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[Crayon]

You know one big change in software development over the decades has been that users expectations are adapted to software that updates and gets better. Users know that if they try something and it sucks, they can come back later and it might be different. That's why stuff comes out but can turn out to be successful later on because people will give it another chance. They've been pushing half finished games for a long time and they would have stopped by now if it was losing money on balance. Put out the game basically early access and then decide how to develop it from there. Or abandon it and save the trouble.

 

[Hugare]

If u got devteam where only 10-15% of devs are guys who carry whole team, ofc those teams gonna be not on shedule and suffering, its normal, its like in team sports- u are always as strong as ur weakest link.

Assumptions

Was CDPR "woke" when they made TW3? Bethesda "woke" when they made Skyrim? Rockstar "woke" when they made GTA4/5/RDR?

Is there any evidence that Respawn and Arkane are worke and thats why their games suffered?

If there is no evidence that those companies had more blue-haired neutral gender people working for them instead of the "guys" that you mentioned, then please stop with this shit

The much more plausible argument is: games are getting harder and harder to make.

Sony 1st party titles dont suffer much? No shit. They have infinite budget and all the talented people in the industry are either working there or wants to work there.

And even them are suffering lately with some hiccups: H:FW had terrible IQ in performance mode for months since launch, Ragnarok was way less polished than GOW 2018 and TLOU Part I on PC was a mess.

And they only develop for 4 machines, 2 if next gen exclusive.

3d party devs are making games for 8 different pieces of hardware when making crossgen games.

And PC ports are suffering like hell due to UE4 shader compilation stuff and other DX 12 implications. And things will get even worse for PC once current gen games come with full force.

 

[StueyDuck]

This is gonna be contentious and is gonna be based purely on speculation using personal experience in Dev ops but not gaming dev.

Biggest cause is bad management. That's no surprise it happens in all development, but the contentious part is that I think game development has become too focused and almost strangled by its art departments.

I mean we know insomniac had a toxic influence of pink hairs running character art and destroying progress made on a game because a furry cat thing had slight boobs.

Games are releasing poorly made as well as poorly optimized not only because they are mismanaged and rushed, but also because the wrong people in the company have the vocal superiority. You'll find engine leads are screaming at the boss about stuttering issues and bugs but the boss needs to focus Dev time on accessibility options and which completely non essential side character is sleeping with the same sex because that's what Twitter says we should focus on.

Also finally my last opinion... outsourcing. If you've ever worked with a foreign outsourced dev house (not saying which country In particular but those who know will know) they are absolutely fucking useless at software development.

 

[Black_Stride]

Let me show you how it has always been like this

Note: all games that I'll mention below has a MC score higher than 90

Rockstar alone:

- GTA 4 had many performance issues and ran at 640p on the PS3. Sits at 98 MC.
- Red Dead Redemption also had many performance issues and ran at 640p. Sits at a 95 MC.
- GTA V was a total clusterfuck on both consoles, running worse than GTA 4 or RDR, with terrible pop in and running at sub 20 FPS at times. Sits at a 97 MC score.

Skyrim was literally unplayable on PS3 due to a bug that bloated savefiles, making the game run lower than 10 FPS



Guess the MC score. 92 MC.

The Witcher 3 also had many performance problems that were solved many months after the original launch.

I could go on and on.

My point is, people are now more critical about this shit. Hell, some people cant even play at 30 FPS anymore.

PS3/360 to PS4/XONE was a huge jump, and now with the 60 FPS on newer consoles, people expect even more in terms of performance/IQ and etc.

And games are getting more and more complex in terms of tech. Most devs are suffering like hell to keep up. So things will get worse.

No you fool.
Its woman and minorities causing these issues.
Not that PS360 was effectively the beginning of the end for mass quality games coming out back to back.

People forgot how bad PS360 games actually were......they would launch in a frikken state....we just used to stomach it.
I cant even remember how many PS3 games had absolutely atrocious framerates and resolutions.

But the woke agenda is clearly killing game development.....or is it snowflakes who have found a new word to mask their hate?

 

[kikkis]

Woke fricken agenda, no crunch, when those dev studios hire according to diversity quota instead of actual talent u go tons of really bad products being made, on top again- woke agenda from ppl deciding about priorities of the game, its not quality anymore but more often than not sticking it to those evil white men ;X

I think crunch culture and low wages for senior engineers have driven lot of them of the game industry. I mean artists and game designers etc. can crunch like no tomorrow, they don't have options and are expendable. I big symptom for this much less custom engines, talent catered to epic since they dont have to crunch and can provide much better wages.

 

[Team Andromeda]

To me WOKE is more about not telling workers they don't need to work longer hours and you can work from home. It's not just game development that is suffering from this work from home, family friendly stuff.
The HR dept in my work our a joke and still working from home and shielding from COVID, trying to get a Social Worker to come on the ward is still an issue and trying to see a doctor at the surgery is now almost a privilege

I have family members who work at the DVLA in Jack land (Swansea) and they'll tell you, many staff are taking the piss 'working' from home while the massive backlog just grows.

 

[Yoboman]

Its true, thats why i hope western companies go back to proven method on hiring them, but for the right reasons, aka not coz they are women, but simply hardworking/talented workers, recently we got another proof what wokeism in games journalism/big site leads to, and its nothing good https://www.neogaf.com/threads/waypoint-shutting-down-all-staff-laid-off.1655945/

I think you're way too invested in this twitter culture war mentality my dude. Most people in the real world don't care about this shit, they just want a job they enjoy and can be good at and pay they can be comfortable in

 

[Ronin_7]

Woke fricken agenda, no crunch, when those dev studios hire according to diversity quota instead of actual talent u go tons of really bad products being made, on top again- woke agenda from ppl deciding about priorities of the game, its not quality anymore but more often than not sticking it to those evil white men ;X

As John Carmack once Said "in game development working 40H a Week should probably be considered a part time".

 

[Quantum253]

Woke fricken agenda, no crunch, when those dev studios hire according to diversity quota instead of actual talent u go tons of really bad products being made, on top again- woke agenda from ppl deciding about priorities of the game, its not quality anymore but more often than not sticking it to those evil white men ;X

As someone in the middle of this, I can agree. Post Covid Organizational value statement changes to reflect pure EDI pillars. As a result, organization values reflect activism over capitalism/meritocracy. Instead of focusing on foundational values Executive leadership now focus mostly on implementing policies/procedures/mandatory training designed by external consulaltants (that are very agenda driven). These items are prime concerns, and require buyoff from all leadership levels. In what feel like specific demoarlization campaigns to weed out dissenting options, corrective action can be applied to bring individuals onboard. To your point....

As a result, the talent pool was shattered. Top-tier talent left quickly and mostly replaced with external hires. Second tier talent was either denied promotions/upward career momentum, then asked to support and train new hires lacking skills to effectively perform tasks. (over worked/under paid and walking on eggshells). Most tier II talent leaves and external hires brought in. The cycle repeats all the way down.
Organizational changes have a tendency to shake things up, but this is like a 9.0 earthquake. Nothing gets done, or at least correctly, and projects are in a constant state of crisis and vision/direction is all over the place and in fluctuation. If game studios are experiencing these types of changes, there will he many more titles that come out in an unfinished state in which most consumers havent experienced. Of course, we'll still get amazing games from teams that are fully functional, but there are many organizations hanging on by a thread.

 

[PeteBull]

Is there any evidence that Respawn and Arkane are worke and thats why their games suffered?

Arkane definitely was, and again- u gotta look at management too, when ur top priority as game dev isnt highest quality of the game, then ofc game wont be top quality, hell many times even if u strive hard game will have many flaws, but if u put quality of the game not as priority u lose the race before it even started.

Games u mentioned were all amazing,despite their flaws those games at their core were really good/wellthought, no game is flawless, even tetris

 

[PeteBull]

I think you're way too invested in this twitter culture war mentality my dude. Most people in the real world don't care about this shit, they just want a job they enjoy and can be good at and pay they can be comfortable in

0 investments, bro, i dont even own twitter/facebook accounts, coz fk that shit, but thread was made so i simply voiced my opinion, nothing wrong with that, ofc gotta keep it all civil, we arent savages after all

In the end talent/hard work prevails, hence good games selling, and bad games bombing( few exceptions tho, till this day i got huge chip on my shoulder and regret about sony closing their japan studio, it had such a nice history and so tremendous potential, wish it didnt happen but what u gonna do.

 

[Madserb2023]

Honestly I believe it is down to the same thing that effected the Japanese game industry during the HD era and that is not making what you are good at and ultimately making a poor imitation of your competitors game. I want the very best JRPG you can make not a soulless version of Skyrim that the developers clearly didn't want to make. Resident Evil 6 is what Capcom thought people wanted to play. Resident Evil 7 is what they wanted to make. Arkane are good at making story driven single games with multi-layed worlds not whatever the hell Redfall is. Do what you are good at. Not looking forward to Fable for the same reason. Sony devs make what they are good at.

 

[Hugare]

Arkane definitely was, and again- u gotta look at management too, when ur top priority as game dev isnt highest quality of the game, then ofc game wont be top quality, hell many times even if u strive hard game will have many flaws, but if u put quality of the game not as priority u lose the race before it even started.

Games u mentioned were all amazing,despite their flaws those games at their core were really good/wellthought, no game is flawless, even tetris

If management is to blame, then your argument about some guys carrying the whole company on their backs dont make sense. Even them in that situation wouldnt be able to ship a decent game.

About Arkane being woke: let me see those receipts. Harvey Smith said something about politics in games always being present or something, but if that all the "wokeness" that you can get from the studio, then sorry, but it isnt enough to make a point.

No you fool.
Its woman and minorities causing these issues.
Not that PS360 was effectively the beginning of the end for mass quality games coming out back to back.

People forgot how bad PS360 games actually were......they would launch in a frikken state....we just used to stomach it.
I cant even remember how many PS3 games had absolutely atrocious framerates and resolutions.

But the woke agenda is clearly killing game development.....or is it snowflakes who have found a new word to mask their hate?

Remember Bayonetta running on half the framerate of the 360 version?

30 fps when 360 was doing 60?

Good times

People would loose their shit if Platinum pulled that off nowadays. They would get cancelled asap.

 

[UnNamed]

It's easy:

Workforce is at 80% made by people at their first job.
This because talented coders who see assembly as they see line in matrix are gone because stress, poor organization and salary, most of them are at Google and Microsoft now with 200K a year coding on a relaxing couch.
So you have a project with 300 people where 200 people are kids who left the school and it's their first try at writing a code.

 

[gaming_again]

Narrowing 'woke' down to hiring women and minorities is a wilfully ignorant argument or a purposely ungenerous interpretation. Women and minorities have always been involved in games. That is not the issue.

Here are some issues that stem from wokeness.

• Diversity hiring means an upending of meritocracy. Which means competent people fixing other peoples' mistakes. Wasted time and energy.
• The current Western idea that subversion is the only expression with artistic merit means you get people in the workspace who are there only to go against the product. This will drift into wanting to subvert the company culture. Eventually management is replaced by people who actively dislike what the company does and who it makes products for. Why does that new Scooby Doo exist? Why is the Witcher TV show so appalling? These are the logical extension of wishing to subvert.
• The increasing power of HR, a role which naturally attracts busybodies, creates a snitching culture. Less risky things are spoken about, and what you say defines what you think. Games become less risky as a result.
• Ideas such as decolonisation and toxic masculinity are propagated by the people these new powerful HR centres hire. Somebody earlier asked if The Witcher 3 was woke. Of course not. It was created before 2015. The before time. Last night I was playing it and Geralt compared a monster you fight to somebody's wife. Imagine that being written now? And how are you supposed to write dialogue for a game starring big, burley, violent men who want to kill things and fuck people? Asmongold put out a video the other day where he complained that the genocide of dragons had to be justified by them being too old. All of these things seem small, but they compound, twisting games into safe, timid, inoffensive, products designed to appeal to as many people as possible.
• The obsession with accessability and inclusivity. Artistic expressions should not aim to do this. Art should be uncompromising and demanding. Look at the success of Elden Ring. Gamers know this.

Saying somebody who is against wokeness is a racist or that it is a distraction from robber governments and is fake is a mid talking point. People who champion meritocracy - the opposite of wokeness - are by definition not racist. And the culture war/wokeness is very real. I am watching the West destroy two things I love and grew up obsessed with: Books and museums. Art was lost a long time ago. TV is being wrestled back somehow. Western games have been captured. Take them back and stop making excuses for this poison seeping into every part of our culture.

 

[Krathoon]

Game Development used to be a black art. Now, you got all these engines and libraries you can use.

 

[Corndog]

Consumers and capitalism are to blame. And in this case (i cant believe i am even typing this) its actually the consumers who are the main problem.

If someone game me money for my products before i even finished them id gladly serve him half of an unfinished game too and id slowly sell him the rest as dlc. Thats exactly what theyve paid for and they deserve it at that point.

How is capitalism the problem? Let me guess, you go to work for free right.

 

[NikuNashi]

No you fool.
Its woman and minorities causing these issues.
Not that PS360 was effectively the beginning of the end for mass quality games coming out back to back.

People forgot how bad PS360 games actually were......they would launch in a frikken state....we just used to stomach it.
I cant even remember how many PS3 games had absolutely atrocious framerates and resolutions.

But the woke agenda is clearly killing game development.....or is it snowflakes who have found a new word to mask their hate?

It's NOT 'women and minorities'. Nobody in the thread said that. It's a hiring process that is pushing for equality of outcome in staff breakdown directly effecting the meritocracy.

Stop with this twisted takes, if you hire on any other factor than ability then you are causing this regression in quality in teams. Now you will say show me that companies are quota hiring, well it's illegal and thus extremely difficult to prove but if you have or are working in any large company you will see this push happening, it's blatant and open. Look at the studio group shots of all the women together with unnaturally dyed hair being paraded in front of social media for some points scoring. Look at Jason Schreirs (don't know how to spell his name and don't really care) comments on that newly formed team that happened to be all white, how he derided them as not being progressive without playing or seeing a single frame of a game.

In the 80's when anyone who played games lest made games was seen as a social outcast, a nerd, a virgin, a geek, the only people who made games were die hard gamers who loved the medium. Absolutely lived for it. Now fast forward to today where gaming is 'cool' and everyone wants a piece of the pie.

 

[Woopah]

The last ten years western AAA studios have been about diversity over talent and it's quite obvious. The first question journalists ask a director now is about representation. That's what gets attention and clicks so studios have to move to focus on that because these huge games rely on image and advertising to sell games so they have to remain pure in the eyes of the press. There's also a very seedy in-culture between devs and journalists who are all part of this insane cult who are absolutely hellbent on destroying this medium from within and without with their niche worldview. They have a hold on the west and are desperately trying to claw into Japan but thankfully they've been largely unsuccessful.

But why assume that hiring based on talent results in everyone being the same?

Having to choose between talent and diversity is a myth. You do both.

Do you not work in a corporate environment? It's eating up all productivity and time and energy everywhere else, why should games be any different?

I work in a corporate environment with gender targets and a diversity and inclusion strategy.

We've hit our targets and no part of that strategy was "hire based on gender" or "give jobs to untalented people"

Now, let's remember the team that made the biggest wake in the industry :

I hate going there, like i love women, i have 2 daughters that i would give everything to.
Maybe we just don't think the same? Spatial orientation being a key aspect of 3D game design?

Also maybe if managers would not ask the male devs to step aside for a women exclusive photo for their PR, you would focus more on making your game, shut your mouth and let the sales speak for themselves? Maybe stop putting diversity on the front page of all your identity as a studio? Was a lot of those female devs hired for quota filling rather than talent?

For sure there's talent

But the TSUNAMI of them, for sure there's quota filling

If your goal is to attract talented women to your company, then this sort of PR is the kind of thing that can work really well. That way you don't do quota filling.

There's no reason to assume that games are bad simply because women are involved. I mean, look at Cyberpunk for example. Is it reasonable to blame its failure on a "TSUNAMI of men"?

 

[Madserb2023]

While I don't think wokeness is the main reason as I have stated in a previous comment. Hiring not on ability is ridiculous. Gladly it doesn't happen in manufacturing. Could you imagine flying on a plane that was built by people not employed on their ability to construct. There are statistical realities such as the number of coders based on sex with males being absolutely dominant in percentage terms. So if you have a game company and 50% of the coders are women the odds of them being chosen on ability is statistically about as unlikely as it gets. There is nothing progressive about given people jobs based on gender and race unless you think the Nazis were right.

 

[T4keD0wN]

How is capitalism the problem? Let me guess, you go to work for free right.

Goal of capitalism is to make maximum profits while spending the minimum amount possible and that means saving as much money as possible on development, technology and you guessed it talented workers. Notice how game prices went up while their quality went down? Its also the reason why they are pushing out products before they are finished, because they want to save costs at the expense of quality.

Another goal is to pay workers the minimum possible amount they will accept which will limit the talentpool available to them. Your argument makes no sense, if anything it prevents them from hiring better workers and paying them more.

 

[Black_Stride]

It's NOT 'women and minorities'. Nobody in the thread said that. It's a hiring process that is pushing for equality of outcome in staff breakdown directly effecting the meritocracy.

Stop with this twisted takes, if you hire on any other factor than ability then you are causing this regression in quality in teams. Now you will say show me that companies are quota hiring, well it's illegal and thus extremely difficult to prove but if you have or are working in any large company you will see this push happening, it's blatant and open. Look at the studio group shots of all the women together with unnaturally dyed hair being paraded in front of social media for some points scoring. Look at Jason Schreirs (don't know how to spell his name and don't really care) comments on that newly formed team that happened to be all white, how he derided them as not being progressive without playing or seeing a single frame of a game.

In the 80's when anyone who played games lest made games was seen as a social outcast, a nerd, a virgin, a geek, the only people who made games were die hard gamers who loved the medium. Absolutely lived for it. Now fast forward to today where gaming is 'cool' and everyone wants a piece of the pie.

I thought the woke agenda was specifically about women and minorities?

Care to explain the woke agenda to me then, cuz clearly i dont understand it.

 

[Mr Wonderstuff]

Nothing to do with 'woke'. Just corporate greed, poor management and communication, cynical attitude towards gamers.

 

[LostDonkey]

Lately???

Sure.

 

[gaming_again]

But why assume that hiring based on talent results in everyone being the same?

Having to choose between talent and diversity is a myth. You do both.

I work in a corporate environment with gender targets and a diversity and inclusion strategy.

We've hit our targets and no part of that strategy was "hire based on gender" or "give jobs to untalented people"


If your goal is to attract talented women to your company, then this sort of PR is the kind of thing that can work really well. That way you don't do quota filling.

There's no reason to assume that games are bad simply because women are involved. I mean, look at Cyberpunk for example. Is it reasonable to blame its failure on a "TSUNAMI of men"?

Two words, one name: Kamala Harris.

You are very lucky then. And perhaps you live in an ethnically diverse area. My issues with this are that a) true diversity goes beyond physical characteristics and b) lots of people live and work in ethnically homogenous areas.

A great example of point a) is a report I read yesterday on how in America, the red and blue states have different approaches to ESG investing. The report talked about the pros and cons of this for investors. Many places I've worked at would have wanted a report slamming the red states and their staff would have been only too happy to oblige. This was diversity of thought producing value for the firm's clients.

Re point B) There is a McKinsey (I think) stat that I see EVERYWHERE stating that more ethnically diverse firms are more profitable than ethnically homogenous firms. What this report fails to mention is that more ethnically diverse firms tend to operate in cities, which benefit from the network effect their location provides. AKA the McKinsey stat is a sham that governments and big institutions use to justify practices that serve their agenda.

In the UK our regulator wants to punish firms of a certain size for not ticking the boxes for its staffing and board members. This will slowly creep down to smaller and smaller firms. England is 81% white, with ethnic minorities highly concentrated in certain areas of the country. You can't hire for both talent and (ethnic) diversity outside of these places.

And how much energy do you think is being spent coming up with all of this?

 

[lh032]

I think hybrid workplace is still the best method tbh.

100% remote working spells trouble

 

[NikuNashi]

"


If your goal is to attract talented women to your company, then this sort of PR is the kind of thing that can work really well. That way you don't do quota filling.

This is insane . How can you have a goal of attracting women and not be quota filling?. If you hired based on meritocracy you wouldnt have any goals of attracting any gender, only talent.

 

[Black_Stride]

Remember Bayonetta running on half the framerate of the 360 version?

30 fps when 360 was doing 60?

Good times

People would loose their shit if Platinum pulled that off nowadays. They would get cancelled asap.

SplinterCell Double Agent literally never hit 30fps.
Battlefield 3......mate.
Fallout New Vegas...could struggle to hit frikken 20fps!
Mass Effect 2......and 3.
Shadow of Mordor......barely playable.
Enslaved....this game would literally just straight up skip frames cuz fuck it.

And I could keep going and going, the PS360 generation was rough people just forgot how rough it was.

But clearly its the woke agenda thats causing these much more complicated to make games to be technical messes now.

 

[PeteBull]

Corporate greed was there 20years ago, and before too, guys, thats the thing, humans are greedy on avg, and thats ok, thats incentive to make good products, we can see with gamepass how no incentive to release good products affects quality of games.
Gamepass= no reason for game to be good- u already paid subscription fee, so no reason to delay game if its bad/bugged af- it wont sell either way coz its "free" on gamepass.

Btw- i guarantee u any1 blaming capitalism/praising communism/socialism would cry and want to go back to their mommy if u put the person in actual communist state- as regular citizen, not as a tourist, aka eastern block countries before communism fell.

U guys living in the west for the most part have no idea what it was like living under such circumstances- creativity/striving for perfection/quality of products were non existant back then, oh- and there were still commoners and elites, just divide was ur avg country citizen vs political police/higher ups from communist party, so there was no equality there at all, just powerty was so nasty u had to save for months to buy simple pair of jeans, ofc if it was avaiable, mostly it wasnt cos simply store shelves were empty- one positive tho, since back then we had no chocolate products- overall society was much fitter/slimmer

 

[Madserb2023]

I thought the woke agenda was specifically about women and minorities?

Care to explain the woke agenda to me then, cuz clearly i dont understand it.

The issue with the debate around wokeness is that it has mutated over recent years to something that it was not originally intended to be. It was simply about being aware of the injustices of society past and present from slavery to domestic abuse and when it was that, you didn't hear much opposition outside of people you wouldn't want to converse with. The issue is that it expanded to area where most don't see as an injustice such as meritocracy which modern society was built upon or at least tries to. The historic/feudal world was built on the opposite. You got a job, position based on who you were not your ability. Basically the monarchy. You should go in to an exam and get the job based on getting the best mark. It shouldn't be if you are white you get 10 points taken away, if your Asian 20 points and if you are black get 10 points added. The irony is that the Nazis would have agreed but they would have given whites the advantage. Its definitely a step back.8

 

[CuteFaceJay]

possible the real talent have now gone into retirement and or cashed out of the industry. Leaving only artists and audio teams behind to do the best they can given who's now working on the code.

 

[Black_Stride]

The issue with the debate around wokeness is that it has mutated over recent years to something that it was not originally intended to be. It was simply about being aware of the injustices of society past and present from slavery to domestic abuse and when it was that, you didn't hear much opposition outside of people you wouldn't want to converse with. The issue is that it expanded to area where most don't see as an injustice such as meritocracy which modern society was built upon or at least tries to. The historic/feudal world was built on the opposite. You got a job, position based on who you were not your ability. Basically the monarchy. You should go in to an exam and get the job based on getting the best mark. It shouldn't be if you are white you get 10 points taken away, if your Asian 20 points and if you are black get 10 points added. The irony is that the Nazis would have agreed but they would have given whites the advantage. Its definitely a step back.8

So when people say the woke agenda, what are they talking about?

What is the woke agenda that is killing game development?

 

[PeteBull]

So when people say the woke agenda, what are they talking about?

What is the woke agenda that is killing game development?

Come on bro, even 40yo fart like myself knows this, unless u are some prehistoric beast living under a rock last 10years u know full well whats woke and what isnt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke u got good info on it even on english wiki, so alien from outer space or chatgpt could read/understand it =D

 

[Madserb2023]

So when people say the woke agenda, what are they talking about?

What is the woke agenda that is killing game development?

I don't like the term woke agenda because it implies that its monolithic. It's more like feminism where it has different groups/waves who don't even agree with each other. If I can boil it down, I would say the Woke agenda is similar to destruction of old buildings in the 60s/70s. They did it because they were old and represented what they believed to be a past that was not seen in a good light at the time, not because they were not fit for purpose. We are going against ideas that were seen as intrinsic modern western values 20 years ago. In regards to meritocracy we are going to pre 18th century levels of thinking.

 

[Black_Stride]

Come on bro, even 40yo fart like myself knows this, unless u are some prehistoric beast living under a rock last 10years u know full well whats woke and what isnt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke u got good info on it even on english wiki, so alien from outer space or chatgpt could read/understand it =D

Im Black. (in case the username didnt give it away)

I know the "original" meaning of woke.
But the way people are using in this thread, I dont understand.

The woke agenda is whats causing the games to be bad now? (ignoring the PS360 generation, unless the woke agenda was also at work then)


<--Also worked as outsourcing in the game industry, I know the struggle.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

It's corporate greed.

Absolutely nothing else.

Executives want a maximum personal profit for minimum outlay. They've got used to an audience that will hoover any old shit up, and have seen that they can put broken games out that make millions, with little effort on their part.

There it is, the sensible response. It's this I imagine.

Most AAA publishers aren't accepting that games take much longer to make now and still want to release games quickly to line their pockets and please investors. We have some evidence of this in Jedi Survivor and Redfall being recent examples.

Bad game design? That'll be where companies just want to play it safe or follow trends. Originality in the AAA space is largely dead, if you want that then play AA or indie games, that's where it's at anyway.

 

[hemo memo]

Excuses? Bad management? Shady tactics? Greed? Filling woke quotas?

 

[PeteBull]

Im Black. (in case the username didnt give it away)

I know the "original" meaning of woke.
But the way people are using in this thread, I dont understand.

The woke agenda is whats causing the games to be bad now? (ignoring the PS360 generation, unless the woke agenda was also at work then)


<--Also worked as outsourcing in the game industry, I know the struggle.

U can be even purple, dont bring up ur skin color, im ur fellow gaf user- not woke company recruiter, no reason for that, if u worked in game industry u know how much sacrifice it takes to stay relevant/be succesful in there, so im in no need to explain it to u

 

[Black_Stride]

U can be even purple, dont bring up ur skin color, im ur fellow gaf user- not woke company recruiter, no reason for that, if u worked in game industry u know how much sacrifice it takes to stay relevant/be succesful in there, so im in no need to explain it to u

Well you can atleast explain to me how the "woke agenda" is causing games to be bad now.(again ignoring the PS360 generation.)
From what I can tell, its not the art departments that are killing game development, and on the techart and programming side, if you dont pull your weight no amount of quota filling will save you, best case scenario is you are place in non-critical roles concepting games/projects that never see the light of day.
So how exactly is the so called woke agenda influencing bad game development.

Thats the whole point of the this discussion is it not?

 

[RoboFu]

They're a ton of smaller issues that can add up for sure but it all really comes down to a lack of experienced producers / directors .

There has been many times when changing out a producer or director has literally saved games and series.

Without a knowledgeable experienced producer / director to keep all those things in check you are just going to get a bloated mess of a unoptimized game.

But also I think probably these days it's hard for a producer / director with no real clout to compete with modern ideologies. So you will have to have a company that fully backs them as well.

 

[Madserb2023]

Well you can atleast explain to me how the "woke agenda" is causing games to be bad now.(again ignoring the PS360 generation.)
From what I can tell, its not the art departments that are killing game development, and on the techart and programming side, if you dont pull your weight no amount of quota filling will save you, best case scenario is you are place in non-critical roles concepting games/projects that never see the light of day.
So how exactly is the so called woke agenda influencing bad game development.

Thats the whole point of the this discussion is it not?

I personally don't think wokeness is the reason. I think it's due to development by boardroom. However, to sum up the discussion around wokeness, some people on here believe that people are being employed not on their ability. One issue that we are seeing is that games recently have been a technical mess from poor performance to game breaking glitches. Now if it is true that programmers weren't being employed on ability then you would get this. That's it. It not more complicated than that.

 

[SmokedMeat]

It could very well be less crunch, while still promising investors that these games will be releasing in time frames that would require it.

 

[PeteBull]

Well you can atleast explain to me how the "woke agenda" is causing games to be bad now.(again ignoring the PS360 generation.)
From what I can tell, its not the art departments that are killing game development, and on the techart and programming side, if you dont pull your weight no amount of quota filling will save you, best case scenario is you are place in non-critical roles concepting games/projects that never see the light of day.
So how exactly is the so called woke agenda influencing bad game development.

Thats the whole point of the this discussion is it not?

Didnt u see what microsoft's priorities became in that pronouns video? isnt it enough proof ?
Here some more proof https://www.eurogamer.net/harvey-sm...-undead-were-born-from-real-life-bloodsuckers that was priority there at redfall team, not giving ppl topquality game , hell u can even see it in redfalls cover https://media.gamestop.com/i/gamestop/20003221-050e3a4b?$pdp$ ;D

The thing is- real world isnt same as woke bubble, no matter how many times woke ppl try to pretend it is.

U got many other examples in the industry, including aloy's ingame face character vs actress it was based on and game dev admitting they changed her face coz it looked too womenly/fragile , or how diablo2ressurected character faces look now vs how it looked in the original( basically maskulined womens faces to the point amazon is so masculine ai thinks its male face. https://www.axios.com/2021/09/17/diablo-developers-speak-game-company-issues

Hell u even got square admitted they had to change tifa's design/big breasts https://www.gamesindustry.biz/squar...to-breast-size-on-final-fantasy-vii-character and lemme remind u gorgeus ff7 advent children tifa design from before, u cant blame low polycount in there or bad quality assets like from og ff7 which was standard excuse

Stuff like that should never be priority in game dev, and thats just tip of the iceberg of woke agenda, it basically is so big there its spilling over so even ur avg gamer noticed it, cant imagine how nasty it must be when u are looking at it from the inside .

 

[A Most Virtuous Cat]

Lack of ambition, chasing easy money
Hiring on basis of hair color and sexual
Hiring to meet diversity quotas
Firing traditional minded engineers/ employees

 

[Moriarty1889]

So many things have changed. Budgets, expanding costs, outsourcing, covid changed a lot of things as well. Also, years ago games were a passion project. Today like everything else they are trying to diversify everything and check a box. The emphasis on the social aspects and agendas are killing all creativity due to them worrying about the wrong things. One more point if I may, this whole live service online only rubbish needs to die a quick death. It has zero sustainability and zero value and those games die off once player counts drop and servers are pulled.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

The PS2 game lineup in 2000-2001 exceeds an entire generation these days. It is not in our head.

That's really 2001. The Ps2 launched with basically nothing. It was awesome to have the system, a lot of hype around it.. but you could basically play Orphan.

 

[ReBurn]

Woke fricken agenda, no crunch, when those dev studios hire according to diversity quota instead of actual talent u go tons of really bad products being made, on top again- woke agenda from ppl deciding about priorities of the game, its not quality anymore but more often than not sticking it to those evil white men ;X

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

Wokeness in the business, upper management can't even crack the whip without getting into trouble with the RH department. It's eroding our society like a disease. Thankfully, that presents an opportunity for others to take place, the industry is renewed.

 

[Moriarty1889]

Didnt u see what microsoft's priorities became in that pronouns video? isnt it enough proof ?
Here some more proof https://www.eurogamer.net/harvey-sm...-undead-were-born-from-real-life-bloodsuckers that was priority there at redfall team, not giving ppl topquality game , hell u can even see it in redfalls cover https://media.gamestop.com/i/gamestop/20003221-050e3a4b?$pdp$ ;D

The thing is- real world isnt same as woke bubble, no matter how many times woke ppl try to pretend it is.

U got many other examples in the industry, including aloy's ingame face character vs actress it was based on and game dev admitting they changed her face coz it looked too womenly/fragile , or how diablo2ressurected character faces look now vs how it looked in the original( basically maskulined womens faces to the point amazon is so masculine ai thinks its male face. https://www.axios.com/2021/09/17/diablo-developers-speak-game-company-issues

Hell u even got square admitted they had to change tifa's design/big breasts https://www.gamesindustry.biz/squar...to-breast-size-on-final-fantasy-vii-character and lemme remind u gorgeus ff7 advent children tifa design from before, u cant blame low polycount in there or bad quality assets like from og ff7 which was standard excuse

Stuff like that should never be priority in game dev, and thats just tip of the iceberg of woke agenda, it basically is so big there its spilling over so even ur avg gamer noticed it, cant imagine how nasty it must be when u are looking at it from the inside .

Spot on assessment and so true.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Woke fricken agenda, no crunch, when those dev studios hire according to diversity quota instead of actual talent u go tons of really bad products being made, on top again- woke agenda from ppl deciding about priorities of the game, its not quality anymore but more often than not sticking it to those evil white men ;X

Most jobs have some sort of crunch when deadlines approach. Many are salary and the OT is expected (by the company AND the employee) or they are hourly get OT pay. Every job I've worked at, it happens. Infrequently but occasionally. A game has deadline and crunch should be expected. Not sure why a developer would get in the business if they thought it wouldn't happen. 80 hours weeks on end? Hell no. But maybe 50 hours a week the last couple months? Sure.