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[Men_in_Boxes]

All 4 Spies vs Mercs fans on NeoGAF assseeemmmbllleeee!!

Warren Spector says the next logical step for immersive sims is multiplayer

The Deus Ex director is still taking inspiration from tabletop with Otherside Entertainment's Thick as Thieves.

www.gamedeveloper.com

"This thinking also applies to the player-versus-player end of the game as well. "We'd like to give players agency to approach other humans in different ways," he said. He explained that players aren't necessarily "opposed" to each other. They have space to avoid each other, they can stalk each other, knock them out, and take their things—but they can also cooperate in the moment and choose to betray or not betray them later."

 

[SJRB]

PvP

 

[Kuranghi]

I love singleplayer games, I don't want other humans stinking up my games. I want to walk around and appreciate things not be in a environment of pressure and uhhhh uhhhh do this do this, its fighting time, eeeeuhhhhhhh can't stop to look at anything! Fuck off.

I love playing singleplayer games with a friend in the room, passing the controller, or them just watching. Thats the only multiplayer I'm into and I think it will be that way til the day I leave this orb.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I love singleplayer games, I don't want other humans stinking up my games. I want to walk around and appreciate things not be in a environment of pressure and uhhhh uhhhh do this do this, its fighting time, eeeeuhhhhhhh can't stop to look at anything! Fuck off.

He literally addresses this very sentiment in the quote above.

"Approach other humans in different ways..."

 

[Danjin44]

I dont play games to socialize with people, I do plenty of that with friends and coworkers.

I play games enjoy my hobby alone and in peace.

 

[ungalo]

Warren keeps trying, you can't take that from him.

 

[IDKFA]

I was interested because Warren Spector is involved, but the game description in the OP sounds incredibly bland.

 

[Chuck Berry]

Warren Spector making a PvP....

...what's next? Roberta Williams making an FPS?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Warren keeps trying, you can't take that from him.

I'm going to say something profound so sit down and buckle up.

The reason why immersive sims haven't caught on is because the choices they provide aren't connected to player reward.

You can talk to an NPC for 2 minutes or you can throw a rock through a window and jump in. It never matters in immersive sims because both avenues put you in the same spot and the lack of risk / consequence makes both actions incredibly boring.

PvP has the potential to fix the core problem in the genre. Speed, efficiency, and success now matter because you're competing against actual human intelligence.

It's no longer Chess where you auto rewind as soon as you make a bad move. It's Chess as it's meant to be played.

Warren Spector is right. This IS the natural progression.

 

[mitch1971]

I'm going to say something profound so sit down and buckle up.

 

[The Cockatrice]

No one likes you OP and your shitty gaming tastes.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

Nah, PvPvE stuff is just not for me. I want to put myself in a multiplayer situation, not be forced into it whilst I'm doing my thing in single player. Just give me a new Splinter Cell game with the multiplayer modes.

 

[ZehDon]

I'll always pay attention to a Warren Spector project. Kinda curious to see his approach to multiplayer play out.

 

[clarky]

Dude hasn't made anything decent in a very long time.

 

[Mozzarella]

Great director, but i disagree with his current vision, multiplayer immersive sim seems like a bad idea.

 

[xrnzaaas]

More like 'immersive sims won't get any funding unless they're multiplayer'.

I'd rather replay my favorite old immersive sims for the 451st time than play with other people.

 

[WitchHunter]

Someone should give bodily harm to Warren Spector .

 

[Griffon]

I would've hoped that the Epic Mickey debacle would have taught him to keep to the genres he knows best, and to stop doing weird failed experiments.

 

[hyperbertha]

I'm going to say something profound so sit down and buckle up.

The reason why immersive sims haven't caught on is because the choices they provide aren't connected to player reward.

You can talk to an NPC for 2 minutes or you can throw a rock through a window and jump in. It never matters in immersive sims because both avenues put you in the same spot and the lack of risk / consequence makes both actions incredibly boring.

PvP has the potential to fix the core problem in the genre. Speed, efficiency, and success now matter because you're competing against actual human intelligence.

It's no longer Chess where you auto rewind as soon as you make a bad move. It's Chess as it's meant to be played.

Warren Spector is right. This IS the natural progression.

I don't think you understand immsims at all. Many rewards are rewards for exploration. Any problems human intelligence can solve are already solved by ai npcs.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don't think you understand immsims at all.

I don't think you understand games as a medium at all...is what I would say if I didn't have so much class.

Many rewards are rewards for exploration.

Exploration doesn't evaporate with the existence of other humans. In fact, the existence of other humans bolsters the thrill and magic of exploration. It's purely additive.

Any problems human intelligence can solve are already solved by ai npcs.

Then why are AI bots so dumb, predictable, underpowered, with laughable eyesight in every immersive sim in existence? AI has a loooooong way to go before it can replicate human behavior.

 

[poppabk]

They have space to avoid each other, they can stalk each other, knock them out, and take their things—but they can also cooperate in the moment and choose to betray or not betray them later."

The problem with this is that in online gaming people will always choose to be dicks to strangers. You give players agency to impact someone else's game and 9 times out of 10 the impact will be negative.

 

[TheKratos]

Got lured by THICK but all I got is people just coming in to shit on the game and cry about MP even though there are plenty SP games out there.

 

[bender]

Then why are AI bots so dumb, predictable, underpowered, with laughable eyesight in every immersive sim in existence? AI has a loooooong way to go before it can replicate human behavior.

Those are intentional design decisions and have very little to do with limitations of AI.

 

[hyperbertha]

I don't think you understand games as a medium at all...is what I would say if I didn't have so much class.


Exploration doesn't evaporate with the existence of other humans. In fact, the existence of other humans bolsters the thrill and magic of exploration. It's purely additive.


Then why are AI bots so dumb, predictable, underpowered, with laughable eyesight in every immersive sim in existence? AI has a loooooong way to go before it can replicate human behavior.

I bet you won't last two minutes on the hardest difficulty in most games. Ai bots have always engaged the player. This is how single player games have always worked. To say they are dumb is trying to push an agenda. Exploration cannot work in a multiplayer game to the same extent a tailored single player map can.

Multiplayer is in most ways inferior to singplayer. This is a fact.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

PAUL! I........... I..........

I thought you were a GEP gun!

 

[xrnzaaas]

The problem with this is that in online gaming people will always choose to be dicks to strangers. You give players agency to impact someone else's game and 9 times out of 10 the impact will be negative.

That's a valid point. Random players are usually assholes in online games, even if it's a non-violent chill game like Journey. You NEED to have friend(s), because playing with randoms is russian roulette with 5 out of 6 live rounds.

 

[Puscifer]

Remember when he was making System Shock 3? Peppridge Farms remembers.

 

[Wildebeest]

Game designers, managers and marketing people can't come up with games like immersive sims. You need real nerds in control. Not nerds like, I've seen Star Wars 1000 times and don't wash, but nerds like I read scientific papers for fun.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The problem with this is that in online gaming people will always choose to be dicks to strangers. You give players agency to impact someone else's game and 9 times out of 10 the impact will be negative.

Wait, aren't AI guards trying to be "dicks" to the player? I mean, they're always trying to stab & shoot me when they see me. Only they're dumb as bricks, follow crude walking paths, all suffer from 30 second dementia and are legally blind so navigating them is generally a bore. Very un immersive if you ask me.

I bet you won't last two minutes on the hardest difficulty in most games.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

Remember when he was making System Shock 3? Peppridge Farms remembers.

He also worked on Underworld Ascendant, which is a total turd.

I love Spector, he's a legend, but his recent output has been...not great.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Then why are AI bots so dumb, predictable, underpowered, with laughable eyesight in every immersive sim in existence? AI has a loooooong way to go before it can replicate human behavior.

The best AI is the AI that the player can predict based on observation and experimentation. It's what makes up the rules of the game.

Put the player against an AI that adapts, evolves and does different stuff everytime you play the game and you'll get players screaming "bullshit" at the screen.

 

[hyperbertha]

Wait, aren't AI guards trying to be "dicks" to the player? I mean, they're always trying to stab & shoot me when they see me. Only they're dumb as bricks, follow crude walking paths, all suffer from 30 second dementia and are legally blind so navigating them is generally a bore. Very un immersive if you ask me.

Ah you have no point to make. Ok dumbass

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The best AI is the AI that the player can predict based on observation and experimentation. It's what makes up the rules of the game.

That can be applied to poor AI, "good" AI, as well as opposing players.

Observation, prediction, and experimentation are practices you use in conflict, period. It has nothing to do with whether your opponent is man or machine.

Put the player against an AI that adapts, evolves and does different stuff everytime you play the game and you'll get players screaming "bullshit" at the screen.

One of the cornerstones of bad writing is when characters don't act in their self interests. Unnatural, unintelligent responses pull the viewer out of the experience. That's the problem this genre suffers from.

Look at it this way. The immersive sim is a genre that has recieved a number of big budget attempts throughout the years and have generally failed to thrive commercially.

It's very possible that it's a cookie missing the flour (multiplayer) in order to realize it's true potential. Hell, Warren Spector kind of alludes to as much.

 

[RagnarokIV]

PVP? It's a no for me.

Hopefully he won't destroy his legacy with this trash.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

Thick As Thieves is a stealth action multiplayer game, unlike anything we've seen before. We sat down with Michael Fitch, director of product for OtherSide Entertainment, so discuss how they're bringing in a genre like stealth into a competitive multiplayer experience.

0:00 – Introducing Michael Fitch and "Thick as Thieves"
0:17 – The Unique Blend of Competitive Stealth and Immersive Sim Gameplay
1:44 – The Dynamic of Player vs. Player vs. Environment (PVPVE)
2:50 – Different Paths to Victory in "Thick as Thieves"
3:50 – "Thick as Thieves" as a "Looter Stealer" Not a Looter Shooter
4:29 – Design Philosophy Player Skill Over RPG Gear
5:04 – Environmental Storytelling and Randomization
6:20 – The Importance of Improvisation and Player Interaction
7:00 – Manipulating Other Players and the Environment
8:39 – The Evolution of Immersive Sims in Gaming
10:47 – Marketing "Thick as Thieves" to a Broader Audience
11:37 – Observing Player Behavior in Multiplayer Stealth
13:27 – Game Status (Pre-Alpha) and How to Get Involved
13:52 – Initial Impressions and Unique Gameplay Elements
14:30 – The Mystery of the Cheese Wheel