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We need to talk about the online radicalisation of young, white men
- Thread starter unpopularblargh
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Do you really not know? Or are you just trying to put everyone on a common ground when there isn't one?
#NotAllWhites, obviously, but there's a sense of entitlement running in white male culture. That if you're good, women owe you sex, and if they don't agree and ditch you for a jerk they're sluts and it's their fault. Same, minorities owe you for being in *your* country, and should leave if they don't admit your culture is superior, things like that.
ZackieChan
Member
Insofar as it will be roundly mocked and dismissed by most of NeoGaf without much deeper thought, allowing the problems to persist and flourish, yes.
This actually has merit. Sexual frustration is found in all the most toxic, predominantly male and or nerdy communities. Guys find these spaces where they commiserate with others who share in their entitlement/sexism. Doesn't change the fact that they are or become racist af. I think it's really the jumping off point. Elliot Rodgers was bemoaning how someone he perceived to be beneath him(a black man) could so easily take something he felt should belong to him, a white girl. There's an intersection of sexism and racism in that case.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
It's no more or less racist than a thread about the radicalization of young, Muslim men would be. That is to say, not racist at all, though some posts may lean in that direction.
It's just acknowledging a problem that needs to be addressed.
Aren't these pretty well established scources of radicalisation?
I don't really get the sarcasm behind the terms i've seen recently. The real life consequences are terrifying enough.
I may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure you find similar attitudes everywhere.
LegendofJoe
Member
Most of these men are hateful, bitter, and miserable. Who would want to be involved with someone like that? It's their own damn fault. At some point you have to let those negative feelings go or they will destroy you.
I mean, you would have a point if this thread was about all white men, and we lived in an atmosphere where white men were persecuted and scapegoated. As it is, your comment appears to be bait
That's just not sexual frustration, that's programmed racist attitude over years.
Remember that one dude in California that stabbed all those people, because he was angry that Indian students were getting girls he couldn't ?
At the end I think it has a lot to do with toxic racist views and sexual frustration.
teruterubozu
Member
And you just did exactly what he wanted.
The problem is also the constant narrative of the "Lone Wolf" that automatically absolves responsibilities from other parties and shrouds a view of the collective aspects of how these people become so violent and radicalized.
Breivik didn't act on his own, neither did Dylan Roof, or this Quebec shooter. They are all part of online communities like Gamergate, MRA, Stormfront, etc. that propagate and egg each other in dominating other identity groups. And the media and society refuse to look at these communities by viewing the problem in isolation as this "lone wolf" acting by himself.
More Fun To Compute
Member
It means that some families in the near east wandered west instead of east when the ice age thawed. Surely this instinctual preference for the wrong compass direction marks them out as the agents of satan who can only do evil on this world. Only the males though for the mark of the beast only flows down the line of sons not daughters.
Yeah it's nonsense. There is little difference between Germans and Syrian or Iranians when it comes to genetic history. Mostly the differences are cultural. Language and religion and so on.
Perhaps the term "White" has some secret occult meaning to some people who popularised the term or whatever. Nothing useful to rational people.
unpopularblargh
Member
From BBC:
Isolation, alongside the feeling that society has let you down. So you go looking for a group where you can fit in. For ISIS recruits it was religious extremism. For young white men it seems to start off with PUA culture until they've fully immersed themselves in to alt-right/white supremacy.
Sound familiar?
Isolation, alongside the feeling that society has let you down. So you go looking for a group where you can fit in. For ISIS recruits it was religious extremism. For young white men it seems to start off with PUA culture until they've fully immersed themselves in to alt-right/white supremacy.
I'm sorry was there another perp?
John Kowalski
Banned
Is it sexual frustration, or is it an inability to exert their patriarchal control on women? My personal perspective is that these are men who are incapable of accepting that they are being denied the privilege they feel is rightfully theirs, which manifests in displays of toxic masculinity.
GeordieMark
Member
But what comes first? Is it because they are that way that they don't get the attention they crave, or is it that rejection has warped their minds?
B-B-Bomba!
Member
Young white men need to get laid more often. Not even kidding, if you want to combat this by the back door (so to speak, ie without creating confrontational programs, aimed explicitly at de-radicalisation, and which would be easy targets for politicised misinterpretation [liberal conspiracy!]), then direct your efforts towards getting young (white) men into happy, fulfilling sexual relationships ASAP.
Frankly, I don't trust a theguardian.com based article on "white men" to be a good starting point to address anything.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I agree that heavy topics need to be presented carefully and respectfully, but I think the OP does so. White men are the ones being targeted, so it's reasonable that they would be called out by name.
These people need help -- for our sake and theirs -- and they aren't going to get it if the problem doesn't enter mainstream consciousness.
Frozenprince
Banned
Just keep putting it in quotations, congratulations, you solved racism. You clever person you
You won't be able to get to every frustrated young man and solve his problems, sexual or otherwise.
Programs designed to help socially isolated (and probably depressed) people aren't confrontational. The problem is reaching these people. "Young white men aren't exactly known to be big on talking aobut their problems/preconceptions. And there's a lot of stigma around it to boot.
At the same time, letting radicalised communities fester online can be dangerous. They can be the final push needed for someone to go from frustrated and depressed to a radical willing to murder. A balance has to be found when it's necessary to shut one down.
I think things can be done to help, even though you'll never be able to prevent 100 percent of cases.
bengraven
Member
I was just accused of this.
Only the liberal side. Because I'm allowing treehugging f-words to program me to accept terrorists into this country. And that I'm a threat to national security. And I should cut off social media before i let gays and PETA turn me into a homosexual jihadist. That black and Iraqi liberals on gaming forums are turning me soft and yet apparently dangerous.
And that my son was going to turn out gay because "I'm not doing anything to prevent it".
It was that pic of he little girl in Lady Liberty's arms that set off this anger. From my dad and uncle.
Only the liberal side. Because I'm allowing treehugging f-words to program me to accept terrorists into this country. And that I'm a threat to national security. And I should cut off social media before i let gays and PETA turn me into a homosexual jihadist. That black and Iraqi liberals on gaming forums are turning me soft and yet apparently dangerous.
And that my son was going to turn out gay because "I'm not doing anything to prevent it".
It was that pic of he little girl in Lady Liberty's arms that set off this anger. From my dad and uncle.
Oh right but the Guardian is not going to help anyone. They are going to help themselves and their impressions by inciting racial fragility hatred in those most susceptible to it and it seems to be working because there are a lot "hate white" articles on their frontpage.
I check that site from time to time and I can't help the feeling that it's been a cesspool for a while now. Such a low effort journalism, I've been visiting it less and less.
Social media and the internet was caught with it's pants down due to the libertarian nature of most of its creators. A free platform for any speech combined with anonymity and all the sites refusal to moderate in search of valuable dialog opened the doors.
For years the people who now commune online with like minded individuals around the world only had local outlets that were often shunned or meet in secret. No anonymity and no Google phone book for "where can I talk to people who want to kill n* and Jews"
Now there are clubs where millions of like minded bigots from around the world can meet and encourage with nary a whimper of censorship. Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc can't put the genie back in the bottle now, but it is all their faults for the current chest thumping.
Honestly, you aren't going to get rid of it, but you can make it go back in hiding. Punching Spencer in the face is a good start. Publicly outing identities, getting people fired, etc will all have a cumulative effect to pushing it back in the shadows. Hugging it out may work in a one on one basis but appeasement to the group is not a viable path forward
For years the people who now commune online with like minded individuals around the world only had local outlets that were often shunned or meet in secret. No anonymity and no Google phone book for "where can I talk to people who want to kill n* and Jews"
Now there are clubs where millions of like minded bigots from around the world can meet and encourage with nary a whimper of censorship. Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc can't put the genie back in the bottle now, but it is all their faults for the current chest thumping.
Honestly, you aren't going to get rid of it, but you can make it go back in hiding. Punching Spencer in the face is a good start. Publicly outing identities, getting people fired, etc will all have a cumulative effect to pushing it back in the shadows. Hugging it out may work in a one on one basis but appeasement to the group is not a viable path forward
Think locker room talk, and massive use of negative stereotypes. None of them are aimed at white males.
Again it's not to say there's something inherently wrong about being white, nor that other cultures don't have their own flaws with dealing with race or gender issues. But there's something that goes with the notion of privilege, and the fact that you're less of a man for not claiming what you're entitled to. Violence being seen as an appropriate way to gain your status back.
Frozenprince
Banned
What even is this?
As a pretty "lonely" guy with no real success with women in god- knows- how- many- years- now, I've seen a lot of these fringe cases and it's definitely more about the sexual frustration and it's snowball effects.
Honestly, the easiest way for someone to reject a group like this is if the group rejects them first. The thing that was the catalyst for me fully burning bridges with 4chan types was an entire IRC channel dogpiling on me and calling me a rapist (for me saying a trans person outing themselves in the bedroom, not even undressing, isn't rape).
Don't really know how this could be coaxed to happen more often, but it got me to be the person always bitching about "triggered" jokes that I am.
Don't really know how this could be coaxed to happen more often, but it got me to be the person always bitching about "triggered" jokes that I am.
Anger? I'd keep my son away from them if i were you. Once they get into his head, its going to be impossible for you to get closer to your son.
Frozenprince
Banned
Right? Ain't gotten laid in months can I throw that excuse around if I cold cock somebody? Oh sorry your honor I just needed a sleepy hj and all this would have been avoided.
Being an outcast is not an excuse to be a shitty human being. Being a shitty human being is probably a big reason why they are outcasts.
Right. I don't think explaining why someone becomes radicalised absolves them of guilt. Just like explaining why someone is a murderer doesn't absolve them of their murder.
Having lots of radicalized people around is bad for society though.
Just like we have various crime prevention programs we keep adjusting, we might need to adjust some of the things in place to prevent radicalisation.
I agree that these attitudes are part of the problem.
ReplacementPelican
Member
Reading the Guardian article makes me wonder a few things that maybe people can clarify.
1. These kids seem largely bullied and rejected by women, is that correct?
2. Are American schools actually as bad with bullying/are people actually as cruel as they appear to be in movies and TV?
Seems like these kids are basically rejects from school who want to know how to get women and then get stealthily brainwashed by utter pricks and once the brainwashing is done they then pass it down the line.
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Just saw how the last page went. Not justifying them. Just trying to get to why they'd even entertain this, nobody is born a cunt.
1. These kids seem largely bullied and rejected by women, is that correct?
2. Are American schools actually as bad with bullying/are people actually as cruel as they appear to be in movies and TV?
Seems like these kids are basically rejects from school who want to know how to get women and then get stealthily brainwashed by utter pricks and once the brainwashing is done they then pass it down the line.
-edit-
Just saw how the last page went. Not justifying them. Just trying to get to why they'd even entertain this, nobody is born a cunt.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
This is something I've seen first hand. A buddy of mine from college was always ripe for this sort of thing.
He was always super shy and was obviously a huge fan of anime and video games. He'd spend all his time in his dorm. And I get that. I'm a bit of a loner myself. But even if you like anime and games, on my dorm there were always a number of people playing video games in the commons including myself and there were social clubs you could join as well. Maybe not the most lively of social events and it's hella fucking nerdy but hey we're gaming and hanging out with buddies and having a good time and it wasn't complete isolation. It was always a pain getting him to leave his room to come out and hang out with us, even though it made perfect sense. We were like the perfect fit for him as far as having a social group.
That's not to say he didn't like us at all. Because he was always very eager to chat online through IMs and through texts. He was just a big recluse. I don't know whether it was anxiety or depression or just who he was. But I liked the guy well enough and we hung out a number of times even after college.
And it's no surprise that he ended up being the kind of person who never had a girlfriend despite clearing and desperately wanting one. He'd agonize over it all the time. But instead of working to be a sociable likable person he'd spend all his time not at work reading MRA and libertarian stuff, which appealed to him and probably made him feel better about his loneliness and inadequacies. Which always baffled me because it's not like he didn't have outlets to potentially socialize with and meet people. I personally gave him plenty. He'd always send me links to read that stuff since he clearly thought I was a smart guy but was also diametrically opposite in terms of his ideological leaning and I'd point out how this stuff was wrong and I'd actually change his mind about a lot of things. Even though he had these sorts of leanings, he was still reachable and reasonable.
But obviously, friendships aren't built and maintained by sending 5,000 word libertarian articles at people so naturally we stopped talking and drifted away from each other. A few years later I say "hi" to him, curious about how he's been doing and in my absence he became a full-on gamergater, alt-right nazi type. It wasn't a surprise I at all but it was definitely a bummer. He was always at risk for this sort of thing. It was just kind of a vicious cycle. He was a shy loner, so he tried to spend all his time being alone, which left him with inadequate social skills, which made it harder for him to make friends, which meant he spent more time being alone. And it all just made him really susceptible to this sort of thing. I don't really know how someone could have prevented him from being radicalized. There's only so much you can do to try and hold someone's hand.
He was always super shy and was obviously a huge fan of anime and video games. He'd spend all his time in his dorm. And I get that. I'm a bit of a loner myself. But even if you like anime and games, on my dorm there were always a number of people playing video games in the commons including myself and there were social clubs you could join as well. Maybe not the most lively of social events and it's hella fucking nerdy but hey we're gaming and hanging out with buddies and having a good time and it wasn't complete isolation. It was always a pain getting him to leave his room to come out and hang out with us, even though it made perfect sense. We were like the perfect fit for him as far as having a social group.
That's not to say he didn't like us at all. Because he was always very eager to chat online through IMs and through texts. He was just a big recluse. I don't know whether it was anxiety or depression or just who he was. But I liked the guy well enough and we hung out a number of times even after college.
And it's no surprise that he ended up being the kind of person who never had a girlfriend despite clearing and desperately wanting one. He'd agonize over it all the time. But instead of working to be a sociable likable person he'd spend all his time not at work reading MRA and libertarian stuff, which appealed to him and probably made him feel better about his loneliness and inadequacies. Which always baffled me because it's not like he didn't have outlets to potentially socialize with and meet people. I personally gave him plenty. He'd always send me links to read that stuff since he clearly thought I was a smart guy but was also diametrically opposite in terms of his ideological leaning and I'd point out how this stuff was wrong and I'd actually change his mind about a lot of things. Even though he had these sorts of leanings, he was still reachable and reasonable.
But obviously, friendships aren't built and maintained by sending 5,000 word libertarian articles at people so naturally we stopped talking and drifted away from each other. A few years later I say "hi" to him, curious about how he's been doing and in my absence he became a full-on gamergater, alt-right nazi type. It wasn't a surprise I at all but it was definitely a bummer. He was always at risk for this sort of thing. It was just kind of a vicious cycle. He was a shy loner, so he tried to spend all his time being alone, which left him with inadequate social skills, which made it harder for him to make friends, which meant he spent more time being alone. And it all just made him really susceptible to this sort of thing. I don't really know how someone could have prevented him from being radicalized. There's only so much you can do to try and hold someone's hand.
Let's do everything possible to get little Bobby into a relationship so he can fuck instead of him just not being a shitty human being on his own. Wtf. Like how much more codling are we going to suggest for white boys? Get every advantage possible in western society and we're the one that still have to bend over backwards to get them laid too just to try to avoid them going stupid and killing innocent people.
I agree with everything in your post except for your first sentence. Maybe it was the way you worded it. I don't know. Thing is, why is getting laid so important? Why can't we teach them this thing that LionPride said?
They don't need to get laid more often. They just need to learn how to function like normal human beings and understand that it's okay if you don't have sex every day of the week. If anything, teach them how to interact with other people or help them improve their social skills. This way they might be able to get a girlfriend and as a consequence, a fullfilling sexual relationship, like you said.
ugaboga232
Member
Two articles for those interested in why there is a weird sex/violence link only in men.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380604/#!po=40.5172
http://www.klab.caltech.edu/koch/CR/CR-Hypothalamus-11.pdf
And a bonus video of mouse mind control on this very region
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTWsr8UuSnc
Telling someone to just get over what they feel is a crippling isolation is like telling someone don't let your brain atrophy into early on set dementia in extended periods of solitary confinement. In reality you are right, no justification for these heinous acts or even the culture and bubble that catalyzes them. But as we will continue to learn in politics and the world, to the brain, perception is often reality.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380604/#!po=40.5172
http://www.klab.caltech.edu/koch/CR/CR-Hypothalamus-11.pdf
And a bonus video of mouse mind control on this very region
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTWsr8UuSnc
Telling someone to just get over what they feel is a crippling isolation is like telling someone don't let your brain atrophy into early on set dementia in extended periods of solitary confinement. In reality you are right, no justification for these heinous acts or even the culture and bubble that catalyzes them. But as we will continue to learn in politics and the world, to the brain, perception is often reality.
LegendofJoe
Member
This is more true than it should be. Nothing will change for the bether unless people are willing to seriously discuss and research the problems facing us. When we have methods to combat these problems that are proven to work we get to work implementing them; in schools, offices, labs, meda, studios, government, everywhere.
He sounds like a mass shooting waiting to happen.
Mortimer Brewster
Member
Acts of violence and doxxing are never the solution. Going down that rabbit hole makes you no better then those you purport to fight. All you do is bring everyone down to that level and then they have won.
I don't know the solution to the problem, but it's sure not that. It's a shame that people have radicalized and political discourse in general has become polarized to the degree it has.
I do think it odd that straight white guys get the excuse of a lack of sex, but gay guys who go through far worse aren't blowing the shit out of churches and mosques. Hell, I went through years of agony as a teenager dealing with my sexuality, including the fact I couldn't even tell people or contemplate having sex. Same goes for young black straight men who face exactly the same issues - yet to see them walk into a congregation and start shooting.
Sex is incredibly serious, incredibly important. Young men put a tremendous amount of value on being able to get laid and it makes 100% sense to me why they do so.
Reasons why the ability to get laid is important:
1. People need affection and companionship to be happy. Romantic affection is gated behind the ability to get laid and satisfy a partner.
2. Do you dream of starting a family one day? Won't happen if you never get laid.
3. Your respect in a male group will be damaged by this issue, leading to self-esteem issues. If that group rejects you your social circle can crash around you leading to isolation. Your friends can end up excluding you from mixed-gender events if you can't get laid - it becomes awkward for the guys who are, and hinders their efforts. I've seen this first-hand from high school to two colleges. That guy people are happy to have around unless they're going somewhere to party or get laid, in which case he doesn't get an invite.
4. Your sense of physical self-worth will be damaged by not being able to get laid, leading to body image issues.
5. Having a girlfriend is often a guy's best way of being exposed to female circles of friends. Without this continuing exposure, guys can fail to understand and sympathise with girls, and start to 'other' them on these toxic sites online. No, that's not a good excuse, but yes I believe it happens.
And so on and so forth. Sex is a tremendously important part of human life. Someone who has never had any success in that area is naturally bound to be extremely frustrated, upset and demoralised. Entitlement has nothing to do with it. Nobody has the right to get laid - and I really believe that young men understand that - but that doesn't stop it being extremely upsetting for those who can't.
The luxury of saying "sex isn't that great, and not terribly important" is one enjoyed by people who have enough experience of it to know that. Those who don't have such experience cannot know such things, and to them it appears to be a massive gaping absence in their lives, one that can cause crippling self-doubt, social anxiety, depression.
A high-school friend of mine killed himself when he was 19 in college because of lack of success with women. He was successful in every other way - a star athlete in rugby, even, and beloved by his friends - but he was somewhat ugly and nervous around girls and the issue grew and grew and grew until it dominated his thoughts and he became depressed. That caused a spiral he could not recover from. I will never forget it, I can't forget it. I suppose some guys take that pain and violence and turn it outwards instead of inwards.
There's no easy solution to sexually frustrated young men. I don't think legalised prostitution would help much because you still have the self-esteem issues (I have to pay for it - I'm a loser), you still have a majority of young men who wouldn't be able to afford it and you still have an absence of affection, which is what I'm convinced people need for their mental health, and was the thing my friend was desperate for. Affection.
More education and better mental health care would be a start but there are always going to be these angry isolated dudes, I fear.
EDIT: Most of the guys I knew in college who couldn't get laid went on to have little to no success with women in the years following. I do believe that if you can't figure it out during your 3 to 4 years surrounded by friendly young women then you're in trouble long-term. I know plenty of college friends who are still virgins 13 years on from then. People are married with kids but these guys live alone. I can't see how the ability to get laid could have more of an effect on your life, really.
LegendofJoe
Member
It's both, they're mutually reinforcing.
But at some point people need to understand (or have someone help them understand) that all the anger and insecurity they feel are precisely the things that are truly holding them down. They have the power to let go of that and find outlets that will bring positive change into their lives. They just need to realize that. Helping to accelerate or make possible that realization is the crux of the problem in my opinion.
MistakenMobius
Member
But this explanation is also for young Muslim men that join ISIS.
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