What is going on on Giant Bomb right now?
- Thread starter Avallon
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Patrick posted in his ''Worth reading'' article recently.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/6/27/5841360/the-problem-with-game-names
No, she's upset that no women got either of the two jobs available, even though she has no evidence to prove that any female applicants were as qualified as the two men who eventually got the jobs. Also, the men were straight and white too (which seems to be something that needs to be pointed out too.)Wait, she didn't apply, and she's upset that she didn't get the position? I am super confused.
Also, the way she responded to people posing questions was rather bad.
Then it's a BS definition.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Ha I didn't mean it that way. I meant like if my wife applied for the job she obviously is not qualified but is a woman of Korean descent. Just like I would not be qualified if I were to apply despite being a white male. Didn't mean to say the only possible people qualified were white males. Only that maybe they were the only ones that met their needs, which by the way included way more than commenting on games.
Zeyphersan
Banned
I'm not arguing anything, mind you. I was posing a question.
However, there are SOOOO many variables we will never ever know unless GB discloses the information: who applied, what were their qualifications, what were the requirements of the job, who got to interview and beyond, etc. People (on both sides) are arguing and fighting based on absolutely no information. None whatsoever.
But that's where the problem comes in: because we have no information we can only see what's presented to us. And what's presented to us is a company that only hires white guys for forward-facing positions, while one of those members (a very prominent one) is talking about encouraging and embracing diversity in the industry. It's not hard to see where the problem begins, and why people can easily see this as an actual issue. This isn't people making something out of nothing.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Eh, the guys are good about not being a bunch of pigs, they're not particularly sexist or unsavoury towards women, they're pretty good about having female guests.
Anyone can be qualified.
Do you have a list of every person who applied, their race and gender? We have no idea who applied, maybe the applicants alone aren't that diverse.
Giant Bomb are not racists or harbour any prejudice. They just wanted new staff to help them continue producing the content they want. I believe they chose Jason and Dan on ability. Can this be denied?
NintendoGal
Member
Online and anonymity (relatively anyway) make civil discourse worse and worse as time goes on. Both sides here are going too far. Obviously the gal didn't have the best response to the criticism, but that's not how you take that feedback. The other side is of course those laying into her. Can't we all just drop it and move on?
There's a school of thought that believes that if you diversify your base of opinions, you get a better product in return. I won't pretend to choose a side in this, but there is a viable opposing view.
You can either make a product from an insular environment (in this case, opinions in videogames) where the viewpoints considered reach a certain level of debate over nuances, or you can opt for having an investment in a broader spectrum of viewpoints and considerations that may have the effect of making your content more impactful or varied from the same product you get from merely hiring from "the most qualified".
One could say that being strictly academic in your hiring process has a detrimental effect of not introducing the end effect of a better product in this regard. On the other hand, a case can also be made that you can incur a detriment for making non-academic choices. It's a balancing act. One that Giant Bomb may or may not feel that they need to make at this juncture in their product life cycle.
When the pool of talent is significantly larger for one type of person, chances are the most qualified person is going to come out of that pool.
It has nothing to do with random number generation.
Like I said, I'm with holding most of my criticism until I see what they do with regards to
staff at Giant Bomb New York. If the same hiring pattern holds up, then I can assume
that's what GB places the most value in with regards to hiring employees.
That will give me a better idea of whether I should renew my subscription or cancel it.
Because United States labor laws require you to at least make the appearance that it's an open position, even if everyone knows it isn't.
Avallon
Member
They're ex-Game Informer. How do you get more qualified than that?
Because it's a CBS Interactive division. That's literally impossible to do through a major corporation like that.
nobody is saying that, if course there are qualified women for the job and if one applies and is the right candidate than great.
Sylvrfonic
Member
Giant Bomb can't solve the problem of diversity. They have a responsibility to their audience and "shareholders" (CBS) to hire the most qualified people race/gender/proclivity aside. The problem is that there are not enough jobs and not enough diversity in the pool of potential candidates. If you blame outlets and stop supporting them there will be even fewer jobs and the problem will get even worse.
Edit: Ugh, dumb post. What I left out is that I think that gaming at large needs to do a better job of attracting a more diverse audience. If we can do that then there will be more diversity and more opportunity. I think that blaming outlets for a systemic problem is counter productive.
I don't think he was claiming that there are no women qualified so much as saying maybe the person who got the job was more qualified, regardless of sex/race or any of that.
TheSpoiler
Member
Valtýr;119132300 said:
Do you hire the one with loads of experience or bank on someone new to the industry? If I want to run a successful business, why would I do the latter?
There are other ways for the industry to be more inclusive beyond possibly screwing themselves with someone who doesn't have a long track record.
GavinUK86
Member
Lol @ geek feminism. Why the fuck does it need a separate name. Racism is just racism. End of. I don't like your tone either. Seems like your talking down to me.
You can be mad or whatever but it's what you did. Your ignorance on social issues is not a good excuse.
To all people saying they hired the "best for the the job", I'll just copy my post from the GB thread:
I definitely think there's some people that are in the wrong for blaming Giant Bomb exclusively, as if they've done a big misgiving to the gaming journalist community, but I also feel that this hiring news is also just being used as a focal point for larger industry issues. As an African-American myself and someone who at one point (and still sometimes does) considered wanting to get into gaming journalism, news like this is really discouraging and the industry as a whole is disheartening as well. People say they hired the "best person for the job" but if the industry continues to play out the way it has for however long, then the "best person for the job" will NEVER be a minority, woman etc.
And why? Because the best person for the job will always be "generic white dude #3" who probably has 10+ years of experience, has lived in New York or Cali the majority of their lives and is likely already friends with the same other 100 or so people that have held the same positions for years.
So how is a minority or woman ever supposed to even reach a position where they become the "best person for the job" when the majority of the time they're never given the opportunity for any advancement or even the chance to build a portfolio of credible work on the same level as a Dan Ryckert when all the jobs all go to the same people?
It's the equivalent of Hollywood casting the same 10 or 12 guys for the same leading roles in films year after year and when the directors are questioned for their hiring procedures they go "hey man, I just hired the best guy for the role, he's a proven actor with years of experience!" Well no shit, none of the new guys ever really got a chance to show what they could do because you always go with same bets that have already been established. No one is asking for sites like GB to force diversity for the sake of diversity but the truth is that diversity in large part is never going to "naturally happen" if the industry never opens itself to "naturally change" and present new opportunities
Times are changing though and sites like Twitch and YouTube have opened up the door for people to make names for themselves in new ways that sidestep a lot of these problems but it's still an issue regardless. If history has shown us anything though, whether it be television, film, music, art, etc., if minorities or women want to have positions in these fields, they have to create their own things as the majority of the industry will never really give a fuck about you and remain a closed-off revolving door of the same faces gobbling up the lions' share of the work.
I don't want this post to come off as angry or bitter, because I love Giant Bomb and the duders like everybody else does and have been a huge fan for years. I look forward to seeing what Dan and Jason bring to the table for GB and feel they were great hires, but we can't deny the greater issue at hand and pretend it's not a problem that doesn't exist.
I definitely think there's some people that are in the wrong for blaming Giant Bomb exclusively, as if they've done a big misgiving to the gaming journalist community, but I also feel that this hiring news is also just being used as a focal point for larger industry issues. As an African-American myself and someone who at one point (and still sometimes does) considered wanting to get into gaming journalism, news like this is really discouraging and the industry as a whole is disheartening as well. People say they hired the "best person for the job" but if the industry continues to play out the way it has for however long, then the "best person for the job" will NEVER be a minority, woman etc.
And why? Because the best person for the job will always be "generic white dude #3" who probably has 10+ years of experience, has lived in New York or Cali the majority of their lives and is likely already friends with the same other 100 or so people that have held the same positions for years.
So how is a minority or woman ever supposed to even reach a position where they become the "best person for the job" when the majority of the time they're never given the opportunity for any advancement or even the chance to build a portfolio of credible work on the same level as a Dan Ryckert when all the jobs all go to the same people?
It's the equivalent of Hollywood casting the same 10 or 12 guys for the same leading roles in films year after year and when the directors are questioned for their hiring procedures they go "hey man, I just hired the best guy for the role, he's a proven actor with years of experience!" Well no shit, none of the new guys ever really got a chance to show what they could do because you always go with same bets that have already been established. No one is asking for sites like GB to force diversity for the sake of diversity but the truth is that diversity in large part is never going to "naturally happen" if the industry never opens itself to "naturally change" and present new opportunities
Times are changing though and sites like Twitch and YouTube have opened up the door for people to make names for themselves in new ways that sidestep a lot of these problems but it's still an issue regardless. If history has shown us anything though, whether it be television, film, music, art, etc., if minorities or women want to have positions in these fields, they have to create their own things as the majority of the industry will never really give a fuck about you and remain a closed-off revolving door of the same faces gobbling up the lions' share of the work.
I don't want this post to come off as angry or bitter, because I love Giant Bomb and the duders like everybody else does and have been a huge fan for years. I look forward to seeing what Dan and Jason bring to the table for GB and feel they were great hires, but we can't deny the greater issue at hand and pretend it's not a problem that doesn't exist.
Mushroomer25
Member
Exactly. Giant Bomb works because you genuinely believe that the crew are friends, and carry on relationships outside of the office. As a result, they hire from within existing social circles. Which - like most people - are comprised of individuals that they relate to. Picking up a random games writer who was already in the area wasn't their goal - they wanted somebody that they knew would fit.
That sounds suspiciously like actual equality. We can't have that.
The people who got the jobs were the most qualified for those positions. They had been producing GB-style content at Game Informer for years. There are a number of women who meet similar credentials, but they all seem to be happily working at Gamespot or wherever. The women who at least implied they applied don't have nearly the same experience either behind a camera or at an editing desk.
GB is a small outfit in a field that's overwhelmingly dominated by white males. They shouldn't be looked at in isolation, but taken in as part of the whole of videogame journalism. If you look to their sister site, Gamespot, you see diversity in both race and gender, but you also see a lot more employees.
sechsterangriff
Member
It's another form of racism, but still is racism.
Pretty much.
I'll be honest, I've only read a bit about the situation so I may not be fully versed in it:
Sounds like Giant Bomb didn't necessarily do anything wrong by hiring 2 white dudes (though obviously diversity is important). Samantha Allen, among others are upset that GB didn't hire people of a different gender/race. Then GB fans took to Twitter and other avenues to personally attack these critics? Is that right?
Bad situation all around. Though fuck the people that harassed others. No need for that.
Sounds like Giant Bomb didn't necessarily do anything wrong by hiring 2 white dudes (though obviously diversity is important). Samantha Allen, among others are upset that GB didn't hire people of a different gender/race. Then GB fans took to Twitter and other avenues to personally attack these critics? Is that right?
Bad situation all around. Though fuck the people that harassed others. No need for that.
Why should I be afraid of my statement? I'm being honest, and am open for discussion.
Giant Bomb are a group of really nice guys. They have women on their podcasts occasionally and I don't think they meant any disrespect (to any female candidates) in their hiring of two fairly seasoned and experienced members of the enthusiast press.
My opinion of GB (as someone who enjoys the site) is a crew of 30-something guys who likes to talk about stuff like wrestling, American sports, and other stuff that I think make up the milieu of a boys club. I'm not saying women can't and don't enjoy these things as well. As a guy who doesn't enjoy these things (I'm only interested in games talk, so I end up fast forwarding through much of the Bombcast every week when it goes off topic), I'd never apply there since I don't feel I'd be a good cultural fit there. Because so many of the guys there enjoy that stuff, I feel a job there would not only be about writing/covering games, but also being a participant in the culture of GB. So I'm back to my original statement that I'm surprised there are women -- knowing what GB is like -- would want to apply there.
I'm willing to have a discussion about this and am not meaning to be insulting of any candidates who applied or towards the GB crew.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Because it's sort of a seperate thing, reverse racism occurs because of racism, although the def in the wiki doesn't make sense, as it assumes the dominant social group is racist (which while in this case it is, it's not always necessarily)
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
Thank you so much for this post. I've been on mobile and unable to respond to this business all day, but you just perfectly articulated every aspect of this situation from my point of view. It's like you lifted my silent frustration directly off my shoulders. Wonderful.
Video games are dominated by white males. That's just how it is. If they sit down and look at 50 people and the top 2 are white males then how is that equal or fair for them to be denied a job that they deserve because of their race and gender?
I know, and I'm not saying that should have. They have every right to hire who fit their needs in the current situation. I'm just pointing out that turning this into a race/sex argument is the wrong direction to take this.
That's the name of the website. Wow. So funny. In any event, I'm not going to placate you when it's clear you lack knowledge of basic social issues associated with women and minorities.
Exactly why she shouldn't have responded to him in that way. I understand that no one should attack her but she shouldn't say that to a guy who is bringing to question what equality is.
Zeyphersan
Banned
Great post, and something that hadn't crossed my mind. Thank you.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
One of my favourite Brass Eye quotes.
Avallon
Member
Sometimes life is just not fair. I have a degree in marketing. It's very difficult for me to find a job, however, because companies hire people with the most experience. Someone new, like me, doesn't have the same chance as someone with experience. How can I get experience if no one will hire me without it?
TheSpoiler
Member
Nobody is ignoring the issue, but using GB as an example is simply creating another useless issue. Find the people who are actually going out of their way to not hire based on race or sex.
I'm black, and I've worked my ass off in the industry. I'm in a different spot, so I can't speak fully, but I'd totally want someone to hire me based on my skills and not my race. That's what it should come down to - skills, and here is an example of this.
Reluctant-Hero
Member
This passive aggressive use of "SJW" (social justice warrior) needs to stop. Social Justice is not a new "thing" and is an important issue across all walks of life, across the world.
Yeah, that's kinda ironic. Vice versa, when they eventually hire a woman you'll probably hear plenty of "oh they only hired her because she's a woman"
The Librarian
Banned
Basically. It's hard to advance when you're not given the chance.
I don't mean to be rude, but why should they? Sorry, but I have little time for positive discrimination towards people because they dare to be white, and male.
Why should a qualified white guy be actively discriminated against so a quota of diversity can be met?
I would love to know your reasoning. And please, don't jump to the conclusion that I am automatically a straight white guy because of my response.
mysteriousmage09
Member
It's not a matter of if you ARE qualified, it's a matter of who is BEST qualified with the BEST credentials on their resume. Shouldn't matter what your fucking race or gender is, if you are the best out of the candidates available then that's fucking that. Acting like Giantbomb told a female candidate to piss off simply because she was a female is fucking ridiculous. Unless a report comes out from the inside stating that that is indeed what giantbomb did, this argument on "white males only" is some of the most childish fuckery i've read in a long time.
Not saying women should be treated any lower then men at all, but say it came to a decision to choose between a man or a woman and the man has say, 5 more years of experience under his belt, well that's that. Nothing against the woman or anything but i'll tell you right now id be going with the one with the more experience. For the record, the people going after Samantha for the comments are dumb asses.
That's not correct though in this case it was but if the best round of hiring is someone of a different race or a women than great. The best qualified could be anyone in this case its Dan and Jason.
Is it not illegal to hire people based on gender and race in America? Why are people arguing that GB should have hired based on these things. Hire the best applicant, simple as.
Shock, the world is competitive. It's a dog eat dog world. Why settle for less than the best? Just to appease spectators?
Valtýr;119132300 said:
Shock, the world is competitive. It's a dog eat dog world. Why settle for less than the best? Just to appease spectators?
What the fuck is a CIS, GAF?
I think it's more likely she missed out on the job because of the way she talks to people.
It sucks when companies with proper equal opportunity policies get screwed over when they don't hire minorities and get accused of harbouring prejudices and not simply just acquiring the best talent they can find.
I think it's more likely she missed out on the job because of the way she talks to people.
It sucks when companies with proper equal opportunity policies get screwed over when they don't hire minorities and get accused of harbouring prejudices and not simply just acquiring the best talent they can find.
Not even just religion, perhaps ex-offenders and ex-addicts can be put into this bracket too.
I would say that it is more to do with a lot of smaller organisations exploiting and discriminating. What happens here is that reputable organisations that are incredibly visible get a chance to make a statement by having a diversity quota, by giving an under-represented minority a chance and be an example to other entities that these demographics deserve equal pegging.
It's actually altruistic and noble and goes beyond the black and white of X stats wins the day. In fact it is an entirely new criteria of external facing factors.
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