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[moomoo14]

Using violent means to fight against people with disgusting views is just going to escalate into more violence. What will happen is people will start thinking, "the left stands with this violent Antifa group? Maybe the alt-right isn't so bad..." and violence from the alt-right will be used as an excuse to fend off against violence from the left with Antifa. It's already happening.

The alt-right is inherently racist and evil. Don't give them any excuse to look like they're the victim. That includes using acts of violence to fight back. Because then they can say that the left started it. It was a strategy used by Nazis in Germany before Hitler's tenure as Furer, where the Reds (those in the communist KPD party) increasingly used violence to fight back against the rise of Nazism, and it just perpetuated the popularity of it all. Because even though Nazism was and is evil, it had certain appeals to people that may have sided with the Reds instead (such as appeals to Nationalism and worker's rights) that forced them to choose a side due to the violent encounters, when Nazis shouldn't have been a side to begin with.

The same is going to happen if violence keeps being used. You'll see more and more headlines about the alt-right. The attention will keep getting people to see them, and if they are shown as victims, people will join them without realizing the core beliefs of what the alt-right stand for: the disgusting and un-American view that white culture is supreme and that all advancement in the world was made by white people, and that white people are naturally more intelligent than those of other races. We do not want to be giving them any more attention than they already have, because then they will just keep growing. And that will just make this even worse.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Truth is that Neogaf has a massive blindspot when it comes to this lot purely because they're first on the scene to demonstrate against Trump.

They're a bunch of uppity marxist/anarchist bellends who complicate matters for people who are there to peacefully protest or to try and find some kind of political resolution.

No they are not as intrinsically evil as the fascists but they are far from the answer to the problems of the modern world, and in many cases their personal beliefs are also pretty abhorrent, particularly when it comes to israel and jews.

I see based on the above that they're now also trying to co-opt historic resistances against racism and fascism.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Na = national
Zi = socialist

Therefore, nazis are socialists 🤔

(Seriously, people, you're better than that.)

 

[Real Hero]

if someone things anarchism is just smashing things they are an idiot and should read a book

 

[Takuhi]

Man, whoever decided the abbreviation "antifa" was a good idea is an idiot. It took a movement that had a clear, positive meaning that most anyone could agree with and turned it into something mysterious and confusing that Fox news hosts can make sound foreign and nefarious, like "fatwa."

Did the antifascists really embrace this as a way to avoid having to say one extra syllable, or is this right-wing branding that they were too naive to fight against?

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

I've never supported the destruction of property of the average citizen. I'm less bothered by the destruction of property of the bourgeoisie and of government property.




I bet you two don't even know what modern communism is.

Yeah proles have it bad enough already without 'comrades' setting their cars on fire.

 

[CortexVortex]

Who are the Antifa?
Better than their counterpart for sure, but, unfortunately, they're pieces of shit for the most part.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Violent extremists.

 

[manfestival]

ANTI-FA sounds sooo much better then AN-TIFA which is correct pronunciation.

I like to pronounce it A-NTIFA

 

[jstripes]

I've noticed Trumpers have been spreading a brand new alt-fact that Antifa stands for Anti First Amendment.

 

[Alkastelca]

Violent extremists.

.

 

[Ullus]

Bunch of cunts, the EU ones.

 

[smisk]

I don't consider myself anarchist or communist (maybe dem soc) but I'd still like to get involved with one of these groups.
I watched a documentary last night about french anti-skinhead groups that sprung up around punk rock in the 80s, wish I had been born back then..

 

[jem0208]

Using violent means to fight against people with disgusting views is just going to escalate into more violence. What will happen is people will start thinking, "the left stands with this violent Antifa group? Maybe the alt-right isn't so bad..." and violence from the alt-right will be used as an excuse to fend off against violence from the left with Antifa. It's already happening.

The alt-right is inherently racist and evil. Don't give them any excuse to look like they're the victim. That includes using acts of violence to fight back. Because then they can say that the left started it. It was a strategy used by Nazis in Germany before Hitler's tenure as Furer, where the Reds (those in the communist KPD party) increasingly used violence to fight back against the rise of Nazism, and it just perpetuated the popularity of it all. Because even though Nazism was and is evil, it had certain appeals to people that may have sided with the Reds instead (such as appeals to Nationalism and worker's rights) that forced them to choose a side due to the violent encounters, when Nazis shouldn't have been a side to begin with.

The same is going to happen if violence keeps being used. You'll see more and more headlines about the alt-right. The attention will keep getting people to see them, and if they are shown as victims, people will join them without realizing the core beliefs of what the alt-right stand for: the disgusting and un-American view that white culture is supreme and that all advancement in the world was made by white people, and that white people are naturally more intelligent than those of other races. We do not want to be giving them any more attention than they already have, because then they will just keep growing. And that will just make this even worse.

Yup.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Were antifa responsible for gently laying down the trashcans during Trump's inauguration? That was hilarious.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

They were formerly known as the allied forces during WW2

 

[Z3M0G]

Using violent means to fight against people with disgusting views is just going to escalate into more violence. What will happen is people will start thinking, "the left stands with this violent Antifa group? Maybe the alt-right isn't so bad..." and violence from the alt-right will be used as an excuse to fend off against violence from the left with Antifa. It's already happening.

The alt-right is inherently racist and evil. Don't give them any excuse to look like they're the victim. That includes using acts of violence to fight back. Because then they can say that the left started it. It was a strategy used by Nazis in Germany before Hitler's tenure as Furer, where the Reds (those in the communist KPD party) increasingly used violence to fight back against the rise of Nazism, and it just perpetuated the popularity of it all. Because even though Nazism was and is evil, it had certain appeals to people that may have sided with the Reds instead (such as appeals to Nationalism and worker's rights) that forced them to choose a side due to the violent encounters, when Nazis shouldn't have been a side to begin with.

The same is going to happen if violence keeps being used. You'll see more and more headlines about the alt-right. The attention will keep getting people to see them, and if they are shown as victims, people will join them without realizing the core beliefs of what the alt-right stand for: the disgusting and un-American view that white culture is supreme and that all advancement in the world was made by white people, and that white people are naturally more intelligent than those of other races. We do not want to be giving them any more attention than they already have, because then they will just keep growing. And that will just make this even worse.

CBC radio had an interview the other morning with an ex-Nazi organizer who now heads an organization (called "Life After Hate") for people who give up the Nazi mentality... and he explained that the worst thing you can do is start attacking Nazi's, because that's the fuel to their fire... they relish in it... it empowers them... it is exactly what they want.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...-isis-says-former-white-supremacist-1.4246815

 

[Geist-]

On the one hand I agree with their stated goals.

On the other hand, many antifa groups harass innocent people because of misinformation.

So I judge on a group by group basis. During Charlottesville, it was pretty obvious who the Nazis were, so Charlottesville antifa definitely deserves props for helping the counter protests.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I'm antifa because who doesn't hate nazi's,white supremacists?

'Moderates' who would rather understand them better while people are dying, for one.

 

[Temeculan3000]

Why can't we:

1. Support some of the things antifa does and recognize they are on the forefront of resisting modern day Nazi's etc..
2. Realize they aren't super organized with a single set of goals.
3. Not support all of their actions or ideologies.
4. Not consider yourself antifa, while still supporting the work they do.
5. Not dismiss everything they do just because some are anarchists, communists, or anti-capitalists.
6. Criticize them when they are in fact wrong.
7. Not equate them to the hate groups on the right.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Since we're in to equations.

Govern equals Control
Ment equals Mind

We're all being mind controlled.

Which goes back to the images. White dudes free for beating a black man. Black lady arrested for putting a rope around a statue.

Government, remember the equation, wants you to believe black is always wrong.

I don't have disdain for anti-government types. Government is not a saint. They often cause more harm than good. It's time some of liberal GAF realize this.

As for anti-communists. The whole fucking planet is a commune. Everything everyone does is connected. Stop pretending communism is bad. It's life. Deal with it. You're no better than the Nazis in wanting to live in a bubble. The only bubble is Earth. It's a commune.

 

[The Wart]

I'm not saying widespread violence, just violence against nazis.

Let's be real, there would be massive backlash from the usual right-wing regardless. Just look at how they've portrayed BLM. All it takes is one person to damage property or hurt someone and the entire movement is vilified. That is to be expected.

If we're worried about massive backlash from people on the left for attacking nazis, I don't think they were ever on our side (or left) to begin with.

So, what exactly do you mean when you say escalation is inevitable? Repeated violent clashes across the country that cause large amounts of injury and cause significant property damage is what I inferred you meant.

The vast majority of the country is basically indifferent and is at best vaguely aware of these talking points, even if they lean republican and occasionally regurgitate those talking points. At the end of the day they basically don't care as long as it doesn't affect them. If they start thinking antifa is a threat to their health or material well-being, then look forward to Trump's popularity soaring and Jeff Sessions having a much freer hand to crack down on activist organizations. As I said, right now literal Nazis are unpopular and antifa is basically an unknown to most people so if they stick to behavior like in Charlottesville, I think it will be fine. If a lot of antifa groups jump the gun and are perceived as escalating faster than the neonazis and white supremacists, then there will be problems.

I worry that some people are fetishizing the opportunity for violence, and they will enact it under the antifa label. We had someone in a previous thread talking about wanting to track down nazis, round them up, and shoot them in the head. I do not want that person organizing an antifa group.

 

[D i Z]

It's insane to me to see people advocate use of violence in these situations. It's like they don't know conflict escalation is a thing. Do you people also advocate for vigilante justice?



Checking the rise of far-right or fascist groups is not solely possible with the use of violence. It's almost like we have a ton of other options to do it.

Fucking. Nazi's.

 

[Otnopolit]

On the one hand I agree with their stated goals.

On the other hand, many antifa groups harass innocent people because of misinformation.

So I judge on a group by group basis. During Charlottesville, it was pretty obvious who the Nazis were, so Charlottesville antifa definitely deserves props for helping the counter protests.

This is what makes groups or political movements complicated. Because of lack of leadership, we have nobody from Antifa coming out against members that aren't doing the right thing. So instead, the group gets painted in a way that makes them look like arachists or rioters. Antifa is new to me, so I'm trying to wrap my head around their image and the work they have done.

 

[Kinyou]

"Everyone is antifa as long as you hate fascism" is a really dumb statement that muddies the waters around a movement that's relatively new to US politics, so I'd encourage people to stop dropping that one.

Not everyone who supports a republic is a Republican. Not everyone who likes living is pro-life. Not everyone who likes living in a society is a socialist. Not everyone opposed to fascism is antifa.

I think antifa is an important force for good, but their tactics can be criticized on a case-by-case basis. But their role in Charlottesville is 100% "good shit" as far as I know.

Pretty much where I'm at

"property matters more than human lives and civil rights"

What human lives were they saving at the G20?
You can be in support of what they did in Charlottesville and condemn what they did in Hamburg

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I'd rather put them be socially ostracized than hit with baseball bats.

They were. Ask Heather Heyer how well that worked. Oh, right, Nazis drew first blood by murdering her.

 

[Glass Shark]

It’s really good to see way more people on this forum in support of punching Nazis than there were 6 months ago

Still too many “I can’t condone violence in any form” centrist handwringers though

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

So how can anyone in a democracy be against these guys ?

....because they have vandalized, rioted and are totally anti capitalist and support communist ideology. In principle, they are morally superior to neo nazi's/white supremacists/racists, but their actions aren't too different and they're just another violent collectivist/totalitarian movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s1c1n-eZiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbS4daSF9M

This is a small example of what they caused in Hamburg with their demonstrations and this isn't the only case in Europe. I'm for groups who stand up against white supremacy agenda, especially as a immigrant and person of color, but I can't fully get behind Antifa. They only made their case look terrible in the case above. Read up on marxist ideology and how big of a killer it is if instilled in a society before you take arms with pro communist groups.

 

[Lowmelody]

CBC radio had an interview the other morning with an ex-Nazi organizer who now heads an organization (called "Life After Hate") for people who give up the Nazi mentality... and he explained that the worst thing you can do is start attacking Nazi's, because that's the fuel to their fire... they relish in it... it empowers them... it is exactly what they want.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...-isis-says-former-white-supremacist-1.4246815

And yet Hitler himself said this

Only one danger could have jeopardised this development – if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas, and not offered any resistance. Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.

 

[Crosseyes]

Because of the tacit approval Trump's administration has given the alt-right Antifa is going to be responsible for saving a lot of innocent lives as evil grows more emboldened.

In a just world we could trust the police and national guard to act to suppress and persecute evil that threatens us within our borders but we're at risk of them defending and joining the nazis than fighting them.

The stories from Charlottesville make me proud of brave citizens standing between the nazis and Jewish gatherings, black faith leaders and other protestors who were defenseless by themselves. Without Antifa or police response there would have been a lot more blood of good people spilled in the streets.

 

[JWiLL]

They were formerly known as the allied forces during WW2

Let's not associate this modern day Antifa with actual heroes, please.

 

[captive]

It's insane to me to see people advocate use of violence in these situations. It's like they don't know conflict escalation is a thing. Do you people also advocate for vigilante justice?

I just don't understand. "Both sides" and "they started it!" don't apply when one side are fucking Nazis. Kthnx.


Last weekend counter protests worked, if you check various white supremacy places, they're scared, the only thing they're happy about is Trumps complete inability to do the right thing. They have people saying lay low. Almost all their rallys in support of that stupid googler have been cancelled for fear of violence.

 

[poppedcollar69]

Maybe people would get it more if all they'd do was fight nazis

'Smash Nazis, not windows' somebody put this on a shirt

 

[HellforLeather]

Who are the Antifa?
Better than their counterpart for sure, but, unfortunately, they're pieces of shit for the most part.

But their name is ANTI- FAcist! and fascism is BAD so they cant be bad people.

Spoiler

This is seriously some of the reasoning Ive seen in this thread

A vigilante group accountable to no one, who deems who is worthy of being on the receiving end of violence and who isnt, is not a good thing.

.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I'd rather put them be socially ostracized than hit with baseball bats.

They already are. It doesn't stop them. By going out into the streets, marching, and chanting Nazi rhetoric they're trying to dig themselves out of the socially ostracized hole we put them in and gain followers, momentum, and courage to further their cause.

 

[Crosseyes]

Let's not associate this modern day Antifa with actual heroes, please.

They are absolutely worthy of the same association with heroes because they act like them.

Strong and brave patriots who are the first to stand up and tell evil, "Over our dead bodies." Even when that evil is willing to go through with it.

 

[Real Hero]

But their name is ANTI- FAcist! and fascism is BAD so they cant be bad people.

Spoiler

This is seriously some of the reasoning Ive seen in this thread

A vigilante group accountable to no one, who deems who is worthy of being on the receiving end of violence and who isnt, is not a good thing.

.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea must be real confusing for these people

 

[The Wart]

'Smash Nazis, not windows' somebody put this on a shirt

I don't know if this is sarcasm but I would wear the shit out of that shirt.

 

[Not]

Living through this, I'm starting to understand the pacifist movement in the US during WWII really well.

White comfort.

 

[Larkoz]

I don't know in the US, but in France the issue is that they're inherently close to anarchist/anti-capitalism circles, so basically during demonstrations they can go completely berserk and anything valuable can be a potential target: stores, banks, bus shelters, cars, and obviously the authorities. In 2016 they even attempted to burn two police officers alive in their car. They should stick with the "anti-fascist" part, like in Charlottesville.

 

[Principate]

White Rose, Rosenstrasse resistance, Norweigian civil disobedience to Nazification of their education system, and several other examples of it exist in history. There are also other high profile nonviolent revolutions that worked to bring down extremist governments in history. It's almost like it HAS happened in the past, imagine that.

Norweigian civil disobedience didn't actually stop the war come on now. You cannot use that example with a straight face. If the violent method had failed. Imperial Japan would still exist and the Nazi's would rule Europe.

 

[D i Z]

Living through this, I'm starting to understand the pacifist movement in the US during WWII really well.

White comfort.

When there something strange in your neighborhood, who you gonna call?

 

[zethren]

A little bit.

Don't get me wrong, if I have to use violence to prevent a direct attack I certainly will. But I'm not going to affiliate with a group that actively promotes violence in general. Maybe I'm naive but I like to believe we can do better than that.

What form of nonviolence is and has been working against Nazis and white supremacists? Nonviolence won't work as they are starting to feel even more emboldened, because our worthless leadership won't outright condemn them or any ties they have with him. People who are marginalized and threatened by these nazi and fascist groups don't even have the support of their president right now, but Antifa has defended them the entire time. Antifa has saved lives, and will save many more.

A nonviolent philosophy in life is admirable, and I think in more normal times it's more doable. But anyone who is outright against Antifa doesn't get the whole picture here.

 

[The Wart]

I just don't understand. "Both sides" and "they started it!" don't apply when one side are fucking Nazis. Kthnx.


Last weekend counter protests worked, if you check various white supremacy places, they're scared, the only thing they're happy about is Trumps complete inability to do the right thing. They have people saying lay low. Almost all their rallys in support of that stupid googler have been cancelled for fear of violence.

Just because one side is bad doesn't mean everything anyone associated with an opposing party does is good? I mean, this isn't that complicated.

I think a major problem is that different people have very different interpretations of what antifa "violence" means. Last weekend the violence was largely defensive and asserting their right to (vigorously and belligerently) counterprotest. I think most everyone in this thread is fine with this. Punching Richard Spencer lead to no actual injury, was targeted at a very specific high profile public figure, and made for an amazing gif, so that's gonna elicit some tut-tuts but not much else. Going to the house of some guy flying a condederate flag and putting him in the hospital? That I would condemn, but I think there are people in this thread who would applaud it, and I find that concerning.

 

[RRockman]

The Antifa sounds super cool. Much better name than Nazi for a group.

 

[Taker666]

They are absolutely worthy of the same association with heroes because they act like them.

Strong and brave patriots who are the first to stand up and tell evil, "Over our dead bodies." Even when that evil is willing to go through with it.

Sure...

..tell that to the two journalists who were physically attacked by Anifa..purely for filming at Charlottesville.

I mean the female reporter for The Hill who was covering the counterprotests and was punched in the face for her trouble (despite informing them she was press)...will sure be thankful Antifa are around to protect her..


..as will the CBS photo-journalist who Antifa hit around the head, who needed 4 staples for the wound they created and has been off with concussion since the attack..I'm sure he is happy for their protection as well.

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/897981824512688128

 

[HellforLeather]

Sure...

..tell that to the two journalists who were physically attacked by Anifa..purely for filming at Charlottesville.

I mean the female reporter for The Hill who was covering the counterprotests and was punched in the face for her trouble (despite informing them she was press)...will sure be thankful Antifa are around to protect her..


..as was the CBS photo-journalist who Antifa hit around the head, who needed 4 staples for the wound they created and has been off with concussion since the attack..I'm sure he is happy for their protection as well.

Yeah but those store fronts in Berkeley had it coming!

 

[Prax]

I think antifa presence would not be so huge or a reluctant necessity if general society/government systems did their jobs right and protected people from rampant abuse.

If the government didn't implicitly support/perpetuate white supremacy or police brutality or extreme economic discrepancies, etc., I don't think antifa presence would be such a nuisance.

 

[JWiLL]

They are absolutely worthy of the same association with heroes because they act like them.

Strong and brave patriots who are the first to stand up and tell evil, "Over our dead bodies." Even when that evil is willing to go through with it.

You should probably read more in to what a lot of these modern day masked "Antifa" do before you say they're worthy of being placed alongside Allied fighters in World War 2 who stormed beaches through artillery fire to fight actual Nazis.

I don't even know why this needs to be said.

 

[Nafai1123]

So, what exactly do you mean when you say escalation is inevitable? Repeated violent clashes across the country that cause large amounts of injury and cause significant property damage is what I inferred you meant.

The vast majority of the country is basically indifferent and is at best vaguely aware of these talking points, even if they lean republican and occasionally regurgitate those talking points. At the end of the day they basically don't care as long as it doesn't affect them. If they start thinking antifa is a threat to their health or material well-being, then look forward to Trump's popularity soaring and Jeff Sessions having a much freer hand to crack down on activist organizations. As I said, right now literal Nazis are unpopular and antifa is basically an unknown to most people so if they stick to behavior like in Charlottesville, I think it will be fine. If a lot of antifa groups jump the gun and are perceived as escalating faster than the neonazis and white supremacists, then there will be problems.

I worry that some people are fetishizing the opportunity for violence, and they will enact it under the antifa label. We had someone in a previous thread talking about wanting to track down nazis, round them up, and shoot them in the head. I do not want that person organizing an antifa group.

I completely agree with you here. I think we just need to face reality. Fetishizing the opportunity for violence is already happening on both sides. You have nazis wanting to stomp communists and you have antifa wanting to stomp nazis. That's why I think escalating violence is inevitable.

The moral equivalence will never been equal though. People opposing nazis are never going to be "just as bad" as nazis. If we look at how this could come to a logical conclusion, I believe that the government will have to act, possibly against both sides, which would still be an overall win in combating the nazi movement. As it stands now, our government is willing to do fuck-all to combat nazis. That needs to change, and as we've already seen with Charlottesville, it can. Just look at the Illinois senate. They just passed a measure that would categorize neo-nazis as a terrorist organization.