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What supplements are you taking/have you taken?

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I'm currently taking NO2, creatine, and whichver protein powder is the cheapest (at the moment it is Twinlab's Super Whey Fuel). I haven't been using them consistently though, and I'm not sure what exactly is the best method for taking it. (i.e. before/after workouts, what times of the day, before/after eating etc.)

What do you guys/girls take and how do you take them? What would you suggest is the best combination of workouts and supplements if you're about 10 pounds "overweight" and you're headed to Rio De Janeiro in 7 weeks?
 
if your "overweight 10 lbs" just do cardio and eat about 700 calories less a day than you burn




700*7=4900 cals a week
* 7 weeks = 34300 total
/ 3500 cals in 1 lb fat
=9.8 loss
 
Of course I know the best way to lost fat/weight is cardio/exercise. Calories in Vs. calories out.

The trouble is, I'm as concerned with building muscle as I am with burning fat. Doing both at the same time is a little tough when you consider cardio tends to be catabolic, and doing a lot of lifting almost requires a person to eat more than normal. I know I'm always hungrier when I'm working out.

People who can eat Mcdonald's or other garbage everyday and not gain an ounce really piss me off.

I was just hoping to get some suggestions at what the best method is and what the best supplements are to both gain muscle and burn fat at the same time. More than losing weight, I want to lower my overall BMI.
 

way more

Member
I'm really curious about creatine. At first I completely avoided it but now that its been around so long and we still haven't seen any deterimental side affects I'm pretty interested.
Also, does higher quality Protien powder make a difference? The one I use comes with NO2 in it, I guess I could just use NO2.
 
Creatine, if not used properly and in moderation, can damage your liver and kidneys. But like I said, if it isnt used properly or in moderation.

The loading phase at the beginning is a bit of hell too. You have to do double of what you'd normally take for the first couple of weeks.
 
Hey forgotten. I can comment on some of your supplements, but not NO2. I generally don't do stuff like that. For losing weight creatine might not be a good idea. Why? Well because creatine tends to cause you to need more water and hold more water. Where is this water generally held? You guessed it, in your fat cells. Now if you are really trying cut the fat from your bones then I wouldn't suggest creatine because this can sort of cause a double whammy where you need more water and your diet causes your body to not be able to retain as much water. If you insist on creatine though I would advise taking it ~1 hour before your workouts.

As for protein. Well if you want to prevent protein metabolism then you should take your protein shakes within 15 minutes of the end of exercise. This will release the protein into your blood stream just as your body would start demanding it as an energy source and prevent as much loss as possible. 2nd best time to take a shake is ~1 hour before. 3rd best is 1st thing when you wake up. Since you want to lose weight I wouldn't suggest right before bed or during the night while you are sleeping though.

I know you want to lose fat while gaining/retaining muscle, but it just doesn't work that way unless you are REALLY out of shape. Once you reach a good amount of muscle mass and reasonable body fat % unless you have a magical metabolism it just doesn't tend to happen.
 

effzee

Member
Of course I know the best way to lost fat/weight is cardio/exercise. Calories in Vs. calories out.

The trouble is, I'm as concerned with building muscle as I am with burning fat. Doing both at the same time is a little tough when you consider cardio tends to be catabolic, and doing a lot of lifting almost requires a person to eat more than normal. I know I'm always hungrier when I'm working out.

If you are worried of not being able to do both at the same time, don't. Its not that hard to get around it. After you lift weights, you have to take atleast an 8 hour break to make sure you don't negatively affect the recovery of your weight lifting.


I was just hoping to get some suggestions at what the best method is and what the best supplements are to both gain muscle and burn fat at the same time. More than losing weight, I want to lower my overall BMI.
Best supplment i can recommend you is AST's VP2 Whey Protein.
http://www.ast-ss.com/Products/ProductPage.asp?ProdID=26

It will help you gain muscle like no other protein out there, and believe me you'll see the difference and at the same time, it helps u get leaner and lose weight. Just from taking the protein, people have lost up to 3 pounds. If you combine that with cardio, (high intensity and low duration), you'll be good for losing weight.

Also, creatine in a way can help you, you can take micronized creatine that contains less calories than normal creatine if you really want to watch your weight.

http://www.ast-ss.com/Products/ProductPage.asp?ProdID=10

As for best timing, i could go into the bracketing method but I don't think you will have the time or resources to get into that so i'll just say, the very best times to take protein is before working out (about 30 mins before) and right after working out. Also important times are when u wake up and about 30 mins before going to sleep.
For the creatine, not including the bracketing method, u should take it once or twice a day, best if you take it before and after working just like the protein.

And lastly, try to move up progressively in your cardio, that will help you increase the rate of losing that fat.
 
Thanks for all of the suggestions.

Effzee, how does that protein supplement from AST taste? I tried attempting the Max-OT program earlier this year, but I ran into a bad case of poison ivy about mid-way through and was sidelined for about 3 weeks. Those 3 weeks was spent binging on Papa Johns and playing Chrono Cross :( I've never been the same since.

You mentioned a bracketing method but said I might not have the "resources" for it. By resources, do you mean financial or time-wise? Money really isn't an issue at this point, but time is definitely not on my side (I'm working 60 hour weeks while going to school :( ) .

If I can't do strength training and cardio 8 hours apart, would you suggest having a few cardio days a week mixed in with strength training-only days? Also...what do you consider an aggressive cardio workout? I have no point of reference, but I typically run 2 miles at a time, with interval speeds. I suck at it still, so my 2 mile ends up taking nearly 20 minutes, but any figures you or anyone else could post could help motivate me I guess.

Also, I've been drinking a LOT of coffee lately. Literally 4-5 large cups a day - some with espresso. Would you recommend me kicking this habit?

Hahahaha...sorry for asking so much. The GAF is the 1 source for everything.
 

effzee

Member
Effzee, how does that protein supplement from AST taste? I tried attempting the Max-OT program earlier this year, but I ran into a bad case of poison ivy about mid-way through and was sidelined for about 3 weeks. Those 3 weeks was spent binging on Papa Johns and playing Chrono Cross :( I've never been the same since.

This is a hard question to answer, since any thing I say will be highly subjective. The one thing I can say is that out of the few protein supplements I’ve tried, the chocolate VP2 protein from AST is the best tasting. I’ve only tried a few other brands so I’m not saying no other protein tastes as good, but for the quality it provides, I’m surprised they manage to add taste in it at all.

You mentioned a bracketing method but said I might not have the "resources" for it. By resources, do you mean financial or time-wise? Money really isn't an issue at this point, but time is definitely not on my side (I'm working 60 hour weeks while going to school :( ) .
Its time and money. I’ll describe the method to you but I think in reality, unless your really dedicated, this method will just not be a realist goal. Specially since you work and go to school.

The bracketing method, from AST, is just the result of many years of research on the affects of taking supplements and what is the right timing to take the supplements to get the maximum benefits. If your interested in all the scientific research, and all the chemistry behind it, I highly recommend reading the whole article by yourself ( http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=132 ) but I’ll just summarize the procedure here.

The method requires you to take four different supplements. DGC, Creatine HSC, VP2 Whey Isolate and GL3 L-Glutamine which are all found on the AST website. These are very expensive supplements but since you say money is not an issue, I think they are worth the money. I mean why buy supplements that cheaper but don’t work?

Anyways, bracketing method involves taking the supplements at the two most important time intervals. Before and after working out. Before and after working out, you take one serving of Creatine HSC and VP2 Why Isolate together, in a 15 ounce glass of water. During the workout or afterwards, take D- Glucose (DGC) (1-gram per kilogram of body weight) and 10-15 grams of GL3 L-Glutamine (after the workout). Also don’t forget to take one serving of protein, right when you wake up, and 30 minutes before going to sleep. If you do cardio, make sure you take some protein after your cardio workout as well. All these supplements and the exact timing of taking them, in the bracketing method have been ingeniously planned to work so well with your body, if you follow the program exactly, you’ll be shock at how well it works. It will not only make you gain lean muscle, but it will help you lose fat and increase you metabolism.

Also since you say your really busy, I would like to suggest that you take NY-Tro Pro 40 (http://www.ast-ss.com/Products/ProductPage.asp?ProdID=21 ) which is a meal replacement. Eating more meals a day (without increasing total daily calories intake) will increase your metabolism. So even if you don’t have time for a full meal, you can easily and conveniently make the NY Tro Pro 40.

If I can't do strength training and cardio 8 hours apart, would you suggest having a few cardio days a week mixed in with strength training-only days? Also...what do you consider an aggressive cardio workout? I have no point of reference, but I typically run 2 miles at a time, with interval speeds. I suck at it still, so my 2 mile ends up taking nearly 20 minutes, but any figures you or anyone else could post could help motivate me I guess.
Well the only thing I’m worried about is that you might be putting too much stress on your body. Don’t over train cause that will leave you not working out for a long time, cause it breaks down your immune system. As for your question, I’ll just give you a sample of my workout to get a good idea of what you can do. I do 3 days of strength training and 2 days of Max OT cardio. On the weekends, I try to concentrate on my school work so I take those days off. This also me to get all the benefits I want with out having to worry about over training.

As for an aggressive cardio workout, I would say your on the right track. I follow the Max OT cardio plan which basically is doing interval training for 15-20 minutes (preferably on Recumbent bikes) to the best of your ability. By that I mean that by the end of your cardio session, you should be completely out of energy. This might take a few trials before you learn at which intensity you want to work at but once you get settled in, you will lose fat incredibly fast. This type of cardio works so much better than most other cardio plans because it increases your metabolism so much that you’ll be burning fat like a madman. Long duration cardio has been experimentally shown to not even come close to burning anywhere the same amount of fat or increase the metabolism.

Also, I've been drinking a LOT of coffee lately. Literally 4-5 large cups a day - some with espresso. Would you recommend me kicking this habit?
You’d be surprised at how good coffee can be for you. I would suggest taking about 400 milliliters of coffee a day, which would be healthy. I’m not sure what you mean by 4-5 large cups, if you can provide more accurate measurement that would be helpful. Oh the thing I wanted to mention about coffee was that it actually has been proven to increase fat metabolism and stamina in athletes. There are tons of other benefits from coffee, if your interested you can more about it here http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=209

Hahahaha...sorry for asking so much. The GAF is the 1 source for everything.
Nah its cool, I like to research these topics myself and its good to spread good and true information that AST provides instead of all of the false information floating around everywhere on the net these days.

Oh and all my info I got from the AST website, so all the credit belongs to them, and the wonderful scientists they have working for them.
 
Forgotten Ancient said:
Also, I've been drinking a LOT of coffee lately. Literally 4-5 large cups a day - some with espresso. Would you recommend me kicking this habit?


Effzee are you serious? If you had done your homework you would know that caffeine actually leads to a decrease in creatine in muscles and would completely counteract the affect of Creatine because it would never make it.

Forgotten again if you are looking to lose weight I wouldn't necessarily recommend creatine at all. And for your coffee. It isn't good to drink that much generally, but if you can't kick it just make sure it is black so you don't add all those extra calories.
 

effzee

Member
BigGreenMat said:
Effzee are you serious? If you had done your homework you would know that caffeine actually leads to a decrease in creatine in muscles and would completely counteract the affect of Creatine because it would never make it.

Forgotten again if you are looking to lose weight I wouldn't necessarily recommend creatine at all. And for your coffee. It isn't good to drink that much generally, but if you can't kick it just make sure it is black so you don't add all those extra calories.
Really? Can you point me to where you got this information about the negative affects of coffee on creatine?

I only ask cause there are tons of false information out on creatine, it seems like the media typically bad mouths creatine without any scientific proof behind it. So it be great if you can provide proof, because in my training, as well as the pro builders at AST don't experience anything like you describe.
 

effzee

Member
Another little tip I wanted to add about getting leaner, which even though will not make u dramatically skinnier but will none the less help is when u eat, eat slowly. Research in this area has shown that eating fast can add more fat than a person eating slowly.
 
Heh, thanks again Efzee.

I do eat WAY too fast and WAY too much. If I didn't go to the gym I'd have tank ass syndrome.

It's weird...I just ordered some steamed rice and chicken and only wanted to eat half of it. Even though I'm content, I still want to eat the rest. I know I'm gonna feel bloated and will want to take a nap if I do, but ... I hate not finishing food.
 

effzee

Member
Forgotten Ancient said:
Heh, thanks again Efzee.

I do eat WAY too fast and WAY too much. If I didn't go to the gym I'd have tank ass syndrome.

It's weird...I just ordered some steamed rice and chicken and only wanted to eat half of it. Even though I'm content, I still want to eat the rest. I know I'm gonna feel bloated and will want to take a nap if I do, but ... I hate not finishing food.
You shouldn't feel obligated to finish the food, infact as i mentioned it would be better if you take smaller meals over the course of the day, so if you ate half of your meal, just wait 2 or 3 hours and finish it.
 
Heh, thanks again Efzee.

I do eat WAY too fast and WAY too much. If I didn't go to the gym I'd have tank ass syndrome.

It's weird...I just ordered some steamed rice and chicken and only wanted to eat half of it. Even though I'm content, I still want to eat the rest. I know I'm gonna feel bloated and will want to take a nap if I do, but ... I hate not finishing food.
You shouldn't feel obligated to finish the food, infact as i mentioned it would be better if you take smaller meals over the course of the day, so if you ate half of your meal, just wait 2 or 3

Yeah, I don't feel obligated to finish it, but I really feel tempted to. I put it in the fridge though - it saves me extra unneeded calories and $$.

I was meaning to ask you, how is that Ny Tro Pro 40? Do you feel satisfied after taking one? How many meals do you replace with it? What flavor would you recommend? I do most of my meals at work (which doesn't have a blender) - does it taste fine with skim milk?

Thanks again for all of the information. I'm going to look into picking up some/all of those supplements you reccommended.
 
Here you go Effzee

'Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading', Vandenberghe et al, J Appl Physiol, vol 80, pp452-457, 1996
 

effzee

Member
Forgotten Ancient said:
I was meaning to ask you, how is that Ny Tro Pro 40? Do you feel satisfied after taking one? How many meals do you replace with it? What flavor would you recommend? I do most of my meals at work (which doesn't have a blender) - does it taste fine with skim milk?

Thanks again for all of the information. I'm going to look into picking up some/all of those supplements you reccommended.
I only keep the NY Tro Pro 40 for days that i know i will not get much time to have a full meal and since my days are usually very dyamic, it usually depends on what day it is. For example, i take two every tuesday because my schudele is too hectic to stop and eat a full meal. As for if it fills me up after taking one, yeah it does but this could be different for everyone, I eat a meal (or take NY Tro Pro 40) every three hours so the Ny Tro Pro 40 is perfect for me.

As for the flavor, I prefer the chocolate because it has the least amount calories and it taste best out of the three IMHO. I usually take mine with whole milk but thats only becuase its better for me, i have a very high metabolism and the extra calories whole milk provides helps slow down the absorbance rate. I never tried it with skim milk but i would assume that the taste different should be barely noticable.

Here you go Effzee

'Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading', Vandenberghe et al, J Appl Physiol, vol 80, pp452-457, 1996
Thanks, I'll look it up as soon as I get time (probably this weekend)
 

effzee

Member
About the creatine/coffee issue:

I’ve read some articles saying coffee or caffeine blocks the effects of creatine, is this true? I only have 2 or 3 cups a day, and really enjoy them. Don’t tell me I have to give up my coffee fix to use creatine!

Hey, don’t worry! Grab a double Kenyan-mocha, non-fat frappachino, sit down and relax while I tell you the facts behind this little charade.

Did you know way back when creatine was initially researched, most of it’s benefits were proven when mixed in warm coffee or tea! Back then, about 7 years ago, a warm liquid was needed to dissolve the creatine because the creatine was like, well…. sand! No micronized creatine back then!

The early literature by Paul Greenhaff and Alison Green often stated the creatine was best consumed in coffee or tea and obviously, still with good results. However, about 5 years ago researchers in Belgium gave subjects a daily 500mg/kg-bodyweight dose, that’s a whopping 36-45gms a day! Half of the subjects consumed the creatine with caffine and the other half without. Both groups showed modest increases in muscle creatine accumulation via 3IP-magnetic resonance spectroscopy (similar to an MRI). However, when tested, only the non-caffeine fed creatine group improved exercise performance, so the researchers suggested caffeine blocks the ergogenic effects of creatine.

Now the muscle loading effects of creatine in this study only showd 4-6% increases in both groups. This was no-where near Greenhaff’s work where he repeatedly showed muscular creatine increases of around 20%. The sort of dosages used in the Belgium study should have produced much higher muscle creatine increases.Therefore I suspect something in that study was definitely not "kosher".

Caffeine was investigated with creatine as it was suspected it might stimulate creatine transport similar to that of adrenaline. Caffeine increases circulating adrenaline concentrations. This study was based on lab dish results with clenbuterol (same pharmological family as caffeine) that showd clen stimulated creatine uptake. Since then, invivo (within the living body) results have dmonstrated clenbuterol actually reduces muscle creatine content. It reduces muscle creatine stores and increases blood creatine levels. Not an ideal creating loading environment.

While initial creatine research showed results when taking caffeine or coffee with creatine, this does not mean it may be the most effective way to take creatine. The only molecule proven so far to interact with creatine in humans (positively or negatively) is glucose. By drinking a larger serve of simple carbohydrates (research indicates approx. 90gms ) with your creatine directly after workouts dramatically increases creatine accumulation within muscle, maximizing results!
http://www.ast-ss.com/dev/qa_search/full_text.asp?ID=895
 

DJ Sl4m

Member
Damn, I think I've tried almost every suppliment under the sun that's promoted to make you grow more muscle or lose fat.
I'll have to reply to this topic in detail in a few minutes.

I have a very long list of things that work, and stuff that doesn't, and more importantly stuff that works but isn't cost effective.

So much crap out on the market, I'd love to help set some things straight and have some people realise there are some really wonderfull options for adding to your daily diet to help achieve whatever your goals are in the gym.
 

DJ Sl4m

Member
Alpha Lipoic Acid - this is an awesome insulin mimicer and perfect for anyone finding it hard to gain weight. Works even better taken with chromium.
It's uber cheap and very effective at helping your body fully digest your food and process it much more efficiently so you actually use all the potential of your food to help you put on weight. Take this 15 minutes before eating (2x a day for best results) esp after workouts.

Betagen - proven to work in studies, but it's so expensive and you have to use so much, it's not worth using. Huge waste of time and money.

NO2 - works by dialating your blood vessels and viens to help transport blood more efficiently throughout your body.
Sounds like a very sound and novel idea, but in reality taking arginine several times a day is soooooooooooo much cheaper.
I tried it for 3 months straight and wasn't impressed at all, I found I get my best pumps and best vasuclare looks from taking asprin and ephedrine to help dialate and thin my blood to do much the same as this very overpriced product which I got zero results from.

Creatine - works by pulling in excess water into the muscle bellies to appear more muscular than you usually are, and helps give a slight bit more strength and almost zero endurance.
If you're not subjected to really hot weather it's safe, but it can be dangerous if you use this and are out in the heat where you have the potential for heat strokes, heat exhaustion and death (usually from heart attack since the signal is so strong to pull excess water in your muscle, it actually robs your heart and liver of fluids needed to survive in extreme heat conditions) EX: but if you're not out in the sun during football practice with pads, helmets and what not you shouldn't have much to worry about other than making sure you drink more water than normal. It's strength is somewhat affected when digesting caffiene during it's use, but it's not enough to notice or worry about.

Glutamine - it's the most abundant amino acid inside your muscles so it doesn't take much thinking to realise you need more of this stuff to help promote muscle growth.
You can take it alone as L-Glutamine or drink lots of whey protein which happens to contain a lot of it because of it's chemichal make up.

Glycerol - Awesome but super sweet rehydrant in case you're ever a bit dehydrated or want to help achieve the full look when taking creatine. *Great for hangovers*

Ehpedrine - I think we all know a little something about this by now, but the FDA didn't come fully clean about it when they went to court and lost thier attempt to get it banned.
It's a GREAT upper for energy but an even blood dialater, which helps your blood circulation, just be extremely carefull when taking this with caffiene, it tends to be a LOT stronger as I'm sure most know as well by now.

Andro products - I'm not going to dive into all of them, there's simple too many and not enough time, but I will say they work extremely well on some people, and some people notice nothing t all.
They totally kick ass for me, but for anyone who never noticed anything here's a tip in case you ever try them again.
It takes about 4 full days before you start to notice any benefits or affects, at which time you may get a zit or 2, may get a very bad temper, and start getting so damn strong in the gym you'll be anxious all day to go workout to see what you can lift next.
If you've ever taken andro and still not noticed anything here's another thing to let you in on that may help out later, the dosage on the bottle is basicly a starting point suggestion for the masses, you may simply need more of it at a time for your body to produce more testosterone from it.
Most bottles suggest 100 mg 20 min prior to working out, well let's just say I used to take 400 mg of andro, 300 mg of andro-diol, 300 mg of nor-andro, and 300 mg of nor-andro diol before working out back when I used it. It's a huge part of the reason I'm benching (not maxing) 345 today, it has an enormous impact on your strength levels.

If you haven't noticed anything from it, simply try to take more than you think you should, but not as crazy I used to get, say 400 mg of only type, if you noticed you get a shitload of energy and you shake more than usuall, that's a sign your gonads are stimulated and producing your own test like mad. You don't have to over ingest with every workout, but it's a good way to see if it actually works on you, or if you're simply not taking enough of it to work.

Protein - this is more of a neccesity than a suppliment, you simply have to have lots of protein to grow more muscle.
Theres an old saying that a human body has trouble digesting more than 40 grams of protein at a time.
Well that's outdated info as it simply doesn't state which type of protein (all protiens are not equall for ease of digestion) nor if it was solid/liquid protien, an athlete or any other type of supportive info.
Here's the deal you need at LEAST 1.5 grams per lb body weight to grow more muscle without reaching a catabolic state, I go 2.0 per lb.

Liquid protien for an athlete or person training to grow muscle is not the same as a non training person consuming solid protien. Liquid protien is easier to digest (obviously) and digested much more rapidly than solid, which makes it perfect for immediatley after training and first thing in the morning when your insulin spkie is the highest.

The milk base of whey protein (which has the highest biological value) can intefere with your absorbtion and strength of creatine.
The best scenario I've found personally is drinking creatine mixed with alpha lipoic acid and some fast/medium carbs while working out. (which besides first thing in the morning before any food is the only time you can drink 10 grams of creatine and not have it tear up your stomach).
Drink the creatine while working out, then have your protein (liquid prefferably) imediately after working out to get it in your system while your muscle are still pumped and the blood flow is great.

no need to waste your time and money on something you're not sure is working, if you don't notice results or some time of positive effects that you think is worth the money invested in it, complete the use of that bottle and simply don't but more of it.

2 items that I don't think very highly of for weight gain, but do work incredibly for dieting are pyruvate and NO2.
When I go into keytosis (that weak state when my body is diminished of carbs and goes through the transition to burning fat instead of carbs, which is a tough transition) I noticed that the transition is most times unoticable and I seem to have lots of enegry and endurance.

no need to waste your time and money on something you're not sure is working, if you don't notice results or some time of positive effects that you think is worth the money invested in it, complete the use of that bottle and simply don't but more of it.
 

DJ Sl4m

Member
Oh yea, I forgot to mention when dieting you should cycle off creatine, as the carbs are needed to hold creatine in your muscle, but are being depleted at the time.

Complete your diet, then get back on creatine with an extra bit of carb loading at the beginning to basicly pump your muscles back up quicker and fuller.
 
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