I wouldn't be surprised if most European countries supported a burqa ban. France and Belgium already have it in place.

And no, this is not because Europe is some fortress of 'national extremism', it's because Europe has an actual problem of radical Islam as opposed to the US.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Pretty disappointing to see Germany moving in the same direction as the other big Western countries. I couldn't find any statements from the SPD about this when I looked, hopefully they can do better in the coming election.

Not a huge fan of this either but... Practically it's probably for the best. If Merkel says this relatively minor (at least, in comparision to complete blocking of Islamic followers from entering the country) thing, she might stand a chance if getting reelected. Otherwise the end result will be the same as the horrible trend developing elsewhere, someone far worse would win the upcoming German election.

The world sucks right now.

 

[Shredderi]

Isn't this more about security and stuff and about not allowing anyone to conceal their identity in public? Doesn't this apply to everyone as a default? If that is the case then there should be no exemptions because of religion. Am I totally off base here?

 

[Lois_Lane]

If you think about it, every nation on earth controls your dress. "Public indecency".

Doesn't automatically make the full veil ban okay.. just saying that the state is already in the business of dress codes.

Yes but most free ones are super loose and rightly so. Banning the niqab is to me a step too far.

 

[Htown]

this thread is about what I expected

the government of a country should not be in the habit of legislating what is acceptable religious dress or not

banning someone's clothing specifically because it is of a certain set of religious beliefs is some dictatorial bullshit

but who cares, they're just muslims, right?

 

[Chumley]

True, the setup is the same but the difference is thus: if my parents smacked me across the face for not wearing pants we probably wouldn't ban pants because that's like a really nonsensical thing to do.

Oh my god. The consequences for not wearing a niqab are so much worse. You're being intentionally obtuse at this point.

 

[pigeon]

I mean, I'm genuinely shocked by this thread. Freedom of religion really is dying in the west. Islamophobia is the order of the day. It's Trump's world now.

If you want people to stop wearing burkas, you should try to provide clear examples of the superiority of secular or moderate Islam or of other belief systems, and provide strong support systems for women who are afraid they will face backlash or lose support for choosing to abandon their religion, so that they have the freedom to do so. You should combine this with toleration of those who choose to continue to wear burkas or otherwise practice their religion, so that they cannot use examples of their repression to radicalize more moderate Muslims by showing that the west will not allow them to live in peace.

Once upon a time, that used to be how the marketplace of ideas worked! We used to be confident in our ability to accept people of all creeds and allow cosmopolitanism to bring them together and teach them to abandon their more reactionary positions. It seems that those days have ended, at least in Europe.

I guess freedom was nice while it lasted.

 

[Lois_Lane]

You think everyone who wears a burka has a choice?

You think those who don't have a choice are going to benefit from this? more than likely their families will just trap them inside the house to avoid 'shame'.

 

[Takuan]

Isn't this more about security and stuff and about not allowing anyone to conceal their identity in public? Doesn't this apply to everyone as a default? If that is the case then there should be no exemptions because of religion. Am I totally off base here?

Nah, I can see it from that angle, as well.

You think those who don't have a choice are going to benefit from this? more than likely their families will just trap them inside the house to avoid 'shame'.

Absolutely. It only hurts those women and angers the men who control them.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

banning someone's clothing specifically because it is of a certain set of religious beliefs is some dictatorial bullshit

Religious beliefs doesn't equal free reign to do whatever you please

 

[pigeon]

I get it, but won't this just piss off a particularly fundamentalist group of Muslims who who live in Germany?

Pissing those Muslims off is the goal, because that's what the people of Germany want, apparently -- for them to give up their religious practices or leave Germany.

 

[Kinyou]

Some are calling for a law making it a regulatory offense for women to cover their faces in courtrooms, administrative buildings and schools, as well as while driving or attending demonstrations.

Those two make kind of sense since. afaik is covering your face with something else in those instances not allowed either.
In government institutions should imo the officials not show any kind of religious symbolism, so if it should only apply to the ones working there I'd be fine with it as well

 

[ClosingADoor]

I mean, I'm genuinely shocked by this thread. Freedom of religion really is dying in the west. Islamophobia is the order of the day. It's Trump's world now.

If you want people to stop wearing burkas, you should try to provide clear examples of the superiority of secular or moderate Islam or of other belief systems, and provide strong support systems for women who are afraid they will face backlash or lose support for choosing to abandon their religion, so that they have the freedom to do so. You should combine this with toleration of those who choose to continue to wear burkas or otherwise practice their religion, so that they cannot use examples of their repression to radicalize more moderate Muslims by showing that the west will not allow them to live in peace.

Once upon a time, that used to be how the marketplace of ideas worked! We used to be confident in our ability to accept people of all creeds and allow cosmopolitanism to bring them together and teach them to abandon their more reactionary positions. It seems that those days have ended, at least in Europe.

I guess freedom was nice while it lasted.

I am genuinely shocked by how much people wave away extremist, oppressive and intolerant things because they see it as freedom of religion.

 

[Htown]

Religious beliefs doesn't equal free reign to do whatever you please

we're talking about clothing, not human sacrifice