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[SousedLouse]

They didn't hire "writers".

I don't know what's involved in quicklooks, so I just went with writers. I got through 5 pages of the 20+ or so that seem to be talking about it in the GB thread before I posted in this one, and that was my handle on things so far. I thought they made videos and stuff, and that usually gets done by writers on most sites anyway. If they're more like producers, then that's my mistake. Sorry.

The issue is that this particular criticism makes NO SENSE when lobbied at Giant Bomb. People are picking the worst possible target to make a very real point, and devaluing the argument as a whole.

You think they're gonna get cut any slack because of anything they've done before? There's no tally for criticism - you don't get credit just because you avoid stuffing your foot in your mouth every now and then.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

I'm confused. How is she really loud and stubborn? Youtube videos where she explains her points in the nicest way possible?

1) While I get why she does it, she disables her comments
2) Brings up ingame evidence and molds it to fix her arguments (sometimes, not always)
3) Called Rainbox 6 sexist despite having men and women in all sides of the game (there is a twitter quote some where).

and?

I'd like to hear a woman on the podcast once in a while, diversity is nice.

To be fair I think every once and a while they do, but I'm not totally sure. Last time I can think of them having women on was during this e3 and they had that Scottish lady and the TF community manager.

 

[Cartman86]

I'm confused. How is she really loud and stubborn? Youtube videos where she explains her points in the nicest way possible?

"Woman with an opinion that differs from mine."

 

[iMax]

That's not up to me or you. What CBS does in response to this is out of our hands. They're adults and can likely make decisions outside of the din of scandal and so forth.

I'm not really sure why a potential change to a diversity policy has you worried.

Because it's better for everyone to avoid situations like this.

 

[Zeyphersan]

The issue is that this particular criticism makes NO SENSE when lobbied at Giant Bomb. People are picking the worst possible target to make a very real point, and devaluing the argument as a whole.

It makes complete sense lobbied at Giant Bomb, what are you talking about? This is a company (yes, a company, not a group of friend sitting around drinking beers and making videos for the hell of it) made up exclusively of white guys, who just hired two more white guys. This is in no way the "worst possible target". It's a very valid target.

 

[Kinyou]

No one has said this.

But wouldn't that be the result?

"We could hire these two guys, but they're white and male, let's hire someone who isn't white or male instead"

 

[Cygnus]

This is ridiculous, morons on both sides.

 

[Fevaweva]

I posted basically this in the other thread as well.

Giant Bomb was not in a position to take chances on hiring people new to the industry.
Ryan died last year, and Vinny just left for NY, that left GB down to Brad and Jeff, and poor Drew pulling double duty. The suffered significantly with the lose of Ryan, and with Vinny leaving, it would be been dire. GB is a personality driven website, where most of the content is video and audio, they need people experienced with this, and people that are fun, and have great chemistry with the rest of the crew.

They specifically needed people to help fill the void that Ryan and Vinny left.

Dan just so happens to be good friends with Jeff, a super funny dude, and he has loads of experience doing exactly what GB does, making quality video content for GameInformer.
Jason is his friend, and his video producer that helped him with his video content.

The two of them together are basically a dream hire, the absolute best people they could have hired.

Maybe sometime down the line when they are in a better position, they can take some chances on hiring some new people and train them, but right now was not that time.

This is something I wish more people understood tbh

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Wasn't Leigh Alexander on GB's E3 livestream a few years back? I figured she'd be cool with then or something.

Did they have a falling out or something?

That's the very same stream they had a falling out on.

 

[Ozium]

If Samantha Allen's natural response to a reasoned argument is "Fuck Off" then I wouldn't hire her either... how is this surprising?

 

[iMax]

This. Sounds like some reverse attempt at discrimination to me.

Of course it is. Their ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation — whatever, is out of their hands and is entirely irrelevant as far as job performance goes. Their skill set, is not. Hire accordingly.

 

[Wrestlemania]

She blocks all comments and ratings. She does not discuss; she only lectures.

She opts to not allow the famously reasoned YouTube comments to exist for her videos? How dare she!

 

[Officerrob]

Essentially people are saying that the two new hires don't deserve to be their because of their gender and skin color.

This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that skin color is being attached onto what has been mostly argued about as a gender issue in this case. I think a very vocal group would still be arguing if it was a male of any race who was hired

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Some, like me, are simply saying GB would be a more interesting and possibly valueable site given more diversity, thats all.

It reminds me of the hub-bub around the LAPD when it was mandated that they had to diversify. That worked out amazingly well, btw.

In broad terms, that's fine. But the discussion is now about two very specific individuals. It's not longer about "white guys" in general. It's about Dan and Jason.

I bet they feel like shit that there is a seemingly large group of folks who think they didn't deserve the position primarily because of their gender and skin color.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

She blocks all comments and ratings. She does not discuss; she only lectures.

Ahh. You know she didn't block the comments and ratings to be spiteful, right? She did it because of the shitstorm of misogyny and death threats that go her way when they aren't blocked. Seems fair to me. I think you're underestimating the level of vitriol she gets for extremely basic points of "There is sexism in video games."

 

[Jburton]

Didn't know Leigh Alexander hated everything Giant Bomb this much, but maybe she still gets hate? But her articles are always highlighted in Patrick Klepek's Worth Reading...

Smacks more of jealousy and butt hurt than anything else.

 

[Cartman86]

1) While I get why she does it, she disables her comments
2) Brings up ingame evidence and molds it to fix her arguments (sometimes, not always)
3) Called Rainbox 6 sexist despite having men and women in all sides of the game (there is a twitter quote some where).



To be fair I think every once and a while they do, but I'm not totally sure. Last time I can think of them having women on was during this e3 and they had that Scottish lady and the TF community manager.

So did a lot of people on twitter as that game was being shown during the Ubisoft conference. Alex from Giantbomb, Jeff Cannata etc.

 

[chickdigger802]

Wasn't Leigh Alexander on GB's E3 livestream a few years back? I figured she'd be cool with then or something.

Did they have a falling out or something?

yeah, not really sure whats going on.

 

[HariKari]

Second, you say to "learn to embrace change" but how are the new hires change exactly? It's more of the same. Unless by "embrace change" you mean "don't change anything at all." Because it seems like that's what you mean.

It's hard to take any social cause seriously when it wildly lashes out any anything remotely related. Even if it takes a monumental leap in logic to get there. The Ubisoft situation and this are not really comparable.

 

[zewone]

http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAct...ideo_game_review_site_giant_bomb_hired_a_cis/

This is hilarious.

 

[Ozium]

Smacks more of jealousy and butt hurt than anything else.

argue that women wouldn't even want to work there.
then complain that no women were hired.

dat logic

 

[mullet2000]

Someone in the main Giantbomb thread stated about this situation that "I probably spent ~ 2 hours today reading twitter and forums. It didn't raise my awareness for diversity or change my opinion on how to deal with it. Reading just made me sad and hopeless."

I thought that was a very apt way of putting how I feel about this whole situation too. I think this, ultimately, is the issue that "awareness" for a lot of social issues is facing right now.

How often have outcries like this happened in the past year? Now how many of those outcries actually left you feeling like you learned something, or that others learned something, or that it was a good step forward in any way? For me at least, very few of them. I'm very often seeing both sides of any social issue involving games completely stumble and mishandle these issues. It just comes off as screaming insults at each other until everyone is exhausted.

On top of that, every situation like this - and especially this one today, I bet - is some group of people's first or most notable encounter with feminist/social issues, and honestly I don't feel confident that it's going to leave a lot of people wanting to learn more about these issues and educate themselves. It's more likely to make those uneducated people think "wow this is fucking dumb" and pay it less mind to them in the future. And that's a very sad thing.

 

[dark10x]

I never equated the United States to the world. Show me where I did exactly what you described. No implications or misunderstandings. Actual words please.

What you said cannot be applied to the world as a whole. That's really all there is to it.

No go ahead and continue your crusade.

I probably spent ~ 2 hours today reading twitter and forums. It didn't raise my awareness for diversity or change my opinion on how to deal with it. Reading just made me sad and hopeless.

This is exactly how I feel after this. I genuinely feel like shit after reading this thread and tweets surrounding it.

 

[besada]

A reminder: if your contribution to this thread involves a single line dismissal, like "pff, the imternet" or "twitter:/" or anything else as pointlessly stupid and wasteful of drive space, you should go post elsewhere.

Contribute or get out. No more warnings.

 

[kiunchbb]

I love guilty before proving innocent stance a few people are taking. Sexism in hiring practice should be a lawsuit, not public witch hunting.

 

[Avallon]

Ahh. You know she didn't block the comments and ratings to be spiteful, right? She did it because of the shitstorm of misogyny and death threats that go her way when they aren't blocked. Seems fair to me. I think you're underestimating the level of vitriol she gets for extremely basic points of "There is sexism in video games."

I know the story. I've been following it since the beginning when she used those comments as a way to push her agenda. I've never seen her sit down without a script and discuss her points. If she does debate her argument, please point me to that video. I'd love to watch it.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Wasn't Leigh Alexander on GB's E3 livestream a few years back? I figured she'd be cool with then or something.

Did they have a falling out or something?

I think the hate and abuse she has gotten from bits of the community has tapered off, but still present after those two appearances.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

So did a lot of people on twitter as that game was being shown during the Ubisoft conference. Alex from Giantbomb, Jeff Cannata etc.

No but after the show and finding out new info about the role of females in the game she still did. I haven't got the twitter quote, but it was really reaching and quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I don't know the entire story behind this, but looking at their arrogant passive aggressive tweets and responses I would never in a million years hire someone like Leigh Alexander or Samantha Allen if I were running a site. There's a difference between articulating a grievance and being hostile and belligerent towards anyone who questions your opinion.

Unless there is evidence that GB made their decisions based on race or gender bias rather than qualifications it's hard not to read this as sour grapes or PC ideology gone awry. Can anyone explain who the new hires are and who were the other front runners that weren't white males?

 

[QaaQer]

In broad terms, that's fine. But the discussion is now about two very specific individuals. It's not longer about "white guys" in general. It's about Dan and Jason.

I bet they feel like shit that there is a seemingly large group of folks who think they didn't deserve the position primarily because of their gender and skin color.

agreed.

 

[Resilient]

This is fuckng the most ridiculous shit I've read in GAF in a long time. If they wanted to hire based on who was/is best for their job then so be it. Those whining that they didn't get hired is next level fuckery. In which other fields is that acceptable?? How are GB not thinking "gee we dodged a bullet not hiring these people who whined and insulted us when they didn't get what they wanted" ??????????

 

[QaaQer]

Smacks more of jealousy and butt hurt than anything else.

anal rape euphemisms maybe not the best in this kind of thread. ;-)

 

[Wrestlemania]

What you said cannot be applied to the world as a whole. That's really all there is to it.

No go ahead and continue your crusade.

What? Are you honestly trying to say that an issue shouldn't be criticised or discussed if it can't be applied to the entire world?

 

[AJLma]

GiantBomb has been incredibly good about dealing with the shittier aspects of people on the internet in the past (with silence). They should probably have just met this issue the same. They were going to upset a large number of people no matter WHO they hired.

 

[Fotheringay]

Here's a perfect summation of Leigh Alexander's approach to tackling issues

"At the very least, it shows more care toward underrepresented people if you presume their instincts about discrimination may be correct and you seek data to support that, rather than asking for data before you will consider their feelings."

i.e. go in with a bias, and try to find facts that support that instead of actually getting the data first.

Copied from this http://shawnelliott.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/leigh-alexander-and-i-agreed-to-move.html

 

[Jburton]

Are we really at the "women aren't funny/entertaining" point of this conversation now? Christ.

That's my opinion, nothing more.

Whether you disagree or not is of no consequence.

 

[Officerrob]

Wasn't Leigh Alexander on GB's E3 livestream a few years back? I figured she'd be cool with then or something.

Did they have a falling out or something?

Her apearence on that bombcast didn't go so well, and I think the community let her know about it

 

[Zeyphersan]

It's hard to take any social cause seriously when it wildly lashes out any anything remotely related. Even if it takes a monumental leap in logic to get there. The Ubisoft situation and this are not really comparable.

I wasn't making a comparison between this and the Ubisoft situation. I brought up Ubisoft as a counter to the point of "Just shut up and enjoy video games." If people did that, we wouldn't have HAD a thread where people called Ubisoft on their bullshit. That's a situation that arose exclusively out of people NOT just shutting up. And it's great and it needs to happen more often. "Just shut up" is the worst mentality you can have. I was calling that out.

Ubisoft had nothing to do with my second point, which you quoted, and which I stand by. Defending the hiring of two more white dudes with "learn to embrace change" is ludicrous.

 

[outunderthestars]

Discussion is taking place in the official Giant Bomb thread.

This is why megathreads suck.

Back on topic: I wish people would give the new hires a chance before attacking them based on their race or gender.

 

[THRILLH0]

They actually offered Leigh the job but her $775m salary demand was deemed illegal.

 

[Erevador]

It's a bit odd that Leigh Alexander feels the need to denigrate Giant Bomb for not meeting her high standards, and yet once got raging drunk and embarassed herself so much on the Bombcast that she wrote a blog post apologizing for it.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

I know the story. I've been following it since the beginning when she used those comments as a way to push her agenda. I've never seen her sit down without a script and discuss her points. If she does debate her argument, please point me to that video. I'd love to watch it.

To be fair, it's hard to make a video in which you debate with various people from all over the world calling you a cunt.

That and I don't think the videos are there to be a debate hall to begin with. They're her point, going over various issues. If you want to see counterarguments to her point, watch the youtube videos that have been made by people doing exactly that.

 

[Kinyou]

anal rape euphemisms maybe not the best in this kind of thread. ;-)

It actually orginates from spanking (it's on Know your meme, i removed the link since the site is nsfw)

the-more-you-know.jpg

 

[jwhit28]

I wonder why people think the whole hiring process is a waste just because Giantbomb hired who it did (I feel bad for those guys, it's one thing for people to be disappointed in your work but just to be disappointed with you race or gender has to make you feel terrible)?

Take the Rooney rule from the NFL

All teams must interview 1 minority for positions on the staff. This didn't immediately lead to a mass hiring of black coaches and executives, but it got them on to people's rolodex and in to the social circles people say are so impenetrable. Maybe Giantbomb didn't find a women or minority that fit in with them, but when people as respected as the one's at Giantbomb start getting calls "like so what did you think about _____ during their interview"?" that's where things can start changing.

 

[Mushroomer25]

It makes complete sense lobbied at Giant Bomb, what are you talking about? This is a company (yes, a company, not a group of friend sitting around drinking beers and making videos for the hell of it) made up exclusively of white guys, who just hired two more white guys. This is in no way the "worst possible target". It's a very valid target.

Giant Bomb is not the standard gaming journalism outpost. They don't just crank out independent reviews, previews, and video content. Rather, the entire site relies on the intrapersonal relationship of the team. Between Quick Looks, the podcast, and other video content, they're always operating as a collaborative effort. It's as much about playing off each other's comedic timing as writing/critical skill. So it's not at all shocking that, of all the candidates - they picked the one who had already done plenty of content on Giant Bomb, resonated with the audience, and was prime to move west.

I understand the anger at a lack of diversity in typical games media. There's a value in a wide array of opinions in an IGN style operation. It doesn't matter if two people lack chemistry, because it's easy to avoid pairing them. But at GB, one outlier sinks the ship. It's why so many people held a vengeance against Patrick - they felt he didn't resonate.

 

[TheD]

It is wrong to discriminate against women, LGBT and non whites.
It is also wrong to claim out of the blue that two white men had been hired only because they are white men (without any proof that there was women of equal or greater skills in the running)!

Doing that makes you just as bad!

 

[Qassim]

Demanding people hire people of a certain profile disregarding all other factors is really, really stupid. Getting angry when people are hired that fit a specific ethnic & gender profile is equally dumb.

Do these people actually live in reality? Do they talk with other actual humans? I'm convinced these people care less about an actual workable solution to real problems (fewer women, fewer people of racial 'minorities' in certain industries), than they do a chance to get angry at people on the internet using the worst of justifications.

 

[dark10x]

What? Are you honestly trying to say that an issue shouldn't be criticised or discussed if it can't be applied to the entire world?

No. Of course not. This is a global forum, though, so I think some of those comments made can be taken in very different ways depending on where you're reading them from.

Look, I'm out of arguments here. It's late, I'm super depressed as it is and I don't need anymore of this.

 

[besada]

That's my opinion, nothing more.

Whether you disagree or not is of no consequence.

But whether I find it sexist does.

 

[Raide]

This is why megathreads suck.

Back on topic: I wish people would give the new hires a chance before attacking them based on their race or gender.

I am looking forward to their contribution. Ryan left a huge gap in GB and Jeff must have been stressing about filling that void. I personally like Patrick and they way he works but fresh talent that rounds out GB has a whole, is always a solid choice.