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[Hoho for breakfast]

Well, this is basically the attitude that allows fascism to gain ground, and also your kind of missing the point that physical violence isn't the only form of violence. Telling people that they are subhuman and that they should die is pretty violent, and inevitably leads to physical violence. See all the acts of white terror that have happened just this year. It's people who buy into these ideologies being spread committing these heinous acts. The idea is to stop any of it from happening, because none of it is at all an acceptable way to behave. It's literally fighting violence with violence, which is what these people understand and buy into. Sometimes words don't cut it. The other thing with these nazi rallies is that they are literally showing up, well armed, and starting fights and provoking violence. We're supposed to just let that happen?

You're absolutely right with the fact that there is more than just physical violence. I wouldn't let them speak at my university, or in my town and so on. Maybe let them spew their hate on a little island like alcatraz or something lol. I don't know I don't have a good answer. It's a hell of a situation. I like the idea of shaming them first though. Take pictures/get names/post them for everyone to see etc

I can say all this but in the end it's going to end in a lot of violence imo. It's pretty inevitable.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Nope. It's great. I'm a communist.


I have been really bad at articulating in posts today. I 150% support antifa, the anarchist portion annoys me, especially when they randomly destroy shit, I recognize their usefulness.

We're exactly on the same page then comrade. I too am annoyed by their anarchy.

 

[Kite]

I'd rather put them be socially ostracized than hit with baseball bats.

Why are you enabling racists~?

 

[Lowmelody]

Anarchist are like neutrons in antifa. They get in the way more often than not, you can't get rid of them but they have their uses.

 

[Servbot24]

Well that isn't happening is it?

A little bit.

Don't get me wrong, if I have to use violence to prevent a direct attack I certainly will. But I'm not going to affiliate with a group that actively promotes violence in general. Maybe I'm naive but I like to believe we can do better than that.

Why are you enabling racists~?

Is this a joke?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

It's insane to me to see people advocate use of violence in these situations. It's like they don't know conflict escalation is a thing. Do you people also advocate for vigilante justice?



Checking the rise of far-right or fascist groups is not solely possible with the use of violence. It's almost like we have a ton of other options to do it.

Show me where nonviolence has worked against fascism and Nazism, especially when tacitly or outright supported by the state.

 

[Somnid]

It's insane to me that people think Nazis can be stopped with hand-wringing and a sternly worded letter.

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

 

[Yaboosh]

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

Ignore them. While they are in the White house. Brilliant!

 

[Verano]

Fuck the antifa. Always trying to block european metal bands with no ties to nazis nor fascist ideologies from touring the the US as well as publicly shaming them because bs suspicions of fascism. Sure a good cause but they rather throw anyone under the bus that they deem fascist and point fingers rather than investing in proper research before making accusations of individuals, groups, bands, etc.
Until they get their shit together, they're just a bunch of rag tag group of misinformed and misguided idiots.

 

[ebullientprism]

Thats a lot of words to say they punch Nazi's.

That is all you should know to be pro Antifa.

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

LMAO they literally have the backing of the most powerful office in the world. How much more power do you think they need? The fuck are you talking about.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

A little bit.

Don't get me wrong, if I have to use violence to prevent a direct attack I certainly will. But I'm not going to affiliate with a group that actively promotes violence in general. Maybe I'm naive but I like to believe we can do better than that.



Is this a joke?

No its not. Y'all tried that fucking nonsense last year and it's led to this. They had literal Nazi's on TV to talk about their views and it didn't stop them it only legitimised them.

 

[aeolist]

Two representatives from the anti-fascist and labor organization The Chicago General Defense Committee, Local 3 joined me recently as my guests on “The Chauncey DeVega Show.”

“I think people get confused about the term ‘antifa,'” said “Andy” (not his real name). “It is an organizing strategy. Antifa is not a group of people. It has a long legacy in this country of people resisting white supremacy, from slave rebellions all the way to the present.”

.

 

[Kebiinu]

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

Ignoring them will NOT make the problem go away. I don't understand why people keep thinking that shit will be fine if we all just cover our ears and bury our heads in the sand. These fuckers are KILLING people, and the "violent" ones are still out, festering, growing; and the 'non-violent' ones are in offices, even the White House.

I'm all for fighting violence with violence, just waiting for these guys to come to NYC so I can protest alongside my fellow man.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

I'm sure they'll get right to it!

 

[The Jackdog]

I just asked this in another thread and i just dont understand it.

why is the term "anti-facist" being used as a NEGATIVE?

why is that like...a bad thing? like i get pro-choice and pro-life. both make it seem like the other group is against choice or against life.

since when is against facism...bad?

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Fuck the antifa. Always trying to block european metal bands with no ties to nazis nor fascist ideologies from touring the the US as well as publicly shaming them because bs suspicions of fascism. Sure a good cause but they rather throw anyone under the bus that they deem fascist and point fingers rather than investing in proper research before making accusations of individuals, groups, bands, etc.
Until they get their shit together, they're just a bunch of rag tag group of misinformed and misguided idiots.

Dude, you serious with this shit?

 

[RDreamer]

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

They... don't have any specific power or backing? You mean except the power and backing of the fucking President? There are literal Nazis in his cabinet (Gorka) and other white supremacists/nationalists (Bannon/Miller). Ignoring them gives them power to speak, spread, and propagandize.

Would people be ok with a strategy of just ignoring them if say ISIS started openly marching and recruiting in US cities? I'm not even debating currently a jump to violence, but "ignore them" is surely the worst fucking thing to do in either of these cases.

 

[aeolist]

Even easier, ignore them. They don't have any specific power or backing, they want to trigger people and look imposing. The violent ones will get collected as all criminals should.

they have the white house

and lol at the idea that the cops will do anything, the cops are mostly on their side and will always defend property before people

 

[cromofo]

Fuck communism btw. Seems like we have a few ITT.

 

[Dopus]

Nope. It's great. I'm a communist.

I have been really bad at articulating in posts today. I 150% support antifa, the anarchist portion annoys me, especially when they randomly destroy shit, I recognize their usefulness.

We're exactly on the same page then comrade. I too am annoyed by their anarchy.

Comrades, property destruction, and other black bloc methods are effective tactics. A few windows or smashed up cars is nothing.

Fuck communism btw. Seems like we have a few ITT.

Fuck centrists.

 

[The Wart]

Some of us believe that conflict escalation is inevitable at this point. Nazi's murdered someone on Saturday in case you forgot.

As for these "other options," what are they? If the government refuses to police these terrorists, then the only other option if for the people to police themselves.

I'm not sure how you get from a protester being murdered to widespread violence being inevitable. Obviously it was a tragedy, but worse has happened at many times in many countries without them descending into post-apocalyptic war zones.

In any case, if antifa sticks to opposing Nazis at rallies and gatherings and keeps injuries and property damage minimal that can be directly attributed to them minimal, it will be fine and I doubt smear campaigns will gain much traction outside of the usual right-wing talking points. But if they overplay their hand there will be a massive backlash.

Edit: What I wrote above implies antifa is a single coherent organization, which afik it is not, so we should really say "groups and organizers that brand themselves as antifa" or something.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

It's literally the only thing that's ever worked though.

White Rose, Rosenstrasse resistance, Norweigian civil disobedience to Nazification of their education system, and several other examples of it exist in history. There are also other high profile nonviolent revolutions that worked to bring down extremist governments in history. It's almost like it HAS happened in the past, imagine that.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I just asked this in another thread and i just dont understand it.

why is the term "anti-facist" being used as a NEGATIVE?

why is that like...a bad thing? like i get pro-choice and pro-life. both make it seem like the other group is against choice or against life.

since when is against facism...bad?

Right wing spin. It's basically a "both sides" argument designed to stop those with anti fascist views from coming together.

 

[MistakenMobius]

White Rose, Rosenstrasse resistance, Norweigian civil disobedience to Nazification of their education system, and several other examples of it exist in history. There are also other high profile nonviolent revolutions that worked to bring down extremist governments in history. It's almost like it HAS happened in the past, imagine that.

And in most developed countries buries unlike the USA. Hate speech has been banned.
The national front ever managed to have they grassroots movement standing until a few years ago because they were disbanded by te gouvernent.

 

[chugen]

Fuck communism btw. Seems like we have a few ITT.

yup. fuck that bullshit

 

[jph139]

The problem with violence is that, once you add it to your toolbox, it becomes VERY tempting to reach for it first. Not every problem is a nail, so not every problem needs a hammer.

Look at the Milo protests at Berkeley for an example. Did he need to be protested, shouted down, and stopped from speaking? Yes. Was starting a riot that spilled into the city, resulting in multiple innocent people being attacked, the best way to do that? Nah. I don't think so.

Those were antifa tactics unleashed for no good reason. There's a time and a place.

 

[aeolist]

I just asked this in another thread and i just dont understand it.

why is the term "anti-facist" being used as a NEGATIVE?

why is that like...a bad thing? like i get pro-choice and pro-life. both make it seem like the other group is against choice or against life.

since when is against facism...bad?

since when is saying "black lives matter" bad?

challenges to the right wing status quo will always be met with slander and violence

 

[Z3M0G]

This is interesting... I guess it's just insane to think that we live in a world where such groups are "necessary"...

I guess it depends how different the world is from 100 years ago...

Fuck the antifa. Always trying to block european metal bands with no ties to nazis nor fascist ideologies from touring the the US as well as publicly shaming them because bs suspicions of fascism. Sure a good cause but they rather throw anyone under the bus that they deem fascist and point fingers rather than investing in proper research before making accusations of individuals, groups, bands, etc.
Until they get their shit together, they're just a bunch of rag tag group of misinformed and misguided idiots.

Dude, you serious with this shit?

Sounds like a valid concern to me...

A group that dedicates themselves to hunting down and punching Nazi's easily sounds like something that can go "too far"... and target people who don't deserve it. And I'm sure they live and breath this ideology at all times (like Nazi's do with their own).

 

[spelen]

So how can anyone in a democracy be against these guys ?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

This is interesting... I guess it's just insane to think that we live in a world where such groups are "necessary"...

I guess it depends how different the world is from 100 years ago...

Where there are fascists, anti fascists are needed.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The problem is that because the group is not centralized and they have no overarching organization, it causes problems as certain groups use the antifa movement to represent their own ideals. Here in Philly recently there's been a problem with professed antifa members who hold anarcho-capitalist beliefs going through working class neighborhoods and vandalizing cars, homes, and businesses.

Generally I renounce violence when it comes to protest movements, though I'm fine with defending yourself and others directly from attacks. But when people carry antifa banners and vandalize neighborhoods and act violently it's pretty ridiculous, especially in an extremely liberal city where a large majority of residents are minorities, not white supremacists.

To that, I'll add that antifas where have used violence, threats and intimidation to shut down harmless metal concerts. They even harassed concertgoers at their own hotel, some of which were PoC. There was even a list of metal bands "to avoid" that was being circulated, which featured tons of non-political, non-NS bands. It was ridiculous.

I support antifa causes and even methods... so long as their targets are actual fascists. Punching Richard Spencer and the Charlottesville marchers, take down confederate statues, and all that jazz: cool. I'm with you. Vandalizing unrelated stores (because "grr capitalism" or whatever) or shutting down non-political music concerts? Not cool, fuck off.

"Everyone is antifa as long as you hate fascism" is a really dumb statement that muddies the waters around a movement that's relatively new to US politics, so I'd encourage people to stop dropping that one.

Not everyone who supports a republic is a Republican. Not everyone who likes living is pro-life. Not everyone who likes living in a society is a socialist. Not everyone opposed to fascism is antifa.

I think antifa is an important force for good, but their tactics can be criticized on a case-by-case basis. But their role in Charlottesville is 100% "good shit" as far as I know.

This.

Dude, you serious with this shit?

While I wouldn't denounce the entire movement myself, what they're saying about metal concerts is true, and it's certainly bullshit.

I wonder if this shit happens only when they run out of targets to attack. Fascists and nazis are not exactly common in my city, they don't have actual nazis to protest so they grasp at straws to find enemies? IDK

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

oh. So that's what the term stands for. You know, after all the other abbreviations in the news being nothing good (like USA ), I really had the wrong association with that tag.

Just say 'antifascist' ffs. Also, I'm somewhat shocked that being 'antifascist' even needs pointing out at all... :\

 

[StrategyFan]

I just asked this in another thread and i just dont understand it.

why is the term "anti-facist" being used as a NEGATIVE?

why is that like...a bad thing? like i get pro-choice and pro-life. both make it seem like the other group is against choice or against life.

since when is against facism...bad?

antifa does a poor job of separating itself from anarchists

what is anarchy? survival of the fittest? no protections for anyone? the anarchists don't have any answers. i think they just want to break some shit

 

[Nepenthe]

Antifa are the first line of defense for fascism in my book, and are sorely necessary against an existential threat to minorities like myself. Let them do the dirty work and blow those bitches back out the front door while the more pearl-clutchy liberals fight the political battles while crying about the primary.

 

[Dopus]

antifa does a poor job of separating itself from anarchists

what is anarchy? survival of the fittest? no protections for anyone? the anarchists don't have any answers. i think they just want to break some shit

I think you have no idea what you're talking about. Educate yourself as to what Anarchism is before you spout this utter nonsense.

 

[Krauser Kat]

ANTI-FA sounds sooo much better then AN-TIFA which is correct pronunciation.

 

[michaelius]

And now I realize that antifa stands for anti-fascists. Isn't that like, everyone who's not fascist?

Yeah I wonder what fascism they are fightning when they do riots during G20 summits burning cars and vandalising shops.

That article looks like antifa love letter when in reality they are left wind extremists

 

[ZOONAMI]

White Rose, Rosenstrasse resistance, Norweigian civil disobedience to Nazification of their education system, and several other examples of it exist in history. There are also other high profile nonviolent revolutions that worked to bring down extremist governments in history. It's almost like it HAS happened in the past, imagine that.

And there was zero violence going on at all that contributed to the revolutions? No one ever punched anyone in the face over their views? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Locke Lamora]

Gotta love antifa.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

ANTI-FA sounds sooo much better then AN-TIFA which is correct pronunciation.

I think the pronunciation comes from the origin in German. So it's all one word in German as opposed to the two words in English, hence the pronunciation.

 

[Servbot24]

No its not. Y'all tried that fucking nonsense last year and it's led to this. They had literal Nazi's on TV to talk about their views and it didn't stop them it only legitimised them.

Firstly, don't blame me for Nazis. Nazis are to blame for Nazis and GOP is responsible for enabling them.

Secondly, no we didn't try. I voted, but by and large Democrats were lazy, complacent, mediocre people who sat their asses at home on election day. Maybe if we actually did try things would be different.

 

[aeolist]

antifa does a poor job of separating itself from anarchists

what is anarchy? survival of the fittest? no protections for anyone? the anarchists don't have any answers. i think they just want to break some shit

there's a lot of anarchist literature out there if you really want to inform yourself rather than shitpost

 

[pr0cs]

As long as they don't hide behind masks like the cowards they're supposedly against then so be it

 

[Prax]

Antifa has two purposes: Shout down Nazis and challenge authority.

They are not a political movement in the classical sense, they aren't pursuing a specific goal. Which makes it even weirder that so many right winger point out that they are communists. So what? they aren't actually pushing a communist agenda or anything.

I posted this a couple of time, but I think its worth it for some perspective, a translated german news article about the Antifa:

German source: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/chaoten-oder-heilsbringer-danke-liebe-antifa/9382378.html

Thanks for the post. I pretty much agreed with what I read.

Antifa are like an immune response to facists. Yes, getting a fever/cough/broken windows can be a hindrance when things get heated, but you should look at the bigger picture and see that it's the body of society trying to fight off and keep in line the even worse disease that is facism.

So while antifa and whatever anarchist co-opters can get aggravating or even threatening (think of it as like an allergic reaction sometimes to what you might think is an innocuous trigger), it's a small price to pay if it means keeping facism from taking over and completely infecting every level of society. (I have heard people with lots of allergies have lower susceptibility to cancer? haha)

 

[aeolist]

Yeah I wonder what fascism they are fightning when they do riots during G20 summits burning cars and vandalising shops.

That article looks like antifa love letter when in reality they are left wind extremists

"property matters more than human lives and civil rights"

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

And there was zero violence going on at all that contributed to the revolutions? No one ever punched anyone in the face over their views? I find that hard to believe.

There's a difference between incidence of violence and resulting self-defense occurring and outright fomenting violence and advocating for it. I know that might be too subtle for some people.

 

[DrForester]

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Comrades, property destruction, and other black bloc methods are effective tactics. A few windows or smashed up cars is nothing.

I've never supported the destruction of property of the average citizen. I'm less bothered by the destruction of property of the bourgeoisie and of government property.

Fuck communism btw. Seems like we have a few ITT.

yup. fuck that bullshit

I bet you two don't even know what modern communism is.

 

[Nafai1123]

I'm not sure how you get from a protester being murdered to widespread violence being inevitable. Obviously it was a tragedy, but worse has happened at many times in many countries without them descending into post-apocalyptic war zones.

In any case, if antifa sticks to opposing Nazis at rallies and gatherings and keeps injuries and property damage minimal that can be directly attributed to them minimal, it will be fine and I doubt smear campaigns will gain much traction outside of the usual right-wing talking points. But if they overplay their hand there will be a massive backlash.

Edit: What I wrote above implies antifa is a single coherent organization, which afik it is not, so we should really say "groups and organizers that brand themselves as antifa" or something.

I'm not saying widespread violence, just violence against nazis.

Let's be real, there would be massive backlash from the usual right-wing regardless. Just look at how they've portrayed BLM. All it takes is one person to damage property or hurt someone and the entire movement is vilified. That is to be expected.

If we're worried about massive backlash from people on the left for attacking nazis, I don't think they were ever on our side (or left) to begin with.

 

[MUnited83]

antifa does a poor job of separating itself from anarchists

what is anarchy? survival of the fittest? no protections for anyone? the anarchists don't have any answers. i think they just want to break some shit

That's not what anarchism is at all. There is plenty on the subject that you can read.