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[StevieP]

So you claim that Zelda game iz using tessellation?!

No I did not. I said those 2 things will be what separate this gen from last gen. That, and a more consistent *actual* HD resolution.

but it doesn't look better. and there's no AI in that demo

Correct. And I don't want to resort to posting GIFs, as above, but the cutscenes (running on dev hardware) be it the bird demo or the zelda demo could not be accomplished as they are on the PS3/360. At least not smoothly. What appears to be full global illumination would beat the living crap out of the current gen systems.

The beauty of this gen to next gen, however, is complete scalability. Halo 4 will be released for 360, but if the Xbox3 makes it's late 2012 release date it will be released for that system as well. The equivalent in "turning the sliders up" on a PC game.

Looking at current gen's "high end" is about right in regards to expectations - simply due to how drastically the thermodynamics of high-end hardware have changed over the last half decade.

 

[Pranay]

Anyone have a Core 2 Duo and an X1900xt lying around for some comparison screens?



Yes, lighting and tessellation will be the defining features of next gen. That, and more consistent 720p resolution (with some 1080 sprinkled in for some select games), rather than 540p/600p near-SD crap.

Killzone 2 was entirely CGI. Zelda was running on hardware, being rendered twice from different angles on both a TV and a tablet from said dev hardware. Gigantic difference.

I hope you do know that BF3 wont run on DX9 cards ?

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

If those examples are what next gen looks like then next gen will be severely disappointing.

Yea its just not a generational leap..

 

[KageMaru]

Correct. And I don't want to resort to posting GIFs, as above, but the cutscenes (running on dev hardware) be it the bird demo or the zelda demo could not be accomplished as they are on the PS3/360. At least not smoothly. What appears to be full global illumination would beat the living crap out of the current gen systems.

Those two demos may be slightly above what we see current gen, but neither are very demanding nor impressive. I'd be disappointed if next gen looked like those two demos.

 

[StevieP]

I hope you do know that BF3 wont run on DX9 cards ?

Damn, I'd forgot about that. An arbitrary requirement, considering what the consoles are using as their graphics hardware. What's a DX10/11 card with the equivalent power of an X1900xt?

Those two demos may be slightly above what we see current gen, but neither are very demanding nor impressive. I'd be disappointed if next gen looked like those two demos.

The bird demo, in particular, is more than "slightly above" - but regardless of semantics... There is no doubt that whatever Sony, as an example, has planned for its 2013 console is going to be better than what's in a small compact console like the Wii U. I'm only saying it's wise to temper expectations. What's been said a hundred times over in this thread ("what high end PC games look like today") sounds about right. Even a slight bit wishful thinking (i.e. 1080p/60), if you consider the argument of thermodynamics.

this thread is about next gen graphics.

Not current gen graphics in 1080p. I dont care what resolution they come with or what platform they are on.

clearly zelda demo or bf3 need not apply.

Your expectations are too high. There is no paradigm shift on the horizon.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

this thread is about next gen graphics.

Not current gen graphics in 1080p. I dont care what resolution they come with or what platform they are on.

clearly zelda demo or bf3 need not apply.

 

[Marco1]

No, in the realm of consoles - graphics have NEVER mattered. Ever. If the last few generations haven't taught you anything, the next generation won't have taught you anything either.

It's always about the software. Always. Visuals mean jack.
.

If graphics never mattered then why are killzone and uncharted pushing the bar?
Why invest so much in those games when you could cut the budget and release them a lot earlier?
If visuals don't matter then why are new console conferences littered with preview visuals of what the console will be capable of?

 

[KKRT00]

Ship level, boat yard, plane level

And what those shows? Empty desert, 3 ships on horizon and low quality water?
I can appreciate water physics, those are very impressive and whole levels moving on levels like in God of War, but thats it, rendering tech is mostly the same as U2.

 

[iamshadowlark]

No I did not. I said those 2 things will be what separate this gen from last gen. That, and a more consistent *actual* HD resolution.



Correct. And I don't want to resort to posting GIFs, as above, but the cutscenes (running on dev hardware) be it the bird demo or the zelda demo could not be accomplished as they are on the PS3/360. At least not smoothly. What appears to be full global illumination would beat the living crap out of the current gen systems.

The beauty of this gen to next gen, however, is complete scalability. Halo 4 will be released for 360, but if the Xbox3 makes it's late 2012 release date it will be released for that system as well. The equivalent in "turning the sliders up" on a PC game.

Looking at current gen's "high end" is about right in regards to expectations - simply due to how drastically the thermodynamics of high-end hardware have changed over the last half decade.

If I wasn't sure you didn't know what you were talking before , I am 100% now.

 

[duk]

4D of course

 

[StevieP]

If graphics never mattered then why are killzone and uncharted pushing the bar?
Why invest so much in those games when you could cut the budget and release them a lot earlier?
If visuals don't matter then why are new console conferences littered with preview visuals of what the console will be capable of?

Killzone sells to enthusiasts. Conferences are for enthusiasts. Developers are enthusiasts. We are those enthusiasts. It matters to us. Not to the public at large. Never has, never will.

If I wasn't sure you didn't know what you were talking before , I am 100% now.

Watch the zelda demo again. I haven't seen it since E3, but watch the fairy. At the very least - that garden demo did have GI.

am I the only one who thinks Crysis 2 and Witcher 2 are more impressive than BF3?

Art will always be subjective.

 

[daxter01]

am I the only one who thinks Crysis 2 and Witcher 2 are more impressive than BF3?

 

[DCKing]

Animation is just amount of assets. And background? You mean those low poly building or 2D images?
Lighting is ahead both games [KZ 3 dont even have HDR lol].
Particles? Ahead
Amount of geometry? Ahead
Destructibility? Ahead
Streaming? Ahead


Starting titles will look like that for sure, but next-gen will bring graphics even better than Samaritan demo ;]

You're illustrating the point nicely. UC3 and KZ3 don't do anything differently, BF3 can just use more raw power. Just because BF3 has more power available, it's not more technologically sophisticated... The next-gen will have admirably more power, but can't do things that are technologically much more sophisticated than available than this gen.

The extra power will make BF3 graphics a possibility. Maybe even more impressive when more refined for a game's platform and genre. But Samaritan is impossible. To render that, five times the amount of power was necessary that could possibly be present in the next gen consoles, and it's not even a real game.

 

[Zombie James]

:lol

Are we going to get to the point where we see beads of sweat coming out of individual pores? No, but I think with better hardware, texturing, and shaders that sort of skin and sweat detail might be possible to reproduce.

Spoiler

Just not in a fighting game.

 

[Kinyou]

4D of course

Can't wait to smell Tali's sweat

 

[Marco1]

Killzone sells to enthusiasts. Conferences are for enthusiasts. We are those enthusiasts. It matters to us. Not to the public at large. Never has, never will.



Watch the zelda demo again. I haven't seen it since E3, but watch the fairy.

Yes but it still sells, not as much as Sony likes but without it what else would make the PS3 stand out of the crowd.
Graphics always matter, it's what pulls in the crowds around the demo stations in stores and makes us queue outside at midnight for a system launch.
I admit it only applies to the hardcore and enthusiast but we still matter at least to Sony maybe not as much to MS now they have their kinect focus.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

this thread is about next gen graphics.

Not current gen graphics in 1080p. I dont care what resolution they come with or what platform they are on.

clearly zelda demo or bf3 need not apply.

thankyou.

 

[slider]

Underwhelming at first, WOWOMG in the middle, and "Is that it?" in the end.

This post is genius (although I don't think it applied entirely to my feelings about the PS2 era).

I wanna be blown away by next gen (and not just on gfx of course). But I'm not sure the market is big enough for Sony/MS/Nintendo to make monster boxes able to blow me away.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Killzone sells to enthusiasts. Conferences are for enthusiasts. Developers are enthusiasts. We are those enthusiasts. It matters to us. Not to the public at large. Never has, never will.



Watch the zelda demo again. I haven't seen it since E3, but watch the fairy. At the very least - that garden demo did have GI.



Art will always be subjective.

Look at the spider part. Thats the dead give away. But yeah it looks beyond what the ps3 could do with that ram.

Also graphics certainly sell. I can fondly remember one time at a best buy looking at someone play FNR3 and the crowd of 15 or so dropped jaws.

 

[Angelus Errare]

lol @ full global illumination. Next thing we know it people are going to start saying all the light sources are raytraced.

 

[Jonm1010]

Killzone sells to enthusiasts. Conferences are for enthusiasts. Developers are enthusiasts. We are those enthusiasts. It matters to us. Not to the public at large. Never has, never will.

There are few things in the forum world I hate more than people that make blanket assertions and then proceed to act like anyone holding another view are idiots.

If graphics had absolutely NO impact on the public at large, why then did people ever migrate from pong to the NES or from the NES to SNES or SNES to Playstation? Enthusiasts may very well hold graphics at a higher rank than non-enthusiasts. But make no mistake, graphics DO play a role in people's decision making.

You're really telling me that if two new consoles came out, one with next gen graphics and 299 price point and another company released another console at 299 with SNES graphics, that graphics wouldnt be a deciding factor?

Face it, it is. How big of a factor is another discussion. But it does matter. It most likely isnt as big a factor as enthusiasts typically believe, but it is a factor.

 

[bgassassin]

bf3 need not apply.

DICE said it does.

4D of course

That's so last gen.

 

[KKRT00]

lol @ full global illumination. Next thing we know it people are going to start saying all the light sources are raytraced.

Arent they?! I've even seen micropolygons there?!

 

[Jtrizzy]

?
Those games are the best looking in the business right now, such a level of graphics would be an ENORMOUS step up from what we have now in 1080P with everything maxed.
It's like some don't see how much worse console games' IQ look like compared to PC games. It's like night and day, just imagine your favourite game in 1080P with very high resolution textures, full HDR lighting, advanced motion blur and DoF and reflections. Something these PC games do already.
It would destroy whatever game out on consoles today.

This is how I feel. Batman AA/BF3 at 1080p60 maxed look like a huge leap. Their counterparts look like ass and run like shit, and yes I've compared them. I rented Skyrim for PS3, its hard to look at honestly.

 

[StevieP]

lol @ full global illumination. Next thing we know it people are going to start saying all the light sources are raytraced.

Would you prefer the term "high quality"?

Graphics matter snip.

Please list the best selling consoles of the past few generations. Include handhelds for good measure.

 

[-SD-]

Let's rewind to 5 and a half years ago...

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

this is what Im really pulling for next gen the unreal engine 3 environments overview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XahF-3DWo

 

[Jonm1010]

Would you prefer the term "high quality"?



Please list the best selling consoles of the past few generations. Include handhelds for good measure.

Human decision making is not a zero sum game. Consumers do not determine their purchases solely on just graphics, but just because it might not be the main driver, does not mean it carries no weight.

You seem to think that despite the very real fact that aesthetics and beauty in almost all aspects of human lives, which plays a role in our decision making - from who we are attracted to, to what sort of decor we put in out homes, to what food looks most appetizing - somehow doesnt carry over to videogame consoles. Where literally you are dealing with a visual medium that relies in a very large part on aesthetics in the image presented.

Can other things influence and override that basic human attraction to beauty? Sure, we see it in all things in life, but to make a blanket statement that asserts it plays NO role whatsoever goes against human nature. If I have two identical games in every aspect except one has gorgeous direct-x 11 graphics on an HDTV and the other is a SNES graphics game, 99 out of 100 people are picking the former over the latter.

 

[domlolz]

Some of you are way too fucking optimistic, is this the first time you've witnessed the run up to a next generation of consoles? You are setting yourself up for a big disappointment and the people who point to current PC games are being a lot more realistic.

Just look at PC games from 2005, the year the Xbox 360 launched.

 

[Fraeon]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the big 3 went for the approach of "minor upgrade + gimmick".

I mean, games and games hardware cost a shitload to make already. You'd think that there'd be pressure from the publishers for this kind of thing too.

 

[-tetsuo-]

kameo smoked the shit out of farcry

same with pd0

Far Cry came out in like March 2004

 

[LeleSocho]

What ?

Zelda on wiiu did look impressive

Yes this aliasing at this level of detail for a 2012 console is just impressive

seriously from what we've seen (and I'm not saying it will remain like this) the wiiu is very very disappointing

 

[iamshadowlark]

Some of you are way too fucking optimistic, is this the first time you've witnessed the run up to a next generation of consoles? You are setting yourself up for a big disappointment and the people who point to current PC games are being a lot more realistic.

Just look at PC games from 2005, the year the Xbox 360 launched.

You mean like oblivion and prey or total war? This gen blew past those handily if I do say so my self.

Edit: For better clarification, when you all say look at high end pc games, are you referring to the lower extremes(launch) or upper(4 or 5 years in) of what a console could do?

 

[aperman]

anyone remember the fermi renders?

 

[-SD-]

anyone remember the fermi renders?

Yeah, except those had nothing to do with NVIDIA or Fermi.

http://www.onesize.nl/blog/discussions/nvidia-fermi-gt300

http://www.onesize.nl/projects/playgrounds-titles-2009

 

[StevieP]

Yes this aliasing at this level of detail for a 2012 console is just impressive

seriously from what we've seen (and I'm not saying it will remain like this) the wiiu is very very disappointing

That's a blown-up image, which introduces its own artifacting/aliasing.

Human decision making is not a zero sum game. Consumers do not determine their purchases solely on just graphics, but just because it might not be the main driver, does not mean it carries no weight.

You seem to think that despite the very real fact that aesthetics and beauty in almost all aspects of human lives, which plays a role in our decision making - from who we are attracted to, to what sort of decor we put in out homes, to what food looks most appetizing - somehow doesnt carry over to videogame consoles. Where literally you are dealing with a visual medium that relies in a very large part on aesthetics in the image presented.

Can other things influence and override that basic human attraction to beauty? Sure, we see it in all things in life, but to make a blanket statement that asserts it plays NO role whatsoever goes against human nature. If I have two identical games in every aspect except one has gorgeous direct-x 11 graphics on an HDTV and the other is a SNES graphics game, 99 out of 100 people are picking the former over the latter.

Not to say it doesn't play a factor, but NSMB Wii outsold Galaxy and sells on par with Call of Duty (but on a single platform).

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

1080p output, high resolution assets to match 1080p, 60fps standard...

There's already BF3, Witcher 2 and Metro 2033 on PC that does these.

maybe 4k resolution in the middle of the generation?

Thats a very important points. If the devs really want to go with 1080p the quality of ingame assets need to improve dramatically. With current assets most games look/would look like shit in 1080p because all those low res stuff would get exposed heavily and be very aggressive on the eyes.

If the new consoles are not powerful enough to do both they should settle with 720p and focus the power on the ingame assets and framerate.

 

[DCKing]

this thread is about next gen graphics.

Not current gen graphics in 1080p. I dont care what resolution they come with or what platform they are on.

clearly zelda demo or bf3 need not apply.

In the OP you asked about "what we might see on the next consoles" . If you don't want to talk about this stuff you should open a thread "Tech demo graphics we might see on PC in 5 years". Please let us discuss reality in this thread at least.

 

[Jonm1010]

That's a blown-up image, which introduces its own artifacting/aliasing.



Not to say it doesn't play a factor, but NSMB Wii outsold Galaxy and sells on par with Call of Duty (but on a single platform).

Like I said, graphics are certainly NOT the be all end all.

I would actually bet that if you and I sat down and hashed it out we would come to very similar conclusions in terms of how much influence they actually have. The only thing I took issue with is the notion it has absolutely no factor, in all cases, across the board.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Thats a very important points. If the devs really want to go with 1080p the quality of ingame assets need to improve dramatically. With current assets most games look/would look like shit in 1080p because all those low res stuff would get exposed heavily and be very aggressive on the eyes.

If the new consoles are not powerful enough to do both they should settle with 720p and focus the power on the ingame assets and framerate.

You do realize that, for most every game in the last 3 or 4 years that game assets are made at much higher fidelities than the normal mapped final results you see in a console game today. With more power you can virtually eliminate the need for such tedious fine-tuning, skip the process of making a normal map and can get straight to rigging your characters and such, while saving a bit of dough. Less man hours per asset = less cost($) per asset.

Hell I could go on with a bunch of reasons why next gen development wouldn't be so costly as this one..

 

[AtomicShroom]

I can't believe the amount of PC Defense Force in this thread. Wow...

Next-gen console games will look no significantly better than current PC games? Really!? Are you just nuts? Are you just dismissing the entire history of generational leaps ever?

Every single time the consoles had a generation leap, the graphics were way ahead of anything that could be done on the PC at the time. Oh sure, PCs catch up pretty quickly (within a year or two), but you're just being delusional if you think that next-gen console games won't completely obliterate anything that is actually on PC.

Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Kameo or Perfect Dark Zero when they came out.
Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Super Mario 64 when it came out.
Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Sonic Adventure when it came out.

The upcoming gen won't be any different!

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

I can't believe the amount of PC Defense Force in this thread. Wow...

Next-gen console games will look no significantly better than current PC games? Really!? Are you just nuts? Are you just dismissing the entire history of generational leaps ever?

Every single time the consoles had a generation leap, the graphics were way ahead of anything that could be done on the PC at the time. Oh sure, PCs catch up pretty quickly (within a year or two), but you're just being delusional if you think that next-gen console games won't completely obliterate anything that is actually on PC.

Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Kameo or Perfect Dark Zero when they came out.
Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Super Mario 64 when it came out.
Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Sonic Adventure when it came out.

The upcoming gen won't be any different!

Wanna bet?

 

[Pimpbaa]

I think the games will look better than almost anything on pc currently mainly due to games being built from the ground for dx11+ class hardware along with locked down specs. Although the PC ports of these games will look better on appropriate hardware (better IQ and framerates). Also screenshots will never do any of the games justice (moreso than this gen) because of stuff like much better lighting and much more advanced physics that can only be appreciated in motion.

 

[Kikarian]

this is what Im really pulling for next gen the unreal engine 3 environments overview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XahF-3DWo

That looks so nice.

 

[StevieP]

Like I said, graphics are certainly NOT the be all end all.

I would actually bet that if you and I sat down and hashed it out we would come to very similar conclusions in terms of how much influence they actually have. The only thing I took issue with is the notion it has absolutely no factor, in all cases, across the board.

I agree that they play *a* role. Of course. Just that the role is very minor in the "selling" of a new console. It's mostly software that people want that does that. Us enthusiasts sure as hell give a damn, but in the eyes of the general consumer it is all about providing them with software that they want to play. If graphics matter *that* much, we'd all be playing PC exclusives.

I can't believe the amount of PC Defense Force in this thread. Wow...

Next-gen console games will look no significantly better than current PC games? Really!? Are you just nuts? Are you just dismissing the entire history of generational leaps ever?

Every single time the consoles had a generation leap, the graphics were way ahead of anything that could be done on the PC at the time. Oh sure, PCs catch up pretty quickly (within a year or two), but you're just being delusional if you think that next-gen console games won't completely obliterate anything that is actually on PC.

Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Kameo or Perfect Dark Zero when they came out.
Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Super Mario 64 when it came out.
Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Sonic Adventure when it came out.

The upcoming gen won't be any different!

I don't even know where to start.

If Epic are aiming for the Samaritan, then that's what we should hope for

From previous page, from previous month:

I swear, Samaritan has completely poisoned the discussion of next generation consoles.

1) *none* of the next gen consoles will have the computational power required to render it
2) "bu-bu-bu it can be optimized for one GTX 580, they said!" equates to the downscaling of resolution, textures, light sources, etc. not to mention a GTX 580 is too hot and power hungry still for a console and its 22nm counterparts aren't going to help you here. Whatever is going into a 2012 console is not going to be a 2013 part.
3) Samaritan was a cutscene. There was no "game code" in it. By design, more of its i7+3 tri-SLI GTX 580s could be used to shiny it up
4) The cost to create a game that looks like that the whole way through for is not feasible, even if we had $799 consoles with the required minimum hardware for it

The end. Stop looking at it.

 

[Satchel]

Bf3 maxed out doesn't look that much better than the console version (I've played both) So...

What?

Battlefield 3 on 360 (only one I've played) looks disgraceful. One of the worst looking shooters this gen. PC version better look a gen better or we're in deep shit.

If Epic are aiming for the Samaritan, then that's what we should hope for

 

[Lazy Jones]

Nothing on PC looked anywhere near close to Kameo or Perfect Dark Zero when they

Doom 3 looks better than PDZ.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Doom 3 looks better than PDZ.

*Waits for someone to post a screenshot of that ONE wall that had POM*

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Some of you are, for some reason, selling the next-gen consoles short. When they first come out they will eclipse current PC capabilities- this has always been the case with every console generation (Wii notwithstanding). Then in 1 year the PC will be ahead again. That's the cycle.

 

[Luckyman]

Correct. And I don't want to resort to posting GIFs, as above, but the cutscenes (running on dev hardware) be it the bird demo or the zelda demo could not be accomplished as they are on the PS3/360. At least not smoothly. What appears to be full global illumination would beat the living crap out of the current gen systems.

lol there was absolutely nothing impressive in those demos other than Zelda in HD