When did Disney's Decline begin?

Heimdall_Xtreme

Heimdall_Xtreme

Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
Before, I considered Disney a company that with its animated films and series were of great quality. I still enjoy Disney movies from the 40's to the 90's and some recent ones.

But Disney today is no longer what it was before.


Even his series do not convince me at all, the monumental failure of Lightyear and his Pixar movies have left much to be desired. I think the great decline of Disney at Pixar started with this movie.

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Since the inclusion nonsense began, the purchase of Marvel and Fox has ruined the company quite a bit.
 
The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea (2000)

More like return to the customer service department.
 
Since Disney started allowing more minorities make more creative decisions, that's when Disney started going down hill for you?
So I assume every movie studio has gone down hill then?
Because across the board they have been more welcoming to minorities.
 
ManaByte said:
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Exactly when this man took over is when I quit working for the company. Bob Iger was the smartest CEO since Walt himself he handed this asshole a foolproof set of franchises after acquiring them and this little bald martinet blew all of that goodwill. Disney succeeds in spite of Bob Chapek's incompetence.
 
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You can point to the decline of most of the industry (not just Disney) on these two things:

1. Steaming in many ways killed a lot of incentive for studios to take risks. DVD sales used to make a huge bulk of a film's income. On top of that, the younger generations prefer to watch everything on their phones. YouTubers and Streamers are the new celebrities. Because of all this, films have suffered in terms of selling tickets and DVDs. Yes we still have blockbusters that make a lot of money in theaters, but the vast majority of them are part of franchises like the MCU. Films that are safe, and where studios feel comfortable throwing $300 million dollars at. Films like Top Gun: Marverick are an anomaly because every once in a while you get a talented filmmaker or actor who has a passion project they wanna do, and happens to have the right pull to make it happen.

2. The rampant problem with nepotism and far left politics being deeply embedded in Hollywood culture. Hollywood looks after their own, so long as you play the game. People who try to make it in the business and don't conform to that ideology, get far less support and opportunity. To be clear, I'm not saying left winged ideology is a bad thing. The problem is the wrong kind of people are being hired for the wrong reasons. Instead of looking for the best talent out there, they're looking to diversify their brand as much as possible, hiring people who share the same political views, and want to use film/television as a platform to push their agenda. That is why most big tentpole films, especially from Disney, seem to have representation of every corner out there. It's why every Disney female character is a flawless and good at everything, because they have bad writers who have a fundamental misunderstanding on what makes a character relatable and powerful. This kind of culture that has sunk it's flaws into the industry is detrimental to creativity.

Both of these reasons are why big studios like Disney are a creative voids these days. Because studios no longer want to take risks, they aim to appease the masses, and toxic workplace culture.
 
Madflavor said:
You can point to the decline of most of the industry (not just Disney) on these two things:

1. Steaming in many ways killed a lot of incentive for studios to take risks. DVD sales used to make a huge bulk of a film's income. On top of that, the younger generations prefer to watch everything on their phones. YouTubers and Streamers are the new celebrities. Because of all this, films have suffered in terms of selling tickets and DVDs. Yes we still have blockbusters that make a lot of money in theaters, but the vast majority of them are part of franchises like the MCU. Films that are safe, and where studios feel comfortable throwing $300 million dollars at. Films like Top Gun: Marverick are an anomaly because every once in a while you get a talented filmmaker or actor who has a passion project they wanna do, and happens to have the right pull to make it happen.

2. The rampant problem with nepotism and far left politics being deeply embedded in Hollywood culture. Hollywood looks after their own, so long as you play the game. People who try to make it in the business and don't conform to that ideology, get far less support and opportunity. To be clear, I'm not saying left winged ideology is a bad thing. The problem is the wrong kind of people are being hired for the wrong reasons. Instead of looking for the best talent out there, they're looking to diversify their brand as much as possible, hiring people who share the same political views, and want to use film/television as a platform to push their agenda. That is why most big tentpole films, especially from Disney, seem to have representation of every corner out there. It's why every Disney female character is a flawless and good at everything, because they have bad writers who have a fundamental misunderstanding on what makes a character relatable and powerful. This kind of culture that has sunk it's flaws into the industry is detrimental to creativity.

Both of these reasons are why big studios like Disney are a creative voids these days. Because studios no longer want to take risks, they aim to appease the masses, and toxic workplace culture.
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Name specific woke scenes that ruined any of these films for you...I'll wait while you research what to say from Ben Shapiro.
 
MrMephistoX said:
Exactly when this man took over is when I quit working for the company. Bob Iger was the smartest CEO since Walt himself he handed this asshole a foolproof set of franchises after acquiring them and this little bald martinet blew all of that goodwill. Disney succeeds in spite of Bob Chapek's incompetence.
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I haven't heard the best things about Chapek, but at the same time I can't help but feel that he needs to be given at least another 3 years. It's a weird fluke that Igor left just before the pandemic kicked into gear and Chapek took charge. The pandemic isn't something that could be controlled and I doubt Disney would be in a much better position even if Igor was still in control.
 
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sol_bad said:
I haven't heard the best things about Chapek, but at the same time I can't help but feel that he needs to be given at least another 3 years. It's a weird fluke that Igor left just before the pandemic kicked into gear and Chapek took charge. The pandemic isn't something that could be controlled and I doubt Disney would be in a much better position even if Igor was still in control.
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He took away free snacks and coffee at the GC3 Glendale Campus to save a few $ his first week on the job: this was the house that birthed Disney Infinity and he forever earned my enmity. Those free KIND Bars and Hint Water were the only thing keeping me going god damnit!
 
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MrMephistoX said:
He took away free snacks and coffee at the GC3 Glendale Campus to save a few $ his first week on the job: this was the house that birthed Disney Infinity and he forever earned my enmity. Those free KIND Bars and Hint Water were the only thing keeping me going god damnit!
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LOL
That's a weird thing to get rid of.
 
sol_bad said:
LOL
That's a weird thing to get rid of.
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I think it was because it was literally the only campus with actual brewed coffee machines from Starbucks not those shitty plastic baggy I'm too cheap for a Keurig situations like the other offices and they had breakfast cereal bins like a college cafeteria plus a variety of free bottled drinks and La Croix water but still thats part of what made that office cool it was like they tried building a space like Facebook or Google and then the suits came in and made the kids grow up and move to Orlando. I'm spoiled now because literally every company in the SF Bay Area has at least that if not outright free commissary food but for an old school film Studio in LA the Disney Interactive Campus was unique...and Johnny V once sat on my floor.
 
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Heimdall_Xtreme said:
Even his series do not convince me at all, the monumental failure of Lightyear and his Pixar movies have left much to be desired. I think the great decline of Disney at Pixar started with this movie.

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Hmmmm, I wonder if you really do think Disney started declining because of Onward, or if perhaps...

Heimdall_Xtreme said:
Since the inclusion nonsense began, the purchase of Marvel and Fox has ruined the company quite a bit.
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Ah, there we go.

Funny how a film can star two cartoon mice flying on the back of an albatross, 101 dalmatians or a fox and a hound, but as soon as you put a gay character, a Chinese character or a Latino character as the lead that's suddenly too far and proof of some sort of a "decline".

Encanto, Moana, Raya and the Last Dragon were all widely critically acclaimed, and the reaction to Lightyear was more tepid because it didn't appear to be as funny as the series it was spun off from, not because of any "inclusion nonsense."

Feels like you're trying to force out a narrative that suits your own discriminatory beliefs, by suggesting that a company that made a net income of $3 billion in the last nine months, has 221 million subscribers across its global streaming services and in the last year released an animated movie with a 91% score on Rotten Tomatoes, is somehow in "decline" because it has the gall to try to make movies that cater to all its audience, not just straight white Americans.
 
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There are too many ideological nutjobs in positions of power, that leaked zoom was a peek behind the curtain. As more focus is given to nonsense their output has decayed.
 
Little Mermaid
Beauty and the Beast
Aladdin
These three were amazing.

The Lion King.
This was a step downward.

The Hunchback of Notre Dame
And this was the decline. Then Pixar came in to save the day, right up until Cars 2 and Brave. Now they're also hit and miss.
 
Nostalgically

After The Black Hole.


Yet, after seeing WandaVision & Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness, they're getting back to the good stuff and maybe building on an Echo like a phoenix. It's a Devil of a thing.
Mandalorian is good. Long awaited Andor, announced so long ago that a Kenobi show was developed and released within that time, should show significant substance.
 
2003-2005. Brother Bear, Home on the Range, and Chicken Little. The first was mediocre, and the latter two were total dog shit. Their next few 3D animated films in the mid 2000's were kinda just okay as well.

But with Princess and the Frog and beyond, they've stayed in my good graces. Sure, Wreck it Ralph 2 and Frozen 2 were below average, but I loved Raya. Encanto was just okay to me, but I know most loved it.

And Pixar has always kicked ass. They might have an occasional serious fumble like Cars 2 and Good Dinosaur, but most of their films are at least good.

And yeah, plenty of the live action remakes either suck or are just forgettable, but I did really enjoy the Jungle Book remake and Cruella.

Most people calling a lot of their films bad just sound ridiculous to me. We live in a world where Emoji Movie and Norm of the North exist (unfortunately), those are the sort of films I consider truly bad. And also where Illumination exists and refuses to show any genuine creativity. 95% of any film within Disney and Pixar's lineup show more imagination than the entire Illumination Animation film library put together.
 
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They started to fall apart in the late 90's when they didn't invest in replacing CAPS before it became heavily obsolete.

CGI didn't have to be the future and for them it wasn't. They basically pulled a Kodak/Xerox and were never the same since.


Their current situation is worse, it's lacking in leadership, principles and consistency. It's like they're being led by a rat king now.

Pixar fails to evolve past their "idea we had while getting coffee" principle. Things are basic, they flesh out the scenes and the things the characters say, but the concept idea, and how it ends is something that is still basically an idea being struck back and forth throughout the film, it's like they didn't plan out anything after that. This wasn't the case with Disney films who were more fleshed out, and something original Disney films since have started to mimic. It's not a feature, it's a fault. I'd say most Pixar movies are good, but they aren't classics.

Frozen and Princess and the Frog don't fall into this, but they still sound and feel like something "bottled". Frozen shouldn't have had a sequel so soon. Wreck it Ralph 1 didn't leave anything unfinished so a sequel would always be a tall order.

Live action remakes are frame by frame, it's like Mariah Carey releasing a all I want for Christmas is you videoclip every Christmas lip-syncing to old successes.

But that's far from Disney biggest problems right now, which are everything else they're doing.
 
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MrMephistoX said:
Name specific woke scenes that ruined any of these films for you...I'll wait while you research what to say from Ben Shapiro.
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You're being very sneaky in your wording by asking for a woke scene that ruined an entire film. I can't think of a woke scene that managed to sink an entire film. I don't think it exists. Can I think of woke scenes that momentarily took me out of the film and hindered my overall enjoyment? Yes plenty. The "She's not alone" scene in Avengers Endgame immediately came to mind. Not because it was a "Girl Power" moment. But because how they handled that Girl Power moment, especially when they did it seamlessly and in a way that fit the scene far better in Infinity War between Natasha and Okoye.

More to the point however, my original post wasn't talking about Woke Scenes. It was talking about an the entire ideology. I specifically mentioned it being a reason why strong female characters, particularly from Disney, are badly written these days. You can look at Mulan 2020, Rey, and Captain Marvel as some of the more egregious examples.
 
Madflavor said:
You're being very sneaky in your wording by asking for a woke scene that ruined an entire film. I can't think of a woke scene that managed to sink an entire film. I don't think it exists. Can I think of woke scenes that momentarily took me out of the film and hindered my overall enjoyment? Yes plenty. The "She's not alone" scene in Avengers Endgame immediately came to mind. Not because it was a "Girl Power" moment. But because how they handled that Girl Power moment, especially when they did it seamlessly and in a way that fit the scene far better in Infinity War between Natasha and Okoye.

More to the point however, my original post wasn't talking about Woke Scenes. It was talking about an the entire ideology. I specifically mentioned it being a reason why strong female characters, particularly from Disney, are badly written these days. You can look at Mulan 2020, Rey, and Captain Marvel as some of the more egregious examples.
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You did generalize all their female characters as "flawless" in your first post. I will say I disagree about Rey (and let's leave it there, I do not engage in Star Wars discussions anymore. That's not on you, rather other ST non-fans who couldn't help but be assholes about films they don't like), but there's plenty you're glossing over.

Moana, Judy (Zootopia), Raya, Mirabel (Encanto), and Izzy Hawthorne (Lightyear) all had flaws and/or made significant mistakes. I mean, it's weird when people criticize Disney's female characters, and then proceed to ignore the entire animated library since, you know, it's DISNEY. Also, Captain Marvel, exactly ONE character in the MCU. Hell, one of the most recent MCU films, Dr. Strange 2, had a female hero turned villain who was constantly being (rightfully) criticized by a lot of people in the film including men. Which would be the exact opposite of "flawless".
 
sol_bad said:
Since Disney started allowing more minorities make more creative decisions, that's when Disney started going down hill for you?
So I assume every movie studio has gone down hill then?
Because across the board they have been more welcoming to minorities.
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Yes, and release shit products.
 
Objectively I couldn't say.
Subjectively, when they went for that angular, stylized artstyle in the mid-90s after The Lion King (Hercules, Atlantis etc) is when I lost interest in Disney for a while. Don't think it's a coincidence that's also the period when Pixar's parable of glory started to rise.

Disney did get its groove back about a decade later, though. Now "Disney" is too many things, but the Disney core outside of the acquisitions has been doing quite well for a while.
 
LegendOfKage said:
Little Mermaid
Beauty and the Beast
Aladdin
These three were amazing.

The Lion King.
This was a step downward.

The Hunchback of Notre Dame
And this was the decline. Then Pixar came in to save the day, right up until Cars 2 and Brave. Now they're also hit and miss.
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But The Lion King is one of their best movies :messenger_sad_relieved:
 
Yeah, anyone who thinks Disney is shit now should go and watch Home on the Range, Meet the Robinson's The Wild and Chicken Little.

I will always have Nostalgia for the big 4, Aladdin, Lion King, Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast but I feel some of the newer movies have far better messages and teachings.

Tangled, Wrecker It Ralph, Frozen, Big Hero Six, Zootopia, Moana, Raya and Encanto are far better than anything released between 2000 and 2010. Those were truly the Dark years for Disney animation.

As for live action, Disney have never really been good at live action. I can only name a few from my childhood and teenage years that really stand out.
Flight of the Navigator
Honey, I Shrunk the Kids
The Rocketeer
The Mighty Ducks
George of the Jungle
The majority of their other live action movies are remakes of older movies. Many of their modern live action films are far more memorable to me, like Tron Legacy which is fricken phenomenal. John Carter, Saving Mister Banks, Maleficent, Mary Poppins Returns, Aladdin, Togo, Cruelly and Jungle Cruise.

That's just my thoughts though.
 
Probably 1995 with Pocahontas. They still released good stuff after that but that was when the decline began and they never fully recovered. Nowadays Disney either ignores the things I like or actively butchers them. They've branched out too much with all their Marvel and Star Wars stuff and lack focus. Seems to make them money though.
 
sol_bad said:
Tangled, Wrecker It Ralph, Frozen, Big Hero Six, Zootopia, Moana, Raya and Encanto are far better than anything released between 2000 and 2010. Those were truly the Dark years for Disney animation.
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They did have a few worthwhile films in that stretch IMHO. Emperor's New Groove and Lilo and Stitch are both great.

Treasure Planet is great, though it would be downright incredible if that extremely annoying robot in the third act were removed (seriously, my 2nd most hated Disney character, the 1st being Chicken Little's dad due to being a shit father, like far shittier than the movie acts like he is, I would love to see a child psychologist analyze every scene he's in to showcase how 100% awful he was, from his enabling of the town's bullying of his son, his phrasing of words that would destroy his son's confidence, etc. Obviously actual villains are meant to be "hated" so they don't count).

And Atlantis was pretty good even if I felt it was trying to do a little too much (a longer runtime would have helped).

And like I said, I think Princess and the Frog is really good. I do find Naveen kinda annoying, but Tiana is one of my favorite princesses and the villain is great too.
 
Honestly the last one I cared about was Aladdin, the animated one as a little kid. I'm surprised you guys actually watch most of these. Never got into any Pixar movies at all aside from Toy Story 1. Marvel was the only thing that gave them another shot and they're blowing it on that as well. Blowing it on Star Wars. They've never really been that great.

I'm sure kids will still watch it.
 
For me it was the live action remakes of their classic animated films, they all seem robotic and have lost their charm and visual charisma. Plus being too reliant on Disney+ and closing their traditional channels down, I don't fancy having to pay for another streaming service.

Oh and sacking Gina Carano and meddling on the Florida anti-groomer bill.
 
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MrMephistoX said:
Exactly when this man took over is when I quit working for the company. Bob Iger was the smartest CEO since Walt himself he handed this asshole a foolproof set of franchises after acquiring them and this little bald martinet blew all of that goodwill. Disney succeeds in spite of Bob Chapek's incompetence.
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I'm sorry but in my opinion, Disney fell to shit because of Iger if anything, Chapek is just the continuation of it.

Iger is the one who effectively led to Pixar being butchered, Disney gobbling up IPs like Marvel and Star Wars and sanitizing the shit out of them (for the worse), and transforming the Disney parks from unique experiences with a lot of original ideas to an IP fest with literally no new original rides (Avatar, Frozen, etc). Say what you will about Eisner, but at least Michael Eisner wanted some ambitious, unique ideas for Disney, like having an adult-oriented division (expanding upon Touchstone Pictures) and he believed in original ideas over just peddling IPs constantly (or at least segregating them into a specific park, Hollywood/MGM Studios, and keeping them away from the rest of the parks).

Pixar hasn't made a single good movie since like Ratatouille, and that movie was written pre-buyout from DIsney. Ever since then Pixar's output has been ok at best. They basically just make kiddie movies now instead of actual family movies.
 
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when they started buying other IPs and ruined them. The theme parks are worse than before. It's a good thing Tokyo Disney (which isn't run by Disney btw) is around since they actually know how to run a theme park.

Their original films are worse than ever imo. I can't even stand to watch them. The last film I really liked was Tangled or the Winnie the Pooh movie.

Still super disappointed they ruined pirates of the caribbean in all the parks. It's sad no kids or adults can experience that ride in its original presentation anymore. Imagine such a classic ride getting ruined by "WHERE BE JACK SPARROW?" Every 5 seconds.

With the haunted mansion movie coming out, there's a chance that ride can be ruined too. I can't even believe some of the things that have been greenlighted.

The new splash mountain change is hilarious. All that work to get rid of it but Tokyo Disney still has the original ride in pristine condition. Plus they may get a superior exclusive retheme of the ride. Regardless of what you think of the change, just keep in mind the if Tokyo Disney doesn't think it's the best option they won't do it. They aren't willing to spend millions for the Tiana attraction, that goes to tell you something.
 
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DeadMansParty said:
when they started buying other IPs and ruined them. The theme parks are worse than before. It's a good thing Tokyo Disney (which isn't run by Disney btw) is around since they actually know how to run a theme park.

Their original films are worse than ever imo. I can't even stand to watch them. The last film I really liked was Tangled or the Winnie the Pooh movie.

Still super disappointed they ruined pirates of the caribbean in all the parks. It's sad no kids or adults can experience that ride in its original presentation anymore. Imagine such a classic ride getting ruined by "WHERE BE JACK SPARROW?" Every 5 seconds.

With the haunted mansion movie coming out, there's a chance that ride can be ruined too. I can't even believe some of the things that have been greenlighted.

The new splash mountain change is hilarious. All that work to get rid of it but Tokyo Disney still has the original ride in pristine condition. Plus they may get a superior exclusive retheme of the ride. Regardless of what you think of the change, just keep in mind the if Tokyo Disney doesn't think it's the best option they won't do it. They aren't willing to spend millions for the Tiana attraction, that goes to tell you something.
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I'd love to get to Tokyo one day to experience their parks, Disney Sea looks unbelievable. Splash Mountain is so damn good as is, I'm just glad my kids got to experience it in it's original form last summer. It was one of their favorite rides, we went on it multiple times. The whole thing is just so well executed with the Song of the South theming. Just got to laugh that Zip a dee doo da is being canceled.
 
Every casual disses Chapek.

But in reality it began with Iger. Iger fired everybody he didn't want taking over, announced false retirements like 4 times (look it up), and basically hand picked Chapek.

So the answer is with Iger.

Wells death in 1994 didn't help. He had Disney cruising. They had a good amount of lapse after that.
 
Disney is fine. Quality hasn't changed. You're just getting older. A company with content steered towards kids is not going to feel the same when you get older. Disney's stuff now doesn't feel any different than what we had in the 80's/90's, especially when you consider their Disney Channel and straight to video releases.
 
When they overpaid for the FOX assets and overleveraged themselves to the point where they have to nickel and dime people now. They then took out ~20B in new debt after that due to COVID. They're still close to 40B in LTD and over 5B+ in STD IIRC. Yes the X-Men and FF rights were good. FX and Searchlight pictures were great, but they put themselves in a financially awkward position. Iger dipping out before COVID because he didn't want to "tarnish" his legacy didn't help matters since he oversaw the M&A and it was actually supposed to be the icing on the cake for his career. People solely blaming Chapek are missing the big picture where it shows the problems precede him. That said Chapek didn't do himself any favors by backing up Disney trying to fight FL, especially after he specifically mentioned DIsney would remain neutral politically.

Creatively Disney's division work in silo, so we are seeing creative bankruptcy at different cycles. I would argue that WDA is still at the height now and they are doing diversity the right way. Raya was great and Encanto was fantastic. Pixar is where WDA was back in the 2000s. Lightyear sucked and I couldn't even finish it. Them pressuring Disney execs for the gay kiss to be in the movie ended up being the topic of conversation for the movie instead of the movie itself. Never a good thing. 20th Century is a shell of its former self and still trying to find its footing under Disney. Same with Searchlight. Lucas has been . Marvel used to be immune to all of this, but now we're about to have a race bend black Norman and Harry Osborn. A black Professor X and Magneto if rumors are to be believed. A gender bending Taskmaster. I guess it's too hard to bring other characters that would actually fit the story much better and not require changes like Headmistress in Black Widow to prominence. Gateway and Manifold (and many other mutants) instead of race bending. Black people should not to be used to be tokenized versions of white characters and white people should be proud of white fictional characters and not accept race bending. I have seen so many white people okay with a black Reed Richards or Wolverine or literally any character that it's flabbergasting to me. Try to make a white Blade and see how people react.

The good news is these things are cyclical.

TLDR, around 2019 IMO. A bit before COVID.
 
lostinblue said:
They started to fall apart in the late 90's when they didn't invest in replacing CAPS before it became heavily obsolete.
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I didn't specify what CAPS was:

-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Animation_Production_System

It was really ahead of the curve when it appeared and it's what made every film Disney made in the 90's possible it was a hybrid between digital and analog, made for processing drawings and overlaying them digitally. It was Full HD - 2048x1229 to be precise making 1920x1080p conversions with no upscale or remastering possible when blurays appeared, it was always HD, basically. Image quality is still state of the art to this day and it allowed for nearly unlimited composition layers, it also was the first system in the industry to have several features that professionals take for granted now in video production and data coherency.

From the mid 90's onwards it needed investment for it to be competitive against fully digital pipelines, but Disney didn't invest yet used it until 2006, with less and less machines being fully operational and basically keeping it working by swapping parts at that point.

Then they shuttered their animation department, changed their mind, reopened it and swapped said pipeline for Toon Boom, which is the equivalent of Pixar neglecting their own Renderman software suite then starting to use 3D Studio Max instead.
 
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I would say they're doing okay as of at least 2019.

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