I don't think people are saying they were fully organic 30 years ago, just that the show is dropping hints that launch mecha host are a lot closer to current organic host than they were to Old Bill. The line about them not passing the Turing test till after the first year of beta, MiB stating the jump to organic was mostly a cost cutting measure, and the 3 beta bots featured in the beta test flashback that we've seen operating post launch with either Will or MiB all support this line of thinking.
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
MiB talked about cutting open a host 30 years ago and seeing all the mechanical bits. He doesn't, however, comment on 30 year prior hosts being more robotoc/less believable.....because as far as we know, they were this lifelike on the outside since day one. Sure, they were built like Terminators vs built organically now, but as far as we know, from all outward appearances, the hosts seemed as legit on day one as they do now.
Old Bill never made it past the prototype stage.
Episode 3, around 37 minutes in. Ford talks about Arnold and the origins of the park before they opened to the public. You see development scenes of the more advanced hosts, and the interior Terminator like exoskeletons. You also see then with skin and stuff put over the mechanics, and their faces and expressions already look really lifelike. Then after that you see some of the more familiar faces individually with teams watching them.
Shogmaster
Member
OMG, you guys are talking about the scene where they were dancing like stiff robots? When I say Dolores looks the same, I'm not talking about just her looks, but how she behaves.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
You keep forgetting that they're robots who can have their memories wiped and restored to a previous state. Yes she could have gone rogue and then forgotten about it and 30 years later start to have the same episodes. Hence why she is retracing her steps. The reveries are making her remember and behave the same as she did 30 years ago.
Not the stiff robots, right after that you see them moving much more naturally. That's when things started going "wrong" with the code. It's clearly a progression of scenes showing how much they accomplished in 3 years before the park even opened.
I mean do you know what the turing test is supposed to be? Do you honestly think Old Bill qualifies?
Shogmaster
Member
I'm talking about her very human like behavior. Dolores with William is just as human like as any of them when she is showing big or subtle emotions.
Peoples in the remake of "Shaft" disagrees with this.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Shogmaster, you're getting hung up on how believable the technology evolves when the show clearly wants you to just go with it. Yes they went from Old Bill to believable human behavior and movement in 3-4 years. The show simply wants you to accept its world so it can tell you its story. Getting hung up on believable technological advancement is only going to hinder you. Just like Interstellar wants you to believe they have a wormhole traveling ship in their shitty dustbowl future and somehow created a giant citadel space station that could also travel through wormholes while starving to death and choking on sandstorms.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I don't see how that's a problem.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
It isn't. Just like it isn't a problem to believe that they went from Old Bill to convincing human behavior in 4 years. You simply just have to accept it because this is the world they live in. Asking for any more science or explanation in the matter is not what the show is interested in answering.
Shogmaster
Member
Because there are no likely board reps other than William and Logan (spelled out in their backstory), I say two timeline theory is bunk. Because frankly, William can't be both MiB in the old timeline and a board rep.
Why not? There's nothing stopping him from both being a board rep and MiB.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The issue is with behavior? I thought it was going from mechanical to organic in 4 years.
Uhh.....why not?
http://deadline.com/2015/09/westworld-tessa-thompson-cast-hbo-1201533978/
There's your board member. She hasn't appeared yet.
But don't you all think it's weird that they would have had NO appreciable change to the park in 30 years?
- robots are equally lifelike / convincing
- no change to costuming
- no change to Dolores' basic story loop
- no apparent change to park topography or town structures (when we know they're frequently terraforming)
- no apparent change in robot population (you would think the "past" park would be more sparsely populated)
Seriously, if everything's been exactly the same for 30 years, why not have the entire show be set 30 years ago?
- robots are equally lifelike / convincing
- no change to costuming
- no change to Dolores' basic story loop
- no apparent change to park topography or town structures (when we know they're frequently terraforming)
- no apparent change in robot population (you would think the "past" park would be more sparsely populated)
Seriously, if everything's been exactly the same for 30 years, why not have the entire show be set 30 years ago?
Because that's not the story being told? The show is mainly about the present day Westworld. The past timeline is just a way to lay backstory while still advancing the current day plot.
Shogmaster
Member
It seems like you are reaching. The show is pretty good about showing things soon after they allude to within an episode or two. Mention the rep and not show him/her until well after EP5 seems off.
We shall see. But I keep thinking you guys are too invested in that theory. First when the theory came about, I thought it was clever. But it seems too cute at this point.
I really want to like the show. But its trying to keep everything so mysterious that I just don't care anymore. The Man in Black is the only guy making any sort of sense, and even he is a little vague.
The dialog seems to be aimed at dancing around the audience, constantly trying to tease about something greater. Well its been five episodes and its amounted to much of nothing. The show was always up against the viewer knowing the NPCs are not human. Its hard to form an attachment to whats basically a disposable, repairable robot to begin with, but robots, and humans, that are being intentionally vague and mysterious is a no go. The entire cast could be wiped out and I'd not think much of anything beyond "Whats next?"
Its a pretty show mixing Sci-fi and Western, and I'll keep watching for that. But can't say I'm dying to go buy the dvds or tune in every week.
The dialog seems to be aimed at dancing around the audience, constantly trying to tease about something greater. Well its been five episodes and its amounted to much of nothing. The show was always up against the viewer knowing the NPCs are not human. Its hard to form an attachment to whats basically a disposable, repairable robot to begin with, but robots, and humans, that are being intentionally vague and mysterious is a no go. The entire cast could be wiped out and I'd not think much of anything beyond "Whats next?"
Its a pretty show mixing Sci-fi and Western, and I'll keep watching for that. But can't say I'm dying to go buy the dvds or tune in every week.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
They do effect him. He's just done this so many times he's used to the pain. He probably feels shrugging off the bullets make him feel godlike. William is new to this, so the first time he got shot he crumpled from the shock more than anything - he thought he couldn't be shot to begin with.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I also suspect that they're editing the show to make you think that William = MiB, when it is actually not. But perhaps I'm succumbing to confirmation bias.
The only other person that I think could be other than William would be his douche friend. Like the show builds it up that MiB is William but we find out William died or something and his friend picked up the pieces. That makes way less sense overall though, so my bet is solidly on William at this point.
I'm thinking some of the confusion leading to all these theories has a lot to do with the extensive reshoots the show went through. I don't think the show is intentionally misdirecting people as much as what has been theorized, but like many have said before it's been tough keeping it all straight.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Because everything is set the way it is by the showrunners. They don't want the audience to notice the different timelines at furst sign, it is the show surprise. So everything is subtle. Little bits here and there that will lead to the great reveal.
Of course the park changes over time. The show is just showibg the parts that did not changed much. Like Disneyworld. Its basic layout us there since day 1. Attractions were removed and added, but some things remains the same. Robinson's tree, Small World, Jungle Cruise, etc. You can make a show that is set on Disneyworld in two different times separated by 30 years and no one will notice if you choose the right parts/bits. Of course people clothes would reveal it, but that does not happen in Westworld.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I don't see why it has to be an immediate leap from mechanic to organic with no in-between and why mechanic can't have fake blood and tissue in their bodies. The show is asking you to buy that mechanical hosts are capable of natural human movement. Hence the dancing scene when they were still developing them.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
I'm pretty sure the Man in Black is Snoke and Dolores is Obi-Wan's daughter.
Shogmaster
Member
Also let's talk about MiB's motivation.
In his ranting to Lawrence, he talked about why he wants to find the maze. It will allow him to set the safeties off the park and let him enjoy the park with the full dangers, not just pretend dangers. He is jaded from 30 years of pretend danger.
If he is indeed William, and was part of the incidents that resulted in guest deaths, that would mean that William/MiB already experienced the very thing he professed to be chasing after. It simply doesn't fit MiB's motivation.
In his ranting to Lawrence, he talked about why he wants to find the maze. It will allow him to set the safeties off the park and let him enjoy the park with the full dangers, not just pretend dangers. He is jaded from 30 years of pretend danger.
If he is indeed William, and was part of the incidents that resulted in guest deaths, that would mean that William/MiB already experienced the very thing he professed to be chasing after. It simply doesn't fit MiB's motivation.
It doesn't make any sense. If the past timeline theory is true, then we have no guest perspective on the "normal" current day park experience. All we have is the MiB, who is well off the beaten path, and a smattering of random guests who appear in passing.
William is presented as one of the audience POV characters, and is clearly meant to convey what it would be like to be a "first-time guest" in the park --- a guest in the park NOW, I might add - not 30 years ago. This is storytelling 101.
If William was merely a memory of Dolores', he wouldn't be a POV character and we wouldn't be privy to any scenes before he met Dolores.
It really comes down to the simple fact that you can't do narrative trickery of this magnitude on an ensemble, multiple POV show.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
This video explains the timeline theory pretty well, and even leaves a lot of additional evidence behind (ie. Dolores in the train alone).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLli7Gc1ZBU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLli7Gc1ZBU
SuperStiltzkin
Member
You can if you cordon off the past characters from present characters. So far no one in the control room has acknowledged the presence of Logan or William. MiB has not crossed paths with them. The new Wyatt storyline has not been mentioned once on their journey. Like I said, if MiB and Teddy conveniently miss Logan in the next episode, then the theory is true.
And one would think that Logan of all people would be all over this new, crazy Wyatt storyline that is apparently happening.
I don't think the wyatt storyline has fully been rolled out, as Ford was doing construction for it in episode 4.
So, just to set some expectations here for post-season discussion, what are the stakes here? I'm most debating for fun, and if the theory is disproved I'm more than happy to admit that most of what we're saw were just inconsistencies and coincidences that we were reading too much into. It happens. But if it does turn out true, are those on the other side invested in arguing against it being possible willing to admit that it was planned all along and you just refused to accept clues that were right in front of you? Or are we going to have to deal with arguments post-season about how stupid it was and how terrible the show is etc just because you were wrong? 
Wyatt is probably only a small part of what he's actually rolling out. Wyatt has already been implemented, the story flags are all there, and the woman guest who looked to be a first timer with Teddy already got to take part in it. It's interesting that when William walked pass all those bounties at the sheriff's office, there wasn't a single one about Wyatt or Hector...
Wyatt is probably only a small part of what he's actually rolling out. Wyatt has already been implemented, the story flags are all there, and the woman guest who looked to be a first timer with Teddy already got to take part in it. It's interesting that when William walked pass all those bounties at the sheriff's office, there wasn't a single one about Wyatt or Hector...
Suppose for a moment that the past timeline theory is true.
What caused Dolores' "original" malfunction?
We have a clear line of causality in the present: the "reveries" update somehow caused Dolores' dad to say the "violent delights" code phrase to Dolores, which activated a dormant part of her programming, and so on.
We have not been shown any similar reason for her to gain consciousness in the alleged "30 years ago" timeline. How do y'all account for this?
What caused Dolores' "original" malfunction?
We have a clear line of causality in the present: the "reveries" update somehow caused Dolores' dad to say the "violent delights" code phrase to Dolores, which activated a dormant part of her programming, and so on.
We have not been shown any similar reason for her to gain consciousness in the alleged "30 years ago" timeline. How do y'all account for this?
But we've already seen at least some of it in use with that female guest and Teddy going out to deal with him and his masked freaks.
I'm pro-Theory but I'll be fine-ish if it doesn't come to pass, although all of the misdirection pointing its way still needs to have a sufficient payoff.So, just to set some expectations here for post-season discussion, what are the stakes here? I'm most debating for fun, and if the theory is disproved I'm more than happy to admit that most of what we're saw were just inconsistencies and coincidences that we were reading too much into. It happens. But if it does turn out true, are those on the other side invested in arguing against it being possible willing to admit that it was planned all along and you just refused to accept clues that were right in front of you? Or are we going to have to deal with arguments post-season about how stupid it was and how terrible the show is etc just because you were wrong?
That is actually why I'm so pro-Theory, with everything we've seen it makes more sense than not, all of the vagaries and Dolores weirdness will have no purpose if it isn't true.
It took me 5 episodes to buy in so should not be too hard to go okay if it is all one consecutive season.So, just to set some expectations here for post-season discussion, what are the stakes here? I'm most debating for fun, and if the theory is disproved I'm more than happy to admit that most of what we're saw were just inconsistencies and coincidences that we were reading too much into. It happens. But if it does turn out true, are those on the other side invested in arguing against it being possible willing to admit that it was planned all along and you just refused to accept clues that were right in front of you? Or are we going to have to deal with arguments post-season about how stupid it was and how terrible the show is etc just because you were wrong?
TurboLibre
Member
I'm actually thinking the opposite. If Dolores has been acting weird for 30 years and nothing came from it, it feels like they took away the only stakes the show has. If she's awakening to sentience and is in the exact same state 30 years later going through the same routine, it's not really a special event. It's just a new loop.
Arnold tinkered with her all those years ago, that is what Ford was getting at in the last episode when talking with her. Remember, Arnold was trying to give them real consciousness after all.
edit:
It's not like that is a recurring idea or anything.
So, just to set some expectations here for post-season discussion, what are the stakes here? I'm most debating for fun, and if the theory is disproved I'm more than happy to admit that most of what we're saw were just inconsistencies and coincidences that we were reading too much into. It happens. But if it does turn out true, are those on the other side invested in arguing against it being possible willing to admit that it was planned all along and you just refused to accept clues that were right in front of you? Or are we going to have to deal with arguments post-season about how stupid it was and how terrible the show is etc just because you were wrong?
Wyatt is probably only a small part of what he's actually rolling out. Wyatt has already been implemented, the story flags are all there, and the woman guest who looked to be a first timer with Teddy already got to take part in it. It's interesting that when William walked pass all those bounties at the sheriff's office, there wasn't a single one about Wyatt or Hector...
It depends on if they execute the reveal of the alt timeline well.
And yeah that is weird, but it could just be that Ford rolled teddy out on his wyatt quest shortly before william and Logan embarked on their bounty quest and they just didn't encounter it. Or that wyatt isn't a bounty quest at all and that you had to encounter teddy and the black sheriff guy to embark with teddy on hunting down wyatt.
The narrative sequence actually does lay out that teddy was already on the wyatt quest. Delores asked if teddy was ok the morning of the day teddy didn't go with her to the ranch and she went all wonky and stumbled into Williams camp that night, seemingly the first night they were camping out after accepting the bounty quest.
And on hector, so we know for sure that would even be a bounty quest? It seems both hector and wyatt are larger narratives and the bounty posters are smaller side quests, as even Logan comments doing the bounties is JV level.
We can agree on that. That's probably what happened at The Church.
But!
What happened to TRIGGER Arnold's tinkering 30 years ago (4 years after he died)?
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Arnold's programming probably just kicked in. Then it got suppressed through software updates until reveries made it resurface. Maybe a time delay trigger. Maybe it kicks in when a guest helps pick up her canned food she drops. I don't think Teddy existed in the past. So maybe he was invented as a means of closing that loop so no one will trigger it. William picked up the can for her and the MiB did too. Though it is a stretch to say that no guest has picked up the can for her in 30 years. But it does play into Arnold's supposed cynicism of mankind that people are just there to fuck and kill and no one would go paragon.
I have another theory, based off of the two timelines theory. Ford mentioned he knows everything about his guests and employees. He's always seen things very clearly. Logan mentions that the park knows everything about William and that they sent Dolores out with them to make William care about something and become invested in the park experience. So far he's been very detached and un-immersed. So Dolores running off to meet William and Logan is not some coincidence. It's some elaborate plan to revive park funding back then. William jokes that the park coordinators are watching their every move. I think that is the case in their timeline.
TurboLibre
Member
Of course not. But the framing about this being something important is greatly diminished if somehow she hasn't made progress in 30 years from "waking up", and the company somehow never caught on to her breaking programing. Even though they caught her dad immediately.
Now if the MiB is the one in the past, and his actions are why Dolores is acting weird. At least that allow her story to still have weight. But I'm undecided on any specific theory. It's anything goes at this point.
Yeah I feel like an alt timeline with dolores already developing sentience in the past sort of diminishes from it developing in the present. We already know that her bid for sentience in the past, if that's what we're actually being shown, is doomed to fail.
I think some people are genuinely interested in the critical failure event from 30 years ago but I'd rather see the show move forward more quickly with multiple/all the hosts developing sentience rather than spending so much time on past events in the park.
TurboLibre
Member
I still feel like if there's a twist it's going to involve the movie. The entire movie is about the hosts turning on the guests. So far it's like a show based on Jurassic Park, but all they're doing is maintaining the dinos.
Which is still awesome, don't get me wrong. Might be my favorite show I've seen in years. But I do wish there was a little more weight to what was happening.
Which is still awesome, don't get me wrong. Might be my favorite show I've seen in years. But I do wish there was a little more weight to what was happening.
More_Badass
Member
But doesn't that tie thematically in with the show's focus on loops and routine and how the reveries caused those loops to shatter?
If this was simply about an AI gaining sentience like Ex Machina, I'd agree. But this show is more complicated than that, and an AI doomed to failure the first time is connected to the wider story of the conflict between Arnold and Ford and those events affecting William. Dolores failing would be important to the Arnold/Ford storyline, since in the past, she would merely be a pawn of Arnold
ShemhazaiX
Member
So, just to set some expectations here for post-season discussion, what are the stakes here? I'm most debating for fun, and if the theory is disproved I'm more than happy to admit that most of what we're saw were just inconsistencies and coincidences that we were reading too much into. It happens. But if it does turn out true, are those on the other side invested in arguing against it being possible willing to admit that it was planned all along and you just refused to accept clues that were right in front of you? Or are we going to have to deal with arguments post-season about how stupid it was and how terrible the show is etc just because you were wrong?
Wyatt is probably only a small part of what he's actually rolling out. Wyatt has already been implemented, the story flags are all there, and the woman guest who looked to be a first timer with Teddy already got to take part in it. It's interesting that when William walked pass all those bounties at the sheriff's office, there wasn't a single one about Wyatt or Hector...
Personally I'm not fussed either way, but I am looking forward to the meltdowns and "This show is stupid!" from people who think it's all occurring at the same time. I especially look forward to the "It's an undeserved twist! It came from no where!" even though people have been talking about the possibility for ages and it's practically rubbed in your face.
Only thing I'll meltdown over is if Bernard is an android. I personally think that'd just be boring.
Those themes are present and are being explored whether or not there is a past timeline. Do we really need the "breaking the loop is ALSO part of the loop" twist a la Matrix Reloaded?
How is she not merely a pawn of Arnold now, in the present? It seems at this point in the story that Ford introduced the reveries as a way to identify and eliminate Arnold's hidden programming. Dolores is hearing Arnold's voice (in the present) just as the other malfunctioning hosts did - and she's following his instructions. If this is really the second time this has happened, what's different now compared to the first time?
More_Badass
Member
Now The Man In Black is involved, and trying to find the maze too. Now Wyatt and his forces are a new obstacle. Now there's corporate espionage going on. Now Maeve is gaining sentience and clarity seemingly faster than anyone anticipated. Now Ford has a new story in the works