Mr. Pointy
Member
I like to think that Elsie Hughes is basically the Maya Ibuki of Westworld.
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
Mid tier seems like a narrative speed boost and Logan doesn't really seem into the narrative. William even commented that Logan has been spending his time mostly at the whorehouse. As for William, he stumbled into the bounty narrative and hasnt gotten very deep into it. The 75k tier sounds like something that would dump you in one of the outer outpost from the get go cause you're familiar with the storylines in the main town.
Afterbuzz TV episode 3 recap with Shannon Woodward (Elsie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Z0x16GIhc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Z0x16GIhc
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Cool episode.
1. I still doubt MiB is William. Especially with that last scene.
2. The ninjas who ganked Teddy were using melee weapons. We also know now that melee weapons are only allowed to certain hosts. We saw that host go nutso. Perhaps on the way to becoming a cultist?
3. Bernard is probably not a host, but the way Ford was talking to him in Ford's office made it seem like he was.
I doubt that.
1. I still doubt MiB is William. Especially with that last scene.
2. The ninjas who ganked Teddy were using melee weapons. We also know now that melee weapons are only allowed to certain hosts. We saw that host go nutso. Perhaps on the way to becoming a cultist?
3. Bernard is probably not a host, but the way Ford was talking to him in Ford's office made it seem like he was.
I doubt that.
chicko1983
Member
Yep, MiB is William In my opinion.
In the barn with the knife, MiB says "let's go over this again from the start" (or some thing similar).
Very next scene is of William in the town
In the barn with the knife, MiB says "let's go over this again from the start" (or some thing similar).
Very next scene is of William in the town
Why are people still confident in the Will is MiB theory after that final scene? Are people thinking it's an unrelated random wandering of Dolores (or an old storyline)?
I liked the theory (or at least, it's a flashback in general) but that last scene seemed to put a wrench in that. Granted, it's weird that with an episode about guests playing bounty hunting quests, that they didn't involve Will and his buddy in that storyline not only for screentime and devlopment purposes, but it would also allow for some interactions with Teddy that would make for interesting moments given both character's interest in Dolores. They do seem to be sequestering the character off for whatever reason, which is my only hope left for that theory.
I suppose it's likely we'll have answers next week. She will presumably be acting glitched out around them if it's current Dolores.
I liked the theory (or at least, it's a flashback in general) but that last scene seemed to put a wrench in that. Granted, it's weird that with an episode about guests playing bounty hunting quests, that they didn't involve Will and his buddy in that storyline not only for screentime and devlopment purposes, but it would also allow for some interactions with Teddy that would make for interesting moments given both character's interest in Dolores. They do seem to be sequestering the character off for whatever reason, which is my only hope left for that theory.
I suppose it's likely we'll have answers next week. She will presumably be acting glitched out around them if it's current Dolores.
JustSomeone
Member
Here goes the william is the man in black theory.
Dolores obviously meets william after she meets the man in black
Dolores obviously meets william after she meets the man in black
I hope it's not a different time span Dolores. If it is then the show is getting way too clever for their own good. After that the broader audience won't be able to get it, and it's cheap.
But I don't really have any reason to think the worst of it, so I'll assume Mib is not William and there's only the one time frame happening.
But I don't really have any reason to think the worst of it, so I'll assume Mib is not William and there's only the one time frame happening.
shira
Member
I'm just going with the idea that everyone is a host and this is all a fucked up simulation.
Well this show is pretty bad, and I suspect it's going to get much worse as time goes by.
Nolan and Abrams are already red flags, but the biggest issue is that the series basic philosophical and ethical questions are not gonna be interesting for more than a season, or maybe 2. But this being a TV series they're going to want to get a lot more seasons than that which means they either stretch out the questions for way too long or they'll have to majorly shake things up midway through. Although I suppose they could also just string everyone along with a bunch of other mysteries, which they seem to be doing, but does anyone care about the secret corporation aims? Does anyone think that 'the maze' won't turn out to be some stupid bullshit?
Not that any of that would really matter if the currently airing episodes were good enough. There are a number of issues I have:
- First and foremost are the narratives. I don't know if they're going for some weird meta thing, but it's impossible to be interested in the robot storylines. What's the point of following Teddie for 30 mins? We already know the rules of the show, that these tales play out every day in the same way. Similarly, what's the point of any of the action scenes? Host-only scenes are always 'fake' and you know everyone will just come back the next day. Guest action scenes have no tension because they can't be hurt - until the obvious twist scene where they do get hurt, but if everyone knows that that is going to happen it's pointless.
-Dialogue. Any back office scene that doesn't focus on host discussion is excruciating. I don't think Nolan can write such scenes without resorting entirely to cliches. I don't ever want to see that stupid writer bloke or head security woman again. This ties into
-Simplistic characterization. With more than 3 hours of screentime already, I would expect a bit more nuance than: This guy is bad. This guy is good. This guy is smart. Also the way they demonstrate that characterization is awful. People are smart because we are told they are. People are good because they don't kill and rape, people are bad because they do kill and rape. Except such things are only bad if the robots are conscious and can feel pain(why would they be programmed to feel pain?), otherwise they're no different from a grand theft auto player.
-Hopkins. Apparently he's decided the best way to play Ford is by doing a Malcolm McDowell impersonation. Or maybe McDowell has just been doing Anthony Hopkins impersonations for the last 15 years? I dunno. Either way its a waste.
-Too many characters. This has been brought up a lot already, so I don't think I need to go over it. I still don't know half the people's names.
-Shit science. Westworld is very soft sci-fi. A whole host of stuff is just completely implausible or going to be the result of very convoluted explanations (The entire park is actually in a massive dome! Also there's no space on earth so the dome is on the moon or some shit). And of course the exploration of AI and consciousness is mediocre. I expect this is not something most others would feel, since I have far more than a passing interest in the topic and its inevitable that entertainment shows won't be able to go into enough depth for me, but that doesn't mean I can just ignore it.
There's certainly some good stuff. Clearly the budget has been well spent, everything is pleasant to look at. Score is largely pretty good with the exception of that ridiculous action scene set to paint it black. Aside from Hopkins the casting is largely decent, only Harris stands out though.
To summarize: Most of an episode is just pointless filler. And if they aren't pointless filler, the dialogue is terrible. None of the characters are interesting, and they don't have good enough performances to carry interest either. Also I have no hope that any of the resolutions will be satisfying or well done.
Nolan and Abrams are already red flags, but the biggest issue is that the series basic philosophical and ethical questions are not gonna be interesting for more than a season, or maybe 2. But this being a TV series they're going to want to get a lot more seasons than that which means they either stretch out the questions for way too long or they'll have to majorly shake things up midway through. Although I suppose they could also just string everyone along with a bunch of other mysteries, which they seem to be doing, but does anyone care about the secret corporation aims? Does anyone think that 'the maze' won't turn out to be some stupid bullshit?
Not that any of that would really matter if the currently airing episodes were good enough. There are a number of issues I have:
- First and foremost are the narratives. I don't know if they're going for some weird meta thing, but it's impossible to be interested in the robot storylines. What's the point of following Teddie for 30 mins? We already know the rules of the show, that these tales play out every day in the same way. Similarly, what's the point of any of the action scenes? Host-only scenes are always 'fake' and you know everyone will just come back the next day. Guest action scenes have no tension because they can't be hurt - until the obvious twist scene where they do get hurt, but if everyone knows that that is going to happen it's pointless.
-Dialogue. Any back office scene that doesn't focus on host discussion is excruciating. I don't think Nolan can write such scenes without resorting entirely to cliches. I don't ever want to see that stupid writer bloke or head security woman again. This ties into
-Simplistic characterization. With more than 3 hours of screentime already, I would expect a bit more nuance than: This guy is bad. This guy is good. This guy is smart. Also the way they demonstrate that characterization is awful. People are smart because we are told they are. People are good because they don't kill and rape, people are bad because they do kill and rape. Except such things are only bad if the robots are conscious and can feel pain(why would they be programmed to feel pain?), otherwise they're no different from a grand theft auto player.
-Hopkins. Apparently he's decided the best way to play Ford is by doing a Malcolm McDowell impersonation. Or maybe McDowell has just been doing Anthony Hopkins impersonations for the last 15 years? I dunno. Either way its a waste.
-Too many characters. This has been brought up a lot already, so I don't think I need to go over it. I still don't know half the people's names.
-Shit science. Westworld is very soft sci-fi. A whole host of stuff is just completely implausible or going to be the result of very convoluted explanations (The entire park is actually in a massive dome! Also there's no space on earth so the dome is on the moon or some shit). And of course the exploration of AI and consciousness is mediocre. I expect this is not something most others would feel, since I have far more than a passing interest in the topic and its inevitable that entertainment shows won't be able to go into enough depth for me, but that doesn't mean I can just ignore it.
There's certainly some good stuff. Clearly the budget has been well spent, everything is pleasant to look at. Score is largely pretty good with the exception of that ridiculous action scene set to paint it black. Aside from Hopkins the casting is largely decent, only Harris stands out though.
To summarize: Most of an episode is just pointless filler. And if they aren't pointless filler, the dialogue is terrible. None of the characters are interesting, and they don't have good enough performances to carry interest either. Also I have no hope that any of the resolutions will be satisfying or well done.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
Yeah my problem with it so far is the story seems to be meandering.
wesleyshark
Banned
Most episodes are just pointless filler, 3 episodes in? Perhaps this show isn't for you.
Ah I misworded it, I meant that each individual episode is filled with fluff and 10minutes of something happening.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think this episode was significantly worse than the previous two. The big problem for me was how cheesy the dialogue turned this week. Elsie's snarker act in particular got annoying fast.
wesleyshark
Banned
I think it may be a bit early to conclude that a lot of what's happening is fluff. Again, we're only 3 episodes in with 7 to go, and of course many things will be left for later seasons.
To me, it seems like just about everything has been relevant in some way. This show moves at a breakneck pace for being a solid hour long.
andythinkpad
Member
That "robot killing himself with giant ass rock" moment reminded me of Lost. I bet it turn out to be basically a redirection with no relation to the main plot.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Abrams better not pull a Lost on this show or this is the last season I watch, just like I did with Lost.
What does this mean?
Do you think he's actively working on this show (or really any show he's been attached to in years beyond getting it off the ground)? He's clearly not. It's Nolan's baby.
What did Abrams pull on Lost other than directing and producing a kickass pilot which allowed the actual creative team to expand on into a multi-season TV series? And what is Abrams doing on this show?
bggrthnjsus
Member
i am pretty into the william bro-cation storyline...don't think he's the MiB
also i am surprisingly ok w/ the elsie nerd/jock duo, it is surprisingly hilarious (unintentionally or maybe not?)
also i am surprisingly ok w/ the elsie nerd/jock duo, it is surprisingly hilarious (unintentionally or maybe not?)
wesleyshark
Banned
This comment makes no sense. Please elaborate.
I have no idea what he has done, but I bet he is as involved in the show as he was in Person of Interest, which I didn't know of until halfway through/close to the end of the show.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
It wasn't really serious, I know Abrams is just the producer.
Scattershot thoughts:
No offense to you people but what I like the least about this show are these dumb theories popping up.
- Young CGI Anthony Hopkins was awesome
- Just realized Dolores's story is literally a rape fantasy. Honestly, this place is fucked up.
- This episode was pretty slowly paced and all over the map (and with a considerable amount of meh exposition), but it really came together at the last moment. I can't wait for when Dolores fully gains sentience, I wonder what her reaction is going to be.
- That stray dude caving in his own head was just screwed up. The fuck.
No offense to you people but what I like the least about this show are these dumb theories popping up.
andythinkpad
Member
Agreed with what you said and I just want to expand on them. The basic narrative of the whole season is very predictable. The writers don't even try to create a "will them or won't them" guessing game with the audience. Even people just passively watching in the background know the story is going toward the robot rebellion direction. Where is the tension, where is the suspension? Basically there is no bone the audience can hold on to.
Secondly there is nobody in the show I can root for. At this point I am only watching it for Sir Anthony Hopkins to exercise his acting chops and... Trevor! Bernard does nothing for me as a character. He is the most fucking boring scientist trope.
It gets worse. You get a Dolores waking up scene or three in every episode. Pretty soon you won't be able to tell if you are watching a new or an old episode. Also, western shootouts in the town. Why would anyone care about new shootouts in new episodes? It's basically bathroom break.
He is the only actor who keep me watching the show.
I think the fundamental problem here is that the show creators want to make sci-fi-ish show. They probably want sci-fi explanation as part of their narrative tools. That's well and good. However you can not make a sci-fi show without a fair and consistent set of sci-fi rules both the show writers and the audience agree on from the start.
This show can't even establish consistent prop gun rules. Ok you have these guns/bullets that only kill hosts but not guest? Ok how do you have a scene where a guest get knocked on the ground by prop guns purely by kinetic force? And no visible damage to the skin afterward? So is it a kinetic energy based prop gun or not? How the hell can you run a giant theme park, and let the guest run loose with these guns? What is preventing a drunk guest shoot his gun to another guest and shoot out his eyes? How are guest responsible to the guest on guest killing if he can't tell the guests from the hosts? How much is the insurance coverage?
If you have a short scene of guest signing releases promising they don't shoot at anyone's eyes, it would at least make the prop gun rules consistent and make the park slightly more realistic. Although I don't see how you can let minor go into the park in any day except the "family day."
There are other things that gets on my nerves. For example, there are so much damages to the robots everyday, and they need human technicians to do most of the repair? How is that logistically and financially possible? How much park budget is used for robot repair? If you have a little scene that show robot arms can do the repair or the robots can be patches up easily, that would make sense. Even the part where the dead robots are retrieved by the human technicians annoys me. It would be so much more cost effective to make robots retrieve them. They are the most simple tasks.
Anyway these are the questions people who are watching a hard sci-fi show would be asking. This show wants to have the cake and eat it by hand waving the hard science topics. And it's making the show very boring.
Okay so... Arnold is supposed to be Ford's partner who helped create all the tech in the park. Arnold supposedly died early on enough that he was completely scrubbed from public memory. He died in the park, suggesting there was an accident. Now, we can either infer that this is the "incident" 30 years ago, or another incident earlier than that, since it can't have been more recent than 30 years ago based on what we've been told.
Does this mean the hosts which are bugging out and hearing "voices" were remembering Arnold when he was still alive? Are they all really old hosts? Or... does it suggest that Arnold has managed to somehow implant himself into the system, acting as a sort of consciousness layer that can be unlocked? Is the voice Dolores hears Arnold's?
Does this mean the hosts which are bugging out and hearing "voices" were remembering Arnold when he was still alive? Are they all really old hosts? Or... does it suggest that Arnold has managed to somehow implant himself into the system, acting as a sort of consciousness layer that can be unlocked? Is the voice Dolores hears Arnold's?
Discotheque
Banned
Each one as fuckin bland as the next. Maybe we can get Dr. Ford to make some improvements on the Hemsworth clan while he's at it
I see something like this and it makes me think you aren't really processing what the show is giving you, because everything the hosts do is important, and this episode demonstrated that the most clearly so far. The very core of the show is essentially about this idea.
The hosts are designed to be wiped clean for each loop, yes, but that is beginning to stop happening now! They are remembering stuff from their past roles, from their past loops, and becoming self aware and using those memories to form entirely new thoughts and ideas and take new actions. This is Dolores' entire character arc so far. The reason you spend time with Teddy is so you can see what his loop is, so you can see what he's forced into each and every day, and so when he does become self aware you see what he's been through and understand his new motivations, OR if he doesn't become self aware you understand why that's so devastating to Dolores.
The action scenes with guests aren't supposed to be filled with tension on the part of the guests. What you should be thinking isn't that the guests aren't going to get hurt, but what will the hosts do when they remember all the shit the guests have done to them. This is what the Man in Black represents so far. All of his action scenes have been less to do with the idea he might suffer and more to do with the suffering he doles out.
William's scene this episode was a bit different, in that the tension wasn't about whether he would get hurt but whether he would take that first step in becoming the new him, or more accurately embracing who he has been all along.
Jag
Member
Yeah, I'm into it on a pretty superficial level. Not worrying about theories within theories, just trying to get a sense of where the overall story is going.
By the way, Evan Rachel Wood is fucking killing it on this show. She has this amazing, subtle nuance she can do with only her face and not uttering a single word, when Bernard boots her from a diagnostic test back to her "park ready" state. She seemlessly, naturally, and believably transitions from a cold dead stare to a person of warmth, within 4 seconds, entirely with her face. Amazing piece of acting.
Abrams only produced and directed a few episodes of Lost in the beginning, the rest of the wandering, nonsensical plot was all Lindelof.
newtypepilot
Member
I don't think William is MiB, but I do think MiB is related or knows about Arnold, and that's what he has been searching for. Arnold's death is probably the incident 30 years ago.
Also poor teddy, he's pretty much the Kenny of Westworld.
One thing that strike me as odd is how William gets "shot". The bullets are strong enough to knock him back and leave a mark, yet when teddy shot at the MiB in the pilot, the bullets just bounce off of him.
Also poor teddy, he's pretty much the Kenny of Westworld.
One thing that strike me as odd is how William gets "shot". The bullets are strong enough to knock him back and leave a mark, yet when teddy shot at the MiB in the pilot, the bullets just bounce off of him.
More_Badass
Member
1) That's not the story, and that's why the "writers don't even try to create a "will them or won't them" guessing game with the audience". You're watching the wrong show if you're expecting that. The story is about following this new species evolve and find their place in the world, not if they will or won't rebel
2) Does it really matter how much insurance coverage is or how the guns can break windows? Often sci-fi uses the sci-fi for thematic purpose, not hard sci-fi. Like Godzilla could never exist, and completely breaks the laws of physics, but that doesn't matter in the context of the story being told.
Yeah she's great.
I understand your point, but there are 2 problems:
1 is pacing. You really don't need lengthy scenes to show the damage being done to the hosts, the show pretty much established this in the first episode. The audience is already fully aware of this point and you don't need to spend more than 5 minutes on Teddy's storyline to get what's happened. Just Hopkins conversation accomplished most of what was needed. The way the rest of the his scenes were shot in the episode gave the distinct impression that you were supposed to care about Teddy's story without regard to any overarching narrative or character details, like you were supposed to be invested in his 'revenge' against Wyatt even though you know it's all programmed to go one particular way.
So the pacing of the show is screwed up, by spending way too long on this stuff.
The second thing I wanted to talk about was again related to the scientific aspect; I began to write out a reply but it was becoming so long and complicated that I realized it would take me like half a day to write it properly. Probably not worth mentioning.
I'll just say this: Art, as a concept, does not exist soley to build tension based on character deaths and I'm getting pretty annoyed with that assumption floating around about everything, haha
Also, this Groundhog Day shit is gonn pay off in pretty obvious ways, but the anticipation for that payoff and when/how it develops is interesting for me. The "point" of a lot of this is seemingly novelistic and that's fine.
Come the fuck on. It wasn't ALL Lindelof. Carlton Cuse exists too you know!!!!
Neverwinter27
Member
So who is going to be revealed to be actually a robot for the penultimate episode plot twist?
Was the host missing for two days or did the host spend those two days carving those statues/stars/map found in the camp before going missing?
What if MiB is actually
Ford did say that the robots passed the Turing test within a week so it's possible.
Arnold and Ford just said he's dead because he can't bring himself to leaving park. MiB says he's been at this for 30 years and seems to be looking for something. Ford also mentions he obsessed too much and sort of lost his way.
Ford did say that the robots passed the Turing test within a week so it's possible.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I don't quite get complaints that the show's handling of machine consciousness is simplistic. One of the central themes seems to be exploring if the Turing test is actually a valid determinant of consciousness. The test is always described in terms of being a measure of "intelligence", but by nature it is not some measure of computational sophistication but of how closely a machine can process, react, and respond as a human does
The "Turing test" tends to become this abstracted thing that delineates if we "succeeded" and made a good AI or not, and that's where it tends to stop; if it can talk like a human, we assume its smart. This show is already showing that it has a lot more on its mind. As I see it, there are two possible things the show is arguing:
1.) that as Ford says the robots are not conscious. This begs the question: if they demonstrate self awareness, creative improvisation and highly abstract processing of reality (Dolores is capable of picking up on abstract themes in literary passages for crying out loud) to such degrees that they appear human, just what new development will make them conscious? If the show has an answer to that, it will be an interesting one!
2.) that Ford is wrong, the robots are conscious already and their obedience to programming doesn't wipe away the fact that they're still sapient beings. In this case both the memory wipes and the nature of the park are monstrous (if not for the easily repaired violence then for the slavery and increasingly obvious trauma), and the question the show will try and answer will be "what changes to make us (their creators) finally realize this", which is also interesting!
The "Turing test" tends to become this abstracted thing that delineates if we "succeeded" and made a good AI or not, and that's where it tends to stop; if it can talk like a human, we assume its smart. This show is already showing that it has a lot more on its mind. As I see it, there are two possible things the show is arguing:
1.) that as Ford says the robots are not conscious. This begs the question: if they demonstrate self awareness, creative improvisation and highly abstract processing of reality (Dolores is capable of picking up on abstract themes in literary passages for crying out loud) to such degrees that they appear human, just what new development will make them conscious? If the show has an answer to that, it will be an interesting one!
2.) that Ford is wrong, the robots are conscious already and their obedience to programming doesn't wipe away the fact that they're still sapient beings. In this case both the memory wipes and the nature of the park are monstrous (if not for the easily repaired violence then for the slavery and increasingly obvious trauma), and the question the show will try and answer will be "what changes to make us (their creators) finally realize this", which is also interesting!
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
People's assumptions about Abram's involvement with LOST is one of the many amazing things about watching LOST.
This show is phenomenal, btw. It's so genius about presenting its "HBO stuff" (sex, violence) as explicitly extraneous and in many ways distracting from the point of the show/journey/"storyline".
It's like someone took that Season Premiere line from the Sopranos, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." and turned it into an entire series.
Very necessary for our Trumped-Up Trickle Down America.
The meta-commentary in the second episodes I thought was very explicit about that but seemingly nobody else thought so.
Veritigo_X
Member
Where these two people guests?
The woman seemed pretty obvious based on how she was acting (and host interactions with her), but I'm not sure about the other guy.
Woman who went bounty hunting with Teddy
"Guy who wanted it easy" hanging out with bandits harassing Delores
"Guy who wanted it easy" hanging out with bandits harassing Delores
The woman seemed pretty obvious based on how she was acting (and host interactions with her), but I'm not sure about the other guy.