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[Zaru]

and don't want to hear about the horrors and trials that other people live through on a day to day basis.

Sure they don't. Now... do YOU? Do most people?
Do disadvantaged minorities in rich first world nations want to hear about those things in relation to the vast majority of the world's population that is actually below them on the privilege totem pole?
Would they react positively to being told that they've got place of birth privilege or something?

Nah. Most of them are gonna arbitrarily draw the line at nationality so they've got a convenient foundation below them protecting against "first world fragility" or whatever term you wanna call it. They're not gonna go out of their way to improve the lives of those outside their own local bubble beyond what takes minimal effort, if even that. Tell them they benefit from the exploitation of cheap labor and the ignoring of human rights. "Sure that's bad, but I've got my own struggles! I didn't choose to be born here! There's only so much I can do! What do you mean, first worlders? Not ALL of them!"
Sound familiar? It should.

But my point isn't that we should ignore something bad because someone else has it worse aka "but what about the starving children in soandso". I'm not making excuses for the people that are complained about here. Hell no. That wouldn't change anything for the better.
My point is the OPPOSITE. You made it sound like that kind of response is a special attribute of white people in western countries when confronted with their privilege and the disadvantages/discrimination that minorities in their countries face.
It isn't.
My point is, everyone should practice what they preach. What they think white people should be doing, they should probably be doing themselves in other aspects of life, unless they want to be hypocrites. Almost any excuse they make for not doing this is an excuse white people can also use, and will, because it's all relative.

Now I'm curious if this will get any indignant first world fragility (I love this term) driven replies even though all I basically said is "you can keep punching up for all I care but don't forget that there's always someone below you"

 

[Frozenprince]

Then feel free to insert your negative stereotype of choice then? Most people's responses to negative blanket statements are negative.

How is white fragility a stereotype

 

[Psychoward]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

Bruh

 

[GrizzleBoy]

You're straight up wrong about a lot of this, but especially the bolded. These things are systemic issues, not the actions of a group of individuals.

Maybe I used the wrong terminology and should said "supremacist" on that case. Point though, is that even systemic issues, i.e. like "white fragility" does not automatically include every individual, because there are white people out there who just arent "fragile" when having these discussions.

There are white people who are so not fragile, that they will be the ones bringing up the arguments that enduce actual white fragility in others, bringing in the easily anticipated "suffering from white guilt" accusations.

These people are obviously not the norm it seems, but they are surely there.

So you're kind of not really refuting my point even if I phrased it poorly.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Then feel free to insert your negative stereotype of choice then? Most people's responses to negative blanket statements are negative.

And most people's progression as people isn't contingent on blanket statements first being minimized/eliminated before moving forward.

Your entire line of discussion suggests that not only should people withdraw from the effort, but that they're right to, and their failures and shortcomings are now not their fault, but instead the fault of the person who didn't hold their hand gently enough while pointing them towards the better future they claim to want.

 

[Frozenprince]

Sure they don't. Now... do YOU? Do most people?
Do disadvantaged minorities in rich first world nations want to hear about those things in relation to the vast majority of the world's population that is actually below them on the privilege totem pole?
Would they react positively to being told that they've got place of birth privilege or something?

Nah. Most of them are gonna arbitrarily draw the line at nationality so they've got a convenient foundation below them protecting against "first world fragility" or whatever term you wanna call it. They're not gonna go out of their way to improve the lives of those outside their own local bubble beyond what takes minimal effort, if even that. Tell them they benefit from the exploitation of cheap labor and the ignoring of human rights. "Sure that's bad, but I've got my own struggles! I didn't choose to be born here! There's only so much I can do! What do you mean, first worlders? Not ALL of them!"
Sound familiar? It should.

But my point isn't that we should ignore something bad because someone else has it worse aka "but what about the starving children in soandso". I'm not making excuses for the people that are complained about here. Hell no. That wouldn't change anything for the better.
My point is the OPPOSITE. You made it sound like that kind of response is a special attribute of white people in western countries when confronted with their privilege and the disadvantages/discrimination that minorities in their countries face.
It isn't.
My point is, everyone should practice what they preach. What they think white people should be doing, they should probably be doing themselves in other aspects of life, unless they want to be hypocrites. Almost any excuse they make for not doing this is an excuse white people can also use, and will, because it's all relative.

Now I'm curious if this will get any indignant first world fragility (I love this term) driven replies even though all I basically said is "you can keep punching up for all I care but don't forget that there's always someone below you"

But see, you are just trying to deflect and go "but what about the starving kids?". Like... yes, there are always going to be people suffering.

That's not the point.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Then feel free to insert your negative stereotype of choice then? Most people's responses to negative blanket statements are negative.

I wrote up a nice post for you? Gonna respond to it?

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Also, here we are impatiently discussing the validity of the term "white fragility" when the basis of the article in the OP is "why conversations w/ white people fall apart" is being completely ignored for semantic rhetoric.

Which, I'm sure as has been pointed out before, is pretty hilarious.

I mean, the thread is about the difficulty of having conversations about race/sex/etc. Arguing about how best to fix that problem seems like the only productive route for discussion to take.

 

[marrec]

Maybe I used the wrong terminology and should said "supremacist" on that case. Point though, is that even systemic issues, i.e. like "white fragility" does not automatically include every individual.

So you're kind of not really refuting my point even if I phrased it poorly.

Okay but this is, once again, getting into unnecessary weeds of "not all white people".

It doesn't matter if it's "not all white people" because the structure of white supremacy (and therefore white fragility) is still there.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Sure they don't. Now... do YOU? Do most people?
Do disadvantaged minorities in rich first world nations want to hear about those things in relation to the vast majority of the world's population that is actually below them on the privilege totem pole?
Would they react positively to being told that they've got place of birth privilege or something?

Nah. Most of them are gonna arbitrarily draw the line at nationality so they've got a convenient foundation below them protecting against "first world fragility" or whatever term you wanna call it. They're not gonna go out of their way to improve the lives of those outside their own local bubble beyond what takes minimal effort, if even that. Tell them they benefit from the exploitation of cheap labor and the ignoring of human rights. "Sure that's bad, but I've got my own struggles! I didn't choose to be born here! There's only so much I can do! What do you mean, first worlders? Not ALL of them!"
Sound familiar? It should.

But my point isn't that we should ignore something bad because someone else has it worse aka "but what about the starving children in soandso". I'm not making excuses for the people that are complained about here. Hell no. That wouldn't change anything for the better.
My point is the OPPOSITE. You made it sound like that kind of response is a special attribute of white people in western countries when confronted with their privilege and the disadvantages/discrimination that minorities in their countries face.
It isn't.
My point is, everyone should practice what they preach. What they think white people should be doing, they should probably be doing themselves in other aspects of life, unless they want to be hypocrites. Almost any excuse they make for not doing this is an excuse white people can also use, and will, because it's all relative.

Now I'm curious if this will get any indignant first world fragility (I love this term) driven replies even though all I basically said is "you can keep punching up for all I care but don't forget that there's always someone below you"

Fortunately people can focus on more than one thing at a time. This thread is about white fragility though, particularly in America.

Maybe I used the wrong terminology and should said "supremacist" on that case. Point though, is that even systemic issues, i.e. like "white fragility" does not automatically include every individual.

So you're kind of not really refuting my point even if I phrased it poorly.

You could have just said #NotAllWhitePeople and saved yourself some keyboard wear and tear.

 

[Secret Fawful]

I mean, the thread is about the difficulty of having conversations about race/sex/etc. Arguing about how best to fix that problem seems like the only productive route for discussion to take.

Or instead of arguing, white people can listen to the advice of people of color, and then take it.

 

[Nepenthe]

What exactly are we supposed to do? Listen to people talk about shit I already know?

For one, don't ask "what are we supposed to do?" in a way that conjures defensiveness and begs explanatory coddling. That's pretty easy to do.

If you "know" all this "shit," and you actively call out racism, then great. You're better off than over half the white populous who allowed Trump in. Also keep doing that.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

I like being white, in fact I am proud to be white... Apparently it serves me well. There's nothing fragile about me, if you want to be racist towards me because of my whiteness so be it.

Judging by your post history, well... yeah, you're totes not fragile. lol

I'm white, well, Mediterranean white (some people don't consider that white, lol), and I'm not proud of that because I shouldn't have to feel proud about being white, it's just a skin color. Honestly, I'm indifferent to it, but even I acknowledge the privileges I have for being white, especially growing up in some shit neighborhoods in Boston and seeing how I'm treated compared to how my black and Hispanic friends were treated.

And once I transitioned into a woman, well, let's just say I finally understood what it meant to oppressed, discriminated, and treated unequal. And even then, I still have my white privilege, everyone cares more about a poor white transwoman than a black transwoman. Seen it first hand, it's just so wrong.

 

[commedieu]

Sure they don't. Now... do YOU? Do most people?
Do disadvantaged minorities in rich first world nations want to hear about those things in relation to the vast majority of the world's population that is actually below them on the privilege totem pole?
Would they react positively to being told that they've got place of birth privilege or something?

Nah. Most of them are gonna arbitrarily draw the line at nationality so they've got a convenient foundation below them protecting against "first world fragility" or whatever term you wanna call it. They're not gonna go out of their way to improve the lives of those outside their own local bubble beyond what takes minimal effort, if even that. Tell them they benefit from the exploitation of cheap labor and the ignoring of human rights. "Sure that's bad, but I've got my own struggles! I didn't choose to be born here! There's only so much I can do! What do you mean, first worlders? Not ALL of them!"
Sound familiar? It should.

But my point isn't that we should ignore something bad because someone else has it worse aka "but what about the starving children in soandso". I'm not making excuses for the people that are complained about here. Hell no. That wouldn't change anything for the better.
My point is the OPPOSITE. You made it sound like that kind of response is a special attribute of white people in western countries when confronted with their privilege and the disadvantages/discrimination that minorities in their countries face.
It isn't.
My point is, everyone should practice what they preach. What they think white people should be doing, they should probably be doing themselves in other aspects of life, unless they want to be hypocrites. Almost any excuse they make for not doing this is an excuse white people can also use, and will, because it's all relative.

Now I'm curious if this will get any indignant first world fragility (I love this term) driven replies even though all I basically said is "you can keep punching up for all I care but don't forget that there's always someone below you"

There is a lot wrong with this post. Many minorities around the world, feel for say, refugees... or people of hati.. just as Caucasians do.

This is a really strange effort to downplay things as "there is third world poverty too, and why arent you upset at that.!?"

That's a stones through from why aren't Nyack people upset about black on black crime, to a degree. It's just flat out deflection.

I'm sure most minorities can feel for the Palestinian people. Or the people of Yemen currently being slaughtered.

White people have the privilege to tell people to practice what they preach. Because white supremacy is ingrained in American society. White people enjoy the privlege of being in position to make rules about society. This is your response to a thread about how white people shut down and take offense to this being noted.

Others are honest enough to know the history and the implications of being white in America, and have said as much without trying to whatabout. And those folks are genuine.

With all this said, it really doesn't matter. It's not like you're going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. But hopefully others will be able to have more information for their own knowledge.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Okay but this is, once again, getting into unnecessary weeds of "not all white people".

It doesn't matter if it's "not all white people" because the structure of white supremacy (and therefore white fragility) is still there.

Fortunately people can focus on more than one thing at a time. This thread is about white fragility though, particularly in America.


You could have just said #NotAllWhitePeople and saved yourself some keyboard wear and tear.

You guys seem to be completely missing that my main point is the people using the"not all white people" posts to defend themselves against something nobody/nothing, including the term "white fragility", actually accused them of, is a sign of said fragility?

My point was to show my conclusion that this term does not specifically target every white person, therefore invalidating the "not all white people" defense.

Literally the first thing I posted in this thread was that I didn't believe the complaints of generalization are valid.

 

[marrec]

You guys seem to be completely missing that my main point is the people using the"not all white people" posts to defend themselves against something nobody/nothing, including the term "white fragility", actually accused them of, is a sign of said fragility?

Literally the first thing I posted in this thread was that I didn't believe the complaints of generalization are valid.

LOL

Sorry the way you phrased the opening was vague to me:

I've been lurking in this thread a lot and trying to decide on whether this whole argument about generalizing white people is valid.

Thinking about it, I don't think it is.

And from there I just assumed you were using the "not all white people" as a proof of the invalidity of generalizing white people, rather than the opposite. I think I pretty successfully argued against your non-existent defense tho gotta gimme that.

 

[Ponn]

I mean, the thread is about the difficulty of having conversations about race/sex/etc. Arguing about how best to fix that problem seems like the only productive route for discussion to take.

How many people arguing actually care about the discussion versus just being upset about being called fragile. Once they have established they are upset about being called fragile white people and aren't they go back to their regularly scheduled program.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

What exactly are we supposed to do? Listen to people talk about shit I already know? It's not that I don't care about issues of others in this country, but in this moment in time, I need to get myself tight before I can worry about anyone else. I'll still call out racist behavior because I love confrontation with ignorant people. Honestly I couldn't even point you in the right direction to get change though, especially the change people want.

Honestly I fall into the same mindset. I'd love to do something but I'm not sure what all I can actually do. I have zero free time as it is and we're expecting our first kid in spring which is going to severely limit any charitable donations because childcare is expensive af.

I live in a fairly diverse neighborhood in the Chicago burbs and work in a mostly white workplace in the city. So there isn't any obvious racism that I observe on a day to day basis to speak out against. So with almost no free time and soon to be very limited funds, I'm not sure what the hell I can really do. Time and money is everything – I devote all of both to my family. I don't really have any left to give and that sucks; unless I'd be willing to make sacrifices at the expense of my family and career to help others. And that's something I'm not willing to do. I don't know if I should be ashamed of that or the fact that I didn't even have to think twice to come to that conclusion.

I'll continue to do what I can but I guess in my situation it seems like somewhere between bare minimum and jack shit.

 

[rjinaz]

What exactly are we supposed to do? Listen to people talk about shit I already know? It's not that I don't care about issues of others in this country, but in this moment in time, I need to get myself tight before I can worry about anyone else. I'll still call out racist behavior because I love confrontation with ignorant people. Honestly I couldn't even point you in the right direction to get change though, especially the change people want.

I think what you're doing is what we need to do. Call it out when we see it and not deny that racism is still a problem today and to admit that White people prefer to think that it does not exist.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

LOL

Sorry the way you phrased the opening was vague to me:



And from there I just assumed you were using the "not all white people" as a proof of the invalidity of generalizing white people, rather than the opposite. I think I pretty successfully argued against your non-existent defense tho gotta gimme that.

Yeah I kind of realised the phrasing wasn't too specific as I read back over my post to find out why it sounded you were agreeing with me while you were disagreeing with me

 

[TheOohChild]

Reading about white fragility really gives me a stinging case of white fragility. I'm a Euro-mutt, being a white American dude is all I know.

 

[Zaru]

With all this said, it really doesn't matter. It's not like you're going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. But hopefully others will be able to have more information for their own knowledge.

Do we have some kind of major communication problem here

Not only did you tell me I was saying something which I explicitly said I WASN'T trying to say, you're now also basically saying we're on different sides. What IS your side? And what do you think mine is?

 

[cdyhybrid]

Yeah I kind of realised the phrasing wasn't too specific as I read back over my post to find out why it sounded you were agreeing with me while you were disagreeing with me

Yeah, I was confused. Apologies.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Honestly I fall into the same mindset. I'd love to do something but I'm not sure what all I can actually do. I have zero free time as it is and we're expecting our first kid in spring which is going to severely limit any charitable donations because childcare is expensive af.

I live in a fairly diverse neighborhood in the Chicago burbs and work in a mostly white workplace in the city. So there isn't any obvious racism that I observe on a day to day basis to speak out against. So with almost no free time and soon to be very limited funds, I'm not sure what the hell I can really do. Time and money is everything – I devote all of both to my family. I don't really have any left to give and that sucks; unless I'd be willing to make sacrifices at the expense of my family and career to help others. And that's something I'm not willing to do. I don't know if I should be ashamed of that or the fact that I didn't even have to think twice to come to that conclusion.

I'll continue to do what I can but I guess in my situation it seems like somewhere between bare minimum and jack shit.

Do you vote for people who support making life harder for minorities? That's kind of a big deal?

I'm assuming you'll teach your incoming child about equality and such. That's a pretty big deal.

You could give small donations to local organisations. Even real small ones.

 

[Messofanego]

Honestly I fall into the same mindset. I'd love to do something but I'm not sure what all I can actually do. I have zero free time as it is and we're expecting our first kid in spring which is going to severely limit any charitable donations because childcare is expensive af.

I live in a fairly diverse neighborhood in the Chicago burbs and work in a mostly white workplace in the city. So there isn't any obvious racism that I observe on a day to day basis to speak out against. So with almost no free time and soon to be very limited funds, I'm not sure what the hell I can really do. Time and money is everything – I devote all of both to my family. I don't really have any left to give and that sucks; unless I'd be willing to make sacrifices at the expense of my family and career to help others. And that's something I'm not willing to do. I don't know if I should be ashamed of that or the fact that I didn't even have to think twice to come to that conclusion.

I'll continue to do what I can but I guess in my situation it seems like somewhere between bare minimum and jack shit.

Getting yourself knowledgeable is almost free though, don't have to give to charities to help when just understanding experiences from marginalised people is good. Reading articles, watching documentaries, the small things can help too. Educating others around you and dispelling stereotypes or myths.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

How many people arguing actually care about the discussion versus just being upset about being called fragile. Once they have established they are upset about being called fragile white people and aren't they go back to their regularly scheduled program.

There may be some duds, but I think there are also a decent amount of people arguing in good faith.

And it isn't just for the sake of those arguing, but also those reading the exchange. I generally just lurk, absorb what people say, and try to sort it out myself. Even if one side is arguing in bad faith, then there's still one side that isn't, and value can be found in the dialog.

With all this said, it really doesn't matter. It's not like you're going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. But hopefully others will be able to have more information for their own knowledge.

Exactly.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Do you vote for people who support making life harder for minorities? That's kind of a big deal?

I tend to vote pretty liberally but if I'm completely honest that's not the main bullet point on my list when voting. It's Illinois so I'm more concerned about voting in someone who isn't just a complete piece of corrupt shit regardless of party.

So that's definitely something I could be more conscious of.

Getting yourself knowledgeable is almost free though, don't have to give to charities to help when just understanding experiences from marginalised people is good. Reading articles, watching documentaries, the small things can help too.

Fair enough. I'm 43 minutes into this Tim Wise vid and I'm agreeing with his points and genuinely learning things. I guess passing this along to my future daughter is something but I still can't help but kind of shrug otherwise like the original poster I quoted.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

This thread's proof that when push comes to shove, gaf isn't as uniformly liberal as people like to think.

 

[Nafai1123]

I'd like to use an analogy for a moment.

When the issue of rape culture is discussed, do men immediately go to the argument "not all men?" If so, do you acknowledge that is a form of male fragility? The inability to actually discuss the issue because it is internalized merely deflects from the issue present in society. It doesn't matter whether you personally engage in that culture (most men aren't rapists obviously), immediately turning to "not all men" does nothing to further the conversation. For that matter, the more ambiguous question of how men respond to feminism in general can also be an expressions of male fragility, and even men who believe in equal rights for women can fall into these traps.

If we can accept that men who do this are expressing male fragility, can we not agree what white people who do this are expressing white fragility?

 

[commedieu]

Do we have some kind of major communication problem here

Not only did you tell me I was saying something which I explicitly said I WASN'T trying to say, you're now also basically saying we're on different sides. What IS your side? And what do you think mine is?

Your argument is very well illustrated in your post. If you weren't trying to say any of the paragraphs you said.. well. I don't know where to go from here.

From paragraph one, I disagree with the intent of your post. Suggesting first world minorities don't pay attention to third world travesties. I do because I empathize with their treatment, as it's a cousin of treatment to me. But it doesn't really have much to do with white frailty, and I see it as deflection.


If that clears things up.

 

[The Salt Life]

I think what you're doing is what we need to do. Call it out when we see it and not deny that racism is still a problem today and to admit that White people prefer to think that it does not exist.

True story time
I bully bullies

So I'm hanging outside at work one day, me, and two other guys. They are best friends, hang out all the time, ones black and one is white. Now the white guy is always saying some mad racist shit, but the other guy just takes it in stride and I'm looking at him like "you not going to check him for that?"

So racist guy goes upstairs and I turn to the other guy (who is also my friend) and I'm like "are you afraid to get in trouble because I will totally say something to him if you want"

And he tells me "nah I don't need you fighting my battles he is just ignorant"

I won't lie, I felt a little embarrassed after that, like who am I to fight other people's battles, especially when they didn't ask for my help?

Should I continue to feel that way? There is a time and a place I'm guessing?

 

[Dai101]

This thread's proof that when push comes to shove, gaf isn't as uniformly liberal as people like to think.

No lies there.

 

[D i Z]

We suck at this and may not do better for a long while. In my experience white fragility in this context exists because white people don't see the advantage.

If a white person is having a hard life and someone tells them, your people oppress me because your have too many advantages, they aren't going to stop and think, yeah my life is hard but my situation would be even harder if I were black, they think "fuck you my shit ain't easy" or at minimum "I've got my own problems so leave me out of yours".

I would say it's human nature to be this minimally self interested, but that 1) is arguable because empathy is also human nature and 2) doesn't excuse it.

The parallel someone drew early about a woman saying all men are assholes is a wonderful point. If someone I knew said that, I know they'd be talking about the general actions of general men and how we do actually tend to be assholes. I'd apologise for my gender, take it as a reminder to be a better man, and be more inclined to call out other men pulling asshole behavior.

By the same token though if a random stranger walked up to me and told me that I'd probably just be inclined to avoid them and mutter "what the hell did I do to you". Encountering it on a forum that I frequent because it's a platform for people that share my interests, I'd lean towards the former. Don't feel a need to defend my gender on a gaming forum.

Same for my race; however, I do personally feel a stronger inclination to want to defend my race than gender. Wonder why that part of my identity has more value... maybe it's not that I give it more value, just that I, at least subconsciously, admit less that it is guilty of wrongdoing as a group than my gender.

Maybe I have more confidence as a man than as a white person? I can be proud of some aspects of my identity as a man. As a white person....

That last one feels most on the nose, though I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

Just wanted to bump this post. It might be useful in helping those that ask how to even approach tackling these issues internally. These concepts are not new, but they are new for enough people facing them for the first time that I imagine the frustrations come quicker than the solutions.

 

[Bergerac]

How is white fragility a stereotype

...

Words fail me...

 

[Infinite]

...

Words fail me...

Phenomenon

White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress be- comes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation.

 

[Psychoward]

...

Words fail me...

uh, just using the term white fragility doesn't mean all white people are fragile about race discussions

do you know the meaning of the word stereotype?

 

[Bergerac]

White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress be- comes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation.

You think because something has been defined, that the definition makes any sense?!

Take that paragraph after the words 'White fragility... ' and scientifically link it to what you are referring to as 'White Fragility'.

It describes a generic state after attributing it to a race.

The leap of logic there is the phenomenon.

 

[kirblar]

True story time
I bully bullies

So I'm hanging outside at work one day, me, and two other guys. They are best friends, hang out all the time, ones black and one is white. Now the white guy is always saying some mad racist shit, but the other guy just takes it in stride and I'm looking at him like "you not going to check him for that?"

So racist guy goes upstairs and I turn to the other guy (who is also my friend) and I'm like "are you afraid to get in trouble because I will totally say something to him if you want"

And he tells me "nah I don't need you fighting my battles he is just ignorant"

I won't lie, I felt a little embarrassed after that, like who am I to fight other people's battles, especially when they didn't ask for my help?

Should I continue to feel that way? There is a time and a place I'm guessing?

You shouldn't feel embarrassed at all, you handled it pretty much exactly how you should have. You asked the person affected how they'd like it handled rather than charge in, and got the answer.

 

[The Salt Life]

You shouldn't feel embarrassed at all, you handled it pretty much exactly how you should have. You asked the person affected how they'd like it handled rather than charge in, and got the answer.

I feel like what holds me back from doing it now is....well I guess that fragility thing, if I think what I'm doing is right and then someone turns around and says something like "why you trying to be a white savior" well.... That's like fighting words to me, you're starting a confrontation with me then, because in my non college educated mind, I'm confronting a racist because they are just disgusting people, I'm not doing it to save anyone's day, I'm doing it because the world needs less of it.

 

[Infinite]

You think because something has been defined, that the definition makes any sense?!

Take that paragraph after the words 'White fragility... ' and scientifically link it to what you are referring to as 'White Fragility'.

It describes a generic state after attributing it to a race.

The leap of logic there is the phenomenon.

No you said the term white fragility stereotypes white people the definition I posted expresses that it is not such rather a phenomenon. I don't care if you agree with the definition used or not. Point being your wrong

 

[Bergerac]

uh, just using the term white fragility doesn't mean all white people are fragile about race discussions

do you know the meaning of the word stereotype?

Right.

Let me understand your logic:

'White Fragility' is experienced by some white people.

'White Fragility' is not experienced by all white people.

Yet there's some special ingredient that makes said fragility 'white fragility' rather than 'racial fragility'.

Do YOU understand the meaning of the word stereotype?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I've been lurking in this thread a lot and trying to decide on whether this whole argument about generalizing white people is valid.

Thinking about it, I don't think it is.

The term white fragility, doesn't automatically apply to all white people, in the same way that police brutality doesn't refer to every single police officer. In the same way that white supremacy doesn't refer to every white person. In the same way that

White supremacy refers to white people who are supremacists.

Police brutality refers to those of the police who brutalize..

Right wing/left wing bigotry refers to sections of those entities that are bigoted.

White fragility refers to white people who are fragile regarding the relevant topic?

And with that, this entire thread being overtaken with people feeling personally attacked by a phrase that doesn't actually refer to them unless they decide it does, maybe is actually a representation of this topic?

I mean....just look:


....at this right here.....

Wrong.gif


You can't really have this conversation if you have such a reductive understanding of white supremacy.

 

[International Iron Man]

You shouldn't feel embarrassed at all, you handled it pretty much exactly how you should have. You asked the person affected how they'd like it handled rather than charge in, and got the answer.

Ehh...

It depends. If he was saying racist shit about the black dude to the black dude, that's one thing and he did the right thing.

If he was saying racist shit about minorities in general outside of the specific person he was speaking to? He should have called it out, damn his weak ass friend.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

True story time
I bully bullies

So I'm hanging outside at work one day, me, and two other guys. They are best friends, hang out all the time, ones black and one is white. Now the white guy is always saying some mad racist shit, but the other guy just takes it in stride and I'm looking at him like "you not going to check him for that?"

So racist guy goes upstairs and I turn to the other guy (who is also my friend) and I'm like "are you afraid to get in trouble because I will totally say something to him if you want"

And he tells me "nah I don't need you fighting my battles he is just ignorant"

I won't lie, I felt a little embarrassed after that, like who am I to fight other people's battles, especially when they didn't ask for my help?

Should I continue to feel that way? There is a time and a place I'm guessing?

don't feel embarrassed, I'd say call that shit out anyways. Straight up. The black dude was probably dismissive because he himself was embarrassed that he was just tolerating it. The burden of being black in predominantly white spaces is you're exposed to this shit constantly and some people just pick their battles. Antiblackness is so pervasive that this guy's best friend is a racist. How fucked is that?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I feel like what holds me back from doing it now is....well I guess that fragility thing, if I think what I'm doing is right and then someone turns around and says something like "why you trying to be a white savior" well.... That's like fighting words to me, you're starting a confrontation with me then, because in my non college educated mind, I'm confronting a racist because they are just disgusting people, I'm not doing it to save anyone's day, I'm doing it because the world needs less of it.

Just think of it like this. If someone specifically asks you not to escalate a situation what is the proper response?

Otherwise if it's just you, ot's on you to decide what bothers you enough to escalate and what you just wanna let go. When someone is just acting in a completely inappropriate way, it's not being a saviour if you call them on their bullshit.

You can't be exoected to never speak up against something that bothering you over the perception of how you look. No one is going to hold it against you as long as you make a point for you and not for others.

 

[Psychoward]

Right.

Let me understand your logic:

'White Fragility' is experienced by some white people.

'White Fragility' is not experienced by all white people.

Yet there's some special ingredient that makes said fragility 'white fragility' rather than 'racial fragility'.

Do YOU understand the meaning of the word stereotype?

Yes because all races aren't equal in America so white fragility exists while "racial fragility" doesn't, or at least, not to a meaningful extent. Does that clear it up?

Furthermore, even if other races were fragile about their race it doesn't matter because they're not the majority or the oppressors. They're not the ones we need to be having conversations with.

 

[Clefargle]

White fragility is specifically this mentality when displayed by a white person. It is by definition when a white person acts this way and of course is not a statement about the global white community. If you're not one of the people acting fragile, this doesn't describe you. By definition.

 

[The Salt Life]

Just think of it like this. If someone specifically asks you not to escalate a situation what is the proper response?
.

Proper response is to respect their wishes and walk away, but if the other party keeps it up while you walk away, well yeah I'm going to turn back around.

 

[archangelmorph]

I'm amazed at the irony that people (white?) are wading into a thread about white fragility,

and taking such extreme umbrage with the very notion that this might be a thing, that it's somehow deeply offensive to inherently encapsulate an entirely observed behaviour by the majority racial group in-question, into this innocuous and semi-satirical classification,

thereby inadvertently fulfilling the very notion and spirit of the idiom they're so passionately railing against...

 

[HellforLeather]

And most people's progression as people isn't contingent on blanket statements first being minimized/eliminated before moving forward.

Your entire line of discussion suggests that not only should people withdraw from the effort, but that they're right to, and their failures and shortcomings are now not their fault, but instead the fault of the person who didn't hold their hand gently enough while pointing them towards the better future they claim to want.

Im not placing fault or advocating withdrawl. Im critical of the article and the terminology here because thats what the thread started out discussing. I advocate only for dialing down the rhetoric and speaking to each other like real people, which the fringes of both sides have seemed to drown out by being the loudest and most controversial voice in the room. Accusing people of things that they havent done with blanket statements puts them on the backfoot right off the bat (not just white people) and peoples tendencies are to dig in. Appealing to their sense of rationale will net a more positive response and move people in your direction.

Let me say though, that this isnt your or anybody else's job, you have no real responsibility for this, but how I see it is your choices are to get mad, sling blanket statements have your opposition dig in and have the discourse go nowhere....or put emotions aside and try to appeal to their sense of reason and bring them around to your side.


Goddatmoney, I think this touches a bit on your response as well. You say that no way of starting this conversation will make a change. I disagree.