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[Griss]

On the topic of what Griss is saying (a lot of which I agree with) and what I was saying earlier...

I deal with a lot of troubled kids at my work. Many often have some sort of mental health issue, anything and everything from depression to ADHD, Tourette's, everything in between. A common theme is that they feel isolated, that they're being judged by their peers and failing to measure up, that they're stuck. The tactics people use to psychologically deal with these issues can be really extreme. A lot of these kids are looking for acceptance somewhere and aren't finding it, even sometimes from their parents, and that's before the age they start valuing the acceptance of others above that of their parents.

It's the most isolated kids that I often see drawing nazi symbols, saying racist things to get a reaction, and more. And who is giving them acceptance and attention?

I'm not saying it's easy, or that it's fair, or that it's even rational. But we're not dealing with the rational here, we're dealing with the ego, we're dealing with the fact that perception is reality.

Great comment, absolutely echoes what I've seen in a number of cases. In particular, my cousin is 18/19 years old and has really bad ADHD, possibly Aspergers. He has been isolated and shunned his whole life by his peers since early childhood, it is a bit of a tragedy. And over the last three years, he, unfortunately, appears to have become a highly misogynistic neo-nazi sympathiser.

And there is no way for him to 'better himself' beyond the work he already does with his therapist and tutor. I've seen him trying for years. The kid fucking tried, and he tried hard. Eventually he just gave up and turned to a place where people would tell him "You're alright man. It's not your fault. People don't want to be friends with you because they're brainwashed libtards. Girls don't like you because they're sluts and you're not rich. It's not you, it's them. But all that pain you feel, all that pain they caused you... we're going to pay it back tenfold. You belong here."

And it fucking resonates with him, resonates like a bell. The entire family is worried about him, to the extent that his mother moved the entirely family across the atlantic just so he could get better help. But will it be enough? Who knows?

What's the solution there? Over the course of years my family has had none for this poor kid, and now very soon he's gonna be society's problem.

 

[LionPride]

If you let your loneliness and inability to function as a person turn you into an asshole who blames women and minorities for everything...you had other issues

 

[Dio]

What I found interesting is how many people in these communities are expressing interest in becoming a woman, because they perceive that they will have a really easy life where people throw money at them and wait on them hand and foot. They see female twitch streamers getting $10,000 thrown at them by a random oil barons son in donations and think, I sure wish I was getting that sort of attention.

Note: this has nothing to do with being trans, I've just seen so many posts over the years in these places where it's like "I wish I was a cute girl so my life would be easier and I wouldn't have to do anything."

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's the most isolated kids that I often see drawing nazi symbols, saying racist things to get a reaction, and more. And who is giving them acceptance and attention?

The president of the USA?

 

[Griss]

If you let your loneliness and inability to function as a person turn you into an asshole who blames women and minorities for everything...you had other issues

No, I don't think so. If you suffer from loneliness and can't 'function as a person'... that's more than enough to turn someone to any mode of though that would offer some kind of pain relief. And by pain relief I mean relief from guilt and self-hatred. Which is why people project their failings on to others... to relieve themselves of the guilt and self-hatred they feel for not measuring up.

People aren't born racist, facist. It festers when people are isolated and desperate, even in previously good people.

What I found interesting is how many people in these communities are expressing interest in becoming a woman, because they perceive that they will have a really easy life where people throw money at them and wait on them hand and foot. They see female twitch streamers getting $10,000 thrown at them by a random oil barons son in donations and think, I sure wish I was getting that sort of attention.

Well, it's the classic 'Girls are dumb at math' thing, isn't it?

They see 'Chad' walking down the road with a hot girl... "Man that one guy has it good. So easy to be Chad."
They see some girl pulling in 10k on Twitch or whatnot "Man girls have it good. So easy to be a girl."

It requires a seriously blinkered perception of reality - being an ugly woman is harder in many ways than an ugly man - but many of these people are too stupid and poorly educated to assess situations properly.

I do think a lot of young men are affected by the fact that girls come into their sexual power earlier than men. That two-year or so gap leads a lot of boys to feel inferior to girls of their own age, and for some guys that feeling persists. Feelings of inadequacy and jealousy, and ultimately hatred can be the result.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Agreed 100%, humans (including ourselves) are far less rational than we seem. Perception literally means the brain's reality as well.

It doesn't only apply to cases on the fringe where people don't conform. If anything those cases just show how unreliable the perceptions of the world that everyone has are. Like you can be happy that you have a normal conformist brain that lets you get along with almost anyone right up until the point where it leads you into one of those places where that doesn't help at all.

 

[Derwind]

Let's not obfuscate the real issue, it's not just that some of these people can be sexually frustrated (although that can be a factor), it's more to do with all these guys growing up in a society that empowers them and now that a shift in the order of things has started to take shape over the last twenty years, some of these guys feel like lashing out.

I say fuck them and hope their every waking day is miserable if they feel like the empowerment of other communities is upsetting.

I will never coddle these assholes as some misunderstood horndogs. Fuck them and everything they stand for.

What I found interesting is how many people in these communities are expressing interest in becoming a woman, because they perceive that they will have a really easy life where people throw money at them and wait on them hand and foot. They see female twitch streamers getting $10,000 thrown at them by a random oil barons son in donations and think, I sure wish I was getting that sort of attention.

The irony being the level of curating some of those women go to cultivate a persona that attracts such incomparable amount of donations is not easy at all. And how rare that can be.

And the security risks involved when you put yourself out there like that.

And on top of all the shit you have to deal with as a woman in your day to day life.

What a petty way of thinking to be frank.

 

[Fuchsdh]

What I found interesting is how many people in these communities are expressing interest in becoming a woman, because they perceive that they will have a really easy life where people throw money at them and wait on them hand and foot. They see female twitch streamers getting $10,000 thrown at them by a random oil barons son in donations and think, I sure wish I was getting that sort of attention.

Note: this has nothing to do with being trans, I've just seen so many posts over the years in these places where it's like "I wish I was a cute girl so my life would be easier and I wouldn't have to do anything."

The grass is always greener, etc. Easy to focus on the ways women have it easier and ignore the ways they clearly don't. Also gets into circular reasoning where the only reason those women can get that money is because there are thirsty men willing to pay, so who exactly is at fault here?

 

[Kumquat]

It's almost like a society based of toxic masculinity and patriarchy might not be all it's cracked up to be.

Throw in religious and political double standards, "don't ask, don't tell" methodologies in regards to many aspects of puberty, teenage development, and education, and it seems like people are going out the gate in a rough spot.

But no, let's ban Muslims and criminalize Marijuana. That's gotta be it.



Exactly. I mentioned it in the Black History Month thread, but I'm West Indian. By race I'm a mix of a lot of different minority groups, and my estranged father was Native American and Irish, so I'm really a mix of everything except SEA.

But my skin tone is merely a light tan, so much so that in photos I look white basically.

The amount of shit I hear that I have to call out is astonishing. There's an odd level of comfort, like I'm "one of the good ones" or something. SMH.



I understand your sentiments and see how it can be frustrating, but you do understand why people can be upset that there seems to be a trend of White people "sticking up" for other White people even if their actions are similar to other incidents caused by religious radicals?

Like, not having sex is not an excuse for murder and hatred. Black children "just need fathers", whereas White children "just need to get laid" seems like both a horrible set of stereotypes and a gross generalization that ignores the root causes in an attempt to seem concerned.



Exactly. All that shows me is if you can interact with someone in a positive manner just because you assume they're of a race you "like", then why the fuck can't you just treat everyone that way. What the fuck is your problem.

Heck, I've had people go from treating me nicely to being more antagonistic once they find out I'm West Indian.

ALSO, since this post ain't long enough, everyone saying that sex is a "BIG DEAL" for kids and is thus the reason for these incidents, let's not ignore Toxic Masculinity and how much it has affected U.S. culture.

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/06/toxic-masculinity/

I'm a very weird half and half. I am half Ashkenazi and half Scotts-Irish. My brother got the Ashkenazi looks where as I am the spitting image of my dad's mom with blonde hair and green eyes.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sex is incredibly serious, incredibly important. Young men put a tremendous amount of value on being able to get laid and it makes 100% sense to me why they do so.

Reasons why the ability to get laid is important:
1. People need affection and companionship to be happy. Romantic affection is gated behind the ability to get laid and satisfy a partner.
2. Do you dream of starting a family one day? Won't happen if you never get laid.
3. Your respect in a male group will be damaged by this issue, leading to self-esteem issues. If that group rejects you your social circle can crash around you leading to isolation. Your friends can end up excluding you from mixed-gender events if you can't get laid - it becomes awkward for the guys who are, and hinders their efforts. I've seen this first-hand from high school to two colleges. That guy people are happy to have around unless they're going somewhere to party or get laid, in which case he doesn't get an invite.
4. Your sense of physical self-worth will be damaged by not being able to get laid, leading to body image issues.
5. Having a girlfriend is often a guy's best way of being exposed to female circles of friends. Without this continuing exposure, guys can fail to understand and sympathise with girls, and start to 'other' them on these toxic sites online. No, that's not a good excuse, but yes I believe it happens.

And so on and so forth. Sex is a tremendously important part of human life. Someone who has never had any success in that area is naturally bound to be extremely frustrated, upset and demoralised. Entitlement has nothing to do with it. Nobody has the right to get laid - and I really believe that young men understand that - but that doesn't stop it being extremely upsetting for those who can't.

The luxury of saying "sex isn't that great, and not terribly important" is one enjoyed by people who have enough experience of it to know that. Those who don't have such experience cannot know such things, and to them it appears to be a massive gaping absence in their lives, one that can cause crippling self-doubt, social anxiety, depression.

A high-school friend of mine killed himself when he was 19 in college because of lack of success with women. He was successful in every other way - a star athlete in rugby, even, and beloved by his friends - but he was somewhat ugly and nervous around girls and the issue grew and grew and grew until it dominated his thoughts and he became depressed. That caused a spiral he could not recover from. I will never forget it, I can't forget it. I suppose some guys take that pain and violence and turn it outwards instead of inwards.

There's no easy solution to sexually frustrated young men. I don't think legalised prostitution would help much because you still have the self-esteem issues (I have to pay for it - I'm a loser), you still have a majority of young men who wouldn't be able to afford it and you still have an absence of affection, which is what I'm convinced people need for their mental health, and was the thing my friend was desperate for. Affection.

More education and better mental health care would be a start but there are always going to be these angry isolated dudes, I fear.

EDIT: Most of the guys I knew in college who couldn't get laid went on to have little to no success with women in the years following. I do believe that if you can't figure it out during your 3 to 4 years surrounded by friendly young women then you're in trouble long-term. I know plenty of college friends who are still virgins 13 years on from then. People are married with kids but these guys live alone. I can't see how the ability to get laid could have more of an effect on your life, really.

Yes, this is commonly used a reason ISIS is so easily able to recruit young men. And personally, I think it makes sense, though it's only a small part of the picture.

The other part is that people want to feel like they have a stake in something. A stake in society, a stake in some group. A cause. A way to make your shitty life meaningful.

ISIS offers that, plus the chance to get laid. So they catch a lot of frustrated young men that way and brainwash them.

Looking back at these young white guys getting radicalised, what strikes me more than the sexual frustration is the lack of a group, of a cause. Each minority in america sees itself as part of a new generation pushing towards greater equality, and therein lies their meaning. Women, too, have this sense that they are breaking boundaries and progressing towards some brighter day. You can read any liberal paper and see articles from minority or women authors rallying their peers towards some cause or another - and it's a great thing. It gives life meaning.

But young white men have a total vacuum of that kind of in-built meaning. There's no group identity, no struggle to win, no battles to be fought. Is it any surprise that the angrier and more isolated among them have invented causes to rage against? Whether they are completely fucking meaningless (ethics in games journalism) or utterly terrifying and dangerous (white nationalism), these dudes don't belong anywhere, and they create these groups to belong.

The obvious reply will be 'White guys don't belong anywhere because they belong everywhere - it's their fucking country!' I get that reply, but that's not what it feels like to some useless broke no-talent 19-year old on the ground. He just feels isolated and without meaning. He sees all these minorities rallying for justice and thinks he wishes he had a cause like that. A group to rally with. He's actually envious. And he picks up the torch, finds some friends... and goes off to fight those groups, since the only battle for a white guy in America to fight in his own name is against the loss of status and privilege.

You're right, the stable, intelligent people who can't get laid tend to end up fine. The ones with family support, or who get a good job, or have some stake in something to keep them going... these guys end up okay. (Well, okay from society's perspective, maybe they're not happy themselves.)

But there are a lot of impressionable people out there. A lot of stupid people. A sucker born every minute, etc. A lot of isolated people, no friends, no support, desperate for any harbour in a storm etc.

And a lot of these people, if they were to be led down one path, would be decent citizens. But in their search for tips on how to pick up women or to express their heartbreak and frustration after being shot down (again) they find these communities, and they become prey, basically. They can show up disagreeing with most of it but thinking "at least these guys are like me, they suffer like me, I'm not alone" and a couple of months later have been radicalised into the most virulent misogynist or white supremacist or what have you.

I know from personal experience that when I suffered depression in college that I was in a very vulnerable state, and while I didn't blame my depression or isolation on anyone else god damn it I wanted to. I wanted to really badly, to alleviate the pain. There was a lot of lonliness and isolation in me that turned into a lot of hate.

I am very fortunate to have a loving family, one I was able to turn to for help. I was also fortunate enough to have the intelligence (and empathy) to know that my thoughts were both wrong and stupid that I needed help. And I overcame my depression and never walked down the wrong road, never gave in to hate. But I've been there at the crossroads, at the weakest moment, and I can totally understand how someone else less fortunate than I am may have found himself drawn to a negative support group in lieu of missing friends or family and been suckered into this bizarre world of hatred.

I don't think all guys involved in this start off bad, just like I don't think all muslim terrorists were destined to be killers or criminals. The brainwashing of the vulnerable is a very real thing.

No, I don't think so. If you suffer from loneliness and can't 'function as a person'... that's more than enough to turn someone to any mode of though that would offer some kind of pain relief. And by pain relief I mean relief from guilt and self-hatred. Which is why people project their failings on to others... to relieve themselves of the guilt and self-hatred they feel for not measuring up.

People aren't born racist, facist. It festers when people are isolated and desperate, even in previously good people.



Well, it's the classic 'Girls are dumb at math' thing, isn't it?

They see 'Chad' walking down the road with a hot girl... "Man that one guy has it good. So easy to be Chad."
They see some girl pulling in 10k on Twitch or whatnot "Man girls have it good. So easy to be a girl."

It requires a seriously blinkered perception of reality - being an ugly woman is harder in many ways than an ugly man - but many of these people are too stupid and poorly educated to assess situations properly.

I do think a lot of young men are affected by the fact that girls come into their sexual power earlier than men. That two-year or so gap leads a lot of boys to feel inferior to girls of their own age, and for some guys that feeling persists. Feelings of inadequacy and jealousy, and ultimately hatred can be the result.

Good posts Griss. I was arguing some of this earlier in the topic. It obviously applies to some individuals, not every single guy, but it is part of the issue that leads to resentment/anger/frustration and tribalistic behaviour in some. Couple that with the internets ease of access to peer into many other peoples curated social lives (seemingly "perfect" FB/Twitter posts/pictures) and you end up with individuals reinforcing/stewing on resentment, hate, anger and frustration, mostly at their own lives. However, they act out these frustrations by banding together in "tribes" and spewing anger, hate and targetting people.

I left the conversations earlier but I popped back in and just wanted to say I'm glad some other posters have caught onto the genuine trends/evidence that support some of these guys behaviour/thinking (or I should say reasons for it, not support as in it's acceptable to do as they do). Of course what matters most is what we do about it next, and all I could really offer at the time was better education, notably in teenager years. Around both sex, relationships (both intimate and male bonding) and social etiquette. Some of these guys are way more introverted and socially awkward than your usual dude.

 

[ugaboga232]

It doesn't only apply to cases on the fringe where people don't conform. If anything those cases just show how unreliable the perceptions of the world that everyone has are. Like you can be happy that you have a normal conformist brain that lets you get along with almost anyone right up until the point where it leads you into one of those places where that doesn't help at all.

Well yea see the surveys of what republicans think about the world compared to reality. Also brains can change and do change in response to stress/life events/chemical intake/etc. Addicts will be the first to tell you that we aren't as in charge or as rational as we like to think.

 

[Unbounded]

If you let your loneliness and inability to function as a person turn you into an asshole who blames women and minorities for everything...you had other issues

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this.

When you're at your worst it's extremely easy to get pulled into just about anything that will accept you despite previous failings.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

There's more to it than that. You don't get intimacy or validation from a hooker.

Some hookers even pee on you and berate your penis in Russian.

 

[TCKaos]

Sex is incredibly serious, incredibly important. Young men put a tremendous amount of value on being able to get laid and it makes 100% sense to me why they do so.

Reasons why the ability to get laid is important:
1. People need affection and companionship to be happy. Romantic affection is gated behind the ability to get laid and satisfy a partner.
2. Do you dream of starting a family one day? Won't happen if you never get laid.
3. Your respect in a male group will be damaged by this issue, leading to self-esteem issues. If that group rejects you your social circle can crash around you leading to isolation. Your friends can end up excluding you from mixed-gender events if you can't get laid - it becomes awkward for the guys who are, and hinders their efforts. I've seen this first-hand from high school to two colleges. That guy people are happy to have around unless they're going somewhere to party or get laid, in which case he doesn't get an invite.
4. Your sense of physical self-worth will be damaged by not being able to get laid, leading to body image issues.
5. Having a girlfriend is often a guy's best way of being exposed to female circles of friends. Without this continuing exposure, guys can fail to understand and sympathise with girls, and start to 'other' them on these toxic sites online. No, that's not a good excuse, but yes I believe it happens.

And so on and so forth. Sex is a tremendously important part of human life. Someone who has never had any success in that area is naturally bound to be extremely frustrated, upset and demoralised. Entitlement has nothing to do with it. Nobody has the right to get laid - and I really believe that young men understand that - but that doesn't stop it being extremely upsetting for those who can't.

The luxury of saying "sex isn't that great, and not terribly important" is one enjoyed by people who have enough experience of it to know that. Those who don't have such experience cannot know such things, and to them it appears to be a massive gaping absence in their lives, one that can cause crippling self-doubt, social anxiety, depression.

A high-school friend of mine killed himself when he was 19 in college because of lack of success with women. He was successful in every other way - a star athlete in rugby, even, and beloved by his friends - but he was somewhat ugly and nervous around girls and the issue grew and grew and grew until it dominated his thoughts and he became depressed. That caused a spiral he could not recover from. I will never forget it, I can't forget it. I suppose some guys take that pain and violence and turn it outwards instead of inwards.

There's no easy solution to sexually frustrated young men. I don't think legalised prostitution would help much because you still have the self-esteem issues (I have to pay for it - I'm a loser), you still have a majority of young men who wouldn't be able to afford it and you still have an absence of affection, which is what I'm convinced people need for their mental health, and was the thing my friend was desperate for. Affection.

More education and better mental health care would be a start but there are always going to be these angry isolated dudes, I fear.

EDIT: Most of the guys I knew in college who couldn't get laid went on to have little to no success with women in the years following. I do believe that if you can't figure it out during your 3 to 4 years surrounded by friendly young women then you're in trouble long-term. I know plenty of college friends who are still virgins 13 years on from then. People are married with kids but these guys live alone. I can't see how the ability to get laid could have more of an effect on your life, really.

This plays an even bigger role because over the last decade fewer and fewer men have been able to have sex because of the advent of online dating and, more recently, hook-up apps like Tinder. You look at articles like this one here talking about how millenials are having less sex than other generations and it says the following:

According to the General Social Survey, which has been used for decades to collect data from over 26,000 Americans about their social behavior, just over 6% of 20 to 24-year-olds born between 1965 and 1969 reported having no sexual partners after the age of 18, compared to more than 15% of the same age group born between 1990 and 1994. The growing tendency to not to have sex at a young age was even more pronounced in women: 5.4% of millennial women were sexually inactive, up from the 2.3% of Generation X women at that age.

The wording of the article would have you believe that women are in dire straights because 5.4% of them are sexually inactive, but that doesn't reconcile the statistic suggesting that 15% of millennials total aren't having sex. For those numbers to be compatible it would mean that around 25% of millennial men aren't having sex at all.

It's sort of like globalization - where employers are able to find more qualified employees at lower wages because of a larger pool of workers, women are able to find men they're interested in with less effort because of a larger pool of men. Meanwhile, this generates a feedback loop that hurts a number of men because women, frankly, no longer have to "settle" for them out of ease of access sexually speaking.

Which frustrates these men, which creates the culture of "gaming" women, which creates the appearance of the "cock carousel" and AWALT and MGTOW other redpill shit which creates an echochamber and leads to this feedback loop of misogyny and resentment.

 

[brianjones]

whats scary is i can relate a lot to these peoples origins.. the isolation.. the lack of a "community" .. only child, live with mom.. but instead of making me hateful its just made me suicidal

 

[CopperPuppy]

I had one friend who saw "bettering" himself as stats in an RPG. Like he would go to the gym and start learning how to play the piano not for the sake of learning a new skill or getting in better shape, but because these were pieces of ammunition to use on women. He went through that whole "nice guy" phase where he bitched about how he couldn't compete with the alpha guys and women only wanted an asshole. Needless to say, during this time he was really one of the nastiest people to be around and one of our mutual female acquaintances even tried to help him gain some insight into his dissonance, but it didn't stick. I remember that he was even asking me to introduce him to more Asian women because he thought white women were too opinionated, etc. etc (of course I didn't subject any of my friends to his craziness). Eventually, he started trying the more crazy techniques like negging and PUA techniques, again because he saw it as a "win" if he got with a girl, like it was some Mass Effect dialogue tree with the "correct response" eventually leading to sex. As far as I know, that didn't work. Add this to online communities that scapegoat the issue and don't reinforce ANY personal insight into their issue and it's a recipe for the issues we're seeing now. I lost contact with him when I moved to Chicago, but seeing his facebook posts, he clearly has gone all the way to alt-right crazytown.

I was reading a breakup thread on GAF not too long ago where some dude posted a big long pitch about doing different things to "up your mate value" or some shit out of a book that sounded a lot like what you described here. Instead of raised eyebrows it was a fucking slew of "Great post!" "Excellent post!" "Listen to so-and-so, OP." Thought it sounded weird as fuck and promptly exited the thread.

 

[ugaboga232]

whats scary is i can relate a lot to these peoples origins.. the isolation.. the lack of a "community" .. only child, live with mom.. but instead of making me hateful its just made me suicidal

This is a good if sad observation. The same factors that lead to violent radicalization also leads to suicide, depression, agoraphobia/shut-in, and other phenomena. In suicidal ideation, a big factor is feeling like you have let down society or let down those close to you. Radicalization generally involves thinking those around you and society as a whole have let you down. Two opposite responses to what is essentially social isolation (which is not good for the brain on a circuit level). All these manifestations are symptoms of a greater problem with mental health (not necessarily illness but the conditions that cause mental illness in susceptible individuals) that has arisen as a result of the internet, the modern world, and the cultures around us.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

What you've provided is an equally oversimplified argument that doesn't elucidate what you think is wrong. You can't counter a cultural issue in one country with a cultural issue in another country without some explanation as to what makes the comparison apt.

I genuinely think some people just need an "enemy" to hate, because through out most of history people had enemies that they had to watch out for. In America a lot of people are taught to hate "the other" (racial, religious, sexual minorities), because it's historically engrained in the culture. It doesn't matter if these people get laid or not, because they're still just going to be angry dudes who now happen to get laid. They see "the other" as a threat to their security and way of life. The worse off you are socially, whether it be economic or social standing, I suppose you'll be more inclined to act out.

Some of those people will naturally turn out to be batshit crazy (withdrawn narcissists tend to have a hard time getting laid period), and with easy access to guns, they're going to do some crazy ass shit. However, the vast majority just end up bitching about it on the internet with like minded people.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Honestly I think a whole lot of men including white dudes should have some reckoning of what masculinity is about.
Cause there is a fuckton of parts that people regard as masculinity that are way fucked.
Women must also recognize the harm done to women and men by our patriarchal way of life.

 

[Ultramantaro1]

Not much to add here other than to say that a lot of fellow Gaffers are making great points and this a very interesting discussion. Griss especially, well thought out and reasoned posts.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm not sure I get what you're saying but I'd be interested in hearing more.

Are you saying these people have been codependent on their parents and are lost without them? Are you using codependency in terms of their attachment to privilege in society? Do you mean they feel like they need a romantic partner to thrive and be happy - an imagined codependency?

Your use of favourite child threw me off a bit.

The bolded.

I was being terse and possibly curt. Basically drawing a similarity between being privileged in society and being a spoiled child that has less of a direct logical connection and more of an emotional one. Tbh I'm divorced from into the romantic relationship and sex stuff that is present in the latest pages of this discussion, so I apologize if I'm not really contributing anything.

On the topic of what Griss is saying (a lot of which I agree with) and what I was saying earlier...

I deal with a lot of troubled kids at my work. Many often have some sort of mental health issue, anything and everything from depression to ADHD, Tourette's, everything in between. A common theme is that they feel isolated, that they're being judged by their peers and failing to measure up, that they're stuck. The tactics people use to psychologically deal with these issues can be really extreme. A lot of these kids are looking for acceptance somewhere and aren't finding it, even sometimes from their parents, and that's before the age they start valuing the acceptance of others above that of their parents.

It's the most isolated kids that I often see drawing nazi symbols, saying racist things to get a reaction, and more. And who is giving them acceptance and attention?

I'm not saying it's easy, or that it's fair, or that it's even rational. But we're not dealing with the rational here, we're dealing with the ego, we're dealing with the fact that perception is reality.

Laugh, and the world laughs with you;
Weep, and the cunning will exploit you

whats scary is i can relate a lot to these peoples origins.. the isolation.. the lack of a "community" .. only child, live with mom.. but instead of making me hateful its just made me suicidal

This is terrible to hear and I hope things improve. I can somewhat relate to these people as well. I was homeschooled from 7th grade until college by my folks, a couple of lower middle class proto-hippies in a 450 square foot apartment. My time and energy went into nothing but reading about other cultures and religions and science and playing video games. I also have severe OCD and used to be incredibly shy. I can deeply understand how many these people ended up the way they did, but at the same time - in hindsight - I feel that one's perspective on life is completely under your own control and to some extent that isolation is a choice. Fringe ideas were attractive, fringe communities felt more accessible and inviting, but every one I gravitated towards had all these little qualities I somehow recognized as warning signs. However I also won't deny that ultimately being forced to step out and go to college probably saved my life and my sanity. My folks are great and they did the best they could with little money, but it did a number on my ability to socialize with anyone.

 

[LionPride]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this.

When you're at your worst it's extremely easy to get pulled into just about anything that will accept you despite previous failings.

If you are easily succeptable to falling for women hating or race hating ideals, there is a problem

 

[User Name Here]

I hope everyone here remembers that the issue isn't always about sex or companionship. If that were the case, the Orlando shooting wouldn't have taken place since the shooter had a loving and supporting wife. A wife who got arrested recently for obstructing justice.

 

[collige]

If you are easily succeptable to falling for women hating or race hating ideals, there is a problem

I mean, this is true, but I think just describing people as "susceptible" is oversimplifying the radicalization process.

I hope everyone here remembers that the issue isn't always about sex or companionship. If that were the case, the Orlando shooting wouldn't have taken place since the shooter had a loving and supporting wife. So much so that she got arrested for obstructing justice not too long ago.

Last I checked, this thread was about white men and online alt-right/PUA/anti-PUA communities, none of which are related to Orlando. There's already plenty of discussion about Islamic terrorism.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

It seems to be a cultural problem. Makes me wonder how much of radicalization in general is fueled by sexual insecurities and frustrations born of toxic male upbringings.

It's really horrible what some straight guys are taught regarding female sexuality. You're not owed a woman. You have to attract them, same as they have to attract you. Luckily for us guys, the scales are pretty imbalanced in our favor in this regard. Simply practice good hygiene, learn to dress yourself properly, interact with the opposite sex, be funny or charming or interesting or exciting (note the disjunctive) or reliable or ambitious or industrious or (you could really do this all day but you get the point)--do all or just even some of those things and some poor woman, somewhere, will take an interest in you.

But whatever you do, DON'T join a radical online woman-hating movement. It's... counter-productive.

 

[gfxtwin]

Maybe there is a link between lack of sex and becoming an extremist. There definitely seems to be a link between closeted homosexuality, homophobia and extremism. But IMO maybe it's not entirely productive to settle on "inability to have sex" as a root cause of becoming an extremist for several reasons.

For one, it kinda demonizes anyone who identifies as asexual. It's possible to simply not have a sex drive and still be capable of love.

And if unintended abstinence is a definitive sign that someone is an extremist, how do you explain all the nazis, ISIS, etc who are in relationships and have kids? Watching several documentaries on them and it's clear that many in those movements not only have girlfriends, but also have kids all the time. Check out any documentary on prison inmates and notice how many gang members/terrorists/white extremists are parents.

How do you explain all the rednecks with rebel flags on their trucks who hook up with girls when they're 15 and possibly start having kids soon? That's not an uncommon thing, and many of them share the same hate and backwards view on race and gender that anyone in the alt reich would. Many people like that are recruited by people by Richard Spencer.

What about sex offenders or non-offending closet pedophiles, ephebophiles, etc who are loners because...I mean, what do you do with someone like that...and choose to stay abstinent and frustrated due to not wanting to harm anyone? Do they not have a valid excuse for staying abstinent? Does that automatically make someone like that an extremist?

There's mental illness, where taking antipsychotics and antidepressants that you are required to take to function can kill your libido, etc.

Then there are autistic peeps, many with alternative sexual lifestyle having trouble finding someone else with that lifestyle, or Hikikomori-style living situations for any number of reasons that could be related to past trauma, etc.

So, while Ithere definitely seems to be some truth in a link between sexual frustration, isolation, sexism, homophobia, and extremism based on the information out there, maybe it's more productive to take a step back and realize that many ITT are not trained in psychoanalysis or anthropology and take into consideration there can be several other factors that lead to someone becoming an extremist than simply being social outcasts. What is the root cause of someone's disenfranchisement? Is it more accurate to say that someone becomes hateful because they are not getting laid as much as they want, or that they are not getting sex because they are assholes who learned some problematic attitudes growing up from their surroundings that are difficult to root out? Toxic masculinity, social isolation, and sexual frustration can definitely be a step for men that leads to radicalization, but there are also other roads young, frustrated white males take that lead them to that point.

Would be interesting to hear from someone with a degree in anthropology or psychology on this IMO.

 

[gfxtwin]

I hope everyone here remembers that the issue isn't always about sex or companionship. If that were the case, the Orlando shooting wouldn't have taken place since the shooter had a loving and supporting wife. A wife who got arrested recently for obstructing justice.

LOL, it was also revealed that he might've been hiding his attraction to men, which possibly puts into question how healthy his marriage was, but admittedly I can't remember how much of that bit of info was proven or speculation.

 

[gfxtwin]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this.

When you're at your worst it's extremely easy to get pulled into just about anything that will accept you despite previous failings.

Still doesn't excuse it, and speaks volumes about someone's conscience and intelligence if they go down that road.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

whats scary is i can relate a lot to these peoples origins.. the isolation.. the lack of a "community" .. only child, live with mom.. but instead of making me hateful its just made me suicidal

Same. That's the whole reason I bothered reading the rest of the thread after the OP. It's a bizarre feeling knowing that people I disagree with so vehemently share such similar circumstances. But hey, it's kinda nice to know that despite being a bitter isolated loser on the fast track to suicide, I still could've turned out worse.

It seems to be a cultural problem. Makes me wonder how much of radicalization in general is fueled by sexual insecurities and frustrations born of toxic male upbringings.

It's really horrible what some straight guys are taught regarding female sexuality. You're not owed a woman. You have to attract them, same as they have to attract you. Luckily for us guys, the scales are pretty imbalanced in our favor in this regard. Simply practice good hygiene, learn to dress yourself properly, interact with the opposite sex, be funny or charming or interesting or exciting (note the disjunctive) or reliable or ambitious or industrious or (you could really do this all day but you get the point)--do all or just even some of those things and some poor woman, somewhere, will take an interest in you.

But whatever you do, DON'T join a radical online woman-hating movement. It's... counter-productive.

Oh, just be funny/charming/interesting/exciting? Why didn't I think of that?

Spoiler

/s

 

[User Name Here]

I mean, this is true, but I think just describing people as "susceptible" is oversimplifying the radicalization process.



Last I checked, this thread was about white men and online alt-right/PUA/anti-PUA communities, none of which are related to Orlando. There's already plenty of discussion about Islamic terrorism.

I really was just using that as an example. I mean, I guess the two forms of radicalization are different enough to not make this an apt comparison.

But basically, I'm saying the same thing as gfxtwin.

Maybe there is a link between lack of sex and becoming an extremist. There definitely seems to be a link between closeted homosexuality, homophobia and extremism. But IMO maybe it's not entirely productive to settle on "inability to have sex" as a root cause of becoming an extremist for several reasons.

LOL, it was also revealed that he might've been hiding his attraction to men, which possibly puts into question how healthy his marriage was, but admittedly I can't remember how much of that bit of info was proven or speculation.

I knew someone was going to bring that up right after I posted. But as you say, we don't know if that was the case for sure. Although, It is interesting that his sexuality might have played a roll in his susceptibility to radicalization. And if it did, then well there we go. There goes another example of there being a link between repressed sexual desires or needs and extremism.

 

[JPLMD]

It seems to be a cultural problem. Makes me wonder how much of radicalization in general is fueled by sexual insecurities and frustrations born of toxic male upbringings.

It's really horrible what some straight guys are taught regarding female sexuality. You're not owed a woman. You have to attract them, same as they have to attract you. Luckily for us guys, the scales are pretty imbalanced in our favor in this regard. Simply practice good hygiene, learn to dress yourself properly, interact with the opposite sex, be funny or charming or interesting or exciting (note the disjunctive) or reliable or ambitious or industrious or (you could really do this all day but you get the point)--do all or just even some of those things and some poor woman, somewhere, will take an interest in you.

But whatever you do, DON'T join a radical online woman-hating movement. It's... counter-productive.

It's this exact mindset that actually creates the very people this topic is talking about. If it was this easy (and it's obviously not), then there wouldn't be a discussion. You really think every sexually frustrated young male HASN'T tried the above? I'm tired of people who obviously have never had any issues attracting women saying bullshit advice like this. It's only making the problem worse.

There are many factors involved and very rarely when I meet these sexually frustrated men are the above problems ever actually an issue. It's much more complicated than that.

 

[Dragonite]

It seems to be a cultural problem. Makes me wonder how much of radicalization in general is fueled by sexual insecurities and frustrations born of toxic male upbringings.

It's really horrible what some straight guys are taught regarding female sexuality. You're not owed a woman. You have to attract them, same as they have to attract you. Luckily for us guys, the scales are pretty imbalanced in our favor in this regard. Simply practice good hygiene, learn to dress yourself properly, interact with the opposite sex, be funny or charming or interesting or exciting (note the disjunctive) or reliable or ambitious or industrious or (you could really do this all day but you get the point)--do all or just even some of those things and some poor woman, somewhere, will take an interest in you.

But whatever you do, DON'T join a radical online woman-hating movement. It's... counter-productive.

No man is entitled to a woman and no woman is entitled to a man. However the average women has it 1000x easier to get a man. Also you don't create attraction, men definitely don't have it easier. Good hygiene, clothes, haircut, being funny and charming don't help at all. The only thing that helps is good genes. And women don't find the majority of men that attractive combined with the fact that there are more men than women makes it so a lot of men are living sexless lives.

 

[Metrotab]

Same. That's the whole reason I bothered reading the rest of the thread after the OP. It's a bizarre feeling knowing that people I disagree with so vehemently share such similar circumstances. But hey, it's kinda nice to know that despite being a bitter isolated loser on the fast track to suicide, I still could've turned out worse.



Oh, just be funny/charming/interesting/exciting? Why didn't I think of that?

Spoiler

/s

Same here. Fit the profile exactly, down to the 4chan-browsing and anime-watching. But I stayed a boring centrist instead of falling into the alt-right vortex of crazy.

 

[Audioboxer]

No man is entitled to a woman and no woman is entitled to a man. However the average women has it 1000x easier to get a man. Also you don't create attraction, men definitely don't have it easier. Good hygiene, clothes, haircut, being funny and charming don't help at all. The only thing that helps is good genes. And women don't find the majority of men that attractive combined with the fact that there are more men than women makes it so a lot of men are living sexless lives.

Wut? That is not true at all.

A good personality goes a long way, but having some respect for yourself and trying to be hygienic and somewhat presentable goes a long way on top of personality.

Make no mistake, it may be the case in "early years" a lot of the "bad boys" with apparent confidence and egotistical traits get all the girls, but a lot of individuals soon learn committing to spend your life with someone is best when it's with someone that ends up being your best friend. Not just a dick attached to a genetically favourably predisposed body. Why do you think all those "gorgeous celebs" are always breaking up all over the place? To live with someone and spend most of your time with them usually only works if bonds and friendship can take center stage.

So while it may be true you cannot just get any partner you want, and some others may have better "luck" than you, if you work on your personality and take care of some basic grooming it will go a long way. Arguably personal hygiene before fashion, but sure, some flattering clothing for yourself and a styled haircut (long or short) can go a way to aiding you in the dating world.

None of that is to downplay anyone's individual struggles, we all have them, but it's about being honest and making the best of what you can.

 

[Not]

No man is entitled to a woman and no woman is entitled to a man. However the average women has it 1000x easier to get a man. Also you don't create attraction, men definitely don't have it easier. Good hygiene, clothes, haircut, being funny and charming don't help at all. The only thing that helps is good genes. And women don't find the majority of men that attractive combined with the fact that there are more men than women makes it so a lot of men are living sexless lives.

Outside of prison, what's the ratio of men getting sexually assaulted compared to women? Or discriminated against, or ignored, or unable to lead or reach high positions solely due to their gender?

Can women access pills that help them perform sexually as a health benefit and run the fuck away when they get someone else pregnant all because birth control is "inconvenient," and then cower in the corner while the person they impregnated gets chastised by society for their "promiscuity?"

I feel like men should suck it up.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

whats scary is i can relate a lot to these peoples origins.. the isolation.. the lack of a "community" .. only child, live with mom.. but instead of making me hateful its just made me suicidal

I'm in the same boat. I even started getting into PUA stuff in high school, but I still never opted in to the hatred and bitterness towards jocks, women, minorities, etc.

I always found that resentment to be fucking maddening, which just isolated me further.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

It's this exact mindset that actually creates the very people this topic is talking about. If it was this easy (and it's obviously not), then there wouldn't be a discussion. You really think every sexually frustrated young male HASN'T tried the above? I'm tired of people who obviously have never had any issues attracting women saying bullshit advice like this. It's only making the problem worse.

Right, and it starts early. It's like the guys that were marginalized growing up are told "it's gonna get better, these other guys are gonna flame out after high school or college" think that, hey yeah I am gonna be attractive with my job and my success and so forth. Life's a Hallmark romantic comedy where the asshole jerk gets his one-uppance and the hero (i.e. me!) will get the hot girl. Only they get out into the real world and realize that there's millions of other guys just like him, but actually may be slightly more attractive for numerous reasons. Oh and that guy that was supposed to decline after high school? He never did.

Then the issue becomes, "well I'm gonna improve myself." Unfortunately, that's what all these other marginalized guys think too. And herein lies the rub though... some of these guys do those things; start dressing better, start learning new things to do, but it's never about themselves or improving their own self-worth and self-esteem. They're not stupid and realize "hey doing these things will, yes! Make me more attractive so let's get to it!" when the thought process should be "hey, I've always wanted to play the piano. I'm gonna learn just because I want to set a goal and accomplish it." Going back to my RPG stat analogy, the end goal is "sex with hot girl" and all of these attributes are just to level up further. It becomes an internal competition (you vs. the world/all those other alpha assholes/those bitches that don't appreciate me) and since they're not actually doing any of these things to help with their self esteem and ego, they can only maintain that for so long before they start to feel pangs of frustration since all their efforts (I learned how to play the piano! I go rock-climbing! I travel! What's WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN FOR NOT REALIZING HOW GREAT I AM?!) are not yielding the expected results.

That's when they look for outlets and other like-minded folks. That's where you run into trouble.

To be honest, I *started* down this path though quickly reversed courses early on. I had a bad breakup in college and wasn't dating for a long time. I fell into the nice-guy trap too. I could've ended up similar to that guy I grew up with I mentioned earlier in the thread until I took a long look at myself and said "you know what? I'm gonna get in shape since my cholesterol isn't the best. I'm gonna start eating better. I'm gonna start playing the piano again" and the end goal was never sex or a girl. It sounds hokey and cliched, but it was for me, to improve my self-worth. I still didn't have success dating for a while, but I also didn't care as much and was in a much better place mentally and you know what? Dating got way easier once I turned that corner, and I married the woman of my dreams.

 

[Dragonite]

Outside of prison, what's the ratio of men getting sexually assaulted compared to women? Or discriminated against, or ignored, or unable to lead or reach high positions solely due to their gender?

Can women access pills that help them perform sexually as a health benefit and run the fuck away when they get someone else pregnant all because birth control is "inconvenient," and then cower in the corner while the person they impregnated gets chastised by society for their "promiscuity?"

I feel like men should suck it up.

I didn't say women have it easier, I just said that a woman will have a much easier time finding a man and find it much easier to be in a fulfilling relationship. When it comes to the relationship, love, affection, intimacy part of life women have no problem. They still have problems in other areas of life

 

[Maximo]

I didn't say women have it easier, I just said that a woman will have a much easier time finding a man and find it much easier to be in a fulfilling relationship. When it comes to the relationship, love, affection, intimacy part of life women have no problem. They still have problems in other areas of life

*When it comes to relationships women have no problems"

 

[Mawnster]

No man is entitled to a woman and no woman is entitled to a man. However the average women has it 1000x easier to get a man. Also you don't create attraction, men definitely don't have it easier. Good hygiene, clothes, haircut, being funny and charming don't help at all. The only thing that helps is good genes. And women don't find the majority of men that attractive combined with the fact that there are more men than women makes it so a lot of men are living sexless lives.

I'm so tired of stuff like this. It's just not true.

I'm afraid reality is a lot more different than Instagram shows and most of us don't look like those gorgeous women that you see in there. We are equally humilliated and rejected for being average, and often have the same difficulties men do. I admit I haven't had much trouble when it comes to finding partners, but one of my friends stayed virgin until the age of 22 and the other one is 24 and still a virgin. None of them set their standards high, like many of the people in here like to say. They're not even that ugly, they're just average, nerdy and shy. I've heard them say things like "I'm desperate. I'd have sex with the first man who offers it" but then people have shamed them for thinking like that. In fact, I have another female friend who's the opposite case. She's slept with a huge amount of men in our area and everyone calls her a slut.

And I wonder... Is this what you call having it easier? What are we supposed to do to make it easier for you? What is it that you want from us? Like... should we all be easy and sleep with absolutely every guy and be shamed for it and called sluts? Or should we stay pure and virgin until marriage because sleeping around means we just want casual sex and not an actual romantic relationsip and then be called weirdoes or puritans?

Jesssssssus.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

A lot of the guys who try that do it through that cracked, narcissistic lens. Dealing with being an introvert by becoming a ghoulish mirror image of an extrovert, walking around with odd facial hair, smoking cigars in inappropriate places, tossing on a fedora, or whatever other misguided things you can come up with, and doing it all through the filter of assuming that you really are better than everybody else except for your "genetics" (that word keeps popping up like a fucking red flag on the last few pages)...

...That isn't really giving a genuine go at a good-faith effort at changing things up a bit while attempting to be a bit better as a person.

Maybe you're one of the guys who really did give it an honest go. Who maybe looked at themselves and made an honest assessment, focused on trying to live a better life instead of building a fake one in an endless pursuit of some dream girl who could never exist, who didn't somehow end up with this fucked up worldview that if you put in a few politeness coins you get love, affection and a blowjob in return.

In that case, you're probably not one of the creepy incels/fedorabros/MRA types that are an actual problem. That actually makes you one of the people I really would rather not have associated with those people by default just because they're a bit lonely.

I would put good money on the stereotypical neckbeard brony wearing a fedora, puffing a cigar, and talking about his intelligence being on the autism spectrum. From that perspective, I think talking about "genetics" becomes more understandable.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Now we're getting into actual PUAhate territory.

Go ahead, erase all the women who are also awkward, introverted, autistic, have odd sexual hangups, have tried to be more fun to be around but failed, etc. etc. etc.

To be fair, I think there are more awkward/introverted/autistic (at least more boys are diagnosed with autism) boys than there are girls.

 

[Metrotab]

Right, and it starts early. It's like the guys that were marginalized growing up are told "it's gonna get better, these other guys are gonna flame out after high school or college" think that, hey yeah I am gonna be attractive with my job and my success and so forth. Life's a Hallmark romantic comedy where the asshole jerk gets his one-uppance and the hero (i.e. me!) will get the hot girl. Only they get out into the real world and realize that there's millions of other guys just like him, but actually may be slightly more attractive for numerous reasons. Oh and that guy that was supposed to decline after high school? He never did.

Then the issue becomes, "well I'm gonna improve myself." Unfortunately, that's what all these other marginalized guys think too. And herein lies the rub though... some of these guys do those things; start dressing better, start learning new things to do, but it's never about themselves or improving their own self-worth and self-esteem. They're not stupid and realize "hey doing these things will, yes! Make me more attractive so let's get to it!" when the thought process should be "hey, I've always wanted to play the piano. I'm gonna learn just because I want to set a goal and accomplish it." Going back to my RPG stat analogy, the end goal is "sex with hot girl" and all of these attributes are just to level up further. It becomes an internal competition (you vs. the world/all those other alpha assholes/those bitches that don't appreciate me) and since they're not actually doing any of these things to help with their self esteem and ego, they can only maintain that for so long before they start to feel pangs of frustration since all their efforts (I learned how to play the piano! I go rock-climbing! I travel! What's WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN FOR NOT REALIZING HOW GREAT I AM?!) are not yielding the expected results.

That's when they look for outlets and other like-minded folks. That's where you run into trouble.

To be honest, I *started* down this path though quickly reversed courses early on. I had a bad breakup in college and wasn't dating for a long time. I fell into the nice-guy trap too. I could've ended up similar to that guy I grew up with I mentioned earlier in the thread until I took a long look at myself and said "you know what? I'm gonna get in shape since my cholesterol isn't the best. I'm gonna start eating better. I'm gonna start playing the piano again" and the end goal was never sex or a girl. It sounds hokey and cliched, but it was for me, to improve my self-worth. I still didn't have success dating for a while, but I also didn't care as much and was in a much better place mentally and you know what? Dating got way easier once I turned that corner, and I married the woman of my dreams.

A lot of this is very recognizable to me. In college, I became obsessed with becoming extraverted and going to parties etc. because that's what I thought I had to do not to die a lonely mess of a person. I pretty much worked myself in an emotional micro-depression and bombed out of college after two years despite graduating as a high school valedictorian. That was the absolute lowest point of my self-image, and many opportunities were lost because of it.

Then, something snapped in me and I, luckily, decided to re-engage college in a different field and simply focus on getting a bachelor's for the next three years, no other bullshit but my studies and my original hobbies, even if they are solitary.

I'm still as romantically lonely nowadays, but I got things going on for me again (finishing up MSc, internships at cool places, friends and friendly acquaintances, ...), and my self-image is no longer based on some bullshit outgoing alpha-male nonsense. But I feel in hindsight, I was close to the precipice where a lot of these people just fall in and seemingly lose their truthful perspective on reality.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

If you focus on literal autism diagnosis, sure. Of course, not everybody who leans introvert is on that spectrum. And that doesn't account for the main crux of the "genetics" thing people keep mentioning, which is looks.

Girls who aren't pretty extroverts simply don't clock as human beings that exist on these people's radars.

I pretty much agree.

Although I do think women tend to be more social than men, and do statistically have an easier time finding partners (at least when it comes to marriage). The difference is like 6% though.

 

[gfxtwin]

Right, and it starts early. It's like the guys that were marginalized growing up are told "it's gonna get better, these other guys are gonna flame out after high school or college" think that, hey yeah I am gonna be attractive with my job and my success and so forth. Life's a Hallmark romantic comedy where the asshole jerk gets his one-uppance and the hero (i.e. me!) will get the hot girl. Only they get out into the real world and realize that there's millions of other guys just like him, but actually may be slightly more attractive for numerous reasons. Oh and that guy that was supposed to decline after high school? He never did.

Then the issue becomes, "well I'm gonna improve myself." Unfortunately, that's what all these other marginalized guys think too. And herein lies the rub though... some of these guys do those things; start dressing better, start learning new things to do, but it's never about themselves or improving their own self-worth and self-esteem. They're not stupid and realize "hey doing these things will, yes! Make me more attractive so let's get to it!" when the thought process should be "hey, I've always wanted to play the piano. I'm gonna learn just because I want to set a goal and accomplish it." Going back to my RPG stat analogy, the end goal is "sex with hot girl" and all of these attributes are just to level up further. It becomes an internal competition (you vs. the world/all those other alpha assholes/those bitches that don't appreciate me) and since they're not actually doing any of these things to help with their self esteem and ego, they can only maintain that for so long before they start to feel pangs of frustration since all their efforts (I learned how to play the piano! I go rock-climbing! I travel! What's WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN FOR NOT REALIZING HOW GREAT I AM?!) are not yielding the expected results.

That's when they look for outlets and other like-minded folks. That's where you run into trouble.

To be honest, I *started* down this path though quickly reversed courses early on. I had a bad breakup in college and wasn't dating for a long time. I fell into the nice-guy trap too. I could've ended up similar to that guy I grew up with I mentioned earlier in the thread until I took a long look at myself and said "you know what? I'm gonna get in shape since my cholesterol isn't the best. I'm gonna start eating better. I'm gonna start playing the piano again" and the end goal was never sex or a girl. It sounds hokey and cliched, but it was for me, to improve my self-worth. I still didn't have success dating for a while, but I also didn't care as much and was in a much better place mentally and you know what? Dating got way easier once I turned that corner, and I married the woman of my dreams.

Yeah, it's not just social awkwardness, self-hatred and isolation... it seems like things start taking a turn when ego, and more specifically, white ego starts to become a thing, is left unchecked, and snowballs and gets outta control. That seems to be when someone starts going from being like Charles Crumb all the way over to being more like Richard Spencer.

 

[Peltz]

It's this exact mindset that actually creates the very people this topic is talking about. If it was this easy (and it's obviously not), then there wouldn't be a discussion. You really think every sexually frustrated young male HASN'T tried the above? I'm tired of people who obviously have never had any issues attracting women saying bullshit advice like this. It's only making the problem worse.

There are many factors involved and very rarely when I meet these sexually frustrated men are the above problems ever actually an issue. It's much more complicated than that.

I agree to a certain extent, but also disagree with the bolded. Correct, no man is owed a woman. And to say it's easy for a guy to get a girl simply by doing XYZ is complete bullshit for some guys I know. None of them happen to be white and all of them are pretty reasonable dudes though.

But hate does not need a "reason" to exist. People in the thread are pointing to sexual frustration as a reason. But true hatred and bigotry happens in susceptible people in absence of any reason. That's just the way they are or the behavior they learned. To try and cure the "cause" of racism is a very foolish pursuit.

Bigotry in all its forms is its own thing and should be treated as a cause and not a "result" of anything else.

When I once saw a KKK member asked why he hates blacks and Jews, he was very matter of fact about it. He said "I hate them because they exist. I don't need a reason. I hate them because they exist." (Yes, he actually repeated himself like that).

Anyone who tries to empathize with a bigot and try to diagnose the causes behind the bigotry is looking at it all wrong. Racism is a tribal mentality. It is natural. We all have some racism inside of us. Most of us, however, learn at a very early age why racism is wrong and how not to act racist. We learn to acknowledge our racist thoughts for what they are - complete unfounded bullshit. Then we learn how to get along with other races to the point where we don't even think much about race in our daily interactions.

Others, however, never learn to do that. They feed that uncivilized animal inside them that is not tolerant or accepting of others. Or they are genuinely ignorant of their own stupidity. They are tribal by nature. Sexual frustration and bigotry literally have nothing to do with each other.

There are tons of cases where it's been proven that sexual frustration played a big part in the radicalization of both young muslim men and young white men. Sadly it's a touchy subject and people prefer to act as if these men become radicalized out of nowhere.

I hypothesize that to be bullshit. Please prove me wrong. I have an open mind.

I suspect these men were radical anyway and just use sexual frustration as facet of their rhetoric.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

If you focus on literal autism diagnosis, sure. Of course, not everybody who leans introvert is on that spectrum. And that doesn't account for the main crux of the "genetics" thing people keep mentioning, which is looks.

Girls who aren't pretty extroverts simply don't clock as human beings that exist on these people's radars.

Those are the tumblr SJW enemy, of course.

 

[Frozenprince]

I didn't say women have it easier, I just said that a woman will have a much easier time finding a man and find it much easier to be in a fulfilling relationship. When it comes to the relationship, love, affection, intimacy part of life women have no problem. They still have problems in other areas of life

Lol what? Yeah they do.

 

[User Name Here]

I'm so tired of stuff like this. It's just not true.

I'm afraid reality is a lot more different than Instagram shows and most of us don't look like those gorgeous women that you see in there. We are equally humilliated and rejected for being average, and often have the same difficulties men do. I admit I haven't had much trouble when it comes to finding partners, but one of my friends stayed virgin until the age of 22 and the other one is 24 and still a virgin. None of them set their standards high, like many of the people in here like to say. They're not even that ugly, they're just average, nerdy and shy. I've heard them say things like "I'm desperate. I'd have sex with the first man who offers it" but then people have shamed them for thinking like that. In fact, I have another female friend who's the opposite case. She's slept with a huge amount of men in our area and everyone calls her a slut.

And I wonder... Is this what you call having it easier? What are we supposed to do to make it easier for you? What is it that you want from us? Like... should we all be easy and sleep with absolutely every guy and be shamed for it and called sluts? Or should we stay pure and virgin until marriage because sleeping around means we just want casual sex and not an actual romantic relationsip and then be called weirdoes or puritans?

Jesssssssus.

It's hard for guys to talk to women they don't know exist. I'm just saying!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

When it comes to the relationship, love, affection, intimacy part of life women have no problem.

Hahahaha fucking what