Support NeoGAF

[sphagnum]

Pretty good article OP, I'm surprised WaPo didn't publish something more equivocating.

Trump has done a lot to reinvigorate the radical left after a long period of dormancy. I expect to see more organizing as leftists from the international brigades in Rojava come home as well.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Please leftists don't adopt antifa for yourselves. Don't associate with anarchists and stalinists assholes who cover their heads and destroy property at every protest. That's what Trump supporters want. They want to tie the mainstream left to the extreme left.

 

[Not Drake]

Some of the takes in this thread my god.

When I see white supremacists waving a nazi flag fighting leftist revolutionaries waving a soviet flag I don't want to join one of those groups. I want them all in prison.

 

[sphagnum]

Please leftists don't adopt antifa for yourselves. Don't associate with anarchists and stalinists assholes who cover their heads and destroy property at every protest. That's what Trump supporters want. They want to tie the mainstream left to the extreme left.

There are approximately 0 Stalinists in Antifa, because anarchists and Stalinists hate each other. There are, however, libcoms and other communists.

 

[Kin5290]

And now I realize that antifa stands for anti-fascists. Isn't that like, everyone who's not fascist?

Everyone who's not fascist and also sticks their neck out there to fight back against fascists.

 

[Muffin1611]

All the people here saying Antifa is purely a antifascist movement and therefore is 100% good should take a quick look at G20 in Hamburg this year please

I'm sure all these middle class citizens loved their probably not fully insured cars being burned

Antifa is good when they're protesting Nazis (yes, even the occasional violence in places like the US where hate speech laws aren't a thing and police sucks is something I accept as necessary or to be expected)

When it's about anti-capitalism and the like they mostly do stupid shit

Post #30 pretty much sums it up

 

[Wrestlemania]

You should probably read more in to what a lot of these modern day masked "Antifa" do before you say they're worthy of being placed alongside Allied fighters in World War 2 who stormed beaches through artillery fire to fight actual Nazis.

I don't even know why this needs to be said.

Got any links to articles documenting some specific instances of what the “modern day” Antifa have done that is so beyond the pale they discredit the group entirely?

 

[The Wraith]

I whole heartedly support Antifa. Any Nazi can meet the business end of my fist.

Ufortunately we have a Nazi sympathizer as a president which emboldens these asswipes. Time to fight back.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

"property matters more than human lives and civil rights"

I still remember people arguing this point in the Baltimore riot thread.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

antifa are clowns who feed into our current violent political climate. I don't support them at all. Be peaceful and protest, or don't bother. A lot of Antifa are cowards in black clothing looking to ruin shit. Let the WN throw the punches so the law enforcement can deal with them. More violence breeds more violence.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Maybe people would get it more if all they'd do was fight nazis

Maybe more people would get it if they weren't indifferent to racism, white supremacy, and now, Nazis and Nazi violence.

This includes "liberals", many of whom appear to be in this thread.

Keep doing what you do, Antfila.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You should probably read more in to what a lot of these modern day masked "Antifa" do before you say they're worthy of being placed alongside Allied fighters in World War 2 who stormed beaches through artillery fire to fight actual Nazis.

I don't even know why this needs to be said.

Seriously. It's downright embarrassing.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Living through this, I'm starting to understand the pacifist movement in the US during WWII really well.

White comfort.

That and order above all mantra.

 

[Psychoward]

Antifa is great and most of the people that I see deriding them parrot unsubstantiated alt-right talking points about them so

 

[sphagnum]

antifa are clowns who feed into our current violent political climate. I don't support them at all. Be peaceful and protest. A lot of Antifa are cowards in black clothing looking to ruin shit. Let the WN throw the punches so the law enforcement can deal with them.

We just saw white nationalists nearly lynch a black man next to a police station and they didn't do shit

 

[blackflag]

'Smash Nazis, not windows' somebody put this on a shirt

Good slogan. hurry up and copyright that.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Sure...

..tell that to the two journalists who were physically attacked by Anifa..purely for filming at Charlottesville.

I mean the female reporter for The Hill who was covering the counterprotests and was punched in the face for her trouble (despite informing them she was press)...will sure be thankful Antifa are around to protect her..


..as will the CBS photo-journalist who Antifa hit around the head, who needed 4 staples for the wound they created and has been off with concussion since the attack..I'm sure he is happy for their protection as well.

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/897981824512688128

Not excusing them being attacked at all, but in the immediate aftermath of someone driving a car into a crowd, it's reasonable to expect tensions to be sufficiently high that someone might react badly to seeing someone filming while people are injured or possibly dead. They weren't going out of their way to find journalists to attack in a normal circumstance.
Do you really think this discredits the counter protesters entirely, or that it's worth focusing on this in order to help other discredits them?

 

[blackflag]

We just saw white nationalists nearly lynch a black man next to a police station and they didn't do shit

EXACTLY. Talking does nothing with these people. It never has and never will.

 

[Psychoward]

antifa are clowns who feed into our current violent political climate. I don't support them at all. Be peaceful and protest, or don't bother. A lot of Antifa are cowards in black clothing looking to ruin shit. Let the WN throw the punches so the law enforcement can deal with them. More violence breeds more violence.

neo-nazis are perfectly capable of committing violence with or without agitators ty

 

[Valhelm]

antifa are clowns who feed into our current violent political climate. I don't support them at all. Be peaceful and protest. A lot of Antifa are cowards in black clothing looking to ruin shit. Let the WN throw the punches so the law enforcement can deal with them.

Law enforcement has a horrible track record for containing fascism. Many local departments have even been compromised by white nationalists.

Antifa members might make some poor tactical choices, but they risk life and limb to fight the most violent and dangerous thugs in our country. Guess your definition of coward is different from mine.

 

[Yen]

b-but what about the marketplace of ideas

 

[sphagnum]

The American Antifa offshoot has been criticized by other anarchists for being too liberal in its approach since it focuses on fascists specifically and not the wider capitalist forces that help produce fascism, so if you're thoughts about Antifa are coming from the European perspective of BUT THEY SMASH WINDOWS then it's a little misplaced.

It's something loosely organized so you're going to get some people who lean more anarchist and some people who are laser focused on Nazis.

 

[The Kree]

Antifa sound like the good guys to me.

 

[Kthulhu]

The problem is that because the group is not centralized and they have no overarching organization, it causes problems as certain groups use the antifa movement to represent their own ideals. Here in Philly recently there's been a problem with professed antifa members who hold anarcho-capitalist beliefs going through working class neighborhoods and vandalizing cars, homes, and businesses.

Generally I renounce violence when it comes to protest movements, though I'm fine with defending yourself and others directly from attacks. But when people carry antifa banners and vandalize neighborhoods and act violently it's pretty ridiculous, especially in an extremely liberal city where a large majority of residents are minorities, not white supremacists.

I'm of a similar stance. Antifa defending minority groups is great. Not a fan of the ones who actively commit unprovoked violence.

 

[Psychoward]

The American Antifa offshoot has been criticized by other anarchists for being too liberal in its approach since it focuses on fascists specifically and not the wider capitalist forces that help produce fascism, so if you're thoughts about Antifa are coming from the European perspective of BUT THEY SMASH WINDOWS then it's a little misplaced.

It's something loosely organized so you're going to get some people who lean more anarchist and some people who are laser focused on Nazis.

Yeah the American antifa are much, much less extremist and much, much less intimidating from what I've seen. Also daily reminder that the NJ government led by such paragons of justice Chris Christie labelled antifa a domestic terror group without listing a single unprovoked violent act. Unsurprisingly this act was loved at such sites like infowars...

 

[Ragnite]

....because they have vandalized, rioted and are totally anti capitalist and support communist ideology. In principle, they are morally superior to neo nazi's/white supremacists/racists, but their actions aren't too different and they're just another violent collectivist/totalitarian movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s1c1n-eZiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbS4daSF9M

This is a small example of what they caused in Hamburg with their demonstrations and this isn't the only case in Europe. I'm for groups who stand up against white supremacy agenda, especially as a immigrant and person of color, but I can't fully get behind Antifa. They only made their case look terrible in the case above. Read up on marxist ideology and how big of a killer it is if instilled in a society before you take arms with pro communist groups.

Thanks for the videos, I hadn't seen them yet and they changed my mind a bit about this movement. Frightening imagery.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Sure...

..tell that to the two journalists who were physically attacked by Anifa..purely for filming at Charlottesville.

I mean the female reporter for The Hill who was covering the counterprotests and was punched in the face for her trouble (despite informing them she was press)...will sure be thankful Antifa are around to protect her..


..as will the CBS photo-journalist who Antifa hit around the head, who needed 4 staples for the wound they created and has been off with concussion since the attack..I'm sure he is happy for their protection as well.

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/897981824512688128

You should probably read more in to what a lot of these modern day masked "Antifa" do before you say they're worthy of being placed alongside Allied fighters in World War 2 who stormed beaches through artillery fire to fight actual Nazis.

I don't even know why this needs to be said.

But their name is ANTI- FAcist! and fascism is BAD so they cant be bad people.

Spoiler

This is seriously some of the reasoning Ive seen in this thread

A vigilante group accountable to no one, who deems who is worthy of being on the receiving end of violence and who isnt, is not a good thing.

.

👀 👀 👀

 

[The Wart]

Not excusing them being attacked at all, but in the immediate aftermath of someone driving a car into a crowd, it's not reasonable to expect tensions to be sufficiently high that someone might react badly to seeing someone filming while people are injured or possibly dead. They weren't going out of their way to find journalists to attack in a normal circumstance.
Do you really think this discredits the counter protesters entirely, or that it's worth focusing on this in order to help other discredits them?

Do you really think that all criticism of people on your side of a fight should be suppressed until some undefined later date? I think a whooooole lot of the business wing of the republican party is regretting that tactic right now. That road goes to a bad place.

Attacking journalists is bad. Full stop. No one should be making excuses for it. And no, criticizing them is not the same thing saying that they are just as bad as nazis or is bad overall.

Also daily reminder that the NJ government led by such paragons of justice Chris Christie labelled antifa a domestic terror group without listing a single unprovoked violent act. Unsurprisingly this act was loved at such sites like infowars...

Sheesh, the man is literally an internet troll governor at this point.

 

[Wrestlemania]

....because they have vandalized, rioted and are totally anti capitalist and support communist ideology. In principle, they are morally superior to neo nazi's/white supremacists/racists, but their actions aren't too different and they're just another violent collectivist/totalitarian movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s1c1n-eZiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbS4daSF9M

This is a small example of what they caused in Hamburg with their demonstrations and this isn't the only case in Europe. I'm for groups who stand up against white supremacy agenda, especially as a immigrant and person of color, but I can't fully get behind Antifa. They only made their case look terrible in the case above. Read up on marxist ideology and how big of a killer it is if instilled in a society before you take arms with pro communist groups.

The G20 attracts protests far wider than just anti fascists. Perhaps consider the sources that are attributing every act of violence or vandalism in those protests to Antifa.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Do you really think that all criticism of people on your side of a fight should be suppressed until some undefined later date? I think a whooooole lot of the business wing of the republican party is regretting that tactic right now. That road goes to a bad place.

Attacking journalists is bad. Full stop. No one should be making excuses for it. And no, criticizing them is not the same thing saying that they are just as bad as nazis or is bad overall.

People in this thread are taking incidents like this and then outright condemning the group. I’m saying that the condemnation and criticism of instances like this should be proportionate. Especially when the perpetrators were part of the counter protest and perhaps not even self identified Antifa.

 

[Muffin1611]

The American Antifa offshoot has been criticized by other anarchists for being too liberal in its approach since it focuses on fascists specifically and not the wider capitalist forces that help produce fascism, so if you're thoughts about Antifa are coming from the European perspective of BUT THEY SMASH WINDOWS then it's a little misplaced.

It's something loosely organized so you're going to get some people who lean more anarchist and some people who are laser focused on Nazis.

The G20 attracts protests far wider than just anti fascists. Perhaps consider the sources that are attributing every act of violence or vandalism in those protests to Antifa.

These are also good points. American Antifa thankfully seems rather focused on nazism and my G20 example ofc can't be fully attributed to Antifa.

It's worth mentioning though as the article describes general Antifa as well and doesn't really go in on it's worse side and some posters here were saying every non-Nazi is Antifa and they're basically the same as the allies from WW2 which frankly just isn't true.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The both sides sentiment in this thread is strong.

The threat of violence is always there with white supremacy groups and neo Nazis. The mere presence of Antifa keeps this in check because they're known for not backing down. That sort of counter movement is needed.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

American Antifa isn't inherently anarchist, it's just that American anarchists are inherently anti-fascist (along with anti a lot of other things) so they tend to co-opt the image of antifa and then engage in wanton destruction of the wrong targets.

Most communists I know are practical and pragmatic. We know that there won't be a proletariat uprising in America, we know what the terms communism and socialism and been so thoroughly tarnished by the establishment. We work mostly within the system (and a little bit outside) to incrementally get where we want to go. We know it's going to be a long road and most of us won't live long enough to see the final fruits of our labor.

We take steps towards promoting greater egalitarianism and when those steps are threatened by fascism, especially state sponsored fascism, we know that we can't just "talk it out" or we will lose all of the progress made.

 

[TTOOLL]

Please leftists don't adopt antifa for yourselves. Don't associate with anarchists and stalinists assholes who cover their heads and destroy property at every protest. That's what Trump supporters want. They want to tie the mainstream left to the extreme left.

This is what true antifa is. Saying it's everybody who goes against Nazis is dumb and false.


Also, I see no difference between supporting Stalin and Hitler. Both are asshole murderes who destroyed the life of millions of people.

 

[Taker666]

Not excusing them being attacked at all, but in the immediate aftermath of someone driving a car into a crowd, it's not reasonable to expect tensions to be sufficiently high that someone might react badly to seeing someone filming while people are injured or possibly dead. They weren't going out of their way to find journalists to attack in a normal circumstance.
Do you really think this discredits the counter protesters entirely, or that it's worth focusing on this in order to help other discredits them?

I think anyone who wears a mask to hide their face, tools up with weapons before going to counter-protest, punches innocents, burns things, and damages property..under the guise of being antifascist..is in reality an anarchist thug who really just wants a fight.

Antifa tends to be full of those types. Now the vast majority of counter-protesters are likely not in masks, feel no need to damage things, are not Antifa and are genuine anti-fascists...sadly I think Antifa makes things far more dangerous for those genuine counter-protesters and may discredit them in the future by association...

Now that Antifa are a focal point, there's a real danger that their actions in future may well allow the "both sides" narrative to be pushed.

 

[The Wart]

Especially when the perpetrators were part of the counter protest and perhaps not even self identified Antifa.

That's a good point. One of the... issues? challenges? of dealing with or even talking about decentralized grassroots groups like this is that the boundaries are poorly defined, making miscommunication and misinformation very easy. People in this thread are talking about different things using the same label.

...and now that Antifa are a focal point, there's a real danger that their actions in future may well allow the "both sides" narrative to be pushed.

Are they a focal point? It's not at all clear that anywhere near a majority of the protesters identified as antifa. They are talking point, sure, but afaik not clearly a focal point of what is actually happening on the ground.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

At least they're not nazis.

 

[Linkura]

The reason why they're called "antifa" is because if they used the full name, "anti-fascists," it would give up the goose and the alt-right wouldn't get the "antifa" hate from ignoramuses that they want. Because seriously, who the fuck is anti-anti-fascists, except for fascists?

 

[Nafai1123]

I'm curious if those saying antifa are just a bunch of cowards who destroy property and wear masks would say the same about BLM. There's been destruction of property, attacks on police, etc that have been associated with BLM, and yet I would never condemn BLM for being a violent movement. Some people are idiots, that doesn't mean the entire movement represents those people or is not worthy of existing. By some accounts, antifa saved protestors in Charlottesville last weekend from being squashed by nazis.

 

[Otnopolit]

The both sides sentiment in this thread is strong.

The threat of violence is always there with white supremacy groups and neo Nazis. The mere presence of Antifa keeps this in check because they're known for not backing down. That sort of counter movement is needed.

I don't understand how being for a group like Antifa but disagreeing when they resort to violence that's not a direct response to a group like White Nationalists is playing the both sides card. I see it as identifying grey areas and dissecting them to better understand how Antifa can do the most good within ethical standards, and when those ethical standards can be forgone.

I'm not against Antifa punching and fighting because it's against the law, I'm against it because it feeds in to narratives. I support Antifa physically defending those who are in immediate danger, but there are serious consequences when a group operates outside the law. The Nazi's will be allowed to march, but it's the Antifa that will go to jail if they try to attack them, and that is what they will be known for.

 

[Muffin1611]

I think anyone who wears a mask to hide their face, tools up with weapons before going to counter-protest, punches innocents, burns things, and damages property..under the guise of being antifascist..is in reality an anarchist thug who really just wants a fight.

Antifa tends to be full of those types. Now the vast majority of counter-protesters are likely not in masks, feel no need to damage things, are not Antifa and are genuine anti-fascists...sadly I think Antifa makes things far more dangerous for those genuine counter-protesters...

...and now that Antifa are a focal point, there's a real danger that their actions in future may well allow the "both sides" narrative to be pushed.

Eh, while the first two parts are mostly true, I wouldn't agree on the last. Nazis just murdered a woman and injured countless people and we still have a "both sides" narrative being pushed from the WH and countless other idiots. American politics seem to be in a state where that will inevitably happen, regardless of American Antifa having extreme elements or not.

 

[Tain]

"Everyone is antifa as long as you hate fascism" is a really dumb statement that muddies the waters around a movement that's relatively new to US politics, so I'd encourage people to stop dropping that one.

Antifa are my heroes and the people who tut-tut about windows really don't get it.

Antifa is great and most of the people that I see deriding them parrot unsubstantiated alt-right talking points about them so

yup yuuup

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Sure...

..tell that to the two journalists who were physically attacked by Anifa..purely for filming at Charlottesville.

I mean the female reporter for The Hill who was covering the counterprotests and was punched in the face for her trouble (despite informing them she was press)...will sure be thankful Antifa are around to protect her..


..as will the CBS photo-journalist who Antifa hit around the head, who needed 4 staples for the wound they created and has been off with concussion since the attack..I'm sure he is happy for their protection as well.

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/897981824512688128

I've seen the supposed videos of "Antifa" attacking the journalists. I've yet to see the actual reporters say it was Antifa. What was shown looked like regular protesters who were there and turned around and started attacking the reporter. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the only thing I've seen are right wing YouTube sites posting a video of Antifa attacking in where the video has been edited with dark and scary music while you can't really make out what is happening other than the reporter getting attacked. You can't even see the individual responsible for said attack. I've also seen tweets by the journalists talking about the attack and none mentioned Antifa. At least from appearances this seems like a BLM situation all over again where renegade protesters act foolish and destructive on their own and then they get grouped into an organization.

 

[MistakenMobius]

The reason why they're called "antifa" is because if they used the full name, "anti-fascists," it would give up the goose and the alt-right wouldn't get the "antifa" hate from ignoramuses that they want. Because seriously, who the fuck is anti-anti-fascists, except for fascists?

Well in Europe I can find plenty of Anti-Fa for whom Obama and HRC are fascists.
If you are supporting Obama, are u a fascist?

 

[souppboy]

Maybe people would get it more if all they'd do was fight nazis

THIS. This is the whole point I try to make. It's not as black and white. Charlottesville, yeah I'll give them a pass. Would've been worse without them.

But I'd say more often than not, ANTIFA start shit for themselves to "solve" to create legitimacy which I see as detrimental and severely hurts the ability to be seen as a force for good in the world. 2 wrongs don't make a right, and 1 right doesn't negate your bad choices

 

[Wrestlemania]

I think anyone who wears a mask to hide their face, tools up with weapons before going to counter-protest, punches innocents, burns things, and damages property..under the guise of being antifascist..is in reality an anarchist thug who really just wants a fight.

Antifa tends to be full of those types. Now the vast majority of counter-protesters are likely not in masks, feel no need to damage things, are not Antifa and are genuine anti-fascists...sadly I think Antifa makes things far more dangerous for those genuine counter-protesters...

...and now that Antifa are a focal point, there's a real danger that their actions in future may well allow the "both sides" narrative to be pushed.

If you are genuinely concerned about the bolded, then surely you can see that you are part of the problem? You're focusing so much attention on actions may not even necessarily being taken by self identified Antifa or are things like the attacks on journalists which, without any consideration for the context, are made to sound far more sinister than the reality of them being poor reactions from people in naturally heightened states of emotion in the aftermath of a terrorist attack.

 

[jph139]

I'm curious if those saying antifa are just a bunch of cowards who destroy property and wear masks would say the same about BLM. There's been destruction of property, attacks on police, etc that have been associated with BLM, and yet I would never condemn BLM for being a violent movement. Some people are idiots, that doesn't mean the entire movement represents those people or is not worthy of existing. By some accounts, antifa saved protestors in Charlottesville last weekend from being squashed by nazis.

BLM leaders and organizers, to my knowledge, have always disavowed violence. Violence is occasionally the result of BLM protests but it's not the goal.

Antifa defines itself by use of violence. If you're not using violence to resist fascism, you're not antifa. The article in the OP is absolutely glowing with support for them and uses this definition, because it's self-applied.

 

[sphagnum]

Just as a reminder, the Rojava revolutionaries fighting ISIS are also Antifa supporters. Mostly I just want an excuse to post this picture.

 

[spelen]

....because they have vandalized, rioted and are totally anti capitalist and support communist ideology. In principle, they are morally superior to neo nazi's/white supremacists/racists, but their actions aren't too different and they're just another violent collectivist/totalitarian movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s1c1n-eZiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbS4daSF9M

This is a small example of what they caused in Hamburg with their demonstrations and this isn't the only case in Europe. I'm for groups who stand up against white supremacy agenda, especially as a immigrant and person of color, but I can't fully get behind Antifa. They only made their case look terrible in the case above. Read up on marxist ideology and how big of a killer it is if instilled in a society before you take arms with pro communist groups.

thanks for the additional info.

 

[The Wart]

If you are genuinely concerned about the bolded, then surely you can see that you are part of the problem? You're focusing so much attention on actions may not even necessarily being taken by self identified Antifa or are things like the attacks on journalists which, without any consideration for the context, are made to sound far more sinister than the reality of them being poor reactions from people in naturally heightened states of emotion in the aftermath of a terrorist attack.

I think this is right. Better to just say "we condemn attacks on journalists, full stop" or whatever the topic is, and move on. Until the point where antifa becomes better defined as a specific organization with some kind of centralized leadership and verifiable membership, the label will just be a red herring.

Edit: though I do think something like attacking journalists needs to be taken seriously and should be addressed, even if just internally, by whatever kind of leadership a given protest movement has. If people who do that kind of thing believe they have the implicit go-ahead from their peers, these things can escalate unnecessarily.