Ha-ha, don't let me discourage you further then. If you're reading for the characters it's still very enjoyable and there's one plot thread that is awesome/interesting. Just... An odd way to write book 5 after what happened in book 4.
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What are you reading? (June 2015)
- Thread starter Maklershed
- Start date
RepairmanJack
Member
That's what I'm assuming it is, and most the time it comes over as pretty cheesy, at least in this particular example. Not so much the stuff about the child murders, because it kind of flows into the narrative, but the stuff with dark presenses and stuff about the canal just seems so heavy handed and wink winky that it's just fan service to a certain extent. That's mostly why I've been just blowing past most of it figuring it doesn't have much to do with this book itself.
karmaforgotme
Member
There is nothing more than a nod to IT in 11/22/63 (there is also a nod to IT in Tommyknockers), and it has nothing really to do with the story.
foomfoom415
Member
Yeah, as someone who hasn't read IT, the references in 11/22/63 were really awkwardly done and out of place.
Is this the cover for the UK, or something? Way better than the one for the US.
This just arrived, can't wait to get stuck in. It's been too long (9 years!) since Barker's last adult novel.
I'm about halfway through this and, yeah, I don't know, not very impressed so far. It almost feels like the Cliff's Notes version of a longer book.
karmaforgotme
Member
I just passed page 170, and I have a love/hate relationship with the book so far. One chapter I find great, while the next I am like this is not that good.
While I never found Clive Barker to be a great novelist (I think this is the 5th or so novel I've read from him), I do find the Books of Blood to be a collection of masterpieces of short fiction.
Also that cover almost makes me want to buy the book again if I could find that cover.
Plasticine
Member
That is the trade hardcover UK edition. The book used to be the size of Imagica, but Clive decided to cut it down. He felt the longer version wandered too much and he decided he preferred a rawer and faster paced novel. Some of that material will be included in manuscript format in the deluxe edition coming out in the fall.
Just finished amazing amazing amazing "I am pilgrim" by Terry Hayes. The only spy thriller I've read in a long time that starts good and stays excellent through the end.
On that note, someone please recommend me another well written spy thriller (I love patterson, cussler, bell, etc. But don't exactly consider them to be "well written" in the sense that I am Pilgrim is)
On that note, someone please recommend me another well written spy thriller (I love patterson, cussler, bell, etc. But don't exactly consider them to be "well written" in the sense that I am Pilgrim is)
Yep I kept going and and it's getting better
(with the Nasa viewpoint)
sparky2112
Member
If you think The Martian's writing is awful, you haven't read enough.
Seriously, though, awful? How so? Do you not read a lot of 1st person? I was perfectly fine with the writing, and nobody else has seemed to mention it, either.
I don't see why they're mutually exclusive. Ishmael, when not giving lectures on whales, was largely concerned with the extolling of the virtues of whalesmen, comparing them to knights and royalty. There is hardly a woman to be spotted in the entire plot, the only major one being Aunt Charity. Near the finale of the book, Starbuck implores Ahab to abandon his hunt and return to his wife, who Ahab describes as a "widow with her husband alive".
What is this if not a perfect example of America's romantic image of an insatiable, pioneering masculinity?
EDIT: Finished Lathe of Heaven. I like the premise but the dialogue was kind of overladen with stiff exposition. Wasn't a huge fan of it overall. Not nearly as thoughtful as most of her other stories, and kind of bogged down by all the dream mysticism near the end.
Next:
Maklershed
Member
I actually wanted to make a post asking if anyone who has read Finders Keepers spotted any Easter eggs? It's the first book in awhile where one hasn't jumped out at me. Btw King even references Joes books. He for sure references Charlie Manx from NOS4A2 in Dr. Sleep.
And as for 11/22/63 unless I'm mistaken I feel like the end sequence takes place in Derry doesn't it? And that's the town where It takes place.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Uhhhh, the whale sinks the ship, killing everybody on board except for Ishmael, and drags Ahab to the depths to drown. He's a great character, much depth to him and his place in the whole thing, but the book doesn't glorify him or his quest. We may see moments of admiration from Ishmael, but those are subverted by the larger arc of the book.
As for the women: 90% of the book takes place on a 19th Century whaling vessel, what do you expect? The depiction of masculinity is realistic, for sure, but it's pretty well removed from and above a Hemingwayan extolling of masculine virtue. The perspective is much closer to that of Herzogian futility than a Romantic fantasy.
Edit: Having read The Lathe of Heaven and The Left Hand of Darkness, the former is far superior. Those are all I've read from her, however.
By the very ending of the book, sure. But I don't see his failure as a slight against Ahab's quest at all. Rather, it's the acknowledgement of a truly insurmountable force, embodied in the whale, whatever you believe it to be.
And throughout the book there are numerous examples of, I don't know how to describe it, but "brotherhood", the kind that frequently rears its head in masculine stories; homosocial relationships that run as deep, or deeper, than matrimony, or so its portrayed. Maybe romance is the wrong word to use here?
I didn't expect anything else. But I am confused with your objection to my description when the subject matter demands an almost entirely masculine perspective. I just found it hard to care about whales and whaling, though I appreciate the veracity of it, because the romance (not Romance) of sailors (a classically male occupation) and the sea do not really resonate with the kind of person I am.
Also I'm curious as to what are the political aspects of Moby Dick you mentioned. Comedy, poetry and philosophy, yes, I agree wholeheartedly there. But politics? I would say the closest it comes to politics is its description of the history and state of the international whaling industry, which seems more economic than political.
Disagree. Most of the ideas in Lathe of Heaven are half-formed, although that might play into the whole theme of dream and unreality. Left Hand of Darkness was exceptionally well crafted, however, even by her standards. I have a distaste for mysticism in my sci-fi though, which is a rather recent thing so that's why my reaction to it was kind of negative. It just reminded me too strongly of Childhood's End, a book I've come to dislike as my tastes have changed.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
I've got a new book coming out this week.
It's called No Harm Can Come To A Good Man, and it's a slight-future SF political thriller about algorithms and data prediction and psychological torment. (Cheery!)
This is the American cover:
and this is the UK one:
It's going to be available everywhere (including, if you're flying in or from the US, in a 3 for 2 in Hudson airport bookshops).
Some people said this about it:
A writer of bold imagination and verve Lauren Beukes
Savage, intimate and inexorable Nick Harkaway
A writer with a preternaturally powerful and distinctive voice Guardian
Smythes storytelling is pacey and addictive; he has a fiendish talent for springing surprises The Times
'A truly thought-provoking thriller that remains a page turner right to the end' Booklist
'No Harm may be the best political thriller since The Manchurian Candidate' Pornokitsch
Fully formed, fundamentally affecting, forward-thinking fiction. The sort of story that reminds us why we read Tor.com
I hope it's okay to post this. It's obviously total self-promo, but dear god there are so few other ways to sell books these days.
This is the US Amazon page for the book, should you wish to kindle it and help me out something ridiculous. First week sales are everything.
/self promo ends
I'm trying my damnedest to kindle it but it won't let me.
RepairmanJack
Member
I'm a little of a quarter through so far and a lot of it has taken place in Derry so far.
It's not so much the references themselves are what's weird, as they're expected at this point, but the way they're brought up in 11/22/63 just seems so weird and different from the rest of the book. One thing that has stood out is it's almost always accompanied by the main character referencing the fact that you're reading something he is writing. He'll say "My time and Derry was weird and I can tell you about that, but it was still no weirder than this one spot in town..."
It just instantly feels out of place and almost forced in a way.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
The Left Hand of Darkness is far more half-baked in its ideas on gender and the like, not to mention rather rote and plain in its crafting of its prose, whereas The Lathe of Heaven works exceptionally well as a poetical depiction of a dreamy reality
. Not to mention that it has real characters, with discernible personalities, and some real moments of humor, and goes to far more unexpected places, narratively and philosophically whereas TLHoD is much more plodding, banality-filled, and predictable.
Edit: Moby-Dick is not directly political, but it's basically the most cogent depiction of the deadendedness of the American fetishization of commerce, in any medium.
The exception I was taking is that the masculinity is just a feature of the story, not the point. It's about bigger ideas that suffuse human experience more generally, and it's a shame to see someone set that aside because they don't care for the milieu that's used to convey it.
For those who are interested, there's a truly incredible PBS documentary - Into the Deep: America, Whaling, and the World that goes into both American whaling and Moby-Dick, with several exceptional readings of passages from the book.
which is fitting, given it's the fantasy of a dying man
Edit: Moby-Dick is not directly political, but it's basically the most cogent depiction of the deadendedness of the American fetishization of commerce, in any medium.
The exception I was taking is that the masculinity is just a feature of the story, not the point. It's about bigger ideas that suffuse human experience more generally, and it's a shame to see someone set that aside because they don't care for the milieu that's used to convey it.
For those who are interested, there's a truly incredible PBS documentary - Into the Deep: America, Whaling, and the World that goes into both American whaling and Moby-Dick, with several exceptional readings of passages from the book.
Personalities she didn't hesitate in describing in exact detail through the narration. I don't approve of this kind of characterization, if you can call it such.
Personalities should be inferred, not enumerated, unless you're playing a D&D campaign.
Example:
The Lathe of Heaven said:
And again, here:
I don't even know where to begin with this one:
I get it, Le Guin, Lelache was a strong, independent black woman (but internally fragile), and Orr was the middle-way personified, the perfect duality of the Daoist mysticism you're so fond of and which appears in your fiction time and time again. I get it!
That's the thing, it wasn't, in my experience, unexpected. It may be because of my history of media consumption but the breaking down of borders between dream and reality and the restoration of balance is a recurring motif in my library! I've read almost all of Le Guin's books before reaching Lathe of Heaven, so with the blessingcurse of hindsight I know she can do better than this (because she has). Thus, I only see incompleteness in Lathe of Heaven.
Ditto, I do see a Kindle Sample under the author page though, so I might give that a quick glimpse. Though I suppose I actually AM flying this weekend (for once...), may see how it is in the hudson stores.
Also, looks like Amazon has a listing for a version from May 2014 listed? What's up with that?
Yeah, I can't say I enjoyed Lathe of Heaven as much as her other works. I don't know what it was exactly. It did feel different from her other novels, despite following some of the same themes as her other stuff.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Telling, rather than showing, is fine, if done well and in the service of a worthwhile story. Vonnegut told whole novels, as did Hesse.
This is Creative Writing 101 silliness. There are many different possible kinds of characterization, and you act as though there aren't aspects of the character's personalities that can be inferred in addition to what is specifically told.
That's Haber's perception, and the shallowness of the observation as compared to the reality of the characters is telling.
Again, it's the fact that Haber looks at the situation in such terms that is important, not what is being said. Not to mention,
given the whole thing is likely Orr's dying fantasy, with the different characters as split instantiations of his own self-perception, what it really is, on a larger level, is one sense in which Orr perceives himself.
That particular passage is not one of the stronger ones in the book, but that's a pretty reductive way of looking at both characters.
First of all, there are few books, regardless of genre, that do it as economically and well, mixing a dreaminess with a certain sense of realism and plausibility.
Secondly, things like the floating, yet strangely insightful turtle aliens, or the use of the Beatles song as a window into Orr's deepening understanding of the situation, etc. are not predictable even in the context of the kind of fiction you're describing.
Thirdly, "the breaking down of borders between dream and reality and the restoration of balance" is not what happens in the book. Again, even setting aside the meta perspective that
the whole thing is the dying fantasy of the victim of a thermonuclear war
Edit: And I don't disagree that TLoH is not perfect, but compared to the faux-spirituality and paucity of character development that is TLHoD, it's far more poetic and immediate, not to mention better and more deeply-sketched in its ideas. Le Guin is an idea writer, not so much a dramatic one, and TLHoD never really gets into the depths of the world nor plot. It's a far more egregious example of 60s fetishization of Zen and Eastern mysticism and all that jazz, right down to the title.
AngmarsKing701
Member
Finished As You Wish by Cary Elwes. A delightful glimpse behind the scenes of the making The Princess Bride, which is one of my favorite movies. It's a quick read, very nostalgic. I liked it a lot.
Someone asked that I post my opinion of Wallace Shawn, who played Vizzini. It's clear he had an inferiority complex, that he was worried about being replaced. Also pretty clear he is a particular actor with some interesting idiosyncrasies, which were apparently set off during filming. He comes across as a little neurotic or OCD, but frankly I thought it was good to have someone who didn't gush about everything.
That being said, it's clear those involved had an absolute blast making the movie, and I think that comes across in the final product.
Now moving on to Disenchanted by Robert Kroese.
Someone asked that I post my opinion of Wallace Shawn, who played Vizzini. It's clear he had an inferiority complex, that he was worried about being replaced. Also pretty clear he is a particular actor with some interesting idiosyncrasies, which were apparently set off during filming. He comes across as a little neurotic or OCD, but frankly I thought it was good to have someone who didn't gush about everything.
That being said, it's clear those involved had an absolute blast making the movie, and I think that comes across in the final product.
Now moving on to Disenchanted by Robert Kroese.
Amazon finally fixed their technical issues and I got my library books. I am planning to read Age of Ambition (last year's non-fiction winner of the NBA), and Bad Feminist. Amazon was crazy nice with my concerns and threw me 10 Kindle bucks. I wasn't expecting that but it'll be nice to use for some obscure book in the future.
TequilaHero
Neo Member
It's still hard to tell who wrote what, but I would guess that Pratchett wrote the footnotes, or most of them.
In one of the forwards I believe the division was:
Supernatural: Gaiman
Real people/kids: Pratchett
Of course it wasn't a clear divide and their styles are close enough that they're nearly indistinguishable from the other.
Supernatural: Gaiman
Real people/kids: Pratchett
Of course it wasn't a clear divide and their styles are close enough that they're nearly indistinguishable from the other.
TequilaHero
Neo Member
I missed that in my version, but I'll buy that, thanks.
Will be interesting to envision while reading the rest, but really, I don't care that much. It's like you said, they are very similar in writing style.
I have found, though, that Pratchett tends to be a little more silly. But, I have only read The Sandman from Gaiman so far.
TequilaHero
Neo Member
I love Gaiman, but his characters are pretty emo at times haha
Not to be harsh, but the effect is a bit of a watering down of each style. It's hard to explain, but somehow underwhelming me. It makes me feel guilty and insane for feeling this way because they are both so great.
They did mention in the Intro that, although it was fun, they wouldn't be doing it EVER again. =D
Also, I love The Princess Bride! Would love to read the book sometime. The one you read sounds fun.
Have you ever read The Neverending Story by Michael Ende? I think you might love it. =)
As usual I said I was going to read something then went and read something entirely different.
First, I forget who it was but back when I originally planned on reading this someone here recommended Hundred Thousand Kingdoms instead which is an infinitely better book, so thanks.
I enjoyed reading Graceling but it also had so many issues that I'm not sure I could really recommend it. The characters are pretty two dimensional but still likeable, the world is pretty interesting and the fact that it's essentially fantasy X-Men was pretty cool.
However, things like the pacing were horrible. For example, Katsa and Po go through what feels should be a whole romance arc in literally a handful of pages. They meet, flirt, fight, hook up, betray each other, break up and get back together in literally 5-10 pages. Given the complexities of both of their world's and plans it felt rather rushed so that when they finally start adventuring they have an unbreakable bond of love because they hooked up that one time. Entire characters and Kingdoms are treated this way, with even the main villain being built up for only a couple of chapters before he dies, his motivations and plans completely unexplained or even hinted at
It all just feels rushed and because Katsa is essentially immortal there's never any real hindrances or threats.
It was still alright to read but I do feel that Hundred Thousand Kingdoms handles similar themes significantly better.
Anyway, this time I'm actually going to take a stab at All Quiet On The Western Front.
First, I forget who it was but back when I originally planned on reading this someone here recommended Hundred Thousand Kingdoms instead which is an infinitely better book, so thanks.
I enjoyed reading Graceling but it also had so many issues that I'm not sure I could really recommend it. The characters are pretty two dimensional but still likeable, the world is pretty interesting and the fact that it's essentially fantasy X-Men was pretty cool.
However, things like the pacing were horrible. For example, Katsa and Po go through what feels should be a whole romance arc in literally a handful of pages. They meet, flirt, fight, hook up, betray each other, break up and get back together in literally 5-10 pages. Given the complexities of both of their world's and plans it felt rather rushed so that when they finally start adventuring they have an unbreakable bond of love because they hooked up that one time. Entire characters and Kingdoms are treated this way, with even the main villain being built up for only a couple of chapters before he dies, his motivations and plans completely unexplained or even hinted at
I did like his death a lot though.
It was still alright to read but I do feel that Hundred Thousand Kingdoms handles similar themes significantly better.
Anyway, this time I'm actually going to take a stab at All Quiet On The Western Front.
As usual I said I was going to read something then went and read something entirely different.
First, I forget who it was but back when I originally planned on reading this someone here recommended Hundred Thousand Kingdoms instead which is an infinitely better book, so thanks.
I enjoyed reading Graceling but it also had so many issues that I'm not sure I could really recommend it. The characters are pretty two dimensional but still likeable, the world is pretty interesting and the fact that it's essentially fantasy X-Men was pretty cool.
However, things like the pacing were horrible. For example, Katsa and Po go through what feels should be a whole romance arc in literally a handful of pages. They meet, flirt, fight, hook up, betray each other, break up and get back together in literally 5-10 pages. Given the complexities of both of their world's and plans it felt rather rushed so that when they finally start adventuring they have an unbreakable bond of love because they hooked up that one time. Entire characters and Kingdoms are treated this way, with even the main villain being built up for only a couple of chapters before he dies, his motivations and plans completely unexplained or even hinted atIt all just feels rushed and because Katsa is essentially immortal there's never any real hindrances or threats.I did like his death a lot though.
It was still alright to read but I do feel that Hundred Thousand Kingdoms handles similar themes significantly better.
Anyway, this time I'm actually going to take a stab at All Quiet On The Western Front.
Lol, I think that was actually me but that must've been at least two years ago. Glad to know you liked the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms though
DesertEater
Member
Interesting exchange. I would also like to mention Edward Said's excellent introduction to Moby-Dick. If you read the book, it's definitely worth reading. It brings up the political aspects of the book, and other things that I found very interesting.
I will check out the documentary as it was hard not to be interested in whaling after reading Moby-Dick.
I also read TLHOD and thought it was amazing. I will sure check out this other book you're mentioning.
Next:
Reading this right now!
I'm enjoying it, but beware his views on women. They are somewhat......derisive.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
Nietzsche is sort of infamous for it, but I never understood why a lot of people insists on taking the lines on women so literally as opposed to the general sentiment expressed on behalf of "mankind" and "the last men" etc in Nietzsche's work. This is a book which basically expresses a desire for mankind to go under, to go over, to disappear, to turn into something else entirely. There's been lots of vulgar interpretations on this - partly because of Nietzsche's sister, her rearranging and falsification of unpublished material etc after his death - perhaps best exemplified by how it became part of the racist ideology of Nazism. Yet today most Nietzsche scholars and readers wouldn't dream of interpreting him in this direction. But his treatment of women more often than not continues to be interpreted quite literally for some reason.
As a side note, I think Zarathustra is marvelous work, but definitely one of the worst or most demanding entry points if you want to get into Nietzschean philosophy.
I found that I am not fully sure how he viewed women. Sometimes I think he's being allegorical, but then there's a sentence here or there where he just puts them down as some sort of lesser person.
It's funny because those sections seem to put me off and when I think he's just annoyed me too much he comes out with a brilliant chapter like The Stillest Hour which pulls me back in again.
It's funny because those sections seem to put me off and when I think he's just annoyed me too much he comes out with a brilliant chapter like The Stillest Hour which pulls me back in again.
Imp the Dimp
Member
I'm currently ~400 pages into the first Expanse book "Leviathan Wakes" and I'm starting to get tired of it tbh. It's a decent page turner but it's hardly groundbreaking.
GentlemanCrow
Member
Just finished Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and Snow Crash. Going to start Neuromancer today while I'm still on a cyberpunk kick.
Finished Nemesis Games last night. I absolutely loved it. The story went places that I didn't expect, and there was tons of great character development. The events of the book struck me as very logical and understandable in regards to the events that have happened in previous novels. Really stoked for where the series is going in the future.
Maklershed
Member
Finished Finders Keepers (there was a reference to Shawshank Redemption near the end) and starting The Echo
The Echo by James Smythe
The Echo by James Smythe
I've been reading it the past two nights and have had to force myself to put the book down and go to bed. Fantastic book that's been both parts exciting and hilarious.
This is my next book to read. We have our graduation ceremony tonight, so I should be able to start this weekend.
This is the base assumption I'm going with. That, compensating for the gulf in progressive social thinking, "Overman" simply refers to humans in general and not men specifically.
I'm not interested in the philosophy so much as the writing and form. In my edition, there was a lengthy intro already making note of the contradictions within his ideas so I'm just going to treat it as poetry/prose.
ShooterMcTavish
Banned
I am thinking about reading Jurassic Park, anyone here read it? Heard great things and it's supposedly much different then movie.
P.S I am new here and I'm not sure how to add images to my post. Can anyone help?
P.S I am new here and I'm not sure how to add images to my post. Can anyone help?
I really liked Imajica but, yeah, his short stories are often better than his novels.
Well, there it is. Kind of wish he would release an unabridged version, though that might exacerbate the adjective fatigue I'm feeling reading through it. Lots of purplish prose to explain architecture and erections.