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[RetroGamingUK]

For 1998 hardware theres some unbelievably good looking games.

My top 10 based purely on graphics

1. Dead or Alive 2
2. Ferrari F355 Challenge
3. Sonic Adventure 2
4. Virtua Striker 2
5. Shenmue
6. Resident Evil: Code Veronica
7. Soul Calibur
8. Ecco the Dolphin
9. Metropolis Street Racer
10. Jet Set Radio

 

[PaintTinJr]

PS2 2001 holliday lineup alone is that infamous image that people keep trotting back to prove how much better it was than every consecutive console to date, so yea - you'd have to be pretending most of the library didn't exist to claim there was only 'a few' exceptions in that time-frame.
And. to add to above - we also got BG: DA, SSX/SSX:T, Splashdown, Jak1, Bouncer, ICO, AC4 and many more during the same period (and this is just listing software that was technically interesting in some way).

It's also the period where we finally started moving from 'clearly early PS2 title' (like FFX) to 'ok PS2 can do interesting things not seen before' (like BG: DA or Jak). Though even in the former bracket - I still think Bouncer was doing more with the hw than FFX did despite launching a year early - but I digress.

Bomberman Kart was also a 2001/2002 game with 4 player splitscreen lots of fill-rate heavy fx IIRC, I have my doubts such generalised camera work with that gameplay was possible on Dreamcast without methods to fake the generalized camera work into partial pre-calculated workloads for 4 player split..

 

[simpatico]

Losing baked lighting hurts. Real GI lighting can never look as good because it has no mind for aesthetics. Devs just think they don't have to work on lighting because GI will handle it.

Proper baked lighting will take GI into account, but can override where it is needed to make a scene look a certain way

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

For 1998 hardware theres some unbelievably good looking games.

My top 10 based purely on graphics

1. Dead or Alive 2
2. Ferrari F355 Challenge
3. Sonic Adventure 2
4. Virtua Striker 2
5. Shenmue
6. Resident Evil: Code Veronica
7. Soul Calibur
8. Ecco the Dolphin
9. Metropolis Street Racer
10. Jet Set Radio

My visuals top 10:

1. Shenmue 2.
2. Dead or Alive 2 LE
3. Test Drive Le Mans.
4. Ferrari F355, specially with the rear view camera mod.
5. Headhunter.
6. Ikaruga
7. Virtua Tennis 2
8. Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs Zeon.
9. Ecco the Dolphin.
10. Hokuto No Ken (Atomiswave). For me, its the best looking 2D game i've ever seen on DC.

Not sure where to put GTA 3...But also would be fair to put it when Beta build or some sort of final version gets done and released.

 

[Alan Wake]

1. Shenmue II
2. Soul Calibur
3. Sonic Adventure 2
4. Metropolis Street Racer
5. Headhunter
6. Resident Evil: Code Veronica
7. Phantasy Star Online
8. Jet Set Radio
9. Ferrari F355 Challenge
10. Virtua Tennis 2

 

[cireza]

As to doability of DMC 1 for Dreamcast without very significant concessions, i doubt it pretty strongly. The game relied quite extensively on PS2's hardware strengths like its crazy high bandwidth/fill rate to achieve all kinds of lighting/transparency effects in a quite dense environment with high geometry and texture detail, that's not a good fit for Dreamcast hardware. I think DMC 1's technical achievements is a bit underappreciated these days, to me it's a better looking game than both of its sequels on PS2, 'cleaner' and more consistent looking than DMC 3 at least.

That's the point of having different hardware : you adapt your game to the strengths of said hardware. If DMC was ported to Dreamcast, it would maybe lose something... and probably gain something else. People are obsessed over the idea that DIFFERENT hardware should run the EXACT SAME games. This is stupid.

Look at your hardware, what are its strengths, develop your game engine and visuals in consequence.

 

[KimDongHwan]

Guys sorry not derailing the conversation, but is funny to me that this thread keeps popping up every month or so, discussing performance of the Dreamcast on 2025, that's what neogaf is all about

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I can't believe how well Dead or Alive 2 has aged, it looks absolutely gorgeous on my OLED via Kaico HDMi

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Guys sorry not derailing the conversation, but is funny to me that this thread keeps popping up every month or so, discussing performance of the Dreamcast on 2025, that's what neogaf is all about

You said it bro, that's what NeoGaf is all about. Also, its because DC 25 yrs after is still receiving games that defy its limitations, so..

 

[HoodWinked]

someone necro'd this thread but something did come to mind as I saw this thread appear, Dreamcast probably also had the two edge sword of having mature hardware, some studios were already familiar with Naomi hardware so with the Dreamcast some devs were already pushing it pretty hard. But the downside to that is there isn't much more head room for improvement.

This actually can be seen in the year1 games like Soul Calibur and Sonic Adventure, they looked incredible for the time but by the end of the Dreamcast's lifespan the fidelity wasn't that much greater in late cycle games.

 

[MrCunningham]

Alpha port version of an unfinished decompiled project, made with homebrew tools running on hardware from 1998, yes it was powerful at launch.

Wow. The home brew devs are really figuring out how the Dreamcast hardware actually works. There are far less sorting issues with transparencies, the lighting actually looks really impressive.

 

[Esppiral]

More progress

 

[RoboFu]

Wow. The home brew devs are really figuring out how the Dreamcast hardware actually works. There are far less sorting issues with transparencies, the lighting actually looks really impressive.

I think this one isn't even the best way to do it. from what I understand it's just using the windows ce compatibility .

 

[Esppiral]

I think this one isn't even the best way to do it. from what I understand it's just using the windows ce compatibility .

No, it is using kallistiOS a community created hombrew SDK.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

someone necro'd this thread but something did come to mind as I saw this thread appear, Dreamcast probably also had the two edge sword of having mature hardware, some studios were already familiar with Naomi hardware so with the Dreamcast some devs were already pushing it pretty hard. But the downside to that is there isn't much more head room for improvement.

This actually can be seen in the year1 games like Soul Calibur and Sonic Adventure, they looked incredible for the time but by the end of the Dreamcast's lifespan the fidelity wasn't that much greater in late cycle games.

Have you compared Sonic Adventure 1 vs 2? Soul Calibur vs DOA 2? Have you seen Shenmue 2 or Headhunter? Are you watching this GTA 3 and VC alphas?

 

[MrCunningham]

I think this one isn't even the best way to do it. from what I understand it's just using the windows ce compatibility .

That would be extra impressive if true. I guess there was a WindowsCE development kit that leaked to the public quite a while back. I know it exists.

 

[MrCunningham]

That would be extra impressive if true. I guess there was a WindowsCE development kit that leaked to the public quite a while back. I know it exists.

Here it is, right here: Windows CE Toolkit 1.1. This was released to the public back in February 2024. I should download it and try running it on one of my old Windows 98se/ ME machines. :

 

[Esppiral]

Release of Beta versions of Vice City and GTA3 are now out!

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

 

[dFRxCThqrOZ]

At the time - no other console even came close graphically.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

Soul Calibur on a CRT television is a thing of beauty. This was a great leap ahead of PlayStation and Nintendo 64, still looks stunning. I don't know why Namco went to all the trouble of making this videogame so great, but I'm glad they did.

Augh, now I really wish I had a Dreamcast right now. Curse my recurring bouts of Adult-itis. It's a terrible disease.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

Test Drive Le Mans running on real hardware w/VGA. Holy mackeral, this looks amazing. It looks great for today. This is commonly seen as the commercial Dreamcast title that pushed the hardware the furthest, with lighting & environmental effects ablaze while maintaining a rock-solid 30 frames-per-second performance. The 4-player split-screen is the icing on the cake, and once again, I find myself wondering why we can't have that feature in today's online world. Definitely one of my Dreamcast favorites.

 

[Lysandros]

Test Drive Le Mans running on real hardware w/VGA. Holy mackeral, this looks amazing. It looks great for today. This is commonly seen as the commercial Dreamcast title that pushed the hardware the furthest, with lighting & environmental effects ablaze while maintaining a rock-solid 30 frames-per-second performance. The 4-player split-screen is the icing on the cake, and once again, I find myself wondering why we can't have that feature in today's online world. Definitely one of my Dreamcast favorites.

Yeah, looks nice. Those are very talented developers. The same team who made the 60 FPS version on PS2 and also Grand Prix Challenge (maybe the most technically impressive racing game of the generation) and Transformers.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

I recently got a Dreamcast and modded it with a MODE and it's been a great time rediscovering and enjoying these games again. I've got it hooked up to a CRT via S-Video and there is a certain crispness and clean look to so many of its games. It's really great.

Soul Calibur on a CRT television is a thing of beauty. This was a great leap ahead of PlayStation and Nintendo 64, still looks stunning. I don't know why Namco went to all the trouble of making this videogame so great, but I'm glad they did.

Augh, now I really wish I had a Dreamcast right now. Curse my recurring bouts of Adult-itis. It's a terrible disease.

Yeah, that and Sonic Adventure were the first games I got with my Dreamcast and it was just incredible for the time coming from PS1 and N64, and even compared to the PC games my friends and I played at the time.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Yeah, looks nice. Those are very talented developers. The same team who made the 60 FPS version on PS2 and also Grand Prix Challenge (maybe the most technically impressive racing game of the generation) and Transformers.

Not sure in which thread was, but one of Melbourne House devs was around here on Neo GAF, and stated also GPC could had run on DC. Probably 30 fps and with cutbacks, but DC would had handled what you call the most technically impressive 6th gen racer.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

Here's Ferrari F355 Challenge to show off what Sega Dreamcast could do. I always thought it was the best looking videogame for the console, although Test Drive Le Mans has all those amazing lighting and weather effects. Those crisp VGA/60fps visuals are still amazing and haven't aged a day.

Too bad the person who recorded this video turned off the butt-rock music. That's one of the best things about this game!

 

[Team Andromeda]

Here's Ferrari F355 Challenge to show off what Sega Dreamcast could do. I always thought it was the best looking videogame for the console, although Test Drive Le Mans has all those amazing lighting and weather effects. Those crisp VGA/60fps visuals are still amazing and haven't aged a day.

Too bad the person who recorded this video turned off the butt-rock music. That's one of the best things about this game!

The music was one of the best parts of the game It was like Sammy Hagar did the music and singing to that game, even though he didn't. The game looked and ran amazing too You're so right.... to this day the game features the best looking sky boxes to any game.

 

[nkarafo]

I would really love to see how the DC could fare with Outrun 2/2006. Since this game was ported almost everywhere, it could be a good candidate for a port.

The PS2 official port looks great, not too many noticeable downgrades compared to the original arcade or XBOX port.

I'm also wondering if Outrun 2 is technically more advanced than Daytona 2. It looks that way in some instances but i'm not sure. But i would also love to see how the DC would fare with Daytona 2.

 

[Esppiral]

 

[MrCunningham]

I would really love to see how the DC could fare with Outrun 2/2006. Since this game was ported almost everywhere, it could be a good candidate for a port.

The PS2 official port looks great, not too many noticeable downgrades compared to the original arcade or XBOX port.

I'm also wondering if Outrun 2 is technically more advanced than Daytona 2. It looks that way in some instances but i'm not sure. But i would also love to see how the DC would fare with Daytona 2.

Daytona USA 2 and Power Edition use the Model 3 step 2.1 hardware, which is the most advance version of the Model 3 arcade board. It has a 166MHz PPC CPU and twin Lockheed Martin GPU's. It would honestly be a tough game to port over to the Dreamcast without some heavy modifications. But I think the Dreamcast could do a decent version of the game, if done right, but it would be far from arcade perfect.

This is a really good direct capture from the arcade board of Power Edition. It looks crazy for a 1998 release. I think the PS2 would even struggle to do an arcade perfect port.



Here's Daytona 2001 on the Dreamcast (I think this is real hardware, using VGA). It runs at 60fps, had virtually no pop-in and displays at 480p with VGA. This port was done by Genki. Who also did the VF3: TB port on the Dreamcast as well as the Tokyo Xtreme Racer games. It technically looks pretty good overall. But not comparable to Daytona USA 2.



Outrun 2 uses the Sega Chihiro arcade hardware, which is essentially a souped up Xbox with 512MB's of system RAM instead of the 64MB found in the original Xbox and has two Xbox GeForce 3 class GPU's. It uses Sega's proprietary GD-ROM drive instead of a DVD drive. On paper it is better than the Model 3 step 2.1 board in just about every way. Doing an arcade perfect port of OutRun 2 is out of the question for the Dreamcast. It was a tight fit on the Xbox, but achievable. Maybe a scaled down version that is found on the PSP is doable?

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Esppiral the wizard!!
How much polys has those GTA IV, V and Bayonetta models?

Daytona USA 2 and Power Edition use the Model 3 step 2.1 hardware, which is the most advance version of the Model 3 arcade board. It has a 166MHz PPC CPU and twin Lockheed Martin GPU's. It would honestly be a tough game to port over to the Dreamcast without some heavy modifications. But I think the Dreamcast could do a decent version of the game, if done right, but it would be far from arcade perfect.

This is a really good direct capture from the arcade board of Power Edition. It looks crazy for a 1998 release. I think the PS2 would even struggle to do an arcade perfect port.



Here's Daytona 2001 on the Dreamcast (I think this is real hardware, using VGA). It runs at 60fps, had virtually no pop-in and displays at 480p with VGA. This port was done by Genki. Who also did the VF3: TB port on the Dreamcast as well as the Tokyo Xtreme Racer games. It technically looks pretty good overall. But not comparable to Daytona USA 2.



Outrun 2 uses the Sega Chihiro arcade hardware, which is essentially a souped up Xbox with 512MB's of system RAM instead of the 64MB found in the original Xbox and has two Xbox GeForce 3 class GPU's. It uses Sega's proprietary GD-ROM drive instead of a DVD drive. On paper it is better than the Model 3 step 2.1 board in just about every way. Doing an arcade perfect port of OutRun 2 is out of the question for the Dreamcast. It was a tight fit on the Xbox, but achievable. Maybe a scaled down version that is found on the PSP is doable?

But if you put those videos side to side, yes Daytona 2 looks better, has more detailed stages, and some better details on the car, specially the rear window speculars...But it´s no like a gen leap, they look similar. In fact, Daytona 2001 looks way good, precisely for a Dec 2000/early 2001 console game. I mean, on DC and even PS2 (on that timeframe) few racers were visually more impressive....TD Le Mans, but this one runs at 30 fps...Ferrari, but this one has less cars, Ridge Racer V...

And about Outrun 2, yes, just the PSP version would be doable....

 

[MrCunningham]

Esppiral the wizard!!
How much polys has those GTA IV, V and Bayonetta models?


But if you put those videos side to side, yes Daytona 2 looks better, has more detailed stages, and some better details on the car, specially the rear window speculars...But it´s no like a gen leap, they look similar. In fact, Daytona 2001 looks way good, precisely for a Dec 2000/early 2001 console game. I mean, on DC and even PS2 (on that timeframe) few racers were visually more impressive....TD Le Mans, but this one runs at 30 fps...Ferrari, but this one has less cars, Ridge Racer V...

And about Outrun 2, yes, just the PSP version would be doable....

Test Drive Le Mans for the Dreamcast is still an impressive looking racing game for the system, even if it only runs at 30fps. I do think Daytona USA 2001 looks pretty good overall. But it is not displaying as many polygons as the Model 3 Daytona 2 on screen.

One of the earliest games announced for the Sega Dreamcast was Scud Race/ Sega GT, which is also a Model 3 step 2 arcade game. There were screenshots shown from a build running off of a Dreamcast dev kit. But the game never materialized. There has been builds of that version found on Dreamcast dev kits, and it does have a one stage demo map. But the map has a lot more pop-in and doesn't seem to run at 60fps. Not a bad showcase for the Dreamcast. But it seems like the Dreamcast can't put out the same number of polygons as the later Model 3 boards.



Sega Rally 2 is a special case where it was running on Windows CE and suffered from performance issues because of it. For some reason, none of the Model 3 Dreamcast ports ever looked as good as their arcade counterparts.

 

[nkarafo]

One of the earliest games announced for the Sega Dreamcast was Scud Race/ Sega GT, which is also a Model 3 step 2 arcade game.

Scud Race was an early Model 3 game too so it's not running on a later version of the hardware.

According to Sega Retro it's a step 1.5 game.

Step 2.0 was also a more substantial upgrade to 1.5 compared to the difference between 1.0 and 1.5. Making Daytona USA 2 an even more demanding game for the DC to port.

For some reason, none of the Model 3 Dreamcast ports ever looked as good as their arcade counterparts.

Truth be told, the Model hardware (even the early steps) was state of the art, non-retail custom hardware that would cost tens of thousands.

The Dreamcast was a very powerful home hardware but you wouldn't expect the same amount of power from cheap retail parts that were released only a couple of years later.

IMO, most of the Dreamcast's best visual achievements don't come from it's raw power but rather it's more modern features and more modern/more advanced software and game dev tools.

It's like comparing a very powerful, very expensive but older high end graphics card with a newer lower end card. The old card is more powerful but it may lack features while the newer, cheaper card supports a newer version of DX/Vulkan/OpenGL. Like in the mid 00's where DX8 cards couldn't show some fancy water and reflection effects (no matter how powerful they were) but even the cheapest, lowest end DX9 cards could (at lower resolutions/frame rates ofc).

Ofc, software advancements are very important too. Newer software tools and more experienced devs can work wonders. IMO this is why VS fighting games tend to look better on DC despite being weaker. Because devs figured out how to make and optimize human models later on. For instance, in Virtua Fighter 3 the models are made the old way, with all the limb joints connecting obvious separated 3D objects while in Soul Calibur the limbs look more like one proper shape. This alone makes a big difference visually and makes human models look better by default. But it's not a hardware depended feature, this is 100% a software advancement/dev experience improvement.

But other major arcade genres like racing games don't really benefit as much from such advancements. A static car model and the backgrounds around the track are not as complex and animation intensive as human models are. You can just throw as many polygons and little details as you can on them to make them look as impressive as possible. This is where Model 3's raw power excels over Naomi/DC and that's why all Model 3 racing games still look more impressive despiter being older.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Scud Race was an early Model 3 game too so it's not running on a later version of the hardware.

According to Sega Retro it's a step 1.5 game.

Step 2.0 was also a more substantial upgrade to 1.5 compared to the difference between 1.0 and 1.5. Making Daytona USA 2 an even more demanding game for the DC to port.


Truth be told, the Model hardware (even the early steps) was state of the art, non-retail custom hardware that would cost tens of thousands.

The Dreamcast was a very powerful home hardware but you wouldn't expect the same amount of power from cheap retail parts that were released only a couple of years later.

IMO, most of the Dreamcast's best visual achievements don't come from it's raw power but rather it's more modern features and more modern/more advanced software and game dev tools.

It's like comparing a very powerful, very expensive but older high end graphics card with a newer lower end card. The old card is more powerful but it may lack features while the newer, cheaper card supports a newer version of DX/Vulkan/OpenGL. Like in the mid 00's where DX8 cards couldn't show some fancy water and reflection effects (no matter how powerful they were) but even the cheapest, lowest end DX9 cards could (at lower resolutions/frame rates ofc).

Ofc, software advancements are very important too. Newer software tools and more experienced devs can work wonders. IMO this is why VS fighting games tend to look better on DC despite being weaker. Because devs figured out how to make and optimize human models later on. For instance, in Virtua Fighter 3 the models are made the old way, with all the limb joints connecting obvious separated 3D objects while in Soul Calibur the limbs look more like one proper shape. This alone makes a big difference visually and makes human models look better by default. But it's not a hardware depended feature, this is 100% a software advancement/dev experience improvement.

But other major arcade genres like racing games don't really benefit as much from such advancements. A static car model and the backgrounds around the track are not as complex and animation intensive as human models are. You can just throw as many polygons and little details as you can on them to make them look as impressive as possible. This is where Model 3's raw power excels over Naomi/DC and that's why all Model 3 racing games still look more impressive despiter being older.

Virtual On 2: Oratorio Tangram was a Model 3, Step 2 game, and that was a near perfect port on the DC , In fact that game never gets enough credit for just how good it looked and run on the DC. Virtua Striker 2 was a Model 3, Step 1.5 game and the DC version looked even better than the Arcade So.. while it would have been hardware work, missing the odd bit of detail Ect, etc, AM#2 could have done a near perfect port of Daytona USA2 on the DC had they been given the mandate and put their soul into the port.

Just look at what they did with Ferrari F355 which was a 4 board monster, and they got it running on a stock DC at a rock solid 60fps with split screen. Pretty amazing given the NA@MI board is already more powerful than a stock DC . I think the big advantage Model 3 had over the DC was the speed of the memory, and according to AM#2 you can have the total number of polygons with full effects applied, but on the DC, the more effects you used the bigger the performance cost was


The main issue I think for a lot of DC software was that no 3rd party console developer outside of Namco, Konami was used to polygon budgets of 1 to 3 million polygons in their games. Their modelling software and artists just weren't used or accustom to those sorts of numbers, only Arcade developers had dealings with those sorts of numbers. It took time for them to get up to speed, a lot didn't really try to update their pipelines until the PS2

 

[nkarafo]

Virtual On 2: Oratorio Tangram was a Model 3, Step 2 game, and that was a near perfect port on the DC , In fact that game never gets enough credit for just how good it looked and run on the DC. Virtua Striker 2 was a Model 3, Step 1.5 game and the DC version looked even better than the Arcade So.. while it would have been hardware work, missing the odd bit of detail Ect, etc, AM#2 could have done a near perfect port of Daytona USA2 on the DC had they been given the mandate and put their soul into the port.

Just look at what they did with Ferrari F355 which was a 4 board monster, and they got it running on a stock DC at a rock solid 60fps with split screen. Pretty amazing given the NA@MI board is already more powerful than a stock DC . I think the big advantage Model 3 had over the DC was the speed of the memory, and according to AM#2 you can have the total number of polygons with full effects applied, but on the DC, the more effects you used the bigger the performance cost was

I'm not sure about Virtua ON, it's one of those games i never touched on either hardware. And there are no comparisons on Youtube (or anywhere really) so i can only take your word for it.

Does Virtua Striker 2 look better on DC compared to Naomi? In what way? Because the Naomi version certainly doesn't look better than the Model 3 version. I remember comparing them myself and they looked 100% identical, with the only difference being some textures being lower res on Naomi. Still being identical looking to a Model 3 game is a good enough achievement.

Ferrari F355 doesn't look as impressive as the Model 3 racers, IMO. Although it has some nice open-ended tracks with no pop-up, they also tend to look emptier with more basic objects for track details in comparison. You don't get all the rich, highly detail objects you see left and right in Scud Race or Daytona 2.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I'm not sure about Virtua ON, it's one of those games i never touched on either hardware. And there are no comparisons on Youtube (or anywhere really) so i can only take your word for it.

Does Virtua Striker 2 look better on DC compared to Naomi? In what way? Because the Naomi version certainly doesn't look better than the Model 3 version. I remember comparing them myself and they looked 100% identical, with the only difference being some textures being lower res on Naomi. Still being identical looking to a Model 3 game is a good enough achievement.

Ferrari F355 doesn't look as impressive as the Model 3 racers, IMO. Although it has some nice open-ended tracks with no pop-up, they also tend to look emptier with more basic objects for track details in comparison. You don't get all the rich, highly detail objects you see left and right in Scud Race or Daytona 2.

Trust me, it's 98% there. You'll be hard pressed to see any difference and one can happily play both on an emulator to compare Virtual Striker 2 looks better on the DC, but it's true to say you see more slowdown. The DC version got all the polygons but ran in a higher screen res so you so more detail, and then had the quality of the DC texture's

The issue for F335 is that it went for the realistic real life approach, rather than fantasy and that's why to some say Model 3 Daytona USA 2 can look better, like some people said the say about Daytona USA over Sega Rally in the Arcades. Look how Nintendo is able to push amazing graphics out of the Switch thanks to the unrealistic art direction in its games


I think Spikeout looked better on NA@MI, to,o but I'm sure Nagoshi-san once said somewhere that memory was an issue for any Spikeout port to the DC sadly

 

[SkylineRKR]

Model 3 was very expensive, custom built. It did have issues with certain things.

Naomi and DC were so much more versatile though. DC was consumer priced, Naomi was much cheaper for arcade operators. DC did a good job on Model 3 ports, remember the architecture was completely different. Yet Genki could put out a rushed VF3 port like that, looking 95% identical. Sega Bass fishing, VO, FV2 were really solid Model 3 ports as well. SR2 is an outlier but we know why, it was ported to Windows and then to DC which kind of makes it an emulation running through an DirectX api and not coded to the metal. This allowed more third parties to step in and port their PC versions over.

But you have to look at what other things DC accomplished on top of this. Like Shenmue, JSR, DoA2, SC and RE CV. But it also ran CPS2/3 stuff like SF3, or Neogeo games. It broke no sweat running the likes of Second Impact and MVC1. Or what about Midway conversions like NBA Showtime, Hydro Thunder and Gauntlet Legends. DC simply was more versatile than Model 3 could ever hope to be.

No way in hell Model 3 would be able to run something with the complexity of Shenmue. I've played all Model 3 games, and I have them on Supermodel as well.. they are very one note. Its either racers, lightgun and some semi open world racing like Ambulance and Harley Davidson. Ofcourse, their purpose was a short burst arcade experience. I can only imagine a Model 3 based DC would've been a bigger nightmare than the Saturn was. Who was going to port or develop their games on that architecture?

 

[funking giblet]

This is a really good direct capture from the arcade board of Power Edition. It looks crazy for a 1998 release. I think the PS2 would even struggle to do an arcade perfect port.

Can we just take a minute to look at how insane this stage is, it has everything! Mario Kart style Ship Stage, Lava Stage, Ice Stage, then a Large City, then Country Side, into an Oval Raceway. A real fuck you to other games

 

[nkarafo]

No way in hell Model 3 would be able to run something with the complexity of Shenmue. I've played all Model 3 games, and I have them on Supermodel as well.. they are very one note. Its either racers, lightgun and some semi open world racing like Ambulance and Harley Davidson. Ofcourse, their purpose was a short burst arcade experience. I can only imagine a Model 3 based DC would've been a bigger nightmare than the Saturn was. Who was going to port or develop their games on that architecture?

I don't get your logic.

Obviously the hardware was capable of running anything the Dreamcast could. It's a more powerful board.

But of course, Shenmue is not a game fit for arcades so it would make absolutely no sense to make it. Also, the Model 3 was using traditional ROMs and Shenmue is what, 3 discs holding 2GB in total? There would be no way to store all that in ROMs, the largest ROM based game at the time in the arcades was probably less than 1/10 of that size.

But it also ran CPS2/3 stuff like SF3, or Neogeo games. It broke no sweat running the likes of Second Impact and MVC1. Or what about Midway conversions like NBA Showtime, Hydro Thunder and Gauntlet Legends. DC simply was more versatile than Model 3 could ever hope to be.

None of those things are impressive. Even the Saturn/PS1 could do Neo-Geo/CPS1-2 ports that were almost arcade perfect. Hydro Thunder wasn't even arcade perfect, the DC port is just a 480p version of the N64 port running at higher frame rate, just like many other Midway/Atari games in the late 90's.

It would be a massive waste of money to make Neo-Geo/CPS ports or 2D games in general on Model 3. This was an ultra expensive hardware because of it's raw 3D performance. Why would anyone make any games that don't tap that power? The Naomi was cheap enough to warrant such games and the DC is a console so anything goes.

 

[MrCunningham]

Scud Race was an early Model 3 game too so it's not running on a later version of the hardware.

According to Sega Retro it's a step 1.5 game.

Step 2.0 was also a more substantial upgrade to 1.5 compared to the difference between 1.0 and 1.5. Making Daytona USA 2 an even more demanding game for the DC to port.

Oh yeah. You're right. I was thinking of Sega Rally 2, which is a Step 2 variant. Not Scud Race. Still... I remember being really disjointed when Scud Race never ended up getting a home port to the Dreamcast. It was one of the earliest games announced for the system that made me really want the console to begin with.

Truth be told, the Model hardware (even the early steps) was state of the art, non-retail custom hardware that would cost tens of thousands.

The Dreamcast was a very powerful home hardware but you wouldn't expect the same amount of power from cheap retail parts that were released only a couple of years later.

The GPU found in the DC is based on the PowerVR series 2 line of GPU's, and it was released as a desktop GPU under the name the Neon 250. The Neon 250 was released in 1999, it was a pretty obscure graphics card. It was put up against the GeForce 256 and RIVA TNT2 cards in terms of performance. But due to some driver issues, it could never quite compete with the TNT2.

Toms Hardware still has the review from September 1999:

VideoLogic Neon 250 Review

VideoLogic unleashes its PowerVR Series 2 based Neon 250 hoping to bring the competition to its knees.

www.tomshardware.com

The Dreamcast does use tile based differed rendering as its default rendering .This is a feature that was pioneered by PowerVR, and ended up in many of their desktop GPU's and mobile APU's. The PSVita has deferred tile based rendering like the Dreamcast as well because it uses a PowerVR based GPUl. Nvidia developed their own deferred tile based rendering for the GTX 10 series cards.

Yeah the Lockheed Martin graphics core was custom made, and expensive to produce. It could definitely display more polygons on screen than the Dreamcast hardware, it seems. This honestly seems to be the case for just about every Model 3 game in comparison to the Dreamcast port. Even VF3: TB is displaying far more polygons on screen in the model 3 game in comparison to the Dreamcast port. Same could be said for Fighting Vipers 2, Sega Rally 2, and other Model 3 ports. The Dreamcast still could do some reasonable ports of those games... which the exception of Sega Rally 2... which again... uses Windows CE and runs at inconsistent framerates between 30 and 60fps.

IMO, most of the Dreamcast's best visual achievements don't come from it's raw power but rather it's more modern features and more modern/more advanced software and game dev tools.

Yeah, I think the Dreamcast GPU is DX5 to DX6 compliant. The Neon 260 is a DX6 (or DX7 according to Toms hardware) desktop card. The Windows CE Dreamcast games use DX5 libraries. It does have a bunch of graphical features not found in Model 3. It does really show off in the Sega NAOMI arcade games at times.

 

[Alexios]

More recent stuff (Wipeout is @ 2.5 now, ya know, it's obvious Dreamcast can run a PS tier game this good with proper care - not like the ReVolt port proposed as its max by a certain idiot - I wonder if it can see improvements like the dynamic lights the same guy's Doom 64 port got):
​

 

[Alexios]

dRxLaX

 

[Team Andromeda]

Yeah the Lockheed Martin graphics core was custom made, and expensive to produce. It could definitely display more polygons on screen than the Dreamcast hardware, it seems. This honestly seems to be the case for just about every Model 3 game in comparison to the Dreamcast port. Even VF3: TB is displaying far more polygons on screen in the model 3 game in comparison to the Dreamcast port. Same could be said for Fighting Vipers 2, Sega Rally 2, and other Model 3 ports. The Dreamcast still could do some reasonable ports of those games... which the exception of Sega Rally 2... which again... uses Windows CE and runs at inconsistent framerates between 30 and 60fps.

That was not what Yu Suzuki said, and where he said he was able to push more polygons than on screen with NA@MI than Model 3 boards

Far too much is made over VF 3TB on the DC, overlooking Genki had little over 4 months to handle a port with incomplete development kits and on a brand new system they did wonders to get in at like 98% there and far too many people look to compare the DC version to Model 3 VF3 and not Model 3 version of VF3TB which I'm also sure saw a slight downgrade in the graphics to handle the extra features and 1st person view

I remember an interview with Smilebit back in the day where they said the reason why SR2 used Win CE on the DC was they were used to Direct X (since the team was made up of Ex SEGA PC members) and that at the time of development SEGA's tools didn't support online functions, while Win CE did and the Japanese version of SR2 did have online racing. At the end of the day the title was rushed out and wasn't fully optimised even for Win CE IMO and Fighting Vipers 2 was just filler software for DC let's face it and no proper work was put into that port

One looks at ports where some real effort was put in and it's a much closer call One would be hard pressed to see any difference with Virtual On 2 either on Model 3 or DC, GetBass is almost 1 to 1 (bar slowdown in the DC version) and Virtual Striker 2 looks better on the DC even than the Model 3 version. Trouble is, people will in this day and age will now go running off to YouTube and see the games running on Emu, back back in the day if you played Virtual Striker 2 in the Arcades with their CRT displays, VS2 looked better on the NA@MI board thanks to the DC textures and high res display.

I

 

[MrCunningham]

That was not what Yu Suzuki said, and where he said he was able to push more polygons than on screen with NA@MI than Model 3 boards

I remember those claims too. But I have never seen an example of a Dreamcast game that could obtain the same polycounts as the original, step 1 or step 2 arcade boards while retaining 60fps. The Dreamcast always seems to fall a little short. Maybe I'm wrong? The Dreamcast had such a short life span in retail, that we never saw the machine hit its maximum potential as a console.

I remember an interview with Smilebit back in the day where they said the reason why SR2 used Win CE on the DC was they were used to Direct X (since the team was made up of Ex SEGA PC members) and that at the time of development SEGA's tools didn't support online functions, while Win CE did and the Japanese version of SR2 did have online racing. At the end of the day the title was rushed out and wasn't fully optimised even for Win CE IMO and Fighting Vipers 2 was just filler software for DC let's face it and no proper work was put into that port

I wish I could find the twitter post. But I know that one of the former Smilebit devs posted on Twitter that they did the PC version of Sega Rally 2 first and used Windows CE to port the PC game over to the Dreamcast. They cited that the extra overhead of Windows CE caused some performance issues. Windows CE though, could have been a much better environment if it was built into the DC hardware, instead of being loaded off the disc into RAM. Of if the DC had an additional 4-8MB's of memory. Windows CE was made for low memory embedded devices. It was really being put to the test on the DC. Sega Rally 2 on the DC is a 99% carbon copy of the Windows version but with a worse draw distance and inconsistent framerate (amongst other things).

Sega Rally 2 on the Model 3 step 2 board still looks crazy good, though... The Dreamcast version was one of the first games that I owned for the console. I was always a little disappointing by the shaky framerate. Even if it could be smoothed out with a cheat code that removes most of the 2D BG objects. Even with that said. The Dreamcast/ PC version does have more content overall, I still like the DC version. But the framerate was always a bit of a contention. But... play it on an emulator (like Redream, which I do recommend), and it can run at a smooth 60fps.

One looks at ports where some real effort was put in and it's a much closer call One would be hard pressed to see any difference with Virtual On 2 either on Model 3 or DC, GetBass is almost 1 to 1 (bar slowdown in the DC version) and Virtual Striker 2 looks better on the DC even than the Model 3 version. Trouble is, people will in this day and age will now go running off to YouTube and see the games running on Emu, back back in the day if you played Virtual Striker 2 in the Arcades with their CRT displays, VS2 looked better on the NA@MI board thanks to the DC textures and high res display.

I have never seen Virtua On 2 Model 3 version. Sega did replace the Model 3 board with the NAOMI variant in the arcades, because of the lower production costs of the NAOMI board. NAOMI does have twice the RAM over the Dreamcast, so there is less compression with the textures the NAOMI versions tend to look a little better than their Dreamcast counterparts overall. Can't say that I have ever played HGet Bass, or Virtua Striker 2. Really hard to find direct footage from the real NAOMI arcade board of Virtua Striker 2. Vut even in the off screen footage seen here, there are elements in the NAOMi version that does look better. The PowerVR GPU in the Dreamcast/ NAOMI does have shaders/ rendering pipeline features that are superior to the MODEL 3 hardware. I'm not surprised that the textures and other effects look better. It has better anti-aliasing too and a much cleaner image output overall. I am mostly commenting on Model 3's ability to display a lot of polygons on screen at a high framerate. It was crazy hardware for something from 1996.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Model 3 > dreamcast

no racing game on the dreamcast compares to Daytona 2, Scud Race

Dreamcast was a transitional console between the 5th and 6th gen

 

[kevboard]

Model 3 > dreamcast

no racing game on the dreamcast compares to Daytona 2, Scud Race

Dreamcast was a transitional console between the 5th and 6th gen

it runs Vice City with Xbox assets... wtf do you mean transitional?

 

[MrCunningham]

Model 3 > dreamcast

Dreamcast was a transitional console between the 5th and 6th gen

Hmm... I think in hindsight it is easy to look at the Dreamcast in that way. When the Dreamcast was announced by Sega, it was marketed as the successor to the Saturn, which failed hard in the westren markets. Sega marketed as the'first next gen system' to get released after the PS1, Saturn, and N64. But the Dreamcast does fall into the 'next gen' category in the same way that the 3DO/ Atari Jaguar did. Or maybe even the PC Engine.

Every 6th gen console that came later was able to leap frog over the previous one. Sony made sure that the PS2 was a leap over the Dreamcast in many ways. Higher clocked CPU and GPU, more main system RAM. The Dreamcast could still give early PS2 games a run for their money. The DC had great looking image output, and a reality large pool of VRAM, Plus the way the system could do Tile-Based Rendering system.

Arguably the GameCube was a leap over the PS2 in many ways. But was still bottle necked in some ways that gave the PS2 an advantage in certain circumstances. I think the GameCube RAM was bottlenecked in some way. It was improved heavily with the Wii architecture.

The Xbox was on paper at the high end of that generation, with its 64MB of unified RAM, Geforce 3+ enhanced CPU and coppermine 733MHz CPU. Even though, there are arguments that the Gameube hardware is more efficient in some ways. But I think the Wii was just a better match up. With its higher clocked CPU and GPU and less constrictive RAM implementation. If the Dreamcast is a transitional system betwene 5th and 6th gen consoles. Then the Xbox could be seen as a transitional console between 6th and 7th gen consoles. The Wii is in such a weird position in that sense.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The main issue I think for a lot of DC software was that no 3rd party console developer outside of Namco, Konami was used to polygon budgets of 1 to 3 million polygons in their games. Their modelling software and artists just weren't used or accustom to those sorts of numbers, only Arcade developers had dealings with those sorts of numbers. It took time for them to get up to speed, a lot didn't really try to update their pipelines until the PS2

There is a correlation between textures, polygon count and frame rate on the Dreamcast. All games that exist on the Dreamcast are the maximum that it can provide in each requirement.

If the game has 60fps it can reach 3M polygons if it can achieve 50,000 per frame, (this is only possible in tech demo). In real world games 60fps only in games with a maximum of 40,000 polygons per frame; in fact 30,000 to 40,000 polygons per frame is a huge number on the Dreamcast it is almost always a 30fps game.

The Dreamcast could still give early PS2 games a run for their money.

I lived through that time and I can assure you that everything on the Dreamcast seemed inferior to Ridge Racer, Tekken, SSX, Fifa 2001, Dynasty Warriors 2, The Bouncer even doa2 hardcore. that was the perception that everyone had at the time Nowadays people think differently.

If the Dreamcast is a transitional system betwene 5th and 6th gen consoles. Then the Xbox could be seen as a transitional console between 6th and 7th gen consoles. The Wii is in such a weird position in that sense

Agree. Xbox was so powerful that it could run the other consoles' library at 720p and in some cases offer enhancements.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Arguably the GameCube was a leap over the PS2 in many ways. But was still bottle necked in some ways that gave the PS2 an advantage in certain circumstances. I think the GameCube RAM was bottlenecked in some way. It was improved heavily with the Wii architecture.

The Xbox was on paper at the high end of that generation, with its 64MB of unified RAM, Geforce 3+ enhanced CPU and coppermine 733MHz CPU. Even though, there are arguments that the Gameube hardware is more efficient in some ways. But I think the Wii was just a better match up. With its higher clocked CPU and GPU and less constrictive RAM implementation. If the Dreamcast is a transitional system betwene 5th and 6th gen consoles. Then the Xbox could be seen as a transitional console between 6th and 7th gen consoles. The Wii is in such a weird position in that sense.

The Wii was basically a GameCube with a different chassis. Its key point of differentiation was inputs. It was not a transition console in any way, it was just a hard left turn because the GameCube was mostly a disaster for them with market share, and simply doing a generational leap in tech all over again was clearly not a winning formula for them, going up against the next PlayStation and Xbox heading into the next generation. It also allowed them to keep budgets small for new games, since, like I mentioned, games were basically just GameCube dev environment software + adding Remote controls on top.

I don't think there are any parallels to draw between Dreamcast and Wii. Dreamcast came way too early, and didn't get enough long-term support in software. And everyone was just looking forward to PS2, GameCube and Xbox.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I don't think there are any parallels to draw between Dreamcast and Wii. Dreamcast came way too early, and didn't get enough long-term support in software. And everyone was just looking forward to PS2, GameCube and Xbox.

I can see some parallels between Dreamcast and Switch
except that the Switch was a colossal success and the Dreamcast was a flop.