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[hayejin]

I'm curious. While all this was happening what would the passengers have experienced? Would they have been aware something was wrong or that the plane was going down or was it total calm or total chaos while all this was happening?

 

[Slurpy2k20]

I've flown a ton of times in my life, and it still scares the fucking shit out of me every time. And it gets worse every time. There's not a single other situation in my life where I feel so close to death than when I'm on a plane, and I've been in the middle of quite a few dangerous situations.

It's just the combination of a COMPLETE lack of control, the human-error part, the fallibility of technology..and the fact that there's absolutely no room for error, if anything happens you're pretty much dead. I've never understood, for the life of me, how everyone can look so fucking relaxed/sleeping on a plane when there's crazy turbulence, a fuckload of noises, and the plane constantly losing/gaining altitude in a crazy storm. Yet the person next to me looks like they're lounging on their couch reading a fucking magazine. I feel like I'm the only sane one in a place full of insane people who trust everything 100%. And please, noone start with the 'you're safer in a plane than a car' crap- I know the stats, but psychologically the situations are night and day. It just doesn't feel like a rational form of travel. Unfortunately it's the only option, as I'd theoretically gladly pay 2X amt for a ground/sea based alternative that's as fast. The worst are overseas flights, landing after a hellish, stressful flight and knowing I need to take 2 MORE to reach the destination.

 

[Prez]

I've flown a ton of times in my life, and it still scared the fucking shit out of me every time. And it gets worse every time. There's not a single other situation in my life where I feel so close to death than when I'm on a plane, and I've been in the middle of quite a few dangerous situations. It's just the combination of a COMPLETE lack of control, the human-error part, the fallibility of technology..and the fact that there's absolutely no room for error, and if anything happens you're pretty much dead. I've never understood, for the life of me, how everyone can look so fucking relaxed/sleeping on a plane when there's crazy turbulence, a fuckload of noises, and the plane constantly losing/gaining altitude. I feel like I'm the only sane one in a place full of insane people who trust everything 100%. And please, noone start with the 'you're safer in a plane than a car' crap- I know the stats, but psychologically the situations are night and day.

There is actually quite a bit of room for error in air travel. I have no idea why you'd think that every error results in dead. Most plane crashes are due to miscommunication or a big error in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Also, heavy turbulence is the least common cause of plane crashes.

 

[UFRA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfh9-ogUgSQ

Actual CVR from Japan Airlines Flight 123. Don't click if you can't stand it.

Wow that was pretty disturbing.

The crew member saying "It's...the end!" right before the crash is so sad.

Is there any info on the 4 survivors from this crash and the story behind them? That's incredible anyone made it through.

Edit:

The survivors were Yumi Ochiai (落合 由美 Ochiai Yumi?), an off-duty JAL flight attendant, age 25, who was jammed between a number of seats; Hiroko Yoshizaki (吉崎 博子 Yoshizaki Hiroko?), a 34-year-old woman and her 8-year-old daughter Mikiko Yoshizaki (吉崎 美紀子 Yoshizaki Mikiko?), who were trapped in an intact section of the fuselage; and a 12-year-old girl, Keiko Kawakami (川上 慶子 Kawakami Keiko?), who was found wedged between branches in a tree.[6]

I found that much on Wiki at least. Amazing.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'm curious. While all this was happening what would the passengers have experienced? Would they have been aware something was wrong or that the plane was going down or was it total calm or total chaos while all this was happening?

yes, they would have known something was wrong. falling 10,000 feet/minute is noticeable, my friend. we're talking almost 170 feet/second (~50 m/s). Terminal velocity for a human in freefall (say, skydiving) is around 55m/s.

Pure conjecture, but I assume for long stretches of the fall, they would have felt like they were being held to their seats by their seatbelts (otherwise, they might be pulled towards the ceiling).

 

[Slurpy2k20]

There is actually quite a bit of room for error in air travel. I have no idea why you'd think that every error results in dead. Most plane crashes are due to miscommunication or a big error in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Also, heavy turbulence is the least common cause of plane crashes.

My point was the percentage of all car-crashes which lead to death are very small. The percentage of death in a plane crash is essentially 100%.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Wow that was pretty disturbing.

The crew member saying "It's...the end!" right before the crash is so sad.

Is there any info on the 4 survivors from this crash and the story behind them? That's incredible anyone made it through.

a woman once survived a 30,000 ft fall without a parachute. Plane bombing on a jet she was a stewardess on.

IIRC, she had a fractured skull, some smashed vertebrae, and was in a coma for a month. But yes, she survived.

 

[Timbuktu]

Anyone read Michael Crichton's Airframe? Read it many years ago but from memory this is eerily similar.

 

[AstroLad]

There is actually quite a bit of room for error in air travel. I have no idea why you'd think that every error results in dead. Most plane crashes are due to miscommunication or a big error in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Also, heavy turbulence is the least common cause of plane crashes.

Yep, as a rule it's usually a series of 5-6 ridiculously unlikely things that independently would have little or no material effect happening all at once.

 

[luxarific]

Posting from my phone, so I'm not quoting the best parts of this article but it's worth a read

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...a&id=news/bca0711p2.xml&headline=null&prev=10

Apparently stalls are now the lead cause of fatal accidents in jet aircraft. Also the article quotes Sullenberg about the lack of physical movement of controls/levers in some fly-by-wire jets (he basically thinks it can disorient pilots because it's such a change in visual/physical feedback from how planes have historically operated). Also discusses the fact that pilots are not really trained on recovery from high altitude stalls.

 

[dluu13]

Very dumb question, but what causes a stall? Why can planes not fly completely vertical? Not enough power? I've always wondered this.

There's a magic angle at which when an airfoil moves past air (or when air moves past the airfoil - it's the same thing), it generates an upwards thrust that counteracts gravity. When you're outside the magic range, it's no longer effective.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

pretty awful read but not as bad as reading the 9/11 transcripts/audio tapes. That shit will haunt your dreams

 

[speculawyer]

Flying at night with broken instruments is a bad situation. I guess they get disoriented and make bad decisions.

 

[Gattsu25]

I should have read that AFTER my flight tomorrow.

 

[DrM]

I should have read that AFTER my flight tomorrow.

Me & my friend watched Air crash investigation marathon one day before flight to Tunisia. Not a very good idea.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

I should have read that AFTER my flight tomorrow.

It makes the flight more exciting.

 

[Kinyou]

it gets worse.

Delayed rescue operation

United States Air Force controllers at Yokota Air Force base situated near the flight path of Flight 123 had been monitoring the distressed aircraft's calls for help. They maintained contact throughout the ordeal with Japanese flight control officials and made their landing strip available to the airplane. After losing track on radar, a U.S. Air Force C-130 from the 345 TAS was asked to search for the missing plane. The C-130 crew was the first to spot the crash site 20 minutes after impact, while it was still daylight. The crew radioed Yokota Air Base to alert them and directed a USAF Huey helicopter from Yokota to the crash site. Rescue teams were assembled in preparation to lower Marines down for rescues by helicopter tow line. The offers by American forces of help to guide Japanese forces immediately to the crash site and of rescue assistance were rejected by Japanese officials. Instead, Japanese government representatives ordered the U.S. crew to keep away from the crash site and return to Yokota Air Base, stating the Japan Self-Defense Forces (JSDF) were going to handle the entire rescue alone.

Although a JSDF helicopter eventually spotted the wreck during the night, poor visibility and the difficult mountainous terrain prevented it from landing at the site. The pilot of the JSDF helicopter reported from the air that there were no signs of survivors. Based on this report, JSDF ground personnel did not set out to the actual site the night of the crash. Instead, they were dispatched to spend the night at a makeshift village erecting tents, constructing helicopter landing ramps and in other preparations, all some 63 kilometers from the wreck. JSDF did not set out for the actual crash site until the following morning. Medical staff later found a number of passengers' bodies whose injuries indicated that they had survived the crash only to die from shock or exposure overnight in the mountains while awaiting rescue.[6] One doctor said "If the discovery had come ten hours earlier, we could have found more survivors." [14]

Yumi Ochiai, one of the four survivors out of 524 passengers and crew, recounted from her hospital bed that she recalled bright lights and the sound of helicopter rotors shortly after she awoke amid the wreckage, and while she could hear screaming and moaning from other survivors, these sounds gradually died away during the night.[6]​

-wiki

I'm fucking sleighed. Tears, man. Both at knowing those pilots are heroes who's efforts resulted in lives being saved, and that some of those efforts were wasted by government bureaucracy.

That is heartbreaking. Just imagine being one of the survivors, hoping that rescue would come any minute now...

 

[alphaNoid]

I've flown a ton of times in my life, and it still scares the fucking shit out of me every time. And it gets worse every time. There's not a single other situation in my life where I feel so close to death than when I'm on a plane, and I've been in the middle of quite a few dangerous situations.

It's just the combination of a COMPLETE lack of control, the human-error part, the fallibility of technology..and the fact that there's absolutely no room for error, if anything happens you're pretty much dead. I've never understood, for the life of me, how everyone can look so fucking relaxed/sleeping on a plane when there's crazy turbulence, a fuckload of noises, and the plane constantly losing/gaining altitude in a crazy storm. Yet the person next to me looks like they're lounging on their couch reading a fucking magazine. I feel like I'm the only sane one in a place full of insane people who trust everything 100%. And please, noone start with the 'you're safer in a plane than a car' crap- I know the stats, but psychologically the situations are night and day. It just doesn't feel like a rational form of travel. Unfortunately it's the only option, as I'd theoretically gladly pay 2X amt for a ground/sea based alternative that's as fast. The worst are overseas flights, landing after a hellish, stressful flight and knowing I need to take 2 MORE to reach the destination.

I think its normal to be a little frightened but doing so serves zero purpose. Like you said, you have no control so what does freaking out do to fix anything? I suggest on all your future flights you have a couple of drinks before or on the flight and you'll be fine. The worst flights I've been on have been when I've taken my 2 year old son. That shit is anxiety 101, worrying about him, his sleep, me and all the passengers hating us.

That shit is the worst, worst anxiety ever.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think its normal to be a little frightened but doing so serves zero purpose. Like you said, you have no control so what does freaking out do to fix anything? I suggest on all your future flights you have a couple of drinks before or on the flight and you'll be fine. The worst flights I've been on have been when I've taken my 2 year old son. That shit is anxiety 101, worrying about him, his sleep, me and all the passengers hating us.

That shit is the worst, worst anxiety ever.

It helps to remember that planes once in the air want to stay in the air. You have to do some pretty deliberate shit (or have some great series of tragic circumstances happen at once) to cause a crash. If you know that, then turbulence shouldn't stress you.

Now me on the other hand...I was on a small plane coming back from the Bahamas that wound up having problems trying to go around a major storm cell between Nassau and Miami. A long story made very, very short...a 40 minute flight took north of 2 HOURS. the plane went completely horizontal twice, but the two pilots (both females) were able to recover the plane every time...but that plane was being tossed around like a child's toy. We had all pretty much made peace with our end.

When we saw the lights of Miami International Airport, we cried like fucking babies. When we got up to deplane, we saw the pilots hunched over the controls, clearly fatigued from a helluva ordeal. We gave them hugs. When we got off, we kissed the ground.

But after that, regular turbulence means nothing to me. Planes WANT to stay in the air, and pilots are (with rare exception) quite prepared to handle bad situations.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

It helps to remember that planes once in the air want to stay in the air. You have to do some pretty deliberate shit (or have some great series of tragic circumstances happen at once) to cause a crash. If you know that, then turbulence shouldn't stress you.

Now me on the other hand...I was on a small plane coming back from the Bahamas that wound up having problems trying to go around a major storm cell between Nassau and Miami. A long story made very, very short...a 40 minute flight took north of 2 HOURS. the plane went completely horizontal twice, but the two pilots (both females) were able to recover the plane every time...but that plane was being tossed around like a child's toy. We had all pretty much made peace with our end.

When we saw the lights of Miami International Airport, we cried like fucking babies. When we got up to deplane, we saw the pilots hunched over the controls, clearly fatigued from a helluva ordeal. We gave them hugs. When we got off, we kissed the ground.

But after that, regular turbulence means nothing to me. Planes WANT to stay in the air, and pilots are (with rare exception) quite prepared to handle bad situations.

I was in a situation over Nevada where the plane I was on (full airliner, at least 200 people on board) hit clear air turbulence almost out of nowhere, the flight attendant in the rear got into her seat with about half a second to spare. I experienced about two minutes of sporadic free fall drops that each lasted about 1-3 seconds. That might not seem like much but when I say free fall, I mean if I wasn't buckled in I would have flown into the fucking ceiling: I was literally lifted from my seat each time until the slack of my lap belt caught me, then slammed back down as the wings caught some lift again. I ended up jamming myself into my seat by holding the chair in front of me and pushing back on mine to keep myself in place.

During this time the plane's engines were roaring up and down, we started steep banks to the left and half of the passengers were screaming or crying (except some kids that were laughing like it was a ride). I was sitting maybe a row or two from the very back and the flight attendant had a death grip on her jump seat with an extremely forced fake smile plastered on her face that was apparently supposed to tell me this was normal. During one of our steep banks we experienced a sideways drop and the coffee pot in the back area fell and shattered on the floor spilling hot water everywhere.

I was in the aisle seat and next to me was probably a six year old kid and his dad was by the window. The dad was freaking the fuck out and started yelling at the flight attendant "Why aren't the pilots telling us what's happening?!" She snapped at him with "I'm sure they're a little busy right now!"

I remained surprisingly calm through the whole thing. I know a bit about planes and certainly enough to know they don't just fall out of the air, and regardless of how hard we were dropping those wings will bend like crazy before they break. But still, it was absolutely terrifying and one of two times in my life where I felt like death could be eminent and simply I accepted whatever might happen.

After we got out of the turbulence the captain eventually came on and said we had diverted 80 miles South around the disturbance and were now at cruising 16,000 feet...and I thought WTF! We had just been cruising at at least 35,000 feet. Just like that in a couple minutes we dropped 19,000 feet, and the gravity of the situation kind of sunk in on me. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but I talked to the flight attendant when we were on the ground and we were waiting to deplane, since I was in the back. She said in 17 years of flying she had never experienced anything close to that. Put the whole thing into perspective for me.

So that's how I was introduced to clear air turbulence. Look it up if you want some more stories like that because most often there's absolutely no warning when it hits. People are hurt, and sometimes die, every year from walking about the cabin and getting their shit wrecked in an unforeseen free fall. So when they tell you to buckle your seat belts, you might do it next time....

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I was in a situation over Nevada where the plane I was on (full airliner, at least 200 people on board) hit clear air turbulence almost out of nowhere, the flight attendant in the rear got into her seat with about half a second to spare. I experienced about two minutes of sporadic free fall drops that each lasted about 1-3 seconds. That might not seem like much but when I say free fall, I mean if I wasn't buckled in I would have flown into the fucking ceiling: I was literally lifted from my seat each time until the slack of my lap belt caught me, then slammed back down as the wings caught some lift again. I ended up jamming myself into my seat by holding the chair in front of me and pushing back on mine to keep myself in place.

During this time the plane's engines were roaring up and down, we started steep banks to the left and half of the passengers were screaming or crying (except some kids that were laughing like it was a ride). I was sitting maybe a row or two from the very back and the flight attendant had a death grip on her jump seat with an extremely forced fake smile plastered on her face that was apparently supposed to tell me this was normal. During one of our steep banks we experienced a sideways drop and the coffee pot in the back area fell and shattered on the floor spilling hot water everywhere.

I was in the aisle seat and next to me was probably a six year old kid and his dad was by the window. The dad was freaking the fuck out and started yelling at the flight attendant "Why aren't the pilots telling us what's happening?!" She snapped at him with "I'm sure they're a little busy right now!"

I remained surprisingly calm through the whole thing. I know a bit about planes and certainly enough to know they don't just fall out of the air, and regardless of how hard we were dropping those wings will bend like crazy before they break. But still, it was absolutely terrifying and one of two times in my life where I felt like death could be eminent and simply I accepted whatever might happen.

After we got out of the turbulence the captain eventually came on and said we had diverted 80 miles South around the disturbance and were now at cruising 16,000 feet...and I thought WTF! We had just been cruising at at least 35,000 feet. Just like that in a couple minutes we dropped 19,000 feet, and the gravity of the situation kind of sunk in on me. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but I talked to the flight attendant when we were on the ground and we were waiting to deplane, since I was in the back. She said in 17 years of flying she had never experienced anything close to that. Put the whole thing into perspective for me.

So that's how I was introduced to clear air turbulence. Look it up if you want some more stories like that because most often there's absolutely no warning when it hits. People die every year from walking about the cabin and getting their shit wrecked in an unforeseen free fall. So when they tell you to buckle your seat belts, you might do it next time....

*man hug*

we should have a NearDeath-GAF club. 19,000 feet in a few minutes...fuck. the people on the Air France flight probably felt something very similar. A sobering thought indeed. Our pilots never told us how much our altitude had changed during the course of that 2 hour flight that should have been 45 minutes...but I didn't mind, as I figured they had shit to do. lol. I was able to stay relatively cool because I decided to focus on keeping my little brother calm.

 

[Monocle]

That was absolutely chilling to read. It's frustrating not to be able to take that Bonin guy by the shoulders and give him a good shake and say "Stop pulling up, moron!", but evaluating the situation retrospectively with a clear picture of the situation is obviously a world away from squirming in the grip of panic as you sit at the controls of the actual plane.

I feel sorry for all those people. What a horrific way to go.

I was in a situation over Nevada where the plane I was on (full airliner, at least 200 people on board) hit clear air turbulence almost out of nowhere, the flight attendant in the rear got into her seat with about half a second to spare. I experienced about two minutes of sporadic free fall drops that each lasted about 1-3 seconds. That might not seem like much but when I say free fall, I mean if I wasn't buckled in I would have flown into the fucking ceiling: I was literally lifted from my seat each time until the slack of my lap belt caught me, then slammed back down as the wings caught some lift again. I ended up jamming myself into my seat by holding the chair in front of me and pushing back on mine to keep myself in place.

During this time the plane's engines were roaring up and down, we started steep banks to the left and half of the passengers were screaming or crying (except some kids that were laughing like it was a ride). I was sitting maybe a row or two from the very back and the flight attendant had a death grip on her jump seat with an extremely forced fake smile plastered on her face that was apparently supposed to tell me this was normal. During one of our steep banks we experienced a sideways drop and the coffee pot in the back area fell and shattered on the floor spilling hot water everywhere.

I was in the aisle seat and next to me was probably a six year old kid and his dad was by the window. The dad was freaking the fuck out and started yelling at the flight attendant "Why aren't the pilots telling us what's happening?!" She snapped at him with "I'm sure they're a little busy right now!"

I remained surprisingly calm through the whole thing. I know a bit about planes and certainly enough to know they don't just fall out of the air, and regardless of how hard we were dropping those wings will bend like crazy before they break. But still, it was absolutely terrifying and one of two times in my life where I felt like death could be eminent and simply I accepted whatever might happen.

After we got out of the turbulence the captain eventually came on and said we had diverted 80 miles South around the disturbance and were now at cruising 16,000 feet...and I thought WTF! We had just been cruising at at least 35,000 feet. Just like that in a couple minutes we dropped 19,000 feet, and the gravity of the situation kind of sunk in on me. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but I talked to the flight attendant when we were on the ground and we were waiting to deplane, since I was in the back. She said in 17 years of flying she had never experienced anything close to that. Put the whole thing into perspective for me.

So that's how I was introduced to clear air turbulence. Look it up if you want some more stories like that because most often there's absolutely no warning when it hits. People are hurt, and sometimes die, every year from walking about the cabin and getting their shit wrecked in an unforeseen free fall. So when they tell you to buckle your seat belts, you might do it next time....

Damn... I feel like I need to change my pants. I've experienced some pretty gnarly turbulence, but nothing close to what you described.

Edit: I just remembered that one of my worst flights was also over Nevada. Awful gut-wrenching plunging and bucking. Put me off air travel for a while.

 

[FStop7]

I was in a situation over Nevada where the plane I was on (full airliner, at least 200 people on board) hit clear air turbulence almost out of nowhere, the flight attendant in the rear got into her seat with about half a second to spare. I experienced about two minutes of sporadic free fall drops that each lasted about 1-3 seconds. That might not seem like much but when I say free fall, I mean if I wasn't buckled in I would have flown into the fucking ceiling: I was literally lifted from my seat each time until the slack of my lap belt caught me, then slammed back down as the wings caught some lift again. I ended up jamming myself into my seat by holding the chair in front of me and pushing back on mine to keep myself in place.

During this time the plane's engines were roaring up and down, we started steep banks to the left and half of the passengers were screaming or crying (except some kids that were laughing like it was a ride). I was sitting maybe a row or two from the very back and the flight attendant had a death grip on her jump seat with an extremely forced fake smile plastered on her face that was apparently supposed to tell me this was normal. During one of our steep banks we experienced a sideways drop and the coffee pot in the back area fell and shattered on the floor spilling hot water everywhere.

I was in the aisle seat and next to me was probably a six year old kid and his dad was by the window. The dad was freaking the fuck out and started yelling at the flight attendant "Why aren't the pilots telling us what's happening?!" She snapped at him with "I'm sure they're a little busy right now!"

I remained surprisingly calm through the whole thing. I know a bit about planes and certainly enough to know they don't just fall out of the air, and regardless of how hard we were dropping those wings will bend like crazy before they break. But still, it was absolutely terrifying and one of two times in my life where I felt like death could be eminent and simply I accepted whatever might happen.

After we got out of the turbulence the captain eventually came on and said we had diverted 80 miles South around the disturbance and were now at cruising 16,000 feet...and I thought WTF! We had just been cruising at at least 35,000 feet. Just like that in a couple minutes we dropped 19,000 feet, and the gravity of the situation kind of sunk in on me. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but I talked to the flight attendant when we were on the ground and we were waiting to deplane, since I was in the back. She said in 17 years of flying she had never experienced anything close to that. Put the whole thing into perspective for me.

So that's how I was introduced to clear air turbulence. Look it up if you want some more stories like that because most often there's absolutely no warning when it hits. People are hurt, and sometimes die, every year from walking about the cabin and getting their shit wrecked in an unforeseen free fall. So when they tell you to buckle your seat belts, you might do it next time....

I've never experienced a long series of drops like that, but I have experienced one big one. Complete freefall, felt like it lasted a week. Of course in reality it was probably 2 or 3 seconds.

I guess the "good" news is that commercial aircraft are capable of so, so much more than what we passengers will probably ever experience. Steeper climbs, more rapid descents, steep banks, etc.

 

[Wanace]

Air France fired their cockpit instrument UI designer and they went on to design Skyrim's UI.

In all seriousness though, this story was frightening and heartbreaking to read. Especially since I'm flying from Shanghai to Detroit next week and I hate flying anyway.

 

[Phoenix]

I've flown a ton of times in my life, and it still scares the fucking shit out of me every time. And it gets worse every time. There's not a single other situation in my life where I feel so close to death than when I'm on a plane, and I've been in the middle of quite a few dangerous situations.

It's just the combination of a COMPLETE lack of control, the human-error part, the fallibility of technology..and the fact that there's absolutely no room for error, if anything happens you're pretty much dead. I've never understood, for the life of me, how everyone can look so fucking relaxed/sleeping on a plane when there's crazy turbulence, a fuckload of noises, and the plane constantly losing/gaining altitude in a crazy storm. Yet the person next to me looks like they're lounging on their couch reading a fucking magazine. I feel like I'm the only sane one in a place full of insane people who trust everything 100%. And please, noone start with the 'you're safer in a plane than a car' crap- I know the stats, but psychologically the situations are night and day. It just doesn't feel like a rational form of travel. Unfortunately it's the only option, as I'd theoretically gladly pay 2X amt for a ground/sea based alternative that's as fast. The worst are overseas flights, landing after a hellish, stressful flight and knowing I need to take 2 MORE to reach the destination.

You have a greater chance of being killed when you are behind the wheel of a car where you ARE in control than you do being killed in an aircraft. The vast majority of fatal crashes out there come from pilot fatigue, unfamiliarity with the airport, or pilot error (normally associated with pilot fatigue). The funny and somewhat sad part is that the machines are pretty damn capable of flying the plane and are aware of all the situations via instruments. Its normally when a human pilot counteracts that where you end up with a unrecoverable failure scenario. On top of that its rarely one thing that causes a crash, it is a string of events that together cause the crash.

I've read so many of these things where the pilot does one thing and doesn't realize it, then the aircraft says "hey jackass - we have a situation" and the pilot ignores it or explains to the copilot why it should be disregarded, then later when the second alarm is triggered and everyone should be aware that there is a situation they STILL continue to behave as if everything is alright - that the technology is malfunctioning and then they reach an unrecoverable situation which results in the crash.

Air Travel as ha been stated previously in this thread is actually extremely safe. You have a greater chance of someone running you over on the street than you do of dying in a plane crash.

 

[Dead Man]

Very dumb question, but what causes a stall? Why can planes not fly completely vertical? Not enough power? I've always wondered this.

A stall is basically a separation of airflow over the wing. This causes a loss of lift, which can be corrected by increasing speed. If a plane does not have enough thrust to accelerate upwards, it will need to nose down to gain that speed, which is why stalls are dangerous close to the ground.

The wiki page on stalls is pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)

Images which may help you visualise what happens:

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Pretty harrowing. My brother is a avionics technician and has told me some stories like this. There's apparently some recording out there of a guy who tries to do a roll in a test flight with a bunch of other pilots and one guy literally goes "You've just killed us all."

 

[Phoenix]

Had a chance to read through that. Bonin clear made a critical error and the designers of the sidestick made a critical error with that design. I'm not even sure why you WOULD design the copilot stick in that manner. The most unfortunate thing is that if they have another 5K feet they probably could have corrected the situation. They needed speed and the only way to get it at that point was to nose down towards the water and pull it back out after they had passed the stall situation. A high altitude stall in a modern airline is almost unimaginable. The plane has so much shit in it to prevent that sort of scenario from happening. Its crazy, and the fact that nobody could tell that Bonin's input continued to imperil them the entire is all the reason to redesign the flight controls altogether.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Man that's eerie to read when you already know the outcome.

So if I'm understanding this correctly... one of the co-pilots was pulling back on the stick trying to climb, unaware that this was actually forcing the plane into a stall? And then when he finally announces that "he's had the stick the whole time", the Captain realizes the error and forces the plan into a dive to regain speed, but it's just too late?

Man you would think that should be pretty common knowledge to a pilot at that level, but I guess in a situation like that it would be pretty easy to not think straight. Pretty sad though

exactly what happened.
Also the plane saying 'climb climb' is very unhelpful being that it's in a stall or near stall situation.

what scares the crap out of me is that a pitot tube fucking out is still something that can kill everyone. Why is there not a better version of a pitot tube yet?

EDIT: Also, if I'm reading the article correctly, the stall warning was sounding, but they didn't even MENTION it.

even though the word "Stall!" will blare through the cockpit 75 times. Throughout, Bonin will keep pulling back on the stick, the exact opposite of what he must do to recover from the stall.

I don't even get this. I did my Private pilots years ago and stall warnings on tiny 2 seaters is one of the most unnerving noises. My father was an avionics engineer as well and used to show me the warning systems in dash-8 and BAe 146 aircraft, it's loud, jarring and pretty much scary. I can't believe they just disregarded it as faultly info without reacting or considering.

Reading it all again, it seems the bonin guy is almost totally at fault and the more senior guy didn't realise he was consistently screwing it all up despite him repeatedly telling him to descend.

EDIT EDIT: Seems the captain came to the cockpit, thought about it for a little bit, correctly identified the problem and it was too late. As soon as Bonin said 'i've had the stick back the whole time' the other co-pilot knew exactly what to do but it was too late.

 

[FStop7]

This is not meant to be a joke - when reading the article the thought crossed my mind - would adding force feedback to the side sticks be in any way beneficial? Some kind of physical sensation to let the left seat know if the right seat is moving the stick in the opposite direction.

 

[Branduil]

This is not meant to be a joke - when reading the article the thought crossed my mind - would adding force feedback to the side sticks be in any way beneficial? Some kind of physical sensation to let the left seat know if the right seat is moving the stick in the opposite direction.

From the article, most sticks are designed like that.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

From the article, most sticks are designed like that.

I took from the article that the one on this type of aircraft is not like that.

Also, there is supposed to be a clear line of procedure for who is controlling. The new guy was holding back on the stick, even though the other guy was flying. That's panic behaviour.

 

[Lamel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfh9-ogUgSQ

Actual CVR from Japan Airlines Flight 123. Don't click if you can't stand it.

Oh my fuck...

 

[youta]

It does not seem to me that the design of the controls is necessarily at fault (the pilot's actions which led to the crash of Birgenair Flight 301 - a Boeing 757 - were similar). Someone mentioned Aeroflot Flight 593 and in that case, also an Airbus, they could have recovered if the pilot had simply let go of the controls (much like Bonin should have). In fact, both Airbus and Boeing have tremendous safety records (the A-330 clocks in at one accident per twelve-million hours of flying). Mayday is a very interesting program that covers many of these accidents (which, sad as they may be, are fascinating examples of the limitations of humans and technology).

 

[KHarvey16]

exactly what happened.
Also the plane saying 'climb climb' is very unhelpful being that it's in a stall or near stall situation.

what scares the crap out of me is that a pitot tube fucking out is still something that can kill everyone. Why is there not a better version of a pitot tube yet?

EDIT: Also, if I'm reading the article correctly, the stall warning was sounding, but they didn't even MENTION it.


I don't even get this. I did my Private pilots years ago and stall warnings on tiny 2 seaters is one of the most unnerving noises. My father was an avionics engineer as well and used to show me the warning systems in dash-8 and BAe 146 aircraft, it's loud, jarring and pretty much scary. I can't believe they just disregarded it as faultly info without reacting or considering.

Reading it all again, it seems the bonin guy is almost totally at fault and the more senior guy didn't realise he was consistently screwing it all up despite him repeatedly telling him to descend.

EDIT EDIT: Seems the captain came to the cockpit, thought about it for a little bit, correctly identified the problem and it was too late. As soon as Bonin said 'i've had the stick back the whole time' the other co-pilot knew exactly what to do but it was too late.

At the extreme low speeds they were flying at toward the end the flight computer began to disregard data as unreliable, which shut off the stall warning. Pulling up kept the alarm off, and nosing over would increase airspeed and cause the computer to again accept data which would cause the alarm to sound once again. So by doing the wrong thing he kept the alarm off.

I think egregious design flaws or not, changes will be made to address this scenario.

 

[shanshan310]

How is the captain taking a nap when they are flying through an area known for severe storms? FUCK

That's how it goes.. There are usually four pilots, and they rotate. You want your pilots exhausted and worn out by the time the plane lands?

Everytime I hear about this I feel sick. I remember reading an article a while back about a family of four who got split up on to two flights - the mother and the son onboard the doomed flight.

 

[UnluckyKate]

it gets worse.

Delayed rescue operation

United States Air Force controllers at Yokota Air Force base situated near the flight path of Flight 123 had been monitoring the distressed aircraft's calls for help. They maintained contact throughout the ordeal with Japanese flight control officials and made their landing strip available to the airplane. After losing track on radar, a U.S. Air Force C-130 from the 345 TAS was asked to search for the missing plane. The C-130 crew was the first to spot the crash site 20 minutes after impact, while it was still daylight. The crew radioed Yokota Air Base to alert them and directed a USAF Huey helicopter from Yokota to the crash site. Rescue teams were assembled in preparation to lower Marines down for rescues by helicopter tow line. The offers by American forces of help to guide Japanese forces immediately to the crash site and of rescue assistance were rejected by Japanese officials. Instead, Japanese government representatives ordered the U.S. crew to keep away from the crash site and return to Yokota Air Base, stating the Japan Self-Defense Forces (JSDF) were going to handle the entire rescue alone.

Although a JSDF helicopter eventually spotted the wreck during the night, poor visibility and the difficult mountainous terrain prevented it from landing at the site. The pilot of the JSDF helicopter reported from the air that there were no signs of survivors. Based on this report, JSDF ground personnel did not set out to the actual site the night of the crash. Instead, they were dispatched to spend the night at a makeshift village erecting tents, constructing helicopter landing ramps and in other preparations, all some 63 kilometers from the wreck. JSDF did not set out for the actual crash site until the following morning. Medical staff later found a number of passengers' bodies whose injuries indicated that they had survived the crash only to die from shock or exposure overnight in the mountains while awaiting rescue.[6] One doctor said "If the discovery had come ten hours earlier, we could have found more survivors." [14]

Yumi Ochiai, one of the four survivors out of 524 passengers and crew, recounted from her hospital bed that she recalled bright lights and the sound of helicopter rotors shortly after she awoke amid the wreckage, and while she could hear screaming and moaning from other survivors, these sounds gradually died away during the night.[6]​

-wiki

I'm fucking sleighed. Tears, man. Both at knowing those pilots are heroes who's efforts resulted in lives being saved, and that some of those efforts were wasted by government bureaucracy.

Yeah, the recording didn't took me down, but reading this after did. Holy crap, survivors in a 747 crashing upside down in a mountain and no rescue...

 

[SmokyDave]

My point was the percentage of all car-crashes which lead to death are very small. The percentage of death in a plane crash is essentially 100%.

Actually, it's pretty much the opposite...

In fact, according to the US government, 95.7 percent of the passengers involved in aviation accidents make it out alive. That's right. When the National Transportation Safety Board studied accidents between 1983 and 2000 involving 53,487 passengers, they found that 51,207 survived. That's 95.7 percent. When you exclude crashes in which no one had a chance of surviving - like Pan Am 103 - the NTSB says the survival rate in the most serious crashes is 76.6 percent. In other words, if your plane crashes, you aren't necessarily doomed.

Taken from here.

 

[bitoriginal]

Wow, that was an intense read.

 

[pestul]

Here's a page with CVR transcripts of air disasters for the past 5 decades. Pretty tough to read some of these. Most it doesn't seem like the crew even has a clue what is about to happen (especially the mountain ones :S).

http://planecrashinfo.com/lastwords.htm

 

[Hari Seldon]

This is not meant to be a joke - when reading the article the thought crossed my mind - would adding force feedback to the side sticks be in any way beneficial? Some kind of physical sensation to let the left seat know if the right seat is moving the stick in the opposite direction.

That is how multi-pilot have been designed going back 70+ years (B17, etc.). The two yokes are connected together mechanically and only provide 1 input to plane controls.

 

[Despera]

Yumi Ochiai, one of the four survivors out of 524 passengers and crew, recounted from her hospital bed that she recalled bright lights and the sound of helicopter rotors shortly after she awoke amid the wreckage, and while she could hear screaming and moaning from other survivors, these sounds gradually died away during the night.​

-wiki

Wow

 

[Azih]

It does not seem to me that the design of the controls is necessarily at fault (the pilot's actions which led to the crash of Birgenair Flight 301 - a Boeing 757 - were similar). Someone mentioned Aeroflot Flight 593 and in that case, also an Airbus, they could have recovered if the pilot had simply let go of the controls (much like Bonin should have). In fact, both Airbus and Boeing have tremendous safety records (the A-330 clocks in at one accident per twelve-million hours of flying). Mayday is a very interesting program that covers many of these accidents (which, sad as they may be, are fascinating examples of the limitations of humans and technology).

None of the other pilots realized that Bonin had been pulling back the entire time like an asshole. That was a critical piece of information for the other pilots.

 

[SmokyDave]

Here's a page with CVR transcripts of air disasters for the past 5 decades. Pretty tough to read some of these. Most it doesn't seem like the crew even has a clue what is about to happen (especially the mountain ones :S).

http://planecrashinfo.com/lastwords.htm

Some of these are grim. Particularly this one...

No need for that, we are okay, no problem, no problem.

 

[Utako]

I thought most of the flying was conducted by the autopilot nowadays.

We're agreed that we're in manual, yeah?

Why would they want to be in manual in this situation if their heading and altitude was initially fine? Just to reduce terbulence a little?

 

[Meadows]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfh9-ogUgSQ

Actual CVR from Japan Airlines Flight 123. Don't click if you can't stand it.

When I heard "WHOOP WHOOP - PULL UP" I nearly started crying. Horrible.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I thought most of the flying was conducted by the autopilot nowadays.

Why would they want to be in manual in this situation if their heading and altitude was initially fine? Just to reduce terbulence a little?

Because the sensors frosted over or something and it kicked the plane out of auto.

 

[Alucrid]

None of the other pilots realized that Bonin had been pulling back the entire time like an asshole. That was a critical piece of information for the other pilots.

You act like he did that on purpose to kill everyone when really all he was doing was going back to what he, as a pilot, instincively thought to do in a panic situation like that.

I thought most of the flying was conducted by the autopilot nowadays.

Why would they want to be in manual in this situation if their heading and altitude was initially fine? Just to reduce terbulence a little?

Your reading comprehension is terrible. The pilot tube froze over disabling the autopilot. That was just confirmation that autopilot was disabled and that they would have to manually fly it from then on. herp derppp, although not reading or reading incorrectly seems to be a common theme of this thread.

 

[DrForester]

Very dumb question, but what causes a stall? Why can planes not fly completely vertical? Not enough power? I've always wondered this.

There are some planes that can fly vertically, but they are high performance aerobatic planes, and military fighters capable of providing enough thrust to keep the airflow over the wings.

 

[Oozinator]

Couldn't the crew feel that the plane was stalling or with a highly picthed nose due to gravity or something ?