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[Skellig Gra]

It only "doesn't accomplish anything" if the standards for accomplishment are being set by stubborn white people who will only agree to progress on their terms and their terms alone, terms that demand the absolving of their (barely) guilty conscience before any work can be done.

Basically "nothing will get done if you keep doing it that way" only works as an assessment if you're inherently refusing to do anything on your end of the deal.

If what's stopping you from doing anything on your part is that you're simply too offended by the idea of "white fragility" even minutely applying specifically to you to take that step forward to change things about your day-to-day life for the positive, then "nothing will get done" because you're not fuckin' doing anything.

It's not preaching to the choir because there are plenty of people out there who would not consider themselves racist but still fall into the fragility traps. This thread is a good example, considering GAF is mostly liberal/progressive and yet we've had numerous posts exemplifying white fragility.

Maybe, I can't really say I have a better solution but I've always believed the best way to get through to people about this stuff is to build empathy to those who lack the privileges that you enjoy.

what choir?

The people who already acknowledge that institutional racism is a big problem.

 

[Dash27]

"Why do conversations about race fall apart when we have them with white people?"

In my town there are quite a lot of conversations involve race and diversity, mostly including white people. It goes perfectly fine so long as everyone agrees with white privilege and institutional racism and whatever other buzz words are out there at the moment. I haven't been to a dinner party in a few months so I'm sure there are new things.

Where it breaks down is when there is any disagreement. And the disagreement isn't between whoever "we" are and white people. It's on political lines or specific takes on issues. Accepted views and non accepted views clash.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

If you're White, and you truly want to be an ally to social change.

You can start by listening to Tim Wise

That's a guy who gets it. Who understands.

All those other talking points are bullshit. Tim Wise will always be a hero in my eyes.

Good recommendation, quoting for posterity.

Still can't find the lie

 

[Messofanego]

We have alot of the same problems over here. When I grew up for example, I for the longest time thought that racism only existed in the USA, thanks to angled news and how everything was angled. We were told that American soldiers going over here had to be told that blacks in Europe have rights, and you couldn't treat them like back home if you met them.

So, yeah, it's a white systemic issue/error in modern society. Meanwhile, whilst I thought this, we safely ignored our Sami being dragged off to white school from their families to be taught how not to be Sami (indigenous folk group) in order for them to properly become good white citizens.. in modern times.

Because, well, they are kinda white looking so they can pass as such, if they only give up their identity and heritage.

There is definitely some blindsides to our own countries in terms of racism that is swept under the rug. Even the very tolerant Canada has its ugly history with first nations people.

Speaking of Sami, there is an upcoming film SAMI BLOOD which will be shown at film festivals. Looks interesting.

https://youtu.be/0zpt2yf0nCM

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Maybe, I can't really say I have a better solution but I've always believed the best way to get through to people about this stuff is to build empathy to those who lack the privileges that you enjoy.

So the question becomes then how minimal is your empathy that you can't overlook phrases like White Fragility even if they only very minimally apply to you in order to reach out and make those connections and build with the people you're saying you want to build with?

This goes back to the idea that you're telling people how to build empathy with you while simultaneously withholding it under condition of having your conscience massaged first.

If you're White, and you truly want to be an ally to social change.

You can start by listening to Tim Wise

That's a guy who gets it. Who understands.

Cut this in half, give the script to RLM or Angry Joe, and add a bunch of sophomoric jokes to it. NOW we're getting penetration into the demographics we need to come around on this.

 

[HellforLeather]

Why would you want to disagree with it?

if there's a disinterest in discussing anything, you'd think it'd come via the people so easily steered away that the mere suggestion members of their race are fragile when it comes to owning any fractional share of complicity in the way things are, is enough to shut them down.

I disagree with it as a phrase for the same reason I disagree with concepts like "violent blacks". Its a purposefully antagonizing language that already paints the conversation in a certain light. You say that you shouldnt be antagonized by it because its not referring to all people of that race/ethnicity, etc. But wouldnt you classify someone saying "violent blacks" as inherently inciteful language despite that there are some black people that are violent?

What? Who the fuck are you to know what "nobody" wants to seriously discuss when you don't even understand the issue enough to get beyond the semantics of it.

Edit:

I don't mean to sound upset but I hate the presumption, you're being incredibly intellectually lazy.

See above, its an inherently unhelpful phrase in creating conversation. Yes, there are some people who shut down about race and draw false equivalencies but Ive seen it used as a phrase to shut down any sort of disagreement on the premise of a conversation. Some people in this topic have used it as an attempt to shut down disagreements. The article in the OP used it as a shut down as well. Push back on the tweet about white genocide seems pretty justified to me; I cant imaging any other scenario with any other race where this wouldnt cause a shit storm.

It's a term used to describe a phenomina. If you dont believe in it then all you have to do is provide some sources and reasoning amd then we can go from there. But I mean come on, aint nobody gonna do that because bitching about the term always inherently comes from trying to avoid talking about the overarching concept of racism.

Im not saying that this doesnt happen but its always the person making the claims responsibility to prove their claim. I know you guys think Im just playing semantics but the way you frame conversations matter....a lot. It doesnt help that there seems to be a lot of people, including the author of this article that decide to lob these terms like bombs in order to justify their claims.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I disagree with it as a phrase for the same reason I disagree with concepts like "violent blacks".

But this is a false equivalency. It's pretty much ridiculous on the face of it.

Even if I were to take the suggestion at face value, it demands I hold white people getting their feelings hurt at the word "Fragile" in a conversation, at the same level as black people being literally demonized by systemic racism from its state and federal governments.

I disagree with that notion entirely. There's no reality to back it up, and the conversation is not occurring in a vaccuum wherein that reality could be given any weight, either.

 

[Secret Fawful]

Cut this in half, give the script to RLM or Angry Joe, and add a bunch of sophomoric jokes to it. NOW we're getting penetration into the demographics we need to come around on this.

You mean people who can't understand it in the first place? That's the biggest example of the blind leading the blind I've ever heard, man. lol

 

[cdyhybrid]

Should come up with a new term then because to most people calling something fragile is an insult or at the very least has extreme negative connotations.

That term will just end up drawing the same reaction.

The vocabulary used isn't the issue. White America as a whole being uncomfortable with/unwilling to acknowledge the racist history of this country is.

 

[Frozenprince]

Cut this in half, give the script to RLM or Angry Joe, and add a bunch of sophomoric jokes to it. NOW we're getting penetration into the demographics we need to come around on this.

All we need to do to solve racism is make equality into dick jokes.

It's sad that you're actually kinda right.

 

[marrec]

Also, here we are impatiently discussing the validity of the term "white fragility" when the basis of the article in the OP is "why conversations w/ white people fall apart" is being completely ignored for semantic rhetoric.

Which, I'm sure as has been pointed out before, is pretty hilarious.

 

[Dai101]

Should come up with a new term then because to most people calling something fragile is an insult or at the very least has extreme negative connotations.

How about.. white saviors?

 

[Frozenprince]

Learning some things from this thread.

 

[marrec]

How about.. white saviors?

Then our white guilt will kick in and we'll get offended at the patronizing tone.

 

[commedieu]

Learning some things from this thread.

.

 

[LosDaddie]

Who do you think has it coming?

Who or what did you want to be the targets of the riots you wanted people to engage in?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You mean people who can't understand it in the first place? That's the biggest example of the blind leading the blind I've ever heard, man. lol

I dunno, fundraise it. Kickstart it. "You make this thing you don't really believe in very much—you know, like a lot of the videos on your channel—and in return we'll give you the cash to make some weird z-grade shortfilm about mailman cannibals with chainsaw dicks or something."
"Okay, so long as you don't make me put more black people and women in it than I want to."
"Sure."
"Corporations always pushing that forced diversity."
"I know."
"I try to tell them! They don't listen! They only want Plinkett."
"It's hard, I'm sure."

 

[cdyhybrid]

"White people aren't fragile guys, you just need to frame discussions of race in a way that makes us feel good"

 

[HallucinatingElvis]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

 

[The Kree]

Also, here we are impatiently discussing the validity of the term "white fragility" when the basis of the article in the OP is "why conversations w/ white people fall apart" is being completely ignored for semantic rhetoric.

Which, I'm sure as has been pointed out before, is pretty hilarious.

Not only is it hilarious, it's intentional.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Then our white guilt will kick in and we'll get offended at the patronizing tone.

White Man's Burden™

Into

White Flight™

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

Lol, I wish racism was limited to just namecalling. Wouldn't actually mean anything then.

 

[Frozenprince]

Not only is it hilarious, it's intentional.

Every time it always turns into an argument over semantics instead of... well...

Systemic racism.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

"Bard! I've spotted Smaug's weakness! There, on his belly!"

 

[deli2000]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

How can one contradict oneself within the same sentence?

 

[Messofanego]

All we need to do to solve racism is make equality into dick jokes.

It's sad that you're actually kinda right.

#DicksOutForEquality

 

[marrec]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

I like being white too! Nobody here is telling you to feel bad about being white.

Buuut....

You say there's nothing fragile about you, yet you couch your language in defensiveness?

"Apparently" it serves you well? Are you so fragile that you cannot admit to the reality of white privilege?

Are you so fragile that you deflect any criticism as "racism" because of your "whiteness"?

 

[Skellig Gra]

How about.. white saviors?

Nah

 

[Frozenprince]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

Oh sweet summer child.

 

[Htown]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

oh lord

 

[Infinite]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

happy 4 u fam

 

[marrec]

Oh sweet summer child.

oh lord

Careful y'all, you might hurt their feelings.

 

[Nepenthe]

Careful y'all, you might hurt their feelings.

But there's nothing fragile about him.

 

[Skellig Gra]

So the question becomes then how minimal is your empathy that you can't overlook phrases like White Fragility even if they only very minimally apply to you in order to reach out and make those connections and build with the people you're saying you want to build with?

This goes back to the idea that you're telling people how to build empathy with you while simultaneously withholding it under condition of having your conscience massaged first.

I guess I'm more talking about the people who don't recognize institutional racism to begin with because they have no exposure to black people in general. Need to find some sort of common ground or I don't think it will ever work.

 

[The Kree]

Who or what did you want to be the targets of the riots you wanted people to engage in?

Before I answer, I want to point out that I think it's hilarious that wrote 200-something words telling snowflakes to get over it and you wanna have a sidebar about just one of those words.

I don't like violence. I don't want violence. But I accept that it's inevitable. I even accept that it's sometimes necessary. So, when it happens, I hope that it's directed towards anyone who stands in the way of the good. And I do not believe violence necessarily negates the good that it fights for.

I know you could have worked this answer out for yourself though.

 

[rjinaz]

happy 4 u fam

Lol.

Yeah I'm White too, and it's pretty great! But yes we are quite the privileged bunch make no mistake about it. We often don't care about the struggles of others and don't often care, because we have it so good. That's the problem.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I guess I'm more talking about the people who don't recognize institutional racism to begin with because they have no exposure to black people in general. Need to find some sort of common ground or I don't think it will ever work.

But this still presumes that those white people shouldn't have to do anything at all. None of the lifting (heavy or otherwise) is assigned to them. They bear zero responsibility for their part in the effort to build in that scenario.

Which is inherently unfair, yunno? It immediately lets off the hook the people unwilling to step outside of themselves for even a second to entertain other people's experiences, and assigns all the weight for that failure to the minorities on the other side of the discussion.

 

[Enzom21]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

Quite the post history...

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Im not saying that this doesnt happen but its always the person making the claims responsibility to prove their claim.

You want boat loads of articles from pHD level professors on the topic? Cause like we could do that if you want but why bother if your beef isnt actually about whether it exists or not?

I know you guys think Im just playing semantics but the way you frame conversations matter....a lot.

I dunno about you but frankly when people tell me "how you phrase it matters" I think back to the millions of different ways I have explained it in conversations and go "no it really doesn't".

Last fucking week I had a friend proudly proclaim "sorry gotdatmoney, Inwould never date a black girl" to which i was like "A) why the fuck are you so proud about that B) why the fuck are you telling me, the guy with a black sister this and C) what possible reason do you even have". Their response? "They intimidate me"

Motherfucker what? This is the type of bile I am suppose to gently engage? (And mind you I did not use any word like white fragility, white privelege, tears blah blah blah) but the second I said, "you know that attitude about black people being intimidating simply because we are.black is what gets us killed, gets us denied from jobs, gets us profiled right?" The barriers went up.

It doesnt help that there seems to be a lot of people, including the author of this article that decide to lob these terms like bombs in order to justify their claims.

What you dont really get is that no amount of word vomit and coddling is going to make these people get it. You think it will, but if it was that simple this issue would be solved long ago.

 

[Skellig Gra]

But this still presumes that those white people shouldn't have to do anything at all. None of the lifting (heavy or otherwise) is assigned to them. They bear zero responsibility for their part in the effort to build in that scenario.

Which is inherently unfair, yunno? It immediately lets off the hook the people unwilling to step outside of themselves for even a second to entertain other people's experiences, and assigns all the weight for that failure to the minorities on the other side of the discussion.

I get you. It's definitely unfair, and it sucks.

 

[HellforLeather]

But this is a false equivalency. It's pretty much ridiculous on the face of it.

Even if I were to take the suggestion at face value, it demands I hold white people getting their feelings hurt at the word "Fragile" in a conversation, at the same level as black people being literally demonized by systemic racism from its state and federal governments.

I disagree with that notion entirely. There's no reality to back it up, and the conversation is not occurring in a vaccuum wherein that reality could be given any weight, either.

I wasnt claiming that these were on equal grounds but just as an example of using a blanket term and how they are inherently inciteful and tarnish conversation before it begins.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I wasnt claiming that these were on equal grounds but just as an example of using a blanket term and how they are inherently inciteful and tarnish conversation before it begins.

That example only works if they're on equal ground, though. Otherwise it's a completely broken example.

Which it is.

I get you. It's definitely unfair, and it sucks.

Yup. It really only gets fixed when more and more white people basically get over these comparatively teensy L's they have to hold in that scenario, and start working to the good in their own sphere of influence despite whatever minor sting they might feel at not having their ego stroked for merely showing up in the first place.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I've been lurking in this thread a lot and trying to decide on whether this whole argument about generalizing white people is valid.

Thinking about it, I don't think it is.

The term white fragility, doesn't automatically apply to all white people, in the same way that police brutality doesn't refer to every single police officer. In the same way that white supremacy doesn't refer to every white person. In the same way that

White supremacy refers to white people who are supremacists.

Police brutality refers to those of the police who brutalize..

Right wing/left wing bigotry refers to sections of those entities that are bigoted.

White fragility refers to white people who are fragile regarding the relevant topic?

And with that, this entire thread being overtaken with people feeling personally attacked by a phrase that doesn't actually refer to them unless they decide it does, maybe is actually a representation of this topic?

I mean....just look:

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

....at this right here.....

 

[cdyhybrid]

I've been lurking in this thread a lot and trying to decide on whether this whole argument about generalizing white people is valid.

Thinking about it, I don't think it is.

The term white fragility, doesn't automatically apply to all white people, in the same way that police brutality doesn't refer to every single police officer. In the same way that white supremacy doesn't refer to every white person. In the same way that

White supremacy refers to white people who are supremacists.

Police brutality refers to those of the police who brutalize..

Right wing/left wing bigotry refers to sections of those entities that are bigoted.

White fragility refers to white people who are fragile regarding the relevant topic?

And with that, this entire thread being overtaken with people feeling personally attacked by a phrase that doesn't actually refer to them unless they decide it does, maybe is actually a representation of this topic?

You're straight up wrong about a lot of this, but especially the bolded. These things are systemic issues, not the actions of a group of individuals.

 

[Sunster]

The timing was so grimly perfect, too. Throughout the entirety of the BLM movement we had all these white moderates going on about how BLM needs to stop being so radical, start taking Dr. King's example (lol), protest "respectfully," whatever the fuck that means...

And this dude takes a knee and it ends up producing a bigger ball of rage than any broken CVS window or theoretical grandma in an ambulance blocked from getting to the hospital ever did.

Don't be seen. Don't be heard. That's what these supposed moderates really want.

Spoiler

Unrelated point, but the small hairs on the back of my neck stand the fuck up whenever someone self-describes as a moderate. Always a good shorthand for someone with some real fucked up beliefs in their back pockets.

as if they would have supported Dr King back then. The white moderates who think like this and always have.
1960's

2015 or 2016

50 years from now when BLM is in the history books those same people will say they were on the front lines hand in hand with them.

 

[Secret Fawful]

I had to acknowledge my fragility as a white Hispanic years ago to be able to start getting informed and fighting back against the constant racism around me in everyday life. It's not a question of if; it's necessary. You have to acknowledge the reality of this world to begin working on improving and informing yourself and rejecting racism. I want to be a better person, and I can't do that if I'm catching feelings all the time.

If you can't work past yourself and your ego, you aren't willing to have these conversations and do better. White people aren't the priority in discussions of race. Step back, be quiet, and learn to listen.

If you're claiming that acknowledging the problems white people have when they join these discussions is counter-productive to the discussion, then you aren't willing to have a real discussion in the first place.

I dunno, fundraise it. Kickstart it. "You make this thing you don't really believe in very much—you know, like a lot of the videos on your channel—and in return we'll give you the cash to make some weird z-grade shortfilm about mailman cannibals with chainsaw dicks or something."
"Okay, so long as you don't make me put more black people and women in it than I want to."
"Sure."
"Corporations always pushing that forced diversity."
"I know."
"I try to tell them! They don't listen! They only want Plinkett."
"It's hard, I'm sure."

That'd just get them to make the passive-aggressive "fuck diversity" video Mike Stoklasa would act out through his most racist caricature: Mike Stoklasa.

 

[Frozenprince]

The choir keeps getting offended when you tell them they're constantly hitting the wrong notes.

"No, you're just not listening right" responds the choir.

 

[The Salt Life]

Lol.

Yeah I'm White too, and it's pretty great! But yes we are quite the privileged bunch make no mistake about it. We often don't care about the struggles of others and don't often care, because we have it so good. That's the problem.

What exactly are we supposed to do? Listen to people talk about shit I already know? It's not that I don't care about issues of others in this country, but in this moment in time, I need to get myself tight before I can worry about anyone else. I'll still call out racist behavior because I love confrontation with ignorant people. Honestly I couldn't even point you in the right direction to get change though, especially the change people want.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The choir keeps getting offended when you tell them they're constantly hitting the wrong notes.

"No, you're just not listening right" responds the choir.

This is good

 

[HellforLeather]

That example only works if they're on equal ground, though. Otherwise it's a completely broken example.

Which it is.

Then feel free to insert your negative stereotype of choice then? Most people's responses to negative blanket statements are negative.

 

[marrec]

I've been lurking in this thread a lot and trying to decide on whether this whole argument about generalizing white people is valid.

Thinking about it, I don't think it is.

The term white fragility, doesn't automatically apply to all white people, in the same way that police brutality doesn't refer to every single police officer. In the same way that white supremacy doesn't refer to every white person. In the same way that

White supremacy refers to white people who are supremacists.

Police brutality refers to those of the police who brutalize..

Right wing/left wing bigotry refers to sections of those entities that are bigoted.

White fragility refers to white people who are fragile regarding the relevant topic?

And with that, this entire thread being overtaken with people feeling personally attacked by a phrase that doesn't actually refer to them unless they decide it does, maybe is actually a representation of this topic?

I understand why you would feel that way, however it's simply not how these things work in practice.

White supremacy is a government institution that permeates our lives from birth to death. White people cannot escape it anymore than Black people can.

Police brutality is similar. If we try to narrow down specific instances of police brutality we would be ignoring the forest for the trees. Police aren't brutal because some of them are animals, police are brutal because the very institution supports brutality.

And, more importantly for this discussion, white fragility is the same. We as white people cannot escape it anymore than we can escape our egos. White fragility is intrinsically tied to White supremacy, they follow from each other.

These aren't "generalizations" these are the reality of our racism.