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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
In addition to this; Ford's narrative language gave Bernard an out. He said Bernard would put an end to his nightmare, never told Bernard to kill himself. The implication is that Bernard's realization his life is a lie and he's been through this scenario with Ford before and had his memory wiped is the nightmare that has to be ended (ie kill himself). But logically Bernard could see the nightmare as a variety of things or interpret how to end the nightmare as not killing himself but something else entirely.
I think Ford slipped up here with the language, and on top of that did the classic villain type move of walking away before seeing his enemies actually die. We the audience are seeing in shadow through a murky window Bernard kill himself. But he could just as easily point the gun behind his head, pull the trigger and drop to the floor. And hell Ford wasn't even watching that much, all he heard was a gunshot.
Then again this could all be a further part of Ford's plan to see if Bernard would do things different this time around given vague instructions. With this show you don't know.
I think Ford is playing everyone, even the audience. If the last episode doesn't reveal that he's been partly behind all this I'll be surprised.
Zoe
Member
Pretty sure she's named Emily. And Juliette is white.
They patch them up. That's how Maeve ended up with MRSA and a bullet fragment in her gut.
They have technology that seals up wounds instantly (Sylvester).
There is no government on the moon.
The prostitute storyline seems pretty ridiculous.
It still seems outlandish for the two guys to be helping her.
It still seems outlandish for the two guys to be helping her.
Yep.
The one thing that doesn't make sense to me in the whole William = MiB theory is that the MiB told Teddy in the last episode that when he killed Maeve and her daughter was the first time he felt like the Hosts were sentient beings with real feelings.
If he was indeed William, he would've had this revelation 30 years ago with Dolores.
If he was indeed William, he would've had this revelation 30 years ago with Dolores.
BattleMonkey
Member
It would be weird for him to be rolling everywhere in the park with an army at all times. Being head of security he surely has day to day activities, and situations to take care of in the park, does he go everywhere in an armed caravan? The cold storage situation showed that they were concerned with just that one part, since it was problematic host storage, and an army of them. When he went around with Elsie he was only one armed and didn't seem overly concerned. Us the viewers know much more is going on but don't think alot is on him to be so afraid of hosts at the moment.
More_Badass
Member
No, he had the opposite revelation 30 years ago. What he thought was real and sentient was just fake, programmed, a game
So if I follow, it seems William is the MiB. He fell in love with Dolores, something dire happens next episode, and it drives him to try to find sentience in the androids again.
Years later, a changed man, he returns and murders Maeve's daughter - and realizes the key to the maze is a great loss; the android must be first gen and suffer a tremendous loss, it can sort of kick off the process to sentience. I'm guessing this is something Arnold hid in their code that Ford was never able to find/identify.
So Ford has been going about crafting his final narrative as a way to purge it once and for all somehow - that sort of dark zone being a part of it. How Wyatt's faction of apparent cannibal androids, building on themselves with components of other hosts, probably fits in. But it seems Maeve is a wild card and probably not something Ford was expecting. Probably Arnold's play he set into motion a long time ago.
Side note, Ford had Dolores murder Albert and much of the original staff before any of this, the past or future timelines, play out. Maybe not just Dolores but many of the first gen androids.
Edit: or Dolores and William stop Arnold to prevent him from shutting down Westworld and all of the hosts.
Years later, a changed man, he returns and murders Maeve's daughter - and realizes the key to the maze is a great loss; the android must be first gen and suffer a tremendous loss, it can sort of kick off the process to sentience. I'm guessing this is something Arnold hid in their code that Ford was never able to find/identify.
So Ford has been going about crafting his final narrative as a way to purge it once and for all somehow - that sort of dark zone being a part of it. How Wyatt's faction of apparent cannibal androids, building on themselves with components of other hosts, probably fits in. But it seems Maeve is a wild card and probably not something Ford was expecting. Probably Arnold's play he set into motion a long time ago.
Side note, Ford had Dolores murder Albert and much of the original staff before any of this, the past or future timelines, play out. Maybe not just Dolores but many of the first gen androids.
Edit: or Dolores and William stop Arnold to prevent him from shutting down Westworld and all of the hosts.
Yeah, that's where his narrative is headed. Teddy and Dolores both pulled off the Wyatt scene. I do have to wonder when Teddy had a chance to do that. He doesn't exist in the 34 years or 30 years time periods. And by the 30 years time period that town is already gone and buried.
Wait for it. I'm expecting Dolores dies, gets reset, cannot remember William, possibly creeps her out as he obsessively returns to her to jog her memory, goes on remarkably similar adventures with other men, becomes disillusioned with the park's fakeness and realizes Logan was sort of right all along.
Zoe
Member
We don't know that for sure. He could have been in a different role at the time.
Angry Fork
Member
This is a good catch but like duckroll mentioned maybe William see's something in ep 10 that makes him think Dolores' sentience wasn't real. I'm not sure why he was inquisitive about Maeve though considering all hosts are designed to be capable of intense emotion, grief etc. (maybe she acted more so than he'd ever seen?)
Because Maeve kills herself after the loss of her child out of grief?
Neverwinter27
Member
Anyone know the music that was playing during the whole Dolores and Arnold reveals in the current episode?
Moff
Member
The girl with teddy and MiB refered to Wyatt as "him", so I am still not sure wyatt is dolores
and I still don't think it's plausible that no one would have known about arnold, the co creater of the park. it's 30 years ago? yeah, well, I am sure they have internet. seems too big a risk for ford to have a secret host at his hands that could be revealed so easily. especially since he is not sentimental at all, and what othe reasons could he have to make him look like arnold.
also, I think the internet hurt my experience of this show, I knew every twist in advance
and I still don't think it's plausible that no one would have known about arnold, the co creater of the park. it's 30 years ago? yeah, well, I am sure they have internet. seems too big a risk for ford to have a secret host at his hands that could be revealed so easily. especially since he is not sentimental at all, and what othe reasons could he have to make him look like arnold.
also, I think the internet hurt my experience of this show, I knew every twist in advance
Teddy is probably Wyatt. We saw his memory of Wyatt's massacre get "corrected" and he was standing in Wyatt's place and shooting regular townsfolk rather than soldiers. The woman host said Teddy was almost ready, but not quite there, and would be in the next life, then kills him. He'll come back more self aware as "Wyatt" and travel to Escalante to meet up with MiB and Dolores.
He "killed" her but:
-she woke back up (shouldn't be able to do)
-attacked him with a sharp weapon (which she shouldn't be able to do... same as Dolores)
-carried her child outside in grief
All of this plus the unscripted knife attack mirroring when Dolores attacked Logan probably reignited his belief that Dolores was indeed sentient 30 years back.
meh - i probably could've done better - the point i was trying to make is that people don't always know the source of their "favorites"...
It seems to me that the park is very skeleton crew right now - you don't see a lot of people walking the halls of the host creation/development areas...
and if Arnold is a host - who is to say that most of the park "employees" aren't also hosts?
if the park is in as much financial trouble as has been hinted at - cold storage not cold, etc... - then most anyone who was around 30 years ago would be gone (in one form or another)...
I've been under the impression that the Man in Black has been coming to the park - consistently - for 30 years.
Doesn't he say at one point that he was "born" there?
That's what I'm guessing too, but wasn't it confirmed that Teddy is a relatively new host? Maybe they actually gave him a completely different body after that incident?
Teddy mentioned a man who has died 'thousands of times' is connected to the maze. Maybe Arnold put some code in him that activates after so many deaths. Turns him into Wyatt.
You're probably right, it would explain the flashbacks of him hurting Dolores. Maybe after the deal with Maeve he decided to come and kill the ones she loved to see if it'd work, and realized when it didn't work he needed to solve some other mystery about her.
Great episode. Glad to see a lot of what we've all been talking about is falling into place. Even the well foreshadowed and speculated "twists" have been handled well, IMO. Jeffrey Wright has killed it in every emotional scene, really bringing to life Bernard's pain and existential crisis.
My theories on what we will see in the finale.
- William kills Logan.
- Dolores is Wyatt.
- Teddy was the town Sherrif/Marshall in the Beta, as seen in his flashback. He sees Wyatt place a man on his chair, before shooting him. Given that any interaction between Dolores and Arnold has been with them sitting down...I wonder if that's actually Dolores executing Arnold?
The one big question I have left, is WHY has Ford manipulated events to allow Dolores to complete her journey? He's interacted with her (when she faints in Pariah), and yet doesn't stop her. We know that there's three timelines, and this takes place in the current one, so Ford will be all too aware of what she's doing and where she's trying to go...he even digs up the town he buried along with the past....so why?
Is it ALL a measure of control by Ford? How "alive" is Arnold? We know there's "someone" communicating with the hosts through the old relays, so that would suggest that this is something different to what Dolores experiences in terms of her flashbacks, reveries and the voice of Arnold in her head. So what's the ghost in the machine, then?
I wonder though, as I speculated before, whether Ford has grown tired of Delos, and is actually trying to instigate Arnold's vision through the Wyatt quest line, giving the necessary players the bread crumbs they need.
One final mad hat theory; the host we see Ford printing in the basement...is one of himself.
My theories on what we will see in the finale.
- William kills Logan.
- Dolores is Wyatt.
- Teddy was the town Sherrif/Marshall in the Beta, as seen in his flashback. He sees Wyatt place a man on his chair, before shooting him. Given that any interaction between Dolores and Arnold has been with them sitting down...I wonder if that's actually Dolores executing Arnold?
The one big question I have left, is WHY has Ford manipulated events to allow Dolores to complete her journey? He's interacted with her (when she faints in Pariah), and yet doesn't stop her. We know that there's three timelines, and this takes place in the current one, so Ford will be all too aware of what she's doing and where she's trying to go...he even digs up the town he buried along with the past....so why?
Is it ALL a measure of control by Ford? How "alive" is Arnold? We know there's "someone" communicating with the hosts through the old relays, so that would suggest that this is something different to what Dolores experiences in terms of her flashbacks, reveries and the voice of Arnold in her head. So what's the ghost in the machine, then?
I wonder though, as I speculated before, whether Ford has grown tired of Delos, and is actually trying to instigate Arnold's vision through the Wyatt quest line, giving the necessary players the bread crumbs they need.
One final mad hat theory; the host we see Ford printing in the basement...is one of himself.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
It's going to be interesting watching the earlier episodes again knowing the Bernard and Dolores scenes are actually the sessions below the church... or am I misremembering?
Yes, we'll see him get killed and later see him alive and well.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I can buy that nobody that currently works at the park knows what Arnold looks like. What's harder to swallow is that nobody on the board of directors that obviously keeps a very close eye on what's going on would connect the dots. Bernard isn't a grunt, he's in a very senior position. And Arnold was one of the creators of the park. It would be like making a clone of Roy Disney and taking it to Disney shareholder meeting. It isn't Walt but somebody would pick up on it.
Not to mention that the show has alluded to the fact that the park's only major fatal incident is the death of Arnold. Nobody...not one person on the staff looked up anything on that...to see what happen...who it happened to? It's kinda ridiculous. Ford controls Westworld but he doesn't control the outside world.
Not to mention that the show has alluded to the fact that the park's only major fatal incident is the death of Arnold. Nobody...not one person on the staff looked up anything on that...to see what happen...who it happened to? It's kinda ridiculous. Ford controls Westworld but he doesn't control the outside world.
Zoe
Member
Yep, this is the boat I'm in.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
"Staff"
Zoe
Member
We don't. They say the last incident was over 30 years ago while Arnold last talked to Dolores 34 years ago. So something else could have happened after the park opened to the public.
Damn, that is pretty obvious in hindsight. He seems to have some disdain for humans and that hosts are superior. Switching sides sounds like something he'd do.
MollyWhomp
Neo Member
I haven't seen too much if anything about this posted, so I thought I'd bring it up.
This line has been brought twice in the show now - the quote from Alice in Wonderland:
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't."
What if there are no human employees in the park? I doubt myself because there's Elsie, the writer-guy, and Theresa.
But as of now, only Theresa has been confirmed as human - at least we are led to believe so via the dead-Theresa-on-the-table scene...
But in actuality - we have no proof (short of slicing each person open and looking at their insides) that any of the employees we've met are or aren't what they seem...
This line has been brought twice in the show now - the quote from Alice in Wonderland:
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't."
What if there are no human employees in the park? I doubt myself because there's Elsie, the writer-guy, and Theresa.
But as of now, only Theresa has been confirmed as human - at least we are led to believe so via the dead-Theresa-on-the-table scene...
But in actuality - we have no proof (short of slicing each person open and looking at their insides) that any of the employees we've met are or aren't what they seem...
Stubbs also put out a recall order on Dolores, and that apparently just didn't happen or Ford maybe overrode the the recall.
Also Dolores seeing herself several times makes me think she has been on this loop more than just the 3 timelines we are speculating about.
I think it is conceiveable that one of her programmed scripts if she escapes the ranch is to stumble into some guests which then triggers events that lead them to Pariah.
Perhaps it just doesn't happen very often and Ford told Stubbs she is with guests and this loop happens occasionally. I don't know why Ford would have motivations for her to pursue this self enlightening solo quest when he generally seems very against Arnold's vision in general.
Jack Scofield
Member
How closely do the new hosts resemble humans internally? We know that they bleed and have internal organs. Do humans have something in them that hosts don't, or vice versa? I mean, I know they performed an autopsy on Teresa, but wouldn't an autopsy on a host look exactly the same?
Uhhhh, mind blowing! William=MIB was true, but so many other doubts and questions!
So the "Arnold rebellion" in the present with the voices in the head was a Ford hoax? Elsie discovered this. Was this all part of the Ford's master plan? Was Bernard controlled all the time, sessions with Dolores included?
Maybe in origin was Ford the "good guy" for the hosts, and Arnold "the bad guy" for them?
Ford hates the human kind, so probably now he wants to kill a lot of people at the inauguration of the new storyline at Escalante...
And is the city buried (and now rebuilded) the Labyrinth?
So the "Arnold rebellion" in the present with the voices in the head was a Ford hoax? Elsie discovered this. Was this all part of the Ford's master plan? Was Bernard controlled all the time, sessions with Dolores included?
Maybe in origin was Ford the "good guy" for the hosts, and Arnold "the bad guy" for them?
Ford hates the human kind, so probably now he wants to kill a lot of people at the inauguration of the new storyline at Escalante...
And is the city buried (and now rebuilded) the Labyrinth?
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
I used to think Theresa was a bot because of the "small details" line and her finger thing when she smoked. Bernard freezing her in his memory might be another tell.
This does make sense. If Ford was to kill Mib a staged suicide would be the best way to do it.
Zoe
Member
Felix told Maeve that they're identical except for the brain.
I think that was Bernard analyzing his own memories. He also froze the doctors around his dying son, then dismissed them and they vanished, then commanded his son to wake up. That's just how he interacts with his memories.