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[Men_in_Boxes]

Helldivers 2 is the only game I've played where it was obvious it couldn't be done on last gen systems.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I do agree with that to some extent. But Half-Life 2 did a lot of new things with physics and turn the FPS genre on its head.

On its core its still a linear FPS not much different from Half Life 1. Even back then i remember people calling the physics stuff just a "gimmick", which i don't necessarely agree with but we can find modern equivalencies people dismiss with similar words as well.

People were also completely fine with black and white movies until colored stuff started to come out. We're going to have moments like that with gaming over the next 10 years.

We already had that moment. It was the 2D -> 3D transition.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Gameplay hasn't changed since controllers got two analog sticks.

The Wii tried something new. Then Kinect. Then VR.

 

[Skyfox]

Crossprogression is a thing.

Barely.

 

[Terenty]

MGS 5 still feels like a next gen game compared to most everything coming out today

 

[SmokedMeat]

The latest preview from yesterday mentions that dd2 has over 1000 npcs living their lives and roaming around the world, interacting with the player and each other. Those calculations aren’t free. Their pathing, behaviors, etc, that’s all cpu bound. Let’s not pretend TOTK is doing anything even close to that.

That sounds like marketing for a completely pointless feature.

 

[SnapShot]

I ate it

 

[Salty Popsicle]

We had a bunch of diehards last year trying to convince us (probably themselves more than anything) that this was the device that would lead the charge in next-gen immersive gameplay. It failed.

 

[March Climber]

If you want next gen gameplay, here it is :

Videos like this will continue to go unnoticed by many here until they see a large publisher do it.

 

[MrRibeye]

Here is why:

Your game studio pitched an idea to Microsoft, Tencent, Venture Capital, ... and received 2-5 Million USD to get going.

No-one put any thought into the gameplay beyond vague buzz words used in the pitch, but now you have your first milestone in the calendar. 6 months from now you have to show a prototype.

There is no time to design next-gen gameplay for 6 months before you start development, because all those engineers and artists need something to do. You can't pay them to be idle.

So you start putting together a shitty prototype that eventually becomes the final product.

I've seen this so many times. Fuck me.​

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Here is why:

Your game studio pitched an idea to Microsoft, Tencent, Venture Capital, ... and received 2-5 Million USD to get going.

No-one put any thought into the gameplay beyond vague buzz words used in the pitch, but now you have your first milestone in the calendar. 6 months from now you have to show a prototype.

There is no time to design next-gen gameplay for 6 months before you start development, because all those engineers and artists need something to do. You can't pay them to be idle.

So you start putting together a shitty prototype that eventually becomes the final product.

I've seen this so many times. Fuck me.​

Nothing embodies this more than...

 

[kiphalfton]

People seem more concerned about graphics and 60fps over gameplay innovation. Sad really.

Immersive sims are where games should go, but very few games do go.

But what can you expect when publishers don't care about interactivity or how you approach a situation. I think that's why so many games are open world, is because it gives the illusion of freedom, but the world is generally lifeless, there's no real interactivity, and for all intents an purposes you're expected to approach missions in a very specific way (or fail).

 

[Inuteu]

few games take real advantage of the ssd except for faster loading screens

 

[Audiophile]

It's not next gen until I can pick out any room in any hotel tower in GTA, go in, bash the door down, find some dude squeezing one out on the bog and point a gun at him til he gives me his safe combo. Throw some C4 in and shut the door, steal everything he owns, blow the window out by picking up and throwing a TV at it, activate the C4 blowing the guy and his toilet up; the door comes flying off too... then I jump out the window, use a chute to land on a boat in the river, I commandeer that and then proceed to the pawn shop to sell my wares.

And behind every door lays a possibility like this not through specific scripting but layered, highly variable generated spaces, NPC systems and loot; all fine-grained and highly contextual.

Next gen to me is peeling back the curtain and not seeing the inner workings in an open world title. If I go up to most doors in an ultra-realistic "AAAA" game and can't walk through then there's a mismatch and it's an instant killer of suspension of disbelief.

And it not just a door to go through but a multitude of ways to go through it. Most will be closed or locked, some already open or occasionally you catch one with someone going through it. If it's locked you can pick it, blow it open, bash it a few times. If someone's in you can knock and maybe they let you in. You could acquire a fake cop's badge and trick them. And behind those doors it'll sometimes be empty, other times it'll be a couple watching TV, cooking, going about different daily business.

 

[phant0m]

Next-gen gameplay is VR. I know most of GAF is still super cynical about it but gameplay on Quest 3 is sublime and feels way more "next gen" than anything on PS5/XSX.

The most "next-gen" thing gameplay-wise in flat/2D gaming is honestly Star Citizen. They make you act out all the interactions with the world, eg "Hold A to enter ship, press R to go" becomes:

• Go to starport, request ship to dock
• Take elevator and walk to said dock
• Open ship door
• close ship door ( don't forget to lock it)
• Walk to pilot seat and sit
• Turn on engines
• Request departure from ATC
• Takeoff

This type of mechanical complexity is extrapolated to most other systems in the game.

 

[jonnyp]

Probably hidden in the HL3.exe file somewhere at Valve.

 

[phant0m]

The latest preview from yesterday mentions that dd2 has over 1000 npcs living their lives and roaming around the world, interacting with the player and each other. Those calculations aren’t free. Their pathing, behaviors, etc, that’s all cpu bound. Let’s not pretend TOTK is doing anything even close to that.

TES IV: Oblivion did this in 2006. Not taking anything from DD2, and the quantity might be greater, but the concept and execution is not new.

 

[Raven77]

On its core its still a linear FPS not much different from Half Life 1. Even back then i remember people calling the physics stuff just a "gimmick", which i don't necessarely agree with but we can find modern equivalencies people dismiss with similar words as well.


We already had that moment. It was the 2D -> 3D transition.

Agree that 2d to 3d was that moment, but we'll have more.

 

[Crayon]

Last gen vr was more next gen gameplay than next gen flat will be.

 

[ProtoByte]

This video prompted me to read back my threads about this topic. Both were closed because too many people got butt hurt, and this thread has fewer posts than most graphics discussions. Which typifies the videos point. Gamers themselves, even enthusiasts, don't really care about or understand what gameplay enhancement means or entails. If they like it, it's the most innovative thing around. If they don't, it's boring and overdone.

What the video doesn't make explicit is that the game industry is mature now, and there's practically nothing left that's completely new in the sense of mechanics, perspectives or that you can reasonably conceive and effectively implement in game design that would be up to functional standards today.

So next-gen gameplay can't really mean new. As I said in those threads, a lot of things that people want - immersion, physics, environmental/NPC interactivity are not new things, but the combination of those things at a certain production values backed by new tech and polish is what will break the barrier.

 

[Jesb]

The innovative feature this gen is increasing budgets to 300M+.

 

[ProtoByte]

It's not next gen until I can pick out any room in any hotel tower in GTA, go in, bash the door down, find some dude squeezing one out on the bog and point a gun at him til he gives me his safe combo. Throw some C4 in and shut the door, steal everything he owns, blow the window out by picking up and throwing a TV at it, activate the C4 blowing the guy and his toilet up; the door comes flying off too... then I jump out the window, use a chute to land on a boat in the river, I commandeer that and then proceed to the pawn shop to sell my wares.

And behind every door lays a possibility like this not through specific scripting but layered, highly variable generated spaces, NPC systems and loot; all fine-grained and highly contextual.

Next gen to me is peeling back the curtain and not seeing the inner workings in an open world title. If I go up to most doors in an ultra-realistic "AAAA" game and can't walk through then there's a mismatch and it's an instant killer of suspension of disbelief.

And it not just a door to go through but a multitude of ways to go through it. Most will be closed or locked, some already open or occasionally you catch one with someone going through it. If it's locked you can pick it, blow it open, bash it a few times. If someone's in you can knock and maybe they let you in. You could acquire a fake cop's badge and trick them. And behind those doors it'll sometimes be empty, other times it'll be a couple watching TV, cooking, going about different daily business.

I agree that this is the ideal, but an ideal nonetheless.

Once you get into the house pretending to be a cop, there then needs to be NPC dialogue (that would have to be quite varied in voice and words chosen) and animations that match that. Do different NPCs react to your being a pretend-cop differently? Do some of them let you in ASAP and panic? Do some of them react calmly? Maybe they tell you to get lost and get a warrant, or are actually criminals of some kind that try to run or fight? Do those personality profiles or situations vary in likelihood based on where you are on the map?

Then you have to ask what the player can do beyond that point. Do you give the player dialogue options? How varied do they have to be so that they sound like they fit in each conversation? After all, it's not scripted. And that's as a cop. What if you just go in as you are? What if you pretend to do door-door sales, or to be real estate agent?

Even with AI when it eventually gets built into the dev process, you can only create so much content that comes together in a way that feels authentic and maintains suspension of disbelief.

We will see exactly how interactive something like GTA6 is, but I can bet that it won't come close to even half of what we're talking about here.

 

[Mobilemofo]

I've said it a multitude of times here. Gameplay will evolve with much smarter ai.

 

[TehGoomba7s]

Isn't Dragons Dogma II packed full of next gen gameplay? That's the reason people are citing for it being so demanding.

 

[Ribi]

VR and skull and bones

 

[ProtoByte]

Isn't Dragons Dogma II packed full of next gen gameplay? That's the reason people are citing for it being so demanding.

Everything I've seen from it indicates nothing towards that.

The animation systems seem the same as DG1, the physics and destruction has either been all talk, speculation, or demonstrated in limited/scripted capacity similar to games from last gen and the gen before. AI looks a smidge better, but nothing crazy, because there aren't any mechanics thrown in to accommodate better simulation.

Looks like a fun enough game, but nothing next gen looking about it from a technical or design standpoint as of yet. But it'll surely claim some of those accolades from people looking to get one over on "cinematic" games or Ubisoft-esque open world titles out of spite.

 

[Hrk69]

Helldivers 2 is the only game I've played where it was obvious it couldn't be done on last gen systems.

What makes you say that?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What makes you say that?

I think it's too CPU intensive for the PS4. All the enemy AI and physics wouldn't be feasible on the old Jaguar.

 

[yurinka]

True! After the countless 'but what about next gen GrApHiCs' threads, this video appeared in my feed that articulately presents some issues and rationale behind the discrepancy in modern AAA games with solid arguments, highlighting how modern games are impressive visually, but the underlying game-logic still resembling that of the PS360 era. Hopefully, there will be a significant leap in underlying game logic and structural experimentation following the numerous recent flops in the AAA(A) category. However, it's doubtful, as rather than addressing the core problem, some publishers might opt to exit the AAA space altogether.

Summary:

• Gameplay in AAA has been stagnant and homogenized for the last 10 year.
• Next gen gameplay meaning, the underlying interactive experience that could not be done technically on older hardware. (Ai, physics, game-logic, simulation complexity, reactivity, seamlessness, etc)
• Incremental changes in the form of quality of life are great, but big structural leaps (like games always have done up until the 2010's) have stagnated.
• Reasons are risk-averse nature of the industry, inflating budgets unsustainability and inflexibility.
• Examples given are; Starfield looking next gen, but still playing like Oblivion from 2006. Rockstar still working with a restrictive formula, stifling player creativity, all for the sake of slick presentation.
• Ends on a optimistic note.

I recall the remarkable transitions from Doom to Half-Life, and then to Half-Life 2, each feeling radically different despite all being first-person shooters. Another great example is the progression from Metal Gear Solid 1 to 2 and finally to MGSV, with its incredible systemic underpinnings. The shift from baked lighting in the 90s to dynamic point lights with attached physics is notable. It's why I appreciate the early era of dynamic lighting as developers experimented, combining dynamic lights and physics to create more dynamic environments that players could manipulate, actually making it gameplay relevant, as seen in games like Splinter Cell, Thief 3, and Escape from Butcher Bay, etc.

The leap from Far Cry 1 (2004) to Crysis (2007) with its impressive physical interactivity, necessitating a new CPU just to run the game, stands out. Early open-world shooters like STALKER (2007) found their footing and evolved with Far Cry 3 (2012). The Souls-like subgenre was established with Demon's Souls (2009), and Immersive Sims became more approachable, from Deus Ex (2000) to Dishonored (2012), among others I might be missing. I'm mostly referring to more sophisticated game logic. Think of how much more fun if was crashing a car in GTA IV thanks to heavier and more realistic physics, compared to its earlier versions thanks to the technical leap. The last significant technical gameplay breakthrough I remember is the Mordor game from 2014, utilizing the increased RAM pool and CPU cycles to cleverly simulate recurring enemies, generating small stories through its impressive Nemesis System. A system that simply couldn't run on the PS360 version, so they took it out.

I'm still rocking my (at the time high-end) 2014 CPU paired with a more modern RTX card, and it's still not bottlenecking in modern games, resulting in a smooth 60fps. It's kind of crazy if you think about it; I wouldn't be able to do the same going back another 10 years and using a 2004 CPU in 2014. And seeing as game-logic runs on the CPU side of things. Moreover, it's intriguing to see that a Switch, of all hardware, does a better job in demonstrating a more sophisticated game-logic leap with BOTW/TOTK on a 2017 tablet and is more impressive than most titles on the big consoles. Yes, we've stagnated quite a bit. That's not to say I don't enjoy modern games, and I'm still hopeful for the future. I'm looking forward to stuff like GTA VI, to see what they'll bring to the table technically!

A great example of not understanding innovation in game design and ignoring the many cases available. I keep hearing the same every generation since the 8 bits computers. And it's always wrong.

 

[TVexperto]

here it is

 

[Kataploom]

Diminishing returns exist. Also games are great already, I don't think they need any kind of resolution to be better

 

[b0uncyfr0]

Probably another 5-10 years away? Basically someone needs to take a giant risk to prove that its doable, feasibly cost effective and received well by players.

We just need someone brave enough to break the barrier, It'll never happen otherwise.

I can only think of 3 games i've played, that have done things different the last few years - RDR2 for the acting, The mordor games with the nemesis system, Hi-Fi Rush for uniqueness.

 

[HL3.exe]

A great example of not understanding innovation in game design and ignoring the many cases available. I keep hearing the same every generation since the 8 bits computers. And it's always wrong.

There are cases, definitely, but recently they are a dime a dozen. But this subject targets the meet between technical leaps providing design opportunities. A lot of missed opportunities there, because of the risk-averse nature of the beast.

Example, the fast I/O is a great example in these current gen console that are best utilized by Insomniac recently. But it's still mainly used for visual spectacle gimmick instead of a core mechanics that is player-driven.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

Just watched the DF episode and they made a comment for Ronin game "A decent looking PS4 title". We are getting stuff like this 3.5 years later into the generation still. Even the top rated games, Spiderman 2, GOW 2, Horizon 2...its just 4K resolution touch up. I didnt feel like I was playing anything brand new. Sure you can argue some effect here and there wouldnt be done on last gen but I feel like I was playing the same game I played 4 years ago.

Which is why I find it laughable that PS5 Pro will exist when we barely get games to take advantage of the current hardware. Also its funny how whenever a topic like this comes up, usually the newest game out is mentioned as a graphical powerhouse...now being Helldivers 2. I dont know what is so next-gen about it. Its an OK looking game, has bushes and foilage that moves in the same direction with its 2d sprite leaves, a largerly randomly generated soil map with vast of nothingness. I mean you cant compare a game like that to lets say Cyberpunk which has 5000 things going on on the screen and then you and your 4 buddies in a barren world and some random alien monsters.

 

[the welsh one]

The most nextgen feeling game play I've experienced was from an indie game. Outers wilds. I was genuinely blown away at how different it played. Not amazing looking but amazing atmosphere and organic feeling gameplay without the adhd style hand holding we ve gotten used to lately.

 

[Hudo]

We had a bunch of diehards last year trying to convince us (probably themselves more than anything) that this was the device that would lead the charge in next-gen immersive gameplay. It failed.

Even Sony have forgotten about it.

 

[kyussman]

Given where things are with AI isn't there is a huge opportunity to make games that do cool things with it......it seems games have the same type of AI they have had since the PS3 era.I know they could make an AI system that is so good that it beats the player down easily and that would be no fun to actually play so there is no point in doing it.....but surely AI could be implemented into game design in other ways to enhance gaming.

 

[Senua]

TikTok style subtitles?

Started to watch and turned off instantly, I'm sorry but I just can't do it. His "Hey bros" voice was bad enough but damn

 

[StueyDuck]

If you want next gen gameplay, here it is :

the video is cringe, i agree with others.

but the subject is absolutely true, which is why I can't understand for one second why people, especially those of the pink haired persuasion are working to actively remove and shun any AI involvement in gaming.

Things that should be improving for next gen, physics, materials, ai, level/world interactivity.

Things that we are getting, social messages, more resolutions, the same game but with a new feature added like sticking two planks together, more social messages.

we just have to come to terms with the fact that the people making games now aren't the creatives or even have a single ounce of creativity to the ones we once knew and loved, it's no longer passion projects or an inventive idea, it's just how to fill the wallets of shareholders.

This is why Death Stranding 2 currently is the only interesting videogame in the near future that's worth keeping an eye on, Kojima is an old guard creative and he still has passion and control of his projects, whether you love or hate him you can't deny that it's that unique passion that makes an interesting product.

instead we get games where a boardroom of young uncreatives sit around and go "teehee, member that meme bout petting the dog teehee" and then all the dumb arse journos will put the "pet the dog" meme in their reviews.
^this is gaming in a nutshell in 2024

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

Gameplay hasnt evolved since PS2 era

 

[Bert Big Balls]

Good post. And I do agree. Nothing has really changed in years. What really annoys me is like you walk up to an obstacle with your character and have to hold down square or something to move it, and that just triggers a small cutscene of your character moving it by themself. What i'd like to see is some good use of maybe the analog sticks. For example, you hold down a button and have to actually maneuver the obstacle by moving the stick like you would move the obstacle in a real life scenario. (If that makes sense). I just think we've seen "Hold triangle to open" for far too long now, and the mechanics need to become more complex and more interesting. It's like the old Fight Night games, where depending on how you moved the analog stick, you would perform different punches. Drag it down then rotate it around for an uppercut, etc. I can't think of much I've seen recently that actually implements this, and it really worked well in the game.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

It’s not a hardware issue. It’s a AAA developers don’t bother issue.

This. Developers chase graphics since it’s much easier to bump polygons than come up with innovative gameplay ideas.

 

[Player Respawn]

Game companies wanted bigger audiences throughout the ps3 era so everybody innovated on all fronts until then. After that era settled, they wanted to keep that newer audience. So they began focus testing for simplicity over complexities in the systems everybody was accustomed to, the majority of the industry shifted to bigger much more simple games after. We can only hope that the biggest studios are able to innovate all the others, but those companies don’t really care about innovating like they did in the past. IMO, they only care about “innovating” in multiplayer rather than single player these days.

 

[Bond007]

Next gen gameplay? I mean wasnt hasnt been done or evolved at this point?
We get better iterations of things with every passing generation. These days progression is gradual rather than leaps. Improvements to what lies before.

I think what we need to look for is how we can improve the thingswe do have. I would also agree that VR is the next gen gameplay- atleast with what is out today. Its a COMPLETELY different experience still in its infancy. Doesnt mean it has to be our cup of tea today.

 

[Ogbert]

Helldivers 2 is the only game I've played where it was obvious it couldn't be done on last gen systems.

It’s *exactly* the same as last gen Helldivers, only in 3d.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It’s *exactly* the same as last gen Helldivers, only in 3d.

You think the CPU workload on both games is "exactly" the same?

 

[Danknugz]

imo part of the problem is the huge power gap between console and PC yet we all play the same games. seems it creates kind of thing for console gamers where they become obsessed with pixel counting and comparing against the rival console, places like digital foundry thrive on this, it's practically an entire industry in itself, one which is based solely on comparing weak consoles and graphic quality against each other, so people care less about gameplay and just winning their side.

 

[Shifty1897]

The Last of Us 2 is probably still the best example of next gen gameplay from a single player perspective.

Helldivers 2 is a good example of multiplayer next gen gameplay. Easy drop in / drop out at all times, cross play, fun gameplay loop, more stable (now at least), reasonable GAAS pricing.

 

[yurinka]

There are cases, definitely, but recently they are a dime a dozen. But this subject targets the meet between technical leaps providing design opportunities. A lot of missed opportunities there, because of the risk-averse nature of the beast.

Example, the fast I/O is a great example in these current gen console that are best utilized by Insomniac recently. But it's still mainly used for visual spectacle gimmick instead of a core mechanics that is player-driven.

They are not risk-averse, they have a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars that have to turn into profit so they mostly bet them in stuff they think people will like.

And since people likes the stuff they already know and normally reject new and different ideas, which in most cases tank hard, companies bet on it.

Regarding the I/O, it opens the door to big paradigm shifts in game development that change how game engines are built and the workflow and pipeline of AAA development. The biggest one since they moved from 2D to 3D. To adapt to the new paradigm shift, build the related engines and tools that take advantage requires years, and once done will require more years to build the game. They are working on it as seen in the UE5 tech demos.

But they need time to bring all this to published games, we'll start to see it in maybe a couple years. First, we'll see it highly improving the visuals. And later we'll see related game design innovations like those suggested by Cerny when announced the PS5 tech architecture.