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[More_Badass]

That's the point: he's a (bored) player looking for something new, something he probably won't get a second chance to do. And he's related to the park from near its inception. Please tell how this character is less compelling than 'EINHORN IS FINKLE!'. Seriously, I'd love someone to explain to me, in fucking detail - because I keep doing that and then it's all "oh you're wrong" - why that would possible be worthwhile story.

Btw, psychology teaches us that personality does not fundamentally change, so the very idea is so out there that it requires ridiculous amount of exposition to 'explain' it.

Personality, no, but perspective, sure. From feeling like the park is real and caring for the hosts and whatnot to realizing it's all a game, that you were just naive and tricked by the beauty of the place, and not giving a shit because none of it is real? How is that any different from caring about storyline and character in your first playthrough of RDR and then deciding to go on massacres and put people on train tracks because it's fun and you don't care about John's reputation?

And it's easy to show that change. All you need is one major moment to shatter his belief and growing immersion in the game and then extrapolation and editing does the rest

 

[Buba Big Guns]

How do the linear timeline people explain Dolores being in the train alone? Her glitching out? I didn't even consider the multiple timelines until the last episode, where they threw some huge clues towards the theory and it all makes sense in context. Logan talking to Williams like the park opened recently etc. Only makes sense if they are in the past.

 

[ZOONAMI]

How do the linear timeline people explain Dolores being in the train alone? Her glitching out? I didn't even consider the multiple timelines until the last episode, where they threw some huge clues towards the theory and it all makes sense in context. Logan talking to Williams like the park opened recently etc. Only makes sense if they are in the past.

That when she's hearing voices she blanks everything else out. William even comments in the graveyard scene he heard her talking to herself where they also blanked william and Logan out and she comments it must have been the wind.

How do you explain her being on the train alone and no one caring despite the much earlier chronological comments she was off loop after wandering off the ranch? To pull her, then sending someone, and not pulling her because she was with William?

Nothing in Logan's comments concretely point to the park opening recently.

 

[PolishQ]

No, that's what you want and think he should be.

Well, yeah, it's just, like, my opinion, man.

Tell that to Dracula, Frankenstein, Memento, Psycho, House of Leaves, and so on

Psycho (at least the movie version) is told as a completely linear story.

Dracula, Frankenstein, and House of Leaves are told through documents (journals and so forth) that each have a single POV and are clearly delineated. In HOL, we know when we're reading about past events and we know when we return to the present framing narrative.

Memento has two "timelines", one told backwards and one forwards, with the two clearly delineated through use of color and B&W. We know from the get-go that scenes are not being presented in linear order. The film also has a single POV character, and uses nonlinear storytelling to communicate his mental state to the audience.

None of these examples hide their narrative structure like Westworld is allegedly doing. And only Memento is truly nonlinear. The other examples use pretty standard flashback techniques.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

That when she's hearing voices she blanks everything else out. William even comments in the graveyard scene he heard her talking to herself where they also blanked william and Logan out and she comments it must have been the wind.

Oh right, somehow I missed that too.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

You're conveniently forgetting that the presence of Dolores in both the MiB and William storylines pops the "exists in a vacuum" argument.

You're forgetting that Dolores could be present in both timeline with little to no visible change whatsoever.

Also gonna throw another theory out there that is friendly to both single and double timeline people. The Runaway Dolores journey William is on is just another storyline that the park coordinators created. The voices Dolores is hearing aren't clues or rampant behavior, but the voices are a way of telling her to keep going with the storyline to keep William following and immersed.

 

[ZOONAMI]

You're forgetting that Dolores could be present in both timeline with little to no visible change whatsoever.

Also gonna throw another theory out there that is friendly to both single and double timeline people. The Runaway Dolores journey William is on is just another storyline that the park coordinators created. The voices Dolores is hearing aren't clues or rampant behavior, but the voices are a way of telling her to keep going with the storyline to keep William following and immersed.

No, because the hosts aren't supposed to be hearing voices according to ford, in either timeline.

 

[PolishQ]

You're forgetting that Dolores could be present in both timeline with little to no visible change whatsoever.

My point is that William and Logan existing in a vacuum is only a problem AFTER the two timelines theory is applied, which points to the theory itself being problematic.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

Well, yeah, it's just, like, my opinion, man.

None of these examples hide their narrative structure like Westworld is allegedly doing. And only Memento is truly nonlinear. The other examples use pretty standard flashback techniques.

Gemini Rue is an adventure game that pulls it off fantastically.

Now we're arguing that this is a concept that sucks and that's a whole other argument I don't have time for.

No, because the hosts aren't supposed to be hearing voices according to ford, in either timeline.

? I'm pretty sure I remember Ford saying sometimes the hosts perceive their programming and scripting as the voice of God or madness. Much like how they perceive their maintenance as dreams.

 

[Killthee]

But I literally just said how that's not a trick. Both sequences are presented quite explicitly with no tells, even if you through with the direct assumption that they are split across 30 years. You can't just show a sequence like that that presents an extremely clear progression of events and then say "ah, we were just fucking with you, that second shot took place 30 years earlier".

Lawrence's daughter and the lack of confirmation from HQ would be the tells if the scene is a red herring.

We clearly see the fountain empty at the beginning of the scene, then the girl pops up out of nowhere and asks her if she doesn't remember, Dolores hears Arnold's voice say remember, the girl disappears, and the sherif pops up. How is that not a possible tell?

On top of that we haven't actually seen HQ receive confirmation that she's with a guest. We're just left to assume that the sherif was the employee sent to pick her up.

There's enough there that they can revisit the scene during a twist reveal montage without contradicting anything shown.

That when she's hearing voices she blanks everything else out. William even comments in the graveyard scene he heard her talking to herself where they also blanked william and Logan out and she comments it must have been the wind.

How do you explain her being on the train alone and no one caring despite the much earlier chronological comments she was off loop after wandering off the ranch? To pull her, then sending someone, and not pulling her because she was with William?

Nothing in Logan's comments concretely point to the park opening recently.

Thor Sr just said to flag her so Behaviour could pick her up later. Bernard is in charge of behaviour, is secretly monitoring Dolores, and pushing her to find the maze. Nothing stopping him from clearing the flag or just falsifying that she's with guests.

 

[Not]

If any of this turns out to be true, it's yet another GAF thread I have to stay out of

Internet is a bummer. Everybody stop guessing twists

I do think it's funny that everybody's like, oh I bet one of the humans is actually a robot the whole time

That's maybe #2 on the list of most-used sci-fi tropes ever

 

[LiquidSword]

When Ford "inspects" Dolores in the last episode, he pulls her out because she is way off her loop and acting weird. It's current Ford inspecting her. They send her back out after that because she is with a guest (William.) If she was by herself, which she would be in the current timeline according to the theory, they would just pull her out or reset her. Explain that! lol

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

My point is that William and Logan existing in a vacuum is only a problem AFTER the two timelines theory is applied, which points to the theory itself being problematic.

Why? Because you say so? That doesn't make sense. That's why a theory is a theory.

The fact remains that any Characters that could have crossed paths with or acknowledged William or Logan to disprove the theory have yet to do so. Dolores is not one of those character because she could still be in both events. William and Logan are one circle of the ven diagram. MiB, Ford, Bernard, Theresa, even Hector and Wyatt, are the other circle. Dolores and Lawrence are the section that overlaps between the two timelines.

 

[Harlock]

This video about Anthony Hopkins is great:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSGkGKwp9U

 

[PolishQ]

Why? Because you say so? That doesn't make sense. That's why a theory is a theory.

William and Logan visit Sweetwater, which other characters have visited. They interact with Clementine, who other characters have interacted with. They see Dolores do the "drop the can" routine, which other characters have seen. They interact with Lawrence, who other characters have interacted with.

You use your theory to explain away these connections with the greater narrative, and then use the resulting "vacuum" to prove that the theory is true. That's circular logic. You've created the vacuum.

 

[Rentahamster]

How many times has Bernard pulled Dolores into the interview room even while she is still with William.

Digital remote access VR simulation.

 

[Skeletron]

What was with the two Dolores in the parade? Was that in her head, or what.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

William and Logan visit Sweetwater, which other characters have visited. They interact with Clementine, who other characters have interacted with. They see Dolores do the "drop the can" routine, which other characters have seen. They interact with Lawrence, who other characters have interacted with.

You use your theory to explain away these connections with the greater narrative, and then use the resulting "vacuum" to prove that the theory is true. That's circular logic. You've created the vacuum.

Yes they interacted with Lawrence, a character who just had his throat slit and blood drained by the MiB. All characters you have mentioned are hosts who do not change in appearance save for Lawrence who happens to look younger when William meets him. You haven't mentioned a single human character they have had any interaction with. Nothing in the show has shown that there are duplicate hosts outside of Dolores' vision.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I love this series, so much..

Anthony Hopkin's acting is blowing my mind. The scene with him and MiB... two freaking beasts of acting face to face with such a tense aura in that scene.. wow.

 

[Edzi]

Yes they interacted with Lawrence, a character who just had his throat slit and blood drained by the MiB. All characters you have mentioned are hosts who do not change in appearance save for Lawrence who happens to look younger when William meets him. You haven't mentioned a single human character they have had any interaction with. Nothing in the show has shown that there are duplicate hosts outside of Dolores' vision.

Are you just ignoring the numerous posts that have tried to explain why Lawrence is El Lazo? The show isn't trying to hide it into some clever twist.

Also, he doesn't look younger. None of the hosts change their age, they're not human.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yes they interacted with Lawrence, a character who just had his throat slit and blood drained by the MiB. All characters you have mentioned are hosts who do not change in appearance save for Lawrence who happens to look younger when William meets him. You haven't mentioned a single human character they have had any interaction with. Nothing in the show has shown that there are duplicate hosts outside of Dolores' vision.

He doesn't look younger. How could he?

 

[Azzanadra]

Somebody's probably already posted this, but I just found out that Not only did Nolan play Bioshock, but he thinks quite highly of it calling it “amongst the most literate and thoughtful pieces of entertainment I’ve seen in the last ten years.” That's quite the endorsement coming from someone in Hollywood, as I notice gamers, especially on NeoGAF love to shit on video game stories, claiming that even the worst books and movies are still better than the best video game stories.

 

[gforguava]

Since we are at the stage where we are just throwing things out there and demanding answers from the believers/unbelievers...

Unbelievers! Please explain the scene where Dolores finds the gun in her dresser.

Sequence of events:

• She finds the gun in her dresser drawer. Note this gun happens to look like the gun she is 'currently' using only that it is now old and rusty.
• She looks at it quizzically before putting it back in the drawer.
• She looks in the mirror and hears "Do you remember?"
• She flashes back to the MiB dragging her into the barn and saying "Why don't we reacquaint ourselves, Dolores, start at the beginning."
• She is back staring into the mirror.
• She reopens her dresser drawer and the gun is no longer there.
• The episode that follows has the beginning of William and Dolores' time together.

What is happening here?

 

[rataven]

Just started watching this last night. I'm on the third ep so far. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Anyway, so I may have totally missed this, but there's one thing that's been bugging me -- during all these shootouts and tussles, how do guests know they aren't shooting other guests? I get that hosts can't kill guests (because magical barrier reasons?) but presumably the guests are using real weapons to kill the hosts. How would they even know who's who in the middle of the chaos? It'd be way too dangerous.

 

[kirblar]

Somebody's probably already posted this, but I just found out that Not only did Nolan play Bioshock, but he thinks quite highly of it calling it “amongst the most literate and thoughtful pieces of entertainment I’ve seen in the last ten years.” That's quite the endorsement coming from someone in Hollywood, as I notice gamers, especially on NeoGAF love to shit on video game stories, claiming that even the worst books and movies are still better than the best video game stories.

You could definitely see the influence of games like Skyrim here on the writing and concepting- it's really fun.

 

[Brakke]

Somebody's probably already posted this, but I just found out that Not only did Nolan play Bioshock, but he thinks quite highly of it calling it “amongst the most literate and thoughtful pieces of entertainment I’ve seen in the last ten years.” That's quite the endorsement coming from someone in Hollywood, as I notice gamers, especially on NeoGAF love to shit on video game stories, claiming that even the worst books and movies are still better than the best video game stories.

Reminded me there's a "would you kindly" in the latest Black Mirror season.

 

[DEAD RABBIT]

Somebody's probably already posted this, but I just found out that Not only did Nolan play Bioshock, but he thinks quite highly of it calling it “amongst the most literate and thoughtful pieces of entertainment I’ve seen in the last ten years.” That's quite the endorsement coming from someone in Hollywood, as I notice gamers, especially on NeoGAF love to shit on video game stories, claiming that even the worst books and movies are still better than the best video game stories.

Really? Thought Bioshock's story was well regarded, except the ending (at least for me). Bioshock Infinite on the other hand is sadly quite bad.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Just started watching this last night. I'm on the third ep so far. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Anyway, so I may have totally missed this, but there's one thing that's been bugging me -- during all these shootouts and tussles, how do guests know they aren't shooting other guests? I get that hosts can't kill guests (because magical barrier reasons?) but presumably the guests are using real weapons to kill the hosts. How would they even know who's who in the middle of the chaos? It'd be way too dangerous.

Everyone uses the same guns. It's the ammunition - they use smart rounds that damage hosts but are non-lethal (though still painful) to guests.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Just started watching this last night. I'm on the third ep so far. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Anyway, so I may have totally missed this, but there's one thing that's been bugging me -- during all these shootouts and tussles, how do guests know they aren't shooting other guests? I get that hosts can't kill guests (because magical barrier reasons?) but presumably the guests are using real weapons to kill the hosts. How would they even know who's who in the middle of the chaos? It'd be way too dangerous.

hiii welcome

apparently any nearby hosts will interfere from any guests harming other guests

so, since you are new, i hope you have activated the standard quest of "two timeline" or "one timeline" main quest

if you are lost or confused, just follow the NPC with EXCLAMATION MARKS on top of their heads. dont worry they are hard to miss, they will trying to solicit you into their narratives.

other than that, welcome to westworld, where all of your waifu fantasies will be catered for ^_____^

 

[Kraftwerk]

So the two timelines isn't even a debate at this point right? I mean with the old logo being shown which confirms it (?)

 

[Flo_Evans]

Since we are at the stage where we are just throwing things out there and demanding answers from the believers/unbelievers...

Unbelievers! Please explain the scene where Dolores finds the gun in her dresser.

Sequence of events:

• She finds the gun in her dresser drawer. Note this gun happens to look like the gun she is 'currently' using only that it is now old and rusty.
• She looks at it quizzically before putting it back in the drawer.
• She looks in the mirror and hears "Do you remember?"
• She flashes back to the MiB dragging her into the barn and saying "Why don't we reacquaint ourselves, Dolores, start at the beginning."
• She is back staring into the mirror.
• She reopens her dresser drawer and the gun is no longer there.
• The episode that follows has the beginning of William and Dolores' time together.

What is happening here?

She leaves the gun(s) like Maeve leaves the drawings of the techs. It takes a few loops but eventually she stashes it in the barn. Teddy is on the new story, no one to save her so she shoots her attacker, runs away and into William arms.

 

[Primethius]

It's a bit predictable but I lean towards believing the two timelines theory just because of how much William cares about Delores and how much it would hurt him when she gets purged and doesn't remember him anymore.

 

[gforguava]

She leaves the gun(s) like Maeve leaves the drawings of the techs. It takes a few loops but eventually she stashes it in the barn. Teddy is on the new story, no one to save her so she shoots her attacker, runs away and into William arms.

But she doesn't stash a gun in the barn, if you watch the scene where she kills the Host that is going to rape her you'll see that the gun she uses is his own.

 

[Mendrox]

Man I still think it's obvious that there are two timelines. I even got it without reading any clues on here somehow or got the feeling. Just a hinch with the first three episodes and Williams start in Westworld felt like something in the past (even the woman that he talked to first was...really more robotic?)

 

[gforguava]

Man I still think it's obvious that there are two timelines. I even got it without reading any clues on here somehow or got the feeling. Just a hinch with the first three episodes and Williams start in Westworld felt like something in the past (even the woman that he talked to first was...really more robotic?)

The obviousness of it all is the one thing that makes me think that maybe it isn't true. It is so, so obvious that it might just be a misdirect(but I also can't think of what it could be misdirecting us from, if that were the case).

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Again, the MiB theory being false doesn't disprove the two timeline theory. William and Logan's timelines don't have to take place right at the very beginning of the park's opening. The way they talk about the park does not line up with how the park currently stands in the Ford/Bernard/MiB timeline.

And if we're gonna get into technological inconsistencies...I don't see how you can't have fake blood in old servo type hosts. There aren't just two types of hosts. You don't just leap from generic Old Bill to full 3D printed organic. There could still be old servo types with organic muscle lined over it as a gradual advancement toward the modern day full organic hosts. The hosts can still bleed. We haven't seen the internals of the hosts yet in William's timeline. So he could still open one up and find exactly what the MiB described.

In the movie, the robots bled, but would still roughly fit MiB's description of them. Servo models are not incompatible with realistic gore.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Since we are at the stage where we are just throwing things out there and demanding answers from the believers/unbelievers...

Unbelievers! Please explain the scene where Dolores finds the gun in her dresser.

Sequence of events:

• She finds the gun in her dresser drawer. Note this gun happens to look like the gun she is 'currently' using only that it is now old and rusty.
• She looks at it quizzically before putting it back in the drawer.
• She looks in the mirror and hears "Do you remember?"
• She flashes back to the MiB dragging her into the barn and saying "Why don't we reacquaint ourselves, Dolores, start at the beginning."
• She is back staring into the mirror.
• She reopens her dresser drawer and the gun is no longer there.
• The episode that follows has the beginning of William and Dolores' time together.

What is happening here?

Dolores is an unreliable narrator and the gun is actually there but she just doesn't see it. She sort of glitches into years of a reinforced loop where there is no gun.

She also glitches into seeing the repeated loop of her being shot in her stomach before it actually happens, and is able to avoid that scenario. These eperiences make her go all wonky and stumble off the ranch and into Williams camp.

When she is listening and having converstations with a voice in her head she also blanks out he surroundings, thus william and Logan disappearing from the frame in the graveyard and william asking if she was talking to herself, and also her being alone in the train.

An alt timeline theory for the above is way more convoluted and betrays the actual sequence of scenes shown to the audience.

I'm also 99% sure there isn't a flashback to mib right when she opens the drawer and the gun is there. It was just like a quick auto correct, I remember rewinding that scene because I was like where did the gun go, and I don't remember a flashback to mib right there. What episode was that?

 

[ZOONAMI]

Gemini Rue is an adventure game that pulls it off fantastically.

Now we're arguing that this is a concept that sucks and that's a whole other argument I don't have time for.


? I'm pretty sure I remember Ford saying sometimes the hosts perceive their programming and scripting as the voice of God or madness. Much like how they perceive their maintenance as dreams.

No, he said that's what Arnold wanted to do but that caused problems so they pulled the hosts hearing voices.

 

[ZOONAMI]

What was with the two Dolores in the parade? Was that in her head, or what.

I think there may be duplicate host bodies on different loops within the park and dolores encountering a duplicate was part of why Ford did analysis on her right then.

Ford also not completely pulling her at that point for further analysis if she is on some solo quest and not with guests would also be strange. He guniunely seems concerned that she is have programming problems, she lies to him to qualm any concerns, so then he just sends her back out to complete some sort of off loop solo quest without any guests (william and logan) ???

 

[PolishQ]

Since we are at the stage where we are just throwing things out there and demanding answers from the believers/unbelievers...

Unbelievers! Please explain the scene where Dolores finds the gun in her dresser.

Sequence of events:

• She finds the gun in her dresser drawer. Note this gun happens to look like the gun she is 'currently' using only that it is now old and rusty.
• She looks at it quizzically before putting it back in the drawer.
• She looks in the mirror and hears "Do you remember?"
• She flashes back to the MiB dragging her into the barn and saying "Why don't we reacquaint ourselves, Dolores, start at the beginning."
• She is back staring into the mirror.
• She reopens her dresser drawer and the gun is no longer there.
• The episode that follows has the beginning of William and Dolores' time together.

What is happening here?

This is the first time we see the gun after she initially digs it up. The gun still has some dirt on it (it's not "old and rusty"). She doesn't remember digging it up, because she was under some robot version of hypnosis at the time.

The gun triggers a memory of the MiB, presumably from the first episode. She shouldn't be able to remember this. We don't know the significance of his "start at the beginning" line yet. It probably has to do with what Arnold planted in her back in the early days ("beginning") of the park.

Dolores has not fully awoken yet, so her "normal" programming takes over at this point and she cannot see the gun any more. It's an object that shouldn't be there, so her programming glosses over it. She goes about her day.

I think we all agree that Dolores' perception is screwed up, and that she does sporadically "flash back" to prior events (i.e. The Church). But these flashbacks are just that - flashes. She's only able to access past memories very briefly and in fragments, and when she does it leaves her visibly shaken and confused. It doesn't make sense that she would be able to remember a sustained sequence of events like her adventure with William.

 

[Chucker]

Been watching since the beginning, subscribe to the dual timeline theory, first time in the thread.

Has MiB interacted with other guests? I've been meaning to go back and watch now that I'm digging the double time theory, but maybe somebody here already discussed it.

 

[Solo]

Yes, those 2 goofballs recognized him and he said (paraphrased) "fuck off, I'm on vacation".

 

[Neoweee]

Been watching since the beginning, subscribe to the dual timeline theory, first time in the thread.

Has MiB interacted with other guests? I've been meaning to go back and watch now that I'm digging the double time theory, but maybe somebody here already discussed it.

Yes. He threatened to slit that guy's throat for talking about his RL life.

 

[ZOONAMI]

The gun still hasn't come into play. My guess is Dolores will get reset in her regular loop again, and this time the gun will be there and stay there, she now knows how to use it, and will kill MIB in the barn.

Which is poetic justice as he has said he wants her to fight back, and she finally does.

 

[biggersmaller]

What was with the two Dolores in the parade? Was that in her head, or what.

Probably. Other hosts bordering on self awareness see visions and hear voices in their heads.

 

[Solo]

Dolores can't kill MiB. At least not with a gun.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Dolores can't kill MiB.

She could if the gun she dug up was a real gun and not one of the modified Westworld guns.

 

[Solo]

She could if the gun she dug up was a real gun and not one of the modified Westworld guns.

Yes I suppose that is true....but then who is smuggling real guns into Westworld and why?

dun dun dun

 

[Neoweee]

Dolores can't kill MiB. At least not with a gun.

Yeah, there's two safe guards:

1) Smart Weapons (controlled bullet velocity based on targets, non-explosives).
2) Good Samaritan / No Harm programming against living targets.

She overcame #2 in the first episode (crushed a fly), but #1 requires manual weaponry, fall damage, and the absence of any other Hosts that would prevent her killing him.

Probably. Other hosts bordering on self awareness see visions and hear voices in their heads.

In the very first episode, we see a Host (well, sort of two hosts, but more clearly only the Milk Bandit) conversing with a person that has been dead for decades. Multiple Hosts are hallucinating and can't distinguish the past from the present. They're only showing us Dolores' POV right now, though.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Dolores can't kill MiB. At least not with a gun.

Yeah, there's two safe guards:

1) Smart Weapons (controlled bullet velocity based on targets, non-explosives).
2) Good Samaritan / No Harm programming against living targets.

She overcame #2 in the first episode (crushed a fly), but #1 requires manual weaponry, fall damage, and the absence of any other Hosts that would prevent her killing him.



In the very first episode, we see a Host conversing with a person that has been dead for decades. Multiple Hosts are hallucinating and can't distinguish the past from the present. They're only showing us Dolores' POV right now, though.

So you guys really think a mysteriously buried gun is running with the same ammo that all the hosts already have access to?

My guess is that this is sabotage by a rival company, as we already saw evidence of with the woodcutter guy with an unauthorized implant and bashing in his own skull.

Teddy won't know that the gun she has has real ammo in it, and thus won't prevent her from killing mib. He was even trying to train her on how to shoot. One of his primary drives is to protect Dolores as well, so her trying to shoot mib wouldn't be something he would stop.