Whisper it, but Xbox One is finding its stride [EUROGAMER]

TitanFall is going to do well, but it's not going to be some CoD phenomenon. It's hindered by only being on certain platforms, for one.

Secondly, the market is now so saturated with different shooters that people have plenty of options to choose from.

Not having a single player will also hurt it more than some think.

I'm sure it'll push some systems in the spring for xbox 1, but not expecting it to really push much...it's also on 360 and PC starting out.

I can see it getting more popular once it's moved on from last-gen and is day and date with PS4, XB1, and PC only, but I have a feeling Destiny is going to do a lot better.
 
TitanFall is going to do well, but it's not going to be some CoD phenomenon. It's hindered by only being on certain platforms, for one.

Secondly, the market is now so saturated with different shooters that people have plenty of options to choose from.

Not having a single player will also hurt it more than some think.

I'm sure it'll push some systems in the spring for xbox 1, but not expecting it to really push much...it's also on 360 and PC starting out.

I can see it getting more popular once it's moved on from last-gen and is day and date with PS4, XB1, and PC only, but I have a feeling Destiny is going to do a lot better.

This doesnt seem to actually affect COD.
 
I can't believe this is a serious post. I don't want to get into a quote war, but damn. So many assumptions and wishful thinking.

First post as well? Goddamn.


I’m going to break this down into each segment of text you bolded.

Sony posted their first profit in five years this last quarter, thanks mostly to a weakened yen and the Xpheria line which helped rebound their smartphone division. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/b...ounces-370-million-quarterly-profit.html?_r=0

The PS3 destroyed everything the PS2 had built for Sony right out of the gate. Why the massive losses? They spent a major amount on R&D and sold the console at a tremendous loss. Source: http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

Not to mention their failures over the last few years that devalued their stock and led to a massive restructuring. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/t...behind-in-the-tech-parade.html?pagewanted=all

A massive restructuring that cost 10,000 people their jobs. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/sony-layoffs_n_1420229.html

More job cuts followed in the following months. But the restructuring hasn’t done a whole lot besides drain money from their profitable insurance, film, and music divisions to bolster their failing divisions. Their propriety technology is so minuscule that they have few worthwhile patents they could liquidate. If you’d like to read Sony’s quarterly report, here you go. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/13q1_sony.pdf

They’ve continued to depreciate in value, and if Daniel Loebe has his way Sony won’t be operating as poorly as they have been in recent years. But they initially rejected Loebe’s proposal. At a 7% stake in the company, and likely amassing more each day, he’ll sway big shareholders into accepting his proposal eventually. The company is trying to rebound from the horrible state they've fallen into, but it’s going to take years of steady profits from wise investments to pull this company from the gutter.

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I’m not sure why you even bolded this point since it’s blatantly obvious if you take into account the scale of Microsoft. They generate $20 BILLION in excess cash each year and they’re sitting on over $50 billion of working capital. They have a tremendous amount of money to spend, and with Ballmer retiring this excess cash will likely be more accessible to take more risk on innovations rather than just acquiring pre-established companies. Source: http://thebusinessferret.com/microsoft-financial-analysis-destroying-value-with-too-much-cash/

We also have the Azure network to take into account, which is worth billions of dollars and embodies an infrastructure Sony does not have the cash to compete with. These servers are a tremendous asset to developers, and to act as though they won’t make a difference is arrogant. I don’t think I need a source as its quite obvious Microsoft has secured numerous high profile third party exclusives, as well as investing a lot of money in in-house studios. The acquisition of exclusive and timed-exclusive DLC is also an asset people seem to try to pass off as miniscule. But for the CoD or FIFA fans who only have one offering each year then many of them will be swayed by DLC incentives.

As for the NFL deal, that was announced alongside the unveiling of the Xbox One. Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/May13/05-21NFLPR.aspx
Now tell me, why wouldn't the “Official Game Console of the NFL” not be advertised during NFL games? The partnership could lead to Sony being unable to advertise their system during NFL games completely. Considering the substantial ratings NFL games bring in: http://www.adweek.com/news/television/nfl-caps-another-powerhouse-season-146305 ...I would say it’s safe to assume this is a pretty big deal. And a Superbowl spot? 100+ million people watching.

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Why the hell did you bold this one? You’re in a topic that’s proving this point. If you click on it and even read the first sentence you’ll see the link to an earlier article which embodied one of the most scathing criticisms that Microsoft was receiving. This isn’t the first article to make the claim that the tides are turning. The E3 fallout was brutal, yet the Gamescom coverage has been optimistic. Further inevitable announcements will likely lead to even more positive press coverage until the media won’t be so slanted in one direction.

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This has been a big assumption for some time, bolstered by other sources that have given more credibility to it. Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Sony-PS4-Camera-Price-Xbox-One-Comparison,23278.html

Why would the camera have been showed boldly alongside the system when it was unveiled? It implied it would be in the box. The camera retails now at $60. What was their likely intent? Considering the system was aimed at minimizing losses and hopefully turning a profit, the camera add-in bumping the cost up to $499 would have been a no brainer. There’s nothing in there that’s tremendously costly, meaning it probably cost Sony under $25 to produce which a likely wholesale value of $40-$45. It would have been a smart decision if Microsoft was planning to launch at $599.

How could they possibly look good if they launched at the same price AND implemented a pay wall system in a single conference? They couldn’t, so they went with the undercutting marketing strategy which they did to compete with the Saturn years before. Boxing the pay wall between the astonishing applause of a $100 price different and the blatant pandering of their DRM-less console was brilliant, at the time at least. Market tactics have a lot of psychology behind them, and Sony played their cards right with that one, but at what cost to them? The hardware itself looks to be making a profit thanks to the overall cost of materials. Patcher estimate their product cost at $325 with an estimated profit at wholesale of $50.

But that’s not taking into account R&D costs and massive amounts of money they’ll be forced to sink into marketing this thing. Sony said they won’t incur as severe losses as they did selling the PS3, but they didn’t say it would be profitable, something you’d figure they would have been touting to investors.
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The Sega Saturn launched at $399, and was forced out the door early. While initial estimates thought the PSX would launch at $399 as well, Sony made the announcement that they’d be selling their system at only $299. Not entirely Sony’s fault for the failures of the Saturn, but it certainly didn’t help. It’s quite a common practice to undercut the competition, so why you think Sony would be above such a thing doesn't show a whole lot of critical thinking on your part.

Both companies WILL SEE LOSSES. Sony isn't going to turn a profit for some time, and neither will Microsoft. I think I laid out enough previous evidence to make this apparent enough, and considering the Wii U is selling at a loss with inferior technology and almost no marketing budget then that’s not a good sign for the more costly hardware. As far as it being less detrimental to Microsoft, again, compare the companies as a whole and you will see any losses the games division incurs is minimal. With continued Live subscriptions and lowering costs of the 360 hardware then that will also do a tremendous amount to offset losses generated by the Xbox One. The PS3 still has life in it, but their PS+ numbers are meager when compared to XBL subscribers.
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Already addressed this earlier. The PS3 was a financial burden for years. The PS3 didn’t see a profit until 2010. Source: http://kotaku.com/5575994/after-nearly-four-years-the-ps3-finally-turns-a-profit

The games division has been slipping recently again and unless PS4 sales are absolutely stellar than this system will incur losses for some time. It wasn’t just the PS3 that hurt the electronics division. Poor management, a tremendous lack of innovation, and a massive drop in demand for Sony electronics buried the division under the weight of its previous success.
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Considering the sales numbers for all the major shooter franchises, I’m pretty sure this holds a lot of truth to it. I think your ridiculous bias and your inability to comprehend that my previous post had a lot of data and logical assumptions when data was lacking. And again, why is this bolded? Why would a single person’s view on an entire genre of games negate their overall success? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But don’t try to me the sky is yellow when even the most simple person would know it’s blue.
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I don’t think you want to get in a quote war because you have no actual argument and are leaning on your bias and the reinforcement of others to try to formulate some poorly thought out argument against me. The PS4 could be a tremendous success, but the fact of the matter is Sony needs more than the success of the PS4 to dig them out of the last few crippling years, and because of the situation they’re in, it would be irresponsible of them to try to compete with Microsoft in terms of the losses they’re willing to accumulate to win.

And you’re really going to try to jab at it being my first post? I wasn't under the impression your time wasted on a forum qualified you to disprove an argument by bolding text. For further readings I’d recommend Google to do your own research on crap you seem to have no comprehension of. 5,985th post as well? Goddamn.

TL;DR: You should probably spend more time reading instead of being a dick.

I really doubt one game could completely change things like that. Look at Halo and the original Xbox. Halo was gigantic, but it still lead to the xbox only selling 30 million overall.

And it's really early to say that Titanfall is going to be as big as Halo. Those types of games don't happen very often.

Yes, look at Halo. Halo, a game that almost singlehandedly ensured the original Xbox wouldn't fail in a market where they had zero footing in an industry dominated by two well entrenched competitors. The 360 thus far has sold three times as many units as the original Xbox now. I think you greatly underestimate the power of an excellent game that’s marketed incredibly well. Considering the buzz it’s already generating, it could certainly be the Xbox One’s saving grace. Time will tell, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Yes, but look how much microsoftt has to do to be on even grounds. The ps4 will remain number one. That price is going to hurt them when it comes to casuals around the world. Titan fall will do fine but it wont make one console dominate the other,especially when its available to 77 million 360 owners when it releases. The PS4 will most likely do even better in Europe this time. If they win NA fine, it wont matter on a world wide basis as the 360 has shown. The ps3 has surpassed it with many disadvantages. The ps4 has most of the advantages this time. So I do not understand how someone can say the XB1 will do better than the ps4. There will be no domination from either side, put PS4 will always be ahead.

Price will ultimately mean little, especially if Microsoft continues to try to offset the price difference through further incentives. People are putting too much weight on the price difference. The Wii U is still struggle even at the lower price. And as I said originally, overall sales really don’t mean that much unless there’s a significant difference. It’s the attach rate and pay wall subscribers that will determine how successful these consoles are at the end of the day. As far as Titanfall goes, keep in mind the 360 version is being developed by an outside entity, and Microsoft isn’t going to push the 360 version in their marketing campaign nearly as hard as they will the Xbox One version. The point of the exclusivity is to push Xbox One sales. People also like to bring up the PC version, but the reality is most people don’t own a $1,000+ gaming rig.

The PS4 will almost certainly do better in most European territories. But the fact of the matter is Europe isn’t as big of a territory as North America, and if Microsoft can dig into either territory and not give any ground elsewhere then it is possible. And again, the 360 has a higher attach rate and a very large paid subscriber base. Having less than a million console advantage isn’t a true measurement of financial success. If you’re not generating as much money and sell as many games as your competitor than it’s nothing more than a statistic to wave in front of the people who take things at face value. And the trends in one generation do not set the trends in the next, as history has shown. Sony rebounded from an embarrassing pricing model with the PS3, so I’m not sure how people believe this has solidified Microsoft’s position this generation. And outside of a lower price and a marginal advantage in power I feel don’t see any significant advantage you claim the PS4 to have. I think Sony's smug marketing tactics and the media's outright hatred for Microsoft will do more to hurt Sony because it forced Microsoft into a corner and led to a more customer oriented policies and substantial new investments.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable backlash I'm about to receive.
 
I’m going to break this down into each segment of text you bolded.

Sony posted their first profit in five years this last quarter, thanks mostly to a weakened yen and the Xpheria line which helped rebound their smartphone division. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/b...ounces-370-million-quarterly-profit.html?_r=0

The PS3 destroyed everything the PS2 had built for Sony right out of the gate. Why the massive losses? They spent a major amount on R&D and sold the console at a tremendous loss. Source: http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

Not to mention their failures over the last few years that devalued their stock and led to a massive restructuring. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/t...behind-in-the-tech-parade.html?pagewanted=all

A massive restructuring that cost 10,000 people their jobs. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/sony-layoffs_n_1420229.html

More job cuts followed in the following months. But the restructuring hasn’t done a whole lot besides drain money from their profitable insurance, film, and music divisions to bolster their failing divisions. Their propriety technology is so minuscule that they have few worthwhile patents they could liquidate. If you’d like to read Sony’s quarterly report, here you go. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/13q1_sony.pdf

They’ve continued to depreciate in value, and if Daniel Loebe has his way Sony won’t be operating as poorly as they have been in recent years. But they initially rejected Loebe’s proposal. At a 7% stake in the company, and likely amassing more each day, he’ll sway big shareholders into accepting his proposal eventually. The company is trying to rebound from the horrible state they've fallen into, but it’s going to take years of steady profits from wise investments to pull this company from the gutter.

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I’m not sure why you even bolded this point since it’s blatantly obvious if you take into account the scale of Microsoft. They generate $20 BILLION in excess cash each year and they’re sitting on over $50 billion of working capital. They have a tremendous amount of money to spend, and with Ballmer retiring this excess cash will likely be more accessible to take more risk on innovations rather than just acquiring pre-established companies. Source: http://thebusinessferret.com/microsoft-financial-analysis-destroying-value-with-too-much-cash/

We also have the Azure network to take into account, which is worth billions of dollars and embodies an infrastructure Sony does not have the cash to compete with. These servers are a tremendous asset to developers, and to act as though they won’t make a difference is arrogant. I don’t think I need a source as its quite obvious Microsoft has secured numerous high profile third party exclusives, as well as investing a lot of money in in-house studios. The acquisition of exclusive and timed-exclusive DLC is also an asset people seem to try to pass off as miniscule. But for the CoD or FIFA fans who only have one offering each year then many of them will be swayed by DLC incentives.

As for the NFL deal, that was announced alongside the unveiling of the Xbox One. Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/May13/05-21NFLPR.aspx
Now tell me, why wouldn't the “Official Game Console of the NFL” not be advertised during NFL games? The partnership could lead to Sony being unable to advertise their system during NFL games completely. Considering the substantial ratings NFL games bring in: http://www.adweek.com/news/television/nfl-caps-another-powerhouse-season-146305 ...I would say it’s safe to assume this is a pretty big deal. And a Superbowl spot? 100+ million people watching.

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Why the hell did you bold this one? You’re in a topic that’s proving this point. If you click on it and even read the first sentence you’ll see the link to an earlier article which embodied one of the most scathing criticisms that Microsoft was receiving. This isn’t the first article to make the claim that the tides are turning. The E3 fallout was brutal, yet the Gamescom coverage has been optimistic. Further inevitable announcements will likely lead to even more positive press coverage until the media won’t be so slanted in one direction.

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This has been a big assumption for some time, bolstered by other sources that have given more credibility to it. Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Sony-PS4-Camera-Price-Xbox-One-Comparison,23278.html

Why would the camera have been showed boldly alongside the system when it was unveiled? It implied it would be in the box. The camera retails now at $60. What was their likely intent? Considering the system was aimed at minimizing losses and hopefully turning a profit, the camera add-in bumping the cost up to $499 would have been a no brainer. There’s nothing in there that’s tremendously costly, meaning it probably cost Sony under $25 to produce which a likely wholesale value of $40-$45. It would have been a smart decision if Microsoft was planning to launch at $599.

How could they possibly look good if they launched at the same price AND implemented a pay wall system in a single conference? They couldn’t, so they went with the undercutting marketing strategy which they did to compete with the Saturn years before. Boxing the pay wall between the astonishing applause of a $100 price different and the blatant pandering of their DRM-less console was brilliant, at the time at least. Market tactics have a lot of psychology behind them, and Sony played their cards right with that one, but at what cost to them? The hardware itself looks to be making a profit thanks to the overall cost of materials. Patcher estimate their product cost at $325 with an estimated profit at wholesale of $50.

But that’s not taking into account R&D costs and massive amounts of money they’ll be forced to sink into marketing this thing. Sony said they won’t incur as severe losses as they did selling the PS3, but they didn’t say it would be profitable, something you’d figure they would have been touting to investors.
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The Sega Saturn launched at $399, and was forced out the door early. While initial estimates thought the PSX would launch at $399 as well, Sony made the announcement that they’d be selling their system at only $299. Not entirely Sony’s fault for the failures of the Saturn, but it certainly didn’t help. It’s quite a common practice to undercut the competition, so why you think Sony would be above such a thing doesn't show a whole lot of critical thinking on your part.

Both companies WILL SEE LOSSES. Sony isn't going to turn a profit for some time, and neither will Microsoft. I think I laid out enough previous evidence to make this apparent enough, and considering the Wii U is selling at a loss with inferior technology and almost no marketing budget then that’s not a good sign for the more costly hardware. As far as it being less detrimental to Microsoft, again, compare the companies as a whole and you will see any losses the games division incurs is minimal. With continued Live subscriptions and lowering costs of the 360 hardware then that will also do a tremendous amount to offset losses generated by the Xbox One. The PS3 still has life in it, but their PS+ numbers are meager when compared to XBL subscribers.
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Already addressed this earlier. The PS3 was a financial burden for years. The PS3 didn’t see a profit until 2010. Source: http://kotaku.com/5575994/after-nearly-four-years-the-ps3-finally-turns-a-profit

The games division has been slipping recently again and unless PS4 sales are absolutely stellar than this system will incur losses for some time. It wasn’t just the PS3 that hurt the electronics division. Poor management, a tremendous lack of innovation, and a massive drop in demand for Sony electronics buried the division under the weight of its previous success.
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Considering the sales numbers for all the major shooter franchises, I’m pretty sure this holds a lot of truth to it. I think your ridiculous bias and your inability to comprehend that my previous post had a lot of data and logical assumptions when data was lacking. And again, why is this bolded? Why would a single person’s view on an entire genre of games negate their overall success? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But don’t try to me the sky is yellow when even the most simple person would know it’s blue.
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I don’t think you want to get in a quote war because you have no actual argument and are leaning on your bias and the reinforcement of others to try to formulate some poorly thought out argument against me. The PS4 could be a tremendous success, but the fact of the matter is Sony needs more than the success of the PS4 to dig them out of the last few crippling years, and because of the situation they’re in, it would be irresponsible of them to try to compete with Microsoft in terms of the losses they’re willing to accumulate to win.

And you’re really going to try to jab at it being my first post? I wasn't under the impression your time wasted on a forum qualified you to disprove an argument by bolding text. For further readings I’d recommend Google to do your own research on crap you seem to have no comprehension of. 5,985th post as well? Goddamn.

TL;DR: You should probably spend more time reading instead of being a dick.



Yes, look at Halo. Halo, a game that almost singlehandedly ensured the original Xbox wouldn't fail in a market where they had zero footing in an industry dominated by two well entrenched competitors. The 360 thus far has sold three times as many units as the original Xbox now. I think you greatly underestimate the power of an excellent game that’s marketed incredibly well. Considering the buzz it’s already generating, it could certainly be the Xbox One’s saving grace. Time will tell, but I wouldn't rule it out.



Price will ultimately mean little, especially if Microsoft continues to try to offset the price difference through further incentives. People are putting too much weight on the price difference. The Wii U is still struggle even at the lower price. And as I said originally, overall sales really don’t mean that much unless there’s a significant difference. It’s the attach rate and pay wall subscribers that will determine how successful these consoles are at the end of the day. As far as Titanfall goes, keep in mind the 360 version is being developed by an outside entity, and Microsoft isn’t going to push the 360 version in their marketing campaign nearly as hard as they will the Xbox One version. The point of the exclusivity is to push Xbox One sales. People also like to bring up the PC version, but the reality is most people don’t own a $1,000+ gaming rig.

The PS4 will almost certainly do better in most European territories. But the fact of the matter is Europe isn’t as big of a territory as North America, and if Microsoft can dig into either territory and not give any ground elsewhere then it is possible. And again, the 360 has a higher attach rate and a very large paid subscriber base. Having less than a million console advantage isn’t a true measurement of financial success. If you’re not generating as much money and sell as many games as your competitor than it’s nothing more than a statistic to wave in front of the people who take things at face value. And the trends in one generation do not set the trends in the next, as history has shown. Sony rebounded from an embarrassing pricing model with the PS3, so I’m not sure how people believe this has solidified Microsoft’s position this generation. And outside of a lower price and a marginal advantage in power I feel don’t see any significant advantage you claim the PS4 to have. I think Sony's smug marketing tactics and the media's outright hatred for Microsoft will do more to hurt Sony because it forced Microsoft into a corner and led to a more customer oriented policies and substantial new investments.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable backlash I'm about to receive.


So... everything Microsoft has done or ever will do is right and everything sony has done is wrong. You just wrote a fucking thesis that's the same argument that 12 year olds make on youtube.

I dig the effort but if you're going to be that exhaustive in your research you should probably open yourself up to more possibilities than just the ones you hope for. And to be so certain only makes you seem that much more green. Multimillionaire analysts don't have any clue how things are going to play out but you have it all figured out.

Most people here do what i'm busting your balls about but you seem smart enough that you should know better.
 
And outside of a lower price and a marginal advantage in power I feel don’t see any significant advantage you claim the PS4 to have. I think Sony's smug marketing tactics and the media's outright hatred for Microsoft will do more to hurt Sony because it forced Microsoft into a corner and led to a more customer oriented policies and substantial new investments.

There's not much arguing against most things you said. Most of them are factual or based on factual evidence so I think you have a very grounded perspective of things. However, I think it's a bit wrong for you to phrase things in the way you did in that last quote.

The way you put it makes it seem like the media and community backlash against Microsoft's DRM and anti-consumer measures are a bad thing that only led to Sony being hurt in the process and I have to disagree.

Before the backlash Microsoft was in an equally strong position as Sony entering this console generation, in terms of hardware sales both consoles have a strong position in the living room and I honestly have to question how many actual working 360's are in people's houses compared to how many PS3's, given how unreliable their initial units were and how many 360 owners had to purchase multiple units over the years. This is certainly a problem that is more common on Microsoft's side than Sony, but that is besides the point.

The point I'm trying to make is that the media backlash put Sony in a stronger PR position and led to a better product for consumers by Microsoft. Microsoft proved to be able to listen and respond rapidly to consumers demands, which in itself is a positive thing, but it also let to the PS4 capture of a lot of mindshare and appreciation. Most reports we've seen so far seem to suggest that the PS4 will have a stronger launch. It remains to be seen if that will actually become true, but I think the backlash against MS didn't hurt Sony, it in fact gave them a "head start" in a sense.

If Microsoft remains strong in this console generation and Sony has to continue aggressively push out quality software at a steady pace it will only lead to great things for consumers.
 
So...everything Microsoft has done or ever will do is right and everything Sony has done is wrong.

Exactly. He's just another huge Xbox apologist/fanboy. I would just ignore him.

Plus just because Microsoft has more cash than Sony doesn't mean that they can freely spend all of it on that division. As a matter of fact, the Xbox division is in even worse shape than the Playstation division. It's been in the red for now 12 years. 12 years!
 
TitanFall is going to do well, but it's not going to be some CoD phenomenon. It's hindered by only being on certain platforms, for one.

Secondly, the market is now so saturated with different shooters that people have plenty of options to choose from.

Not having a single player will also hurt it more than some think.

I'm sure it'll push some systems in the spring for xbox 1, but not expecting it to really push much...it's also on 360 and PC starting out.

I can see it getting more popular once it's moved on from last-gen and is day and date with PS4, XB1, and PC only, but I have a feeling Destiny is going to do a lot better.

The market is crowded with games trying to be like CoD. A game that offers something new actually has a pretty good chance to be successful.
 
GAF still seems pretty anti-X1 and pro-PS4 but I'm def noting that when I visit other sites (such as the Joe Rogan forums, which isn't even a big gaming community) a lot of favour as swung back to X1.

Post E3 even forums like the Rogan Board were so ant-X1, all proclaiming MS to be dead on arrival.... not so much anymore.
 
The PS4 will almost certainly do better in most European territories. But the fact of the matter is Europe isn’t as big of a territory as North America
Well, USA pop. 313 million as of 2012. EU 720 million.
A lot of economic factors are in favor of Europe for any business, though is much trickier to operate in 30 different legislations, cultures etc. Europe is mucjlh more important than You think and one of the reasons MS didn't take over whole world. They are regularly fined for anticonsumer practices, last one 700 m Euro, for some reasons apparently.
Therefore I am surprised that so many people are afraid of Sony domination, while all signs and proofs from OS and web explorers and many more markets suggest that MS domination would be times worse than Sony's
 
I disagree

Xbox One is still $100 more expensive
Gold is still $10 more expensive
There is a paywall behind basic features
The system is weaker
Still haven't seen a must have Kinect game
Network and OS features seem to be on parity now where as last gen PS3 was clearly terrible
Killer Instinct isn't a full game, with only 6-8 characters, Ryse looks like shit, Dead Rising looks terrible.
There is no Instant Game Collection alternative, whee as with PS4 there is a ton of free shot such as Drive Club PSN+ Edition, Re0gun, Don't Starve, Secret Ponchos, Outlast and even F2P games like Planetside 2, Blacksite Retribution, DC Universe, Warframe, War Thunder.
 
Microsoft proved to be able to listen and respond rapidly to consumers demands .

Tbh, 180 started when preorder results started to flow in. So in a sense You are right about listening to consumer demands ;) but probably You meant drm and stuff?

The whole fiasco reminds me'80s Coca Cola trying to change Coke flavor. Classic example of corporate trying to tell consumers what they should buy when it's exactly opposite.
 
I’m going to break this down into each segment of text you bolded.

Sony posted their first profit in five years this last quarter, thanks mostly to a weakened yen and the Xpheria line which helped rebound their smartphone division. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/b...ounces-370-million-quarterly-profit.html?_r=0

The PS3 destroyed everything the PS2 had built for Sony right out of the gate. Why the massive losses? They spent a major amount on R&D and sold the console at a tremendous loss. Source: http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

Not to mention their failures over the last few years that devalued their stock and led to a massive restructuring. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/t...behind-in-the-tech-parade.html?pagewanted=all

A massive restructuring that cost 10,000 people their jobs. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/sony-layoffs_n_1420229.html

More job cuts followed in the following months. But the restructuring hasn’t done a whole lot besides drain money from their profitable insurance, film, and music divisions to bolster their failing divisions. Their propriety technology is so minuscule that they have few worthwhile patents they could liquidate. If you’d like to read Sony’s quarterly report, here you go. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/13q1_sony.pdf

They’ve continued to depreciate in value, and if Daniel Loebe has his way Sony won’t be operating as poorly as they have been in recent years. But they initially rejected Loebe’s proposal. At a 7% stake in the company, and likely amassing more each day, he’ll sway big shareholders into accepting his proposal eventually. The company is trying to rebound from the horrible state they've fallen into, but it’s going to take years of steady profits from wise investments to pull this company from the gutter.

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I’m not sure why you even bolded this point since it’s blatantly obvious if you take into account the scale of Microsoft. They generate $20 BILLION in excess cash each year and they’re sitting on over $50 billion of working capital. They have a tremendous amount of money to spend, and with Ballmer retiring this excess cash will likely be more accessible to take more risk on innovations rather than just acquiring pre-established companies. Source: http://thebusinessferret.com/microsoft-financial-analysis-destroying-value-with-too-much-cash/

We also have the Azure network to take into account, which is worth billions of dollars and embodies an infrastructure Sony does not have the cash to compete with. These servers are a tremendous asset to developers, and to act as though they won’t make a difference is arrogant. I don’t think I need a source as its quite obvious Microsoft has secured numerous high profile third party exclusives, as well as investing a lot of money in in-house studios. The acquisition of exclusive and timed-exclusive DLC is also an asset people seem to try to pass off as miniscule. But for the CoD or FIFA fans who only have one offering each year then many of them will be swayed by DLC incentives.

As for the NFL deal, that was announced alongside the unveiling of the Xbox One. Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/May13/05-21NFLPR.aspx
Now tell me, why wouldn't the “Official Game Console of the NFL” not be advertised during NFL games? The partnership could lead to Sony being unable to advertise their system during NFL games completely. Considering the substantial ratings NFL games bring in: http://www.adweek.com/news/television/nfl-caps-another-powerhouse-season-146305 ...I would say it’s safe to assume this is a pretty big deal. And a Superbowl spot? 100+ million people watching.

----

Why the hell did you bold this one? You’re in a topic that’s proving this point. If you click on it and even read the first sentence you’ll see the link to an earlier article which embodied one of the most scathing criticisms that Microsoft was receiving. This isn’t the first article to make the claim that the tides are turning. The E3 fallout was brutal, yet the Gamescom coverage has been optimistic. Further inevitable announcements will likely lead to even more positive press coverage until the media won’t be so slanted in one direction.

----

This has been a big assumption for some time, bolstered by other sources that have given more credibility to it. Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Sony-PS4-Camera-Price-Xbox-One-Comparison,23278.html

Why would the camera have been showed boldly alongside the system when it was unveiled? It implied it would be in the box. The camera retails now at $60. What was their likely intent? Considering the system was aimed at minimizing losses and hopefully turning a profit, the camera add-in bumping the cost up to $499 would have been a no brainer. There’s nothing in there that’s tremendously costly, meaning it probably cost Sony under $25 to produce which a likely wholesale value of $40-$45. It would have been a smart decision if Microsoft was planning to launch at $599.

How could they possibly look good if they launched at the same price AND implemented a pay wall system in a single conference? They couldn’t, so they went with the undercutting marketing strategy which they did to compete with the Saturn years before. Boxing the pay wall between the astonishing applause of a $100 price different and the blatant pandering of their DRM-less console was brilliant, at the time at least. Market tactics have a lot of psychology behind them, and Sony played their cards right with that one, but at what cost to them? The hardware itself looks to be making a profit thanks to the overall cost of materials. Patcher estimate their product cost at $325 with an estimated profit at wholesale of $50.

But that’s not taking into account R&D costs and massive amounts of money they’ll be forced to sink into marketing this thing. Sony said they won’t incur as severe losses as they did selling the PS3, but they didn’t say it would be profitable, something you’d figure they would have been touting to investors.
---
The Sega Saturn launched at $399, and was forced out the door early. While initial estimates thought the PSX would launch at $399 as well, Sony made the announcement that they’d be selling their system at only $299. Not entirely Sony’s fault for the failures of the Saturn, but it certainly didn’t help. It’s quite a common practice to undercut the competition, so why you think Sony would be above such a thing doesn't show a whole lot of critical thinking on your part.

Both companies WILL SEE LOSSES. Sony isn't going to turn a profit for some time, and neither will Microsoft. I think I laid out enough previous evidence to make this apparent enough, and considering the Wii U is selling at a loss with inferior technology and almost no marketing budget then that’s not a good sign for the more costly hardware. As far as it being less detrimental to Microsoft, again, compare the companies as a whole and you will see any losses the games division incurs is minimal. With continued Live subscriptions and lowering costs of the 360 hardware then that will also do a tremendous amount to offset losses generated by the Xbox One. The PS3 still has life in it, but their PS+ numbers are meager when compared to XBL subscribers.
---
Already addressed this earlier. The PS3 was a financial burden for years. The PS3 didn’t see a profit until 2010. Source: http://kotaku.com/5575994/after-nearly-four-years-the-ps3-finally-turns-a-profit

The games division has been slipping recently again and unless PS4 sales are absolutely stellar than this system will incur losses for some time. It wasn’t just the PS3 that hurt the electronics division. Poor management, a tremendous lack of innovation, and a massive drop in demand for Sony electronics buried the division under the weight of its previous success.
---
Considering the sales numbers for all the major shooter franchises, I’m pretty sure this holds a lot of truth to it. I think your ridiculous bias and your inability to comprehend that my previous post had a lot of data and logical assumptions when data was lacking. And again, why is this bolded? Why would a single person’s view on an entire genre of games negate their overall success? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But don’t try to me the sky is yellow when even the most simple person would know it’s blue.
---
I don’t think you want to get in a quote war because you have no actual argument and are leaning on your bias and the reinforcement of others to try to formulate some poorly thought out argument against me. The PS4 could be a tremendous success, but the fact of the matter is Sony needs more than the success of the PS4 to dig them out of the last few crippling years, and because of the situation they’re in, it would be irresponsible of them to try to compete with Microsoft in terms of the losses they’re willing to accumulate to win.

And you’re really going to try to jab at it being my first post? I wasn't under the impression your time wasted on a forum qualified you to disprove an argument by bolding text. For further readings I’d recommend Google to do your own research on crap you seem to have no comprehension of. 5,985th post as well? Goddamn.

TL;DR: You should probably spend more time reading instead of being a dick.



Yes, look at Halo. Halo, a game that almost singlehandedly ensured the original Xbox wouldn't fail in a market where they had zero footing in an industry dominated by two well entrenched competitors. The 360 thus far has sold three times as many units as the original Xbox now. I think you greatly underestimate the power of an excellent game that’s marketed incredibly well. Considering the buzz it’s already generating, it could certainly be the Xbox One’s saving grace. Time will tell, but I wouldn't rule it out.



Price will ultimately mean little, especially if Microsoft continues to try to offset the price difference through further incentives. People are putting too much weight on the price difference. The Wii U is still struggle even at the lower price. And as I said originally, overall sales really don’t mean that much unless there’s a significant difference. It’s the attach rate and pay wall subscribers that will determine how successful these consoles are at the end of the day. As far as Titanfall goes, keep in mind the 360 version is being developed by an outside entity, and Microsoft isn’t going to push the 360 version in their marketing campaign nearly as hard as they will the Xbox One version. The point of the exclusivity is to push Xbox One sales. People also like to bring up the PC version, but the reality is most people don’t own a $1,000+ gaming rig.

The PS4 will almost certainly do better in most European territories. But the fact of the matter is Europe isn’t as big of a territory as North America, and if Microsoft can dig into either territory and not give any ground elsewhere then it is possible. And again, the 360 has a higher attach rate and a very large paid subscriber base. Having less than a million console advantage isn’t a true measurement of financial success. If you’re not generating as much money and sell as many games as your competitor than it’s nothing more than a statistic to wave in front of the people who take things at face value. And the trends in one generation do not set the trends in the next, as history has shown. Sony rebounded from an embarrassing pricing model with the PS3, so I’m not sure how people believe this has solidified Microsoft’s position this generation. And outside of a lower price and a marginal advantage in power I feel don’t see any significant advantage you claim the PS4 to have. I think Sony's smug marketing tactics and the media's outright hatred for Microsoft will do more to hurt Sony because it forced Microsoft into a corner and led to a more customer oriented policies and substantial new investments.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable backlash I'm about to receive.


Sony will be in the black 6mths post launch, there is ostensibly no capex associated with the machine and nothing major to come since they will not be fabbing their own chips. Their costs are variable and highly manageable. Attach rate comes from winning the hardcore. Who do you think is ahead on that metric?

Microsoft has zero top line revenue growth. This is why their investors are angry and why the stock has not appreciated in over a decade. Having billions in cash matters very little when any new project you start fails to generate money or is earnings dilutive in the sense that they will never make a windows like margin on it, this is the reason why inevtors want higher cash distributions via bigger divvy or buy-back. Same thing happening at Apple.

Sony sold more consoles this generation, likely ending up with 100m+ again by end of life cycle with a higher ASP, slower time to market and lack of game pipeline.

This time they have none of those issues and the pre-order numbers speak for themselves. Microsofts FIFA deal is desperation since they have atrocious EU pre order numbers

The growth in gaming coming from the emerging markets. Focusing on North America only is a mugs game long term. Europe will soon surpass that market on terms of size too.
 
So... everything Microsoft has done or ever will do is right and everything sony has done is wrong. You just wrote a fucking thesis that's the same argument that 12 year olds make on youtube.

I dig the effort but if you're going to be that exhaustive in your research you should probably open yourself up to more possibilities than just the ones you hope for. And to be so certain only makes you seem that much more green. Multimillionaire analysts don't have any clue how things are going to play out but you have it all figured out.

Most people here do what i'm busting your balls about but you seem smart enough that you should know better.

A very good point you make and it is my feeling it applies both ways. A lot of people think Sony cannot possibly fail to decimate the XB1 in every single market. The expectations are so high that this will happen that anything other than the XB1 selling like the Wii-U(sorry Nintendo) and PS4 selling like the PS2 will cause...lets say hurt feelings.
 
I know we talk crap about kinect and tv/sports but if this hits the casual market xboxone could pull a Wii and be huge. I think once Xbox hits 10mil M$ will release a $299 Xbox one with $20/month gold sub. Sign a soccer fantasy deal and they should be onto a winner.

Momentum is key too, Xbox has titanfall, project spark and kinect sports coming out q1 14. So no game drought like wiiU.
 
I was reading the paper today (The Irish Daily Star. No laughing in the back.) and their weekly games section had a report from Gamescom was "XBox One is totally not awful any more. We love it!". I know it's a tabloid, but they were fairly damning of it post E3 which was pretty bad if a mainstream tabloid does it. But they were really complementary of it and didn't think the PS4 had a strong showing which was fairly interesting reading for a tabloids take on it. And I think as the 180 seeps more into public conciousness and more mainstream outlets like tabloids discuss it in a positive way. The damage will likely become more undone as that perception starts to come in. Now I don't think it's going to save the launch at all, but it's certainly going to lead to a much more interesting landscape once we head into 2014 and the big hits like Halo and Titanfall start dropping. I think the mainstream media is going to be an interesting sector to keep an eye on. Especially when both companies kick off their advertising campaigns in full before launch.
 
Unfortunately for them reversing all their bad policies isn't going to change public opinion over night.

You mean Internet forum opinion? To me, the reversal has already happened. Many talk as if the original policies never existed/were intended.
 
TitanFall is going to do well, but it's not going to be some CoD phenomenon. It's hindered by only being on certain platforms, for one.

Secondly, the market is now so saturated with different shooters that people have plenty of options to choose from.

Not having a single player will also hurt it more than some think.

I'm sure it'll push some systems in the spring for xbox 1, but not expecting it to really push much...it's also on 360 and PC starting out.

I can see it getting more popular once it's moved on from last-gen and is day and date with PS4, XB1, and PC only, but I have a feeling Destiny is going to do a lot better.

I don't think it will. I've never been swayed by shooters that concentrate mainly on MP, but this looks like a lot of fun. Certainly more than any other shooter I've seen for next-gen so far, a must-buy in my opinion.

Destiny will do better on sales, but I don't think Titanfall will sell poorly in comparison.
 
It's all very well talking about what MS can do in an attempt just to get level pegging with Sony, clearly the latter are holding so much back in terms of their major AAA announcements. Not to mention, they have a SKU that isn't hobbled by an expensive camera, with more scope to cut prices as a counter to any ONE price movement.

Price is not as straight forward as it seems either, consumers react positively when benchmarks are broken, i.e under £300 and £200. Right now, MS are yet to break the £400 barrier, which is hugely expensive in the UK market. That's moving into the PC/laptop price range, and away from the gadget market where consoles compete with phones, tablets etc.
 
I’m going to break this down into each segment of text you bolded.

Sony posted their first profit in five years this last quarter, thanks mostly to a weakened yen and the Xpheria line which helped rebound their smartphone division. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/b...ounces-370-million-quarterly-profit.html?_r=0

The PS3 destroyed everything the PS2 had built for Sony right out of the gate. Why the massive losses? They spent a major amount on R&D and sold the console at a tremendous loss. Source: http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

Not to mention their failures over the last few years that devalued their stock and led to a massive restructuring. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/t...behind-in-the-tech-parade.html?pagewanted=all

A massive restructuring that cost 10,000 people their jobs. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/sony-layoffs_n_1420229.html

More job cuts followed in the following months. But the restructuring hasn’t done a whole lot besides drain money from their profitable insurance, film, and music divisions to bolster their failing divisions. Their propriety technology is so minuscule that they have few worthwhile patents they could liquidate. If you’d like to read Sony’s quarterly report, here you go. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/13q1_sony.pdf

They’ve continued to depreciate in value, and if Daniel Loebe has his way Sony won’t be operating as poorly as they have been in recent years. But they initially rejected Loebe’s proposal. At a 7% stake in the company, and likely amassing more each day, he’ll sway big shareholders into accepting his proposal eventually. The company is trying to rebound from the horrible state they've fallen into, but it’s going to take years of steady profits from wise investments to pull this company from the gutter.

----

I’m not sure why you even bolded this point since it’s blatantly obvious if you take into account the scale of Microsoft. They generate $20 BILLION in excess cash each year and they’re sitting on over $50 billion of working capital. They have a tremendous amount of money to spend, and with Ballmer retiring this excess cash will likely be more accessible to take more risk on innovations rather than just acquiring pre-established companies. Source: http://thebusinessferret.com/microsoft-financial-analysis-destroying-value-with-too-much-cash/

We also have the Azure network to take into account, which is worth billions of dollars and embodies an infrastructure Sony does not have the cash to compete with. These servers are a tremendous asset to developers, and to act as though they won’t make a difference is arrogant. I don’t think I need a source as its quite obvious Microsoft has secured numerous high profile third party exclusives, as well as investing a lot of money in in-house studios. The acquisition of exclusive and timed-exclusive DLC is also an asset people seem to try to pass off as miniscule. But for the CoD or FIFA fans who only have one offering each year then many of them will be swayed by DLC incentives.

As for the NFL deal, that was announced alongside the unveiling of the Xbox One. Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/May13/05-21NFLPR.aspx
Now tell me, why wouldn't the “Official Game Console of the NFL” not be advertised during NFL games? The partnership could lead to Sony being unable to advertise their system during NFL games completely. Considering the substantial ratings NFL games bring in: http://www.adweek.com/news/television/nfl-caps-another-powerhouse-season-146305 ...I would say it’s safe to assume this is a pretty big deal. And a Superbowl spot? 100+ million people watching.

----

Why the hell did you bold this one? You’re in a topic that’s proving this point. If you click on it and even read the first sentence you’ll see the link to an earlier article which embodied one of the most scathing criticisms that Microsoft was receiving. This isn’t the first article to make the claim that the tides are turning. The E3 fallout was brutal, yet the Gamescom coverage has been optimistic. Further inevitable announcements will likely lead to even more positive press coverage until the media won’t be so slanted in one direction.

----

This has been a big assumption for some time, bolstered by other sources that have given more credibility to it. Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Sony-PS4-Camera-Price-Xbox-One-Comparison,23278.html

Why would the camera have been showed boldly alongside the system when it was unveiled? It implied it would be in the box. The camera retails now at $60. What was their likely intent? Considering the system was aimed at minimizing losses and hopefully turning a profit, the camera add-in bumping the cost up to $499 would have been a no brainer. There’s nothing in there that’s tremendously costly, meaning it probably cost Sony under $25 to produce which a likely wholesale value of $40-$45. It would have been a smart decision if Microsoft was planning to launch at $599.

How could they possibly look good if they launched at the same price AND implemented a pay wall system in a single conference? They couldn’t, so they went with the undercutting marketing strategy which they did to compete with the Saturn years before. Boxing the pay wall between the astonishing applause of a $100 price different and the blatant pandering of their DRM-less console was brilliant, at the time at least. Market tactics have a lot of psychology behind them, and Sony played their cards right with that one, but at what cost to them? The hardware itself looks to be making a profit thanks to the overall cost of materials. Patcher estimate their product cost at $325 with an estimated profit at wholesale of $50.

But that’s not taking into account R&D costs and massive amounts of money they’ll be forced to sink into marketing this thing. Sony said they won’t incur as severe losses as they did selling the PS3, but they didn’t say it would be profitable, something you’d figure they would have been touting to investors.
---
The Sega Saturn launched at $399, and was forced out the door early. While initial estimates thought the PSX would launch at $399 as well, Sony made the announcement that they’d be selling their system at only $299. Not entirely Sony’s fault for the failures of the Saturn, but it certainly didn’t help. It’s quite a common practice to undercut the competition, so why you think Sony would be above such a thing doesn't show a whole lot of critical thinking on your part.

Both companies WILL SEE LOSSES. Sony isn't going to turn a profit for some time, and neither will Microsoft. I think I laid out enough previous evidence to make this apparent enough, and considering the Wii U is selling at a loss with inferior technology and almost no marketing budget then that’s not a good sign for the more costly hardware. As far as it being less detrimental to Microsoft, again, compare the companies as a whole and you will see any losses the games division incurs is minimal. With continued Live subscriptions and lowering costs of the 360 hardware then that will also do a tremendous amount to offset losses generated by the Xbox One. The PS3 still has life in it, but their PS+ numbers are meager when compared to XBL subscribers.
---
Already addressed this earlier. The PS3 was a financial burden for years. The PS3 didn’t see a profit until 2010. Source: http://kotaku.com/5575994/after-nearly-four-years-the-ps3-finally-turns-a-profit

The games division has been slipping recently again and unless PS4 sales are absolutely stellar than this system will incur losses for some time. It wasn’t just the PS3 that hurt the electronics division. Poor management, a tremendous lack of innovation, and a massive drop in demand for Sony electronics buried the division under the weight of its previous success.
---
Considering the sales numbers for all the major shooter franchises, I’m pretty sure this holds a lot of truth to it. I think your ridiculous bias and your inability to comprehend that my previous post had a lot of data and logical assumptions when data was lacking. And again, why is this bolded? Why would a single person’s view on an entire genre of games negate their overall success? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But don’t try to me the sky is yellow when even the most simple person would know it’s blue.
---
I don’t think you want to get in a quote war because you have no actual argument and are leaning on your bias and the reinforcement of others to try to formulate some poorly thought out argument against me. The PS4 could be a tremendous success, but the fact of the matter is Sony needs more than the success of the PS4 to dig them out of the last few crippling years, and because of the situation they’re in, it would be irresponsible of them to try to compete with Microsoft in terms of the losses they’re willing to accumulate to win.

And you’re really going to try to jab at it being my first post? I wasn't under the impression your time wasted on a forum qualified you to disprove an argument by bolding text. For further readings I’d recommend Google to do your own research on crap you seem to have no comprehension of. 5,985th post as well? Goddamn.

TL;DR: You should probably spend more time reading instead of being a dick.



Yes, look at Halo. Halo, a game that almost singlehandedly ensured the original Xbox wouldn't fail in a market where they had zero footing in an industry dominated by two well entrenched competitors. The 360 thus far has sold three times as many units as the original Xbox now. I think you greatly underestimate the power of an excellent game that’s marketed incredibly well. Considering the buzz it’s already generating, it could certainly be the Xbox One’s saving grace. Time will tell, but I wouldn't rule it out.



Price will ultimately mean little, especially if Microsoft continues to try to offset the price difference through further incentives. People are putting too much weight on the price difference. The Wii U is still struggle even at the lower price. And as I said originally, overall sales really don’t mean that much unless there’s a significant difference. It’s the attach rate and pay wall subscribers that will determine how successful these consoles are at the end of the day. As far as Titanfall goes, keep in mind the 360 version is being developed by an outside entity, and Microsoft isn’t going to push the 360 version in their marketing campaign nearly as hard as they will the Xbox One version. The point of the exclusivity is to push Xbox One sales. People also like to bring up the PC version, but the reality is most people don’t own a $1,000+ gaming rig.

The PS4 will almost certainly do better in most European territories. But the fact of the matter is Europe isn’t as big of a territory as North America, and if Microsoft can dig into either territory and not give any ground elsewhere then it is possible. And again, the 360 has a higher attach rate and a very large paid subscriber base. Having less than a million console advantage isn’t a true measurement of financial success. If you’re not generating as much money and sell as many games as your competitor than it’s nothing more than a statistic to wave in front of the people who take things at face value. And the trends in one generation do not set the trends in the next, as history has shown. Sony rebounded from an embarrassing pricing model with the PS3, so I’m not sure how people believe this has solidified Microsoft’s position this generation. And outside of a lower price and a marginal advantage in power I feel don’t see any significant advantage you claim the PS4 to have. I think Sony's smug marketing tactics and the media's outright hatred for Microsoft will do more to hurt Sony because it forced Microsoft into a corner and led to a more customer oriented policies and substantial new investments.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable backlash I'm about to receive.

All im going to say is I appreciate your effort, but like iI said before, Your analysis boils down to a bunch of assumptions and wishful thinking. Someone else with more time on their hands and a bit more knowledge on the subject will refute your points. Fair play though. You put more effort into this than most.

So... everything Microsoft has done or ever will do is right and everything sony has done is wrong. You just wrote a fucking thesis that's the same argument that 12 year olds make on youtube.

I dig the effort but if you're going to be that exhaustive in your research you should probably open yourself up to more possibilities than just the ones you hope for. And to be so certain only makes you seem that much more green. Multimillionaire analysts don't have any clue how things are going to play out but you have it all figured out.

Most people here do what i'm busting your balls about but you seem smart enough that you should know better.

Basically. it reads like a fanboy wish list dressed up as intelligent analysis. Still, he backed up his points and without spending an hour on google im just going to look silly trying to refute him, even If i can see through his clear bias. I think he is going to be very disappointed if he expects things to play out like that this gen, even if Microsoft do end up being more successful than sony.
 
I disagree

Xbox One is still $100 more expensive
Gold is still $10 more expensive
There is a paywall behind basic features
The system is weaker
Still haven't seen a must have Kinect game
Network and OS features seem to be on parity now where as last gen PS3 was clearly terrible
Killer Instinct isn't a full game, with only 6-8 characters, Ryse looks like shit, Dead Rising looks terrible.
There is no Instant Game Collection alternative, whee as with PS4 there is a ton of free shot such as Drive Club PSN+ Edition, Re0gun, Don't Starve, Secret Ponchos, Outlast and even F2P games like Planetside 2, Blacksite Retribution, DC Universe, Warframe, War Thunder.
I love your lists when you come into an Xbox One thread lol. They are entertaining and wouldn't be the least bit biased, would they? I hope you realize that anybody with some common sense sees posts from posters like you and disregards them immediately. But by all means keep the lists coming because I do get the occasional chuckle from them.
 
I was reading the paper today (The Irish Daily Star. No laughing in the back.) and their weekly games section had a report from Gamescom was "XBox One is totally not awful any more. We love it!". I know it's a tabloid, but they were fairly damning of it post E3 which was pretty bad if a mainstream tabloid does it. But they were really complementary of it and didn't think the PS4 had a strong showing which was fairly interesting reading for a tabloids take on it. And I think as the 180 seeps more into public conciousness and more mainstream outlets like tabloids discuss it in a positive way. The damage will likely become more undone as that perception starts to come in. Now I don't think it's going to save the launch at all, but it's certainly going to lead to a much more interesting landscape once we head into 2014 and the big hits like Halo and Titanfall start dropping. I think the mainstream media is going to be an interesting sector to keep an eye on. Especially when both companies kick off their advertising campaigns in full before launch.

I believe Disney policy is a good example of this.
Horrible paraphrasing and butchering ahead.

"Righting something wrong, leaves a better impression than having it right the first time".
It shows that they care and will go out of their way to do what's right, because in the end you are the one paying and the customer should get what he wants not forced what you think you want.

Like Google for example. Fuck you Google, I don't even want to visit YouTube anymore.
 
You mean Internet forum opinion? To me, the reversal has already happened. Many talk as if the original policies never existed/were intended.
This junior sees a massively pro-Xbone flood of newly minted juniors. By itself it's not completely damning, but boy is it smokey in here.

The multiple Xbone 180s mean that the Xbone isn't the stillborn console it would have been, but think about what that means. Microsoft had HYOOOOGE advantages over a truly weakened Sony and their original vision had them forfeiting EVERY. SINGLE. 'ONE'. That screams 'tone deaf' and 'oblivious' to me. So what are we left with? A weaker console with features and a peripheral geared to casuals at the very un-casual price of $500. A greatly reduced set of launch territories that reeks (it rhymes with meek!) of supply problems. A Microsoft that seems pretty damned sure that what we want from our games is exactly what we got last gen except prettier browns and greys (and microtransactions!). Microsoft is 'listening' to gamers the way one 'listens' to someone intently when they are ferociously squeezing your balls with set of pliers, promising third party exclusives and offering EU the moon (or at least FIFA) in the most asterisked way possible (only for pre-orders that are of limited availability at this point). It would be comical if you didn't know that the guy you have by the balls is going to try to wallop you but good as soon as you remove the pliers.

It didn't have to be this way. Where is the Microsoft Xbox team that gave us Halo, Amped, Rallisport, and Abe's Oddessey, let alone the serious lead they had on indies? Where's the Microsoft that showed the entire industry how an online console is SUPPOSED to work? Oh, right - everyone involved with Xbox on those fronts that isn't Ubisoft, EA, and Activision has fled its relationship with Microsoft with all the haste of a domestic abuse victim.

Again, it didn't have to be this way - which makes a lowly gamer like me think that it IS this way because this is the way that Microsoft wants it.

"The Xbox One isn't stillborn anymore" isn't the same thing as "The Xbox One is THE console to get!" It SHOULD have been, it could have been, but right now, it just isn't.
 
I was reading the paper today (The Irish Daily Star. No laughing in the back.) and their weekly games section had a report from Gamescom was "XBox One is totally not awful any more. We love it!". I know it's a tabloid, but they were fairly damning of it post E3 which was pretty bad if a mainstream tabloid does it. But they were really complementary of it and didn't think the PS4 had a strong showing which was fairly interesting reading for a tabloids take on it. And I think as the 180 seeps more into public conciousness and more mainstream outlets like tabloids discuss it in a positive way. The damage will likely become more undone as that perception starts to come in. Now I don't think it's going to save the launch at all, but it's certainly going to lead to a much more interesting landscape once we head into 2014 and the big hits like Halo and Titanfall start dropping. I think the mainstream media is going to be an interesting sector to keep an eye on. Especially when both companies kick off their advertising campaigns in full before launch.

a critical factor is time. Can they get up a decent head of steam quickly enough now - they've clearly been slowed down by the PR shitfest they created back in May/June. If they aren't careful Sony will create momentum that will be difficult to fight back against.

Before the MS debacle, they'd have been in a fairly strong brand awareness position, and even with their pricing and lower power, they may have done well out of the gate. People would have considered the Xbox despite some of the practical negatives.

Now, they're coming from a negative consumer position, lower power, higher price. So even if they eventually undo the negative feelings around the Xbox, I think people are more likely to consider the higher price and lack of power than they would have before - the negativity will be less easy to shrug off. I think they'll have an uphill struggle
 
You know something is wrong when we start to make our purchasing decision on things like PR as opposed to you know.. Games, Hardware and online features.

I wonder how many Sony and MS insiders we have posting on here trying to dissuade hearts and minds?
 
You know something is wrong when we start to make our purchasing decision on things like PR as opposed to you know.. Games, Hardware and online features.

I wonder how many Sony and MS insiders we have posting on here trying to dissuade hearts and minds?

This guy...

I disagree

Xbox One is still $100 more expensive
Gold is still $10 more expensive
There is a paywall behind basic features
The system is weaker
Still haven't seen a must have Kinect game
Network and OS features seem to be on parity now where as last gen PS3 was clearly terrible
Killer Instinct isn't a full game, with only 6-8 characters, Ryse looks like shit, Dead Rising looks terrible.
There is no Instant Game Collection alternative, whee as with PS4 there is a ton of free shot such as Drive Club PSN+ Edition, Re0gun, Don't Starve, Secret Ponchos, Outlast and even F2P games like Planetside 2, Blacksite Retribution, DC Universe, Warframe, War Thunder.
 
This junior sees a massively pro-Xbone flood of newly minted juniors. By itself it's not completely damning, but boy is it smokey in here.

That may had to do that between the Xbox One reveal and the month of E3, everyone that said something positive about it was considered a Shill. A junior that also happened to be an Xbox fanboys would need to keep shut In order to avoid a banning.

Now that the smoke had cleared, lots of 180, great exclusives etc... The console had more goodwill so you can talk positive about it more freely.
 
There's not much arguing against most things you said. Most of them are factual or based on factual evidence so I think you have a very grounded perspective of things. However, I think it's a bit wrong for you to phrase things in the way you did in that last quote.

The way you put it makes it seem like the media and community backlash against Microsoft's DRM and anti-consumer measures are a bad thing that only led to Sony being hurt in the process and I have to disagree.

Before the backlash Microsoft was in an equally strong position as Sony entering this console generation, in terms of hardware sales both consoles have a strong position in the living room and I honestly have to question how many actual working 360's are in people's houses compared to how many PS3's, given how unreliable their initial units were and how many 360 owners had to purchase multiple units over the years. This is certainly a problem that is more common on Microsoft's side than Sony, but that is besides the point.

The point I'm trying to make is that the media backlash put Sony in a stronger PR position and led to a better product for consumers by Microsoft. Microsoft proved to be able to listen and respond rapidly to consumers demands, which in itself is a positive thing, but it also let to the PS4 capture of a lot of mindshare and appreciation. Most reports we've seen so far seem to suggest that the PS4 will have a stronger launch. It remains to be seen if that will actually become true, but I think the backlash against MS didn't hurt Sony, it in fact gave them a "head start" in a sen

If Microsoft remains strong in this console generation and Sony has to continue aggressively push out quality software at a steady pace it will only lead to great things for consumers.

I think his point on this, which i tend to agree with, is Sony got a short term PR gain at the expense of getting long term competition. MS had all their policies spread eagle and Xbob One in full DRM glory. Released as is it would have fell hard and been nigh unrecoverable for them. Would it have created a lazy Sony with competition? Possibly, but just because MS would fall hard with Xbox One as it was doesnt mean they would have given up.

Now what you have is to me a much more dangerous situation for consumer rights and DRM. Anyone who thinks this was a crushing blow to DRM and made MS shelve their plans indefinitely are being naive. This puts MS in the position they are best at, sliding stuff in through gradual updates, leading consumers with the carrot on the stick style. This gen didnt end the way it began, it all started with horse armor and "not taking from silver members but enhancing gold members" With the way consumers are this is worse because they will gladly give out their rights and freedoms over time as shown this gen.
 
You know something is wrong when we start to make our purchasing decision on things like PR as opposed to you know.. Games, Hardware and online features.

I wonder how many Sony and MS insiders we have posting on here trying to dissuade hearts and minds?
Crazy times we live in.

This guy...

He's an insider? News to me but this isn't the thread for that.

That comment way up there reads like political slander campaigns. Something tells me he has no ambition to ever own a PS4. Best to ignore that fanatical loyalist.
 
You know something is wrong when we start to make our purchasing decision on things like PR as opposed to you know.. Games, Hardware and online features.

I wonder how many Sony and MS insiders we have posting on here trying to dissuade hearts and minds?

They don't need to be insiders when the fanboys do such a good job. I've seen one at work in real life and it was excruciating watching him trying to sway an X1 fan to buy a PS4.
 
I know we talk crap about kinect and tv/sports but if this hits the casual market xboxone could pull a Wii and be huge. I think once Xbox hits 10mil M$ will release a $299 Xbox one with $20/month gold sub. Sign a soccer fantasy deal and they should be onto a winner.

Momentum is key too, Xbox has titanfall, project spark and kinect sports coming out q1 14. So no game drought like wiiU.

$500 $500 $500 $500 $500

Sorry not a wii.

no causal buys $500 machine for fantasy soccer/football. Kinect is known now, there is nothing new about it either for casuals.
 
That may had to do that between the Xbox One reveal and the month of E3, everyone that said something positive about it was considered a Shill. A junior that also happened to be an Xbox fanboys would need to keep shut In order to avoid a banning.

Now that the smoke had cleared, lots of 180, great exclusives etc... The console had more goodwill so you can talk positive about it more freely.

That doesn't explain the 'newly minted' aspect.

Don't get me wrong - I'll probably pick up an Xbox One in a couple years because, hey - more gamez - but I still find it really odd that Microsoft could have simply owned Video Games and found every way possible to step on its own wang at the Sunday Cordial.
 
I think his point on this, which i tend to agree with, is Sony got a short term PR gain at the expense of getting long term competition. MS had all their policies spread eagle and Xbob One in full DRM glory. Released as is it would have fell hard and been nigh unrecoverable for them. Would it have created a lazy Sony with competition? Possibly, but just because MS would fall hard with Xbox One as it was doesnt mean they would have given up.

Now what you have is to me a much more dangerous situation for consumer rights and DRM. Anyone who thinks this was a crushing blow to DRM and made MS shelve their plans indefinitely are being naive. This puts MS in the position they are best at, sliding stuff in through gradual updates, leading consumers with the carrot on the stick style. This gen didnt end the way it began, it all started with horse armor and "not taking from silver members but enhancing gold members" With the way consumers are this is worse because they will gladly give out their rights and freedoms over time as shown this gen.

All companies do that though, its normal business practice. Compare the launch PS3 to the latest one, how many features were gradually lost.
 
Sony has a bigger launch lineup and more diverse range of games.

Indie games amirite?

"
Here are some statistics about Xbox One’s line-up of announced games:
38% of titles are exclusive to Xbox One
37% of titles are brand-new IP
44% of titles will include either timed or exclusive content to Xbox One
Microsoft exclusive titles received 272 award nominations and 111 wins at E3 2013.
Xbox One titles earned 10 Game Critics Awards, with Xbox platform exclusive “Titanfall” taking home a record-breaking 6 awards, including “Best of Show.”
"

Xbox 360 launched with some good exclusives. Then as the gen went on they closed the studios down.

Not even remotely close to all of sony studios closing this gen.

.
 
I disagree

Xbox One is still $100 more expensive
Gold is still $10 more expensive
There is a paywall behind basic features
The system is weaker
Still haven't seen a must have Kinect game
Network and OS features seem to be on parity now where as last gen PS3 was clearly terrible
Killer Instinct isn't a full game, with only 6-8 characters, Ryse looks like shit, Dead Rising looks terrible.
There is no Instant Game Collection alternative, whee as with PS4 there is a ton of free shot such as Drive Club PSN+ Edition, Re0gun, Don't Starve, Secret Ponchos, Outlast and even F2P games like Planetside 2, Blacksite Retribution, DC Universe, Warframe, War Thunder.
This guy...
you dont need to be an insider to know what is right

and no doubt ms has the largest number of shills
 
Indie games amirite?

"
Here are some statistics about Xbox One’s line-up of announced games:
38% of titles are exclusive to Xbox One
37% of titles are brand-new IP
44% of titles will include either timed or exclusive content to Xbox One
Microsoft exclusive titles received 272 award nominations and 111 wins at E3 2013.
Xbox One titles earned 10 Game Critics Awards, with Xbox platform exclusive “Titanfall” taking home a record-breaking 6 awards, including “Best of Show.”
"





.

platform exclusive eh... dint realize PC and 360 weren't a platform

let's see how many then are console exclusive for ps4?

Wonder if KI/project spark/crimson dragon are also considered "indie" games
 
They don't need to be insiders when the fanboys do such a good job. I've seen one at work in real life and it was excruciating watching him trying to sway an X1 fan to buy a PS4.
this also happened during ps360 era where people went to buy ps3 were told to get a 360 instead
 
I’m going to break this down into each segment of text you bolded.

Sony posted their first profit in five years this last quarter, thanks mostly to a weakened yen and the Xpheria line which helped rebound their smartphone division. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/b...ounces-370-million-quarterly-profit.html?_r=0

The PS3 destroyed everything the PS2 had built for Sony right out of the gate. Why the massive losses? They spent a major amount on R&D and sold the console at a tremendous loss. Source: http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

Not to mention their failures over the last few years that devalued their stock and led to a massive restructuring. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/t...behind-in-the-tech-parade.html?pagewanted=all

A massive restructuring that cost 10,000 people their jobs. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/sony-layoffs_n_1420229.html

More job cuts followed in the following months. But the restructuring hasn’t done a whole lot besides drain money from their profitable insurance, film, and music divisions to bolster their failing divisions. Their propriety technology is so minuscule that they have few worthwhile patents they could liquidate. If you’d like to read Sony’s quarterly report, here you go. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/13q1_sony.pdf

They’ve continued to depreciate in value, and if Daniel Loebe has his way Sony won’t be operating as poorly as they have been in recent years. But they initially rejected Loebe’s proposal. At a 7% stake in the company, and likely amassing more each day, he’ll sway big shareholders into accepting his proposal eventually. The company is trying to rebound from the horrible state they've fallen into, but it’s going to take years of steady profits from wise investments to pull this company from the gutter.

----

I’m not sure why you even bolded this point since it’s blatantly obvious if you take into account the scale of Microsoft. They generate $20 BILLION in excess cash each year and they’re sitting on over $50 billion of working capital. They have a tremendous amount of money to spend, and with Ballmer retiring this excess cash will likely be more accessible to take more risk on innovations rather than just acquiring pre-established companies. Source: http://thebusinessferret.com/microsoft-financial-analysis-destroying-value-with-too-much-cash/

We also have the Azure network to take into account, which is worth billions of dollars and embodies an infrastructure Sony does not have the cash to compete with. These servers are a tremendous asset to developers, and to act as though they won’t make a difference is arrogant. I don’t think I need a source as its quite obvious Microsoft has secured numerous high profile third party exclusives, as well as investing a lot of money in in-house studios. The acquisition of exclusive and timed-exclusive DLC is also an asset people seem to try to pass off as miniscule. But for the CoD or FIFA fans who only have one offering each year then many of them will be swayed by DLC incentives.

As for the NFL deal, that was announced alongside the unveiling of the Xbox One. Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/May13/05-21NFLPR.aspx
Now tell me, why wouldn't the “Official Game Console of the NFL” not be advertised during NFL games? The partnership could lead to Sony being unable to advertise their system during NFL games completely. Considering the substantial ratings NFL games bring in: http://www.adweek.com/news/television/nfl-caps-another-powerhouse-season-146305 ...I would say it’s safe to assume this is a pretty big deal. And a Superbowl spot? 100+ million people watching.

----

Why the hell did you bold this one? You’re in a topic that’s proving this point. If you click on it and even read the first sentence you’ll see the link to an earlier article which embodied one of the most scathing criticisms that Microsoft was receiving. This isn’t the first article to make the claim that the tides are turning. The E3 fallout was brutal, yet the Gamescom coverage has been optimistic. Further inevitable announcements will likely lead to even more positive press coverage until the media won’t be so slanted in one direction.

----

This has been a big assumption for some time, bolstered by other sources that have given more credibility to it. Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Sony-PS4-Camera-Price-Xbox-One-Comparison,23278.html

Why would the camera have been showed boldly alongside the system when it was unveiled? It implied it would be in the box. The camera retails now at $60. What was their likely intent? Considering the system was aimed at minimizing losses and hopefully turning a profit, the camera add-in bumping the cost up to $499 would have been a no brainer. There’s nothing in there that’s tremendously costly, meaning it probably cost Sony under $25 to produce which a likely wholesale value of $40-$45. It would have been a smart decision if Microsoft was planning to launch at $599.

How could they possibly look good if they launched at the same price AND implemented a pay wall system in a single conference? They couldn’t, so they went with the undercutting marketing strategy which they did to compete with the Saturn years before. Boxing the pay wall between the astonishing applause of a $100 price different and the blatant pandering of their DRM-less console was brilliant, at the time at least. Market tactics have a lot of psychology behind them, and Sony played their cards right with that one, but at what cost to them? The hardware itself looks to be making a profit thanks to the overall cost of materials. Patcher estimate their product cost at $325 with an estimated profit at wholesale of $50.

But that’s not taking into account R&D costs and massive amounts of money they’ll be forced to sink into marketing this thing. Sony said they won’t incur as severe losses as they did selling the PS3, but they didn’t say it would be profitable, something you’d figure they would have been touting to investors.
---
The Sega Saturn launched at $399, and was forced out the door early. While initial estimates thought the PSX would launch at $399 as well, Sony made the announcement that they’d be selling their system at only $299. Not entirely Sony’s fault for the failures of the Saturn, but it certainly didn’t help. It’s quite a common practice to undercut the competition, so why you think Sony would be above such a thing doesn't show a whole lot of critical thinking on your part.

Both companies WILL SEE LOSSES. Sony isn't going to turn a profit for some time, and neither will Microsoft. I think I laid out enough previous evidence to make this apparent enough, and considering the Wii U is selling at a loss with inferior technology and almost no marketing budget then that’s not a good sign for the more costly hardware. As far as it being less detrimental to Microsoft, again, compare the companies as a whole and you will see any losses the games division incurs is minimal. With continued Live subscriptions and lowering costs of the 360 hardware then that will also do a tremendous amount to offset losses generated by the Xbox One. The PS3 still has life in it, but their PS+ numbers are meager when compared to XBL subscribers.
---
Already addressed this earlier. The PS3 was a financial burden for years. The PS3 didn’t see a profit until 2010. Source: http://kotaku.com/5575994/after-nearly-four-years-the-ps3-finally-turns-a-profit

The games division has been slipping recently again and unless PS4 sales are absolutely stellar than this system will incur losses for some time. It wasn’t just the PS3 that hurt the electronics division. Poor management, a tremendous lack of innovation, and a massive drop in demand for Sony electronics buried the division under the weight of its previous success.
---
Considering the sales numbers for all the major shooter franchises, I’m pretty sure this holds a lot of truth to it. I think your ridiculous bias and your inability to comprehend that my previous post had a lot of data and logical assumptions when data was lacking. And again, why is this bolded? Why would a single person’s view on an entire genre of games negate their overall success? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But don’t try to me the sky is yellow when even the most simple person would know it’s blue.
---
I don’t think you want to get in a quote war because you have no actual argument and are leaning on your bias and the reinforcement of others to try to formulate some poorly thought out argument against me. The PS4 could be a tremendous success, but the fact of the matter is Sony needs more than the success of the PS4 to dig them out of the last few crippling years, and because of the situation they’re in, it would be irresponsible of them to try to compete with Microsoft in terms of the losses they’re willing to accumulate to win.

And you’re really going to try to jab at it being my first post? I wasn't under the impression your time wasted on a forum qualified you to disprove an argument by bolding text. For further readings I’d recommend Google to do your own research on crap you seem to have no comprehension of. 5,985th post as well? Goddamn.

TL;DR: You should probably spend more time reading instead of being a dick.



Yes, look at Halo. Halo, a game that almost singlehandedly ensured the original Xbox wouldn't fail in a market where they had zero footing in an industry dominated by two well entrenched competitors. The 360 thus far has sold three times as many units as the original Xbox now. I think you greatly underestimate the power of an excellent game that’s marketed incredibly well. Considering the buzz it’s already generating, it could certainly be the Xbox One’s saving grace. Time will tell, but I wouldn't rule it out.



Price will ultimately mean little, especially if Microsoft continues to try to offset the price difference through further incentives. People are putting too much weight on the price difference. The Wii U is still struggle even at the lower price. And as I said originally, overall sales really don’t mean that much unless there’s a significant difference. It’s the attach rate and pay wall subscribers that will determine how successful these consoles are at the end of the day. As far as Titanfall goes, keep in mind the 360 version is being developed by an outside entity, and Microsoft isn’t going to push the 360 version in their marketing campaign nearly as hard as they will the Xbox One version. The point of the exclusivity is to push Xbox One sales. People also like to bring up the PC version, but the reality is most people don’t own a $1,000+ gaming rig.

The PS4 will almost certainly do better in most European territories. But the fact of the matter is Europe isn’t as big of a territory as North America, and if Microsoft can dig into either territory and not give any ground elsewhere then it is possible. And again, the 360 has a higher attach rate and a very large paid subscriber base. Having less than a million console advantage isn’t a true measurement of financial success. If you’re not generating as much money and sell as many games as your competitor than it’s nothing more than a statistic to wave in front of the people who take things at face value. And the trends in one generation do not set the trends in the next, as history has shown. Sony rebounded from an embarrassing pricing model with the PS3, so I’m not sure how people believe this has solidified Microsoft’s position this generation. And outside of a lower price and a marginal advantage in power I feel don’t see any significant advantage you claim the PS4 to have. I think Sony's smug marketing tactics and the media's outright hatred for Microsoft will do more to hurt Sony because it forced Microsoft into a corner and led to a more customer oriented policies and substantial new investments.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable backlash I'm about to receive.

Quoting this for the eventual crow that will be eaten.
 
Indie games amirite?

"
Here are some statistics about Xbox One’s line-up of announced games:
38% of titles are exclusive to Xbox One
37% of titles are brand-new IP
44% of titles will include either timed or exclusive content to Xbox One
Microsoft exclusive titles received 272 award nominations and 111 wins at E3 2013.
Xbox One titles earned 10 Game Critics Awards, with Xbox platform exclusive “Titanfall” taking home a record-breaking 6 awards, including “Best of Show.”
"





.

Thread is veering off into the OT. I don't even know why I came in here since I was skimming for good and relevant conversation to this Xbone related news.
 
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