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[watershed]

I think you just have to honestly want equality and have general empathy for it to start to make sense. I'm a college graduate but it was in a technology field, and I never took an actual class on gender or race or any of that. So I don't really think my schooling contributed to the understanding of my own privilege and how it's associated to race.

Edit: And in the case of white people, we need to be able to accept that criticism is not an implicit attack against us. Too many white people get offended and instantly shutdown when you try to explain privilege because they want to believe they made it to where they were purely on their own merits free of an institutional advantage. That's not how the world works. We're all affected by the actions of others and the structure that community creates.

I think there are certainly qualities like empathy and thoughtfulness that help individual people understand their own privilege or concepts like structural racism but I feel that without genuine immersion in education specific to race, equity, identity, etc. whether that is in an academic setting or not.

I say this partly because I have met so many people who are traditionally liberal/progressive and believe themselves to be great allies to POC (as one example) and not racist at all but when you scratch beneath the surface they have tons of unresolved prejudice and racist beliefs. Generally I discover just how little they know about race and equity compared to how much they think they know. I truly believe that if one intends to be an effective ally, you need more than empathy, you have to know your shit. Caring is just step 1.

 

[MetalGearZed]

There is a really good Samantha Bee segment on this subject

that was thankfully better received than that MTV video https://youtu.be/nE8nQZPfYpY

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

The problem is not white people, is whiteness.
The problem is not straight people, is heterocentrism
The problem is not cisgenders, is transphobia.
The problem is not males, is the patriarchy.

I think the discussion gets broken when we personalize social conventions that most people were throw into without their approval.

This.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I say this partly because I have met so many people who are traditionally liberal/progressive and believe themselves to be great allies to POC (as one example) and not racist at all but when you scratch beneath the surface they have tons of unresolved prejudice and racist beliefs. Generally I discover just how little they know about race and equity compared to how much they think they know. I truly believe that if one intends to be an effective ally, you need more than empathy, you have to know your shit. Caring is just step 1.

That sounds less like people with actual empathy, and more those who want to congratulate themselves into believing they are forward thinking. Like the type who would go to a rally for equality to snap some selfies to share, but then go home to their comfortable privileged lives and not really think about it. Meanwhile those not of the privileged class may have to fret for what tomorrow brings. As I said in my edit, the second you criticize certain privileged member they will shutdown - regardless of whether they identify as liberal or conservative. They don't want to believe more than their own hard work got them where they are.

I know I am guilty of this in the past, and it still occasionally flares up.

 

[watershed]

That sounds less like people with actual empathy, and more those who want to congratulate themselves into believing they are forward thinking. Like the type who would go to a rally for equality to snap some selfies to share, but then go home to their comfortable privileged lives and not really think about it. Meanwhile those not of the privileged class may have to fret for what tomorrow brings. As I said in my edit, the second you criticize certain privileged member they will shutdown - regardless of whether they identify as liberal or conservative. They don't want to believe more than their own hard work got them where they are.

I know I am guilty of this in the past, and it still occasionally flares up.

No I think they definitely have empathy but they are people who have not guided themselves or had someone else guide them through the journey of examining their own privilege and coming out the end an empowered ally. What I'm saying is that truly understanding these issues and becoming an effective ally requires more than just a handful of qualities like empathy.

 

[BruinsMtB]

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

 

[Psychoward]

The problem is not white people, is whiteness.
The problem is not straight people, is heterocentrism
The problem is not cisgenders, is transphobia.
The problem is not males, is the patriarchy.

I think the discussion gets broken when we personalize social conventions that most people were throw into without their approval.

I think the problem is people in those groups taking everything 100% literal and then reacting strongly against whatever they're supposedly fighting for.

Edit: case in point, the post directly above me

 

[LaNaranja]

Pro-police blog Blue Lives Matter posted about the box and condemned both the action and the Black Lives Matter movement, saying, “For those who are not aware, this is extremely disrespectful to law enforcement.”

The thought of a black life mattering is disrespectful.... do these people accept that they are racist or do they seriously go through the olympic level mental gymnastics to convince themselves they are good people?

 

[RevenWolf]

The thought of a black life mattering is disrespectful.... do these people accept that they are racist or do they seriously go through the olympic level mental gymnastics to convince themselves they are good people?

Pretty much no one believes they are a bad person. That's part of the problem because no one wants to acknowledge negative traits they have.

 

[Nepenthe]

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

Let's ignore the fact that the less social corruption in a country, the more social and economic freedom every member of society receives by default (let's see how white people really fare in 30-50 years when they're not over half the population and economic competition comes to a head; that is, if white Hispanics aren't assimilated into the fold of "whiteness" to bolster your numbers again like what was done with the Irish and Italians), meaning you have an actual tangible stake in America not being a racist country--

If you honestly don't care about seeing America move towards an even playing field when it comes to reconciling its racial caste systems, I personally couldn't give a fuck about that. Things aren't going to be fixed in my lifetime, so it's easier to resign myself to the reality than hope for the best in individuals. That, and a benign effect on things is ultimately better than a negative one.

However, you have no moral right to get in the way of minorities trying to achieve social parity.

Don't insist that BLM are racial terrorists on par with the KKK. Don't call civil rights leaders ungrateful for not thanking your race for "fixing" the slavery white people perpetuated in the first place. Don't vote for politicians who are intent on instigating, installing, and continuing practices whose only reason for existence is to shit on us, especially so when they're not actually offering practical fixes for your situation. Don't go on YouTube and alt-right it up in the comments. Don't derail real racial issues to focus back on yourself because you feel uncomfortable or guilty. Don't insist there's a better way to protest while not offering up solutions yourself. Just keep yourself out of the fight altogether. You, as an individual who is obviously bitter as shit on top of everything, don't have to do a damn thing for minorities. No one's going to hurt you over it. You don't have to take a seat at the table. Just don't fuck up the congregation the rest of us are having.

 

[Captin Quacker]

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

Your either for equality or your not simple as that

Now you don't have to opt-in if you don't want to, that's your right but don't be surprised if you get lumped in with racist when you place your problems ahead of my very existence

 

[akira28]

cops afraid someone put safety pins in their doughnuts. Welp. Get right with your community so you don't need foodtasters like some much hated medieval Baron?

or make accusations and start a police investigation over some sharpie letters on a doughnut box.

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

who are "your people"? you might be surprised by what people like.

 

[Rembrandt]

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

I really hope you don't get banned and you can continue posting.

 

[Talka]

Like every other poster so far, I'm on board with >99% of the sentiment and intent of the posted article. But so this thread doesn't become an echo chamber, here's the <1% where I disagree (or misunderstand):

“Why are you so invested in whiteness that when you see something said about white people, you take that personally?”

Why shouldn't I take it personally when something is said about white people? I've been told my entire life that I'm supposed to acknowledge my whiteness and be cognizant of the privileges it affords me. Isn't that a necessary step in owning up to institutional racism and empathizing with people of color? I'm not "invested" in whiteness, but I recognize I am white. When we discuss whiteness, we're discussing me.

So when we paint white people with a broad brush in a way that doesn't accurately describe all white people... well, I suppose I kind of sympathize with the "not all white people" reflex. I'd never actually say that to shut down a real-life discussion, but it feels like we're trying to have it both ways: I'm supposed to recognize my whiteness and never object to anything said about white people.

Let's use this comment as an example:

"When white people are scared, people die"

I get the intent of the comment, and I accept this is a real issue that requires discussion. At the same time, this categorically does not describe me. So what's the appropriate response? Do I take exception with the comment? Then I'm "invested" in my whiteness and guilty of perpetrating "white violence." Am I supposed to assume the comment wasn't meant to apply to me specifically? Then I'm denying my whiteness, and that doesn't sound right either. Do I just ignore the conversation altogether? That doesn't sound productive.

It just feels like imprecise language in an article specifically about the importance of precise language. I don't know. I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory here. I've got an open mind on this one and would love for someone to clarify my thinking here.

 

[KonradLaw]

One of the side effects of identity politics is the rise of white identity. You can't expect every white person to feel white guilt and yet then be surprised that they take any attack on white people personally. It doesn't work this way. You can't expect somebody white to feel responsible for his entire race when you need something from him and then expect him to drop the indentity of whiteness in other situations

 

[akira28]

It just feels like imprecise language in an article specifically about the importance of precise language. I don't know. I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory here. I've got an open mind on this one and would love for someone to clarify my thinking here.

Is it about the precision(?!) of language? I think the demand that the language surrounding the discussion of race be "precise" or else it often gets unfairly challenged or completely cast out of hand is a problem.

How much truth in context applies to the "when white people are afraid" even if that particular context doesn't apply specifically to you? It applies generally, in concern to the argument that under context of our racial violence and law enforcement issues, when white fear and race realities mix in America, violent outcomes are often a result. Is that something you want to specifically challenge because it doesn't describe your experiences? Because you are white?

Part of the argument in the article discusses people who take offense at criticism of white society and speak up in defense of whiteness, as if that was what was under attack. But most of the comments are pointing at the injustices and misdeeds that come with living closely with white society, and the common reply is "not all white people." Which is fine, but when you're talking about the society itself a lot of those criticisms ring true, and no white person would deny it. So which is it? Does white society have a race problem? Can white society be addressed, if properly defined, and can things be discussed without the caveat that it doesn't describe every single white person?

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

You sound as though you're excluding yourself from these people who have the educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege, and yet you are doing exactly that right now, with the only difference being you're arguing against having to care about it. And the idea that having benefited from the system means you should shut up about it reminds me of people who were saying Kaepernick shouldn't protest because he's a millionaire in the NFL so discrimination hasn't kept him from succeeding, as if the ability to recognize that bad things are happening to other people and then caring about their suffering is some totally foreign concept to his critics. I, personally, am a college dropout who makes ~30k a year. I'm not exactly swimming in success here, but I have the moral fortitude to be genuine with myself and recognize that my own problems do not circumvent others' just because I'm the one dealing with them. People who care only for their own problems and can't wrap their head around the idea of helping others with no expectation of personal gain are, ya know, sociopaths.

Also, this might be a worthwhile read for you in terms of how to view social issues:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

 

[Chuck Norris]

The hierarchies of America benefit rich white people, not all white people.

Black people have it worse. But when we are all fighting in the squalor of peasantry that this country is becoming with one set of poor people pointing the finger at another set of poor people for having a slightly better outcome of a bad situation, the bigger picture is being overlooked.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

All you have to do is understand. Not much else. Everything else will come naturally after that.

If you understand, you won't vote in ways which hurt them.

If you understand, you'll support pushes to make improvements, instead of taking pushes for improvements as a personal attack.

If you understand, when confronted with ignorance, you'll denounce or argue against it.

If you understand, you'll teach people who look up to you to understand too.


Only group I hear GAF talk about wanting to die is related to wanting the old racist generations to naturally diminish in numbers so society can move on.

Are you an old racist? Are they "your people"?

 

[Trident]

The hierarchies of America benefit rich white people, not all white people.

Black people have it worse. But when we are all fighting in the squalor of peasantry that this country is becoming with one set of poor people pointing the finger at another set of poor people for having a slightly better outcome of a bad situation, the bigger picture is being overlooked.

We should be able to simultaneously recognize economic disparities and racial disparities. Both need to be addressed.

 

[Messofanego]

Like every other poster so far, I'm on board with >99% of the sentiment and intent of the posted article. But so this thread doesn't become an echo chamber, here's the <1% where I disagree (or misunderstand):

”Why are you so invested in whiteness that when you see something said about white people, you take that personally?"

Why shouldn't I take it personally when something is said about white people? I've been told my entire life that I'm supposed to acknowledge my whiteness and be cognizant of the privileges it affords me. Isn't that a necessary step in owning up to institutional racism and empathizing with people of color? I'm not "invested" in whiteness, but I recognize I am white. When we discuss whiteness, we're discussing me.

So when we paint white people with a broad brush in a way that doesn't accurately describe all white people... well, I suppose I kind of sympathize with the "not all white people" reflex. I'd never actually say that to shut down a real-life discussion, but it feels like we're trying to have it both ways: I'm supposed to recognize my whiteness and never object to anything said about white people.

Let's use this comment as an example:

"When white people are scared, people die"

I get the intent of the comment, and I accept this is a real issue that requires discussion. At the same time, this categorically does not describe me. So what's the appropriate response? Do I take exception with the comment? Then I'm "invested" in my whiteness and guilty of perpetrating "white violence." Am I supposed to assume the comment wasn't meant to apply to me specifically? Then I'm denying my whiteness, and that doesn't sound right either. Do I just ignore the conversation altogether? That doesn't sound productive.

It just feels like imprecise language in an article specifically about the importance of precise language. I don't know. I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory here. I've got an open mind on this one and would love for someone to clarify my thinking here.

How can you accurately describe all white people? You can't. If you're not engaging in diversionary and defensive tactics to downplay the issues, then the concept of white fragility isn't directed at you. You don't have to defend white people. If other groups can handle generalisations for generations without reacting as if they're being attacked, so can white people.

As a british pakistani muslim, I've had plenty of generalisations said about me directly (to my face) and indirectly (reading from others), but I never feel attacked about my "muslim-ness" or "pakistani-ness" because I recognise they're not talking about me but the systems and structures that are a consequence of many people of my identity e.g. misogyny, honour killing, homophobia, antisemitism, etc. Like with recent stuff about women feeling unsafe to go out in Sevran in France because of muslim men who are fearful of women by themselves or without a man at hand. It's healthy to acknowledge the bad stuff that has happened, and not feel you're being personally attacked, otherwise you're just blinding yourself to the issues and want to shut down a bigger conversation because your identity is getting hurt over the small things.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I think part of the problem is that some white people don't feel privileged (i.e. have had their own hardships) and have a hard time understanding that they are privileged. Saying that they are privileged makes them feel disconnected because that's not their outlook on life. It's a hard problem to solve.

Pretty much. And when people have the viewpoint that they're also doing it tough, they're not likely to think statements like "when white people are scared, people die" is fair on them at all.

If I said that statement to any of my coworkers or my parents, they'd laugh pretty hard or get pissed off. Idk, maybe it's primarily an American thing. In any case, that statement is just preaching to the choir. That's not going to make anyone who believes that the statement is shit be supportive of what the author of the article says.

 

[drtomoe123]

All you have to do is understand. Not much else. Everything else will come naturally after that.

If you understand, you won't vote in ways which hurt them.

If you understand, you'll support pushes to make improvements, instead of taking pushes for improvements as a personal attack.

If you understand, when confronted with ignorance, you'll denounce or argue against it.

If you understand, you'll teach people who look up to you to understand too.


Only group I hear GAF talk about wanting to die is related to wanting the old racist generations to naturally diminish in numbers so society can move on.

Are you an old racist? Are they "your people"?

The problem with this is that it literally can apply to any ideology. The reason why racism and any other anti-equality ideology hasn't disappeared over the course of human history is because, deep down, people aren't "fighting the fight" for the right reasons. People use ideological battles as a way of dealing with their own existential trauma and (suffering-sparked) hate. As long as people try to fill existential holes of self-worth with being right, winning, and conquering others instead of doing it for the selfless advancement of humanity, nothing will ever change.

"Your people" or "their people" dying won't change anything -- history has taught us that over and over and over. Realizing that they're all "our people" and shifting our rhetoric to reflect that is the only way that real, lasting change happens (no matter how corny it sounds).

 

[CSJ]

If I said that statement to any of my coworkers or my parents, they'd laugh pretty hard or get pissed off. Idk, maybe it's primarily an American thing.

It really is an American thing and I say that as someone who lives on an Island with 100k population (what, 0.03% of the US?) and out of that maybe 0.15% in the last consensus a few years ago are black.

When people think it's a global issue, that's when I disagree.
When most of your population is white, privilege finds a way in other areas - it's disgusting human nature, I hate it.

 

[MistakenMobius]

When people think it's a global issue, that's when I disagree.
When most of your population is white, privilege finds a way in other areas - it's disgusting human nature, I hate it.

What?
Have u ever gone out in the real world?
Privilege don't need white people to exist.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

The whole not understanding "Black Lives Matter" is so fucking childish, just admit how you really feel cause you ain't fooling anyone.

Some people legit don't understand it, though.

 

[The Incarnation]

As a white person, I want to do my part to improve race relations in this country but I have no idea how.

Well none of my white or Asian friends randomly bring up race.

Try that, might start seeing them as other people.

 

[stonesak]

Well none of my white or Asian friends randomly bring up race.

Try that, might start seeing them as other people.

Or just wear a safety pin. That's so much easier.

 

[Oppo]

Well none of my white or Asian friends randomly bring up race.

Try that, might start seeing them as other people.

huh?

what does this mean?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

The whole not understanding "Black Lives Matter" is so fucking childish, just admit how you really feel cause you ain't fooling anyone.

It's not childish. Saying it is passively allows for those who try to circumvent it the the excuse of being child-like in thought. These people know exactly what they're doing. They're attempting to deflect and derail. They're people who refuse to accept any critique of their own actions or inactions. Don't supply them any excuses or cover other than what it really is.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Interesting Article. It raises some valid points, but it misses something and that bothers me.

If you critique something, a lot of the time it can feel like an attack. If it is good, well structured, criticism can help improve things like art, or even an individual.

However no one likes being lumped. Because even if you do present a good point and that person even accepts it, they can't do anything about it. Because you meant the group. You make it more difficult for people to accept it and you even make it easier for them to deflect it. This is even more true, when the individual has not done what others of that same category have done.

There is white guilt for what has happened. However generalization never help anyone.

The problem with white people, is the same as if someone said the problem with Jews, Catholics, Mexicans, Blacks, ect...

If you want to engage in a conversation about race, you need to keep to specifics. Not all cops are racist, but that cop who killed a black guy who was unarmed and placed a gun on him, probably was.

 

[Sunster]

Interesting Article. It raises some valid points, but it misses something and that bothers me.

If you critique something, a lot of the time it can feel like an attack. If it is good, well structured, criticism can help improve things like art, or even an individual.

However no one likes being lumped. Because even if you do present a good point and that person even accepts it, they can't do anything about it. Because you meant the group. You make it more difficult for people to accept it and you even make it easier for them to deflect it. This is even more true, when the individual has not done what others of that same category have done.

There is white guilt for what has happened. However generalization never help anyone.

The problem with white people, is the same as if someone said the problem with Jews, Catholics, Mexicans, Blacks, ect...

If you want to engage in a conversation about race, you need to keep to specifics. Not all cops are racist, but that cop who killed a black guy who was unarmed and placed a gun on him, probably was.

then that cop is defended by the entire police force and even the prosecutor, if it gets that far.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Interesting Article. It raises some valid points, but it misses something and that bothers me.

If you critique something, a lot of the time it can feel like an attack. If it is good, well structured, criticism can help improve things like art, or even an individual.

However no one likes being lumped. Because even if you do present a good point and that person even accepts it, they can't do anything about it. Because you meant the group. You make it more difficult for people to accept it and you even make it easier for them to deflect it. This is even more true, when the individual has not done what others of that same category have done.

There is white guilt for what has happened. However generalization never help anyone.

The problem with white people, is the same as if someone said the problem with Jews, Catholics, Mexicans, Blacks, ect...

If you want to engage in a conversation about race, you need to keep to specifics. Not all cops are racist, but that cop who killed a black guy who was unarmed and placed a gun on him, probably was.

I do not agree:
You choose to become a cop or engage in a faith.
U don't choose to be born Black, white or LGBT.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

then that cop is defended by the entire police force and even the prosecutor, if it gets that far.

In that case, then it is acceptable to move onto generalizations. We are all individuals and abstract concepts like police officers are better to generalize than race. Though lack of specificity can only hurt your argument if you start to say things like "The problem with cops..." or "All cops...". People become instantly dismissive when you generalize.

A better way would be to say that the "The problem with X Cops..." or the "The problem with the Administration of Justice in X".

Problems become much more easier to tackle and gain much more support, if you point to specific instances of it. That's why civil rights are often seen as a slow march to equality and certain movements rarely every get everything they want immediately.

 

[GeordieMark]

How can you accurately describe all white people? You can't. If you're not engaging in diversionary and defensive tactics to downplay the issues, then the concept of white fragility isn't directed at you. You don't have to defend white people. If other groups can handle generalisations for generations without reacting as if they're being attacked, so can white people.

As a british pakistani muslim, I've had plenty of generalisations said about me directly (to my face) and indirectly (reading from others), but I never feel attacked about my "muslim-ness" or "pakistani-ness" because I recognise they're not talking about me but the systems and structures that are a consequence of many people of my identity e.g. misogyny, honour killing, homophobia, antisemitism, etc. Like with recent stuff about women feeling unsafe to go out in Sevran in France because of muslim men who are fearful of women by themselves or without a man at hand. It's healthy to acknowledge the bad stuff that has happened, and not feel you're being personally attacked, otherwise you're just blinding yourself to the issues and want to shut down a bigger conversation because your identity is getting hurt over the small things.

I get what you are saying, but there are plenty of British Muslims who do feel attacked when generalisations are made about them as a whole.

 

[Messofanego]

Interesting Article. It raises some valid points, but it misses something and that bothers me.

If you critique something, a lot of the time it can feel like an attack. If it is good, well structured, criticism can help improve things like art, or even an individual.

However no one likes being lumped. Because even if you do present a good point and that person even accepts it, they can't do anything about it. Because you meant the group. You make it more difficult for people to accept it and you even make it easier for them to deflect it. This is even more true, when the individual has not done what others of that same category have done.

There is white guilt for what has happened. However generalization never help anyone.

The problem with white people, is the same as if someone said the problem with Jews, Catholics, Mexicans, Blacks, ect...

If you want to engage in a conversation about race, you need to keep to specifics. Not all cops are racist, but that cop who killed a black guy who was unarmed and placed a gun on him, probably was.

This is just semantics. Not everyone has to write "some white people" every single time when making a generalisation. Again, if you feel like you're being attacked even if you don't perpetrate such bad practices, maybe question why that is cause it's more on you than others.

The issues with cops is systematic, and racism is institutionalised on every level in the police that you can't just separate the individual from the system. It becomes an instinct. When you hear there's a black male in the vicinity, and are automatically thinking about your gun, that's become ingrained on a muscle memory level.

 

[Clefargle]

Yeah I've lived in the US and EU

Many white people really have a fragile self image culturally. It's something that I've seen lead to overreaction online and off. It's got to stop and there is no excuse for freaking out just because someone acknowledges our privilege

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I do not agree:
You choose to become a cop or engage in a faith.
U don't choose to be born Black, white or LGBT.

That is why I said that is easier to generalize abstract ideas. Race is not abstract.

You seem to imply (forgive me if otherwise), that by choosing to be a cop, they are choosing to be corrupt or racists. (This is based on my example.) The vast majority of enforcement officers are not racist or corrupt. That weakens your argument against corruption, because you now pit all those people against you. If you however point to "The problem with X Cops.." you have a much better chance of getting support for change.

This is just semantics. Not everyone has to write "some white people" every single time when making a generalisation. Again, if you feel like you're being attacked even if you don't perpetrate such bad practices, maybe question why that is cause it's more on you than others.

The issues with cops is systematic, and racism is institutionalised on every level in the police that you can't just separate the individual from the system. It becomes an instinct. When you hear there's a black male in the vicinity, and are automatically thinking about your gun, that's become ingrained on a muscle memory level.

I never said some. I said X. X is specific. It could be location, group or individuals. That is a much better argument because you are grounded. You don't give ground for people to dismissive out right. You leave it open for people on both sides to discuss.

If you are X and I say that all Xs are Y, you are going to be dismissive at best. The internet is great for people to shout down to each-other. The people who will respond, will probably be the professionally offended or SJW. The people you want to reach, have already dismissed the argument and those you engage are already fixed in their ways.

The problem with generalizing cops and claiming it is all institutionalized on every level, is why aren't all cops just being racist to every black person they can. Why are there black/Latino/Asian/Middle Eastern officers? How can some ethnic officers rise to the highest ranks of authority? I can poke holes in your argument till kingdom come.

Give me a specific instance and I will have much less ground to maneuver.

X: "All XX are Evil!"

Y: "Yeah but what about the one XX that saved your daughter?"

X: "Well maybe not that one."

This is a very streamlined argument that would probably never come up as simply as how I present it. However it serves the point. X first statement is immediately defeated by one statement by Y. X is forced to admit or forced to exit. Likewise it doesn't have to be saving someone, it could be to any part of life.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

I honestly have no faith in America when it comes to race. I think the best chance white youth have into starting to 'get' race is when they're exposed directly to minorities.

Unfortunately, due to whites being around 70% and the legacy of and continued segregation in the country, there are too many homogeneously white communities. All they tend to be left with is misinformation about other races, drilled into their heads by either upbringing, their community, or society at large.

And when whites become less of a population, anti-blackness will still be pervasive here due to it being a worldwide phenomenon and common amongst some immigrant groups. I see things improving for other minorities but Blacks and Natives have the biggest hurdles when it comes to centuries of terrible PR.

 

[dragonfart28]

Many white people are fully aware that they are in a position of authority and they are also acutely aware that in order to maintain that position they need to give the appearance that they are victims.

It's naive to think they are ignorant of their privilege. They are, in fact, intentionally acting to maintain it.

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

As a white person, I want to do my part to improve race relations in this country but I have no idea how.

The best way is to educated uniformed white people about their privilege and killing myths.
These people put their heads in the sand when it comes to understanding other people because they don't want their perfect bubble burst.

Basically taking on White Supremacy.

 

[TBiddy]

This is just semantics. Not everyone has to write "some white people" every single time when making a generalisation. Again, if you feel like you're being attacked even if you don't perpetrate such bad practices, maybe question why that is cause it's more on you than others.

I honestly think this is not the way to have an adult discussion. If you start an argument making a broad generalisation about white/black/asian people or lesbians/gays/transgenders or whatever, you're bound to get some negative feedback.

There's a gigantic difference between "White people are racist" and "Some white people are racist". If you say to a black man, that "Black people are criminal", what reaction do you expect to get? And how different would the reaction be, if you instead said "Some black people are criminal"?

If someone came up to me and said "White guys with curly hair are less intelligent than the rest of the society", I'd probably get annoyed. If they instead said "Some white guys with curly hair are less intelligent than the rest of the society", it's an entirely different thing.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Blanked

 

[diaspora]

 

[Messofanego]

The problem with generalizing cops and claiming it is all institutionalized on every level, is why aren't all cops just being racist to every black person they can. Why are there black/Latino/Asian/Middle Eastern officers? How can some ethnic officers rise to the highest ranks of authority? I can poke holes in your argument till kingdom come.

Give me a specific instance and I will have much less ground to maneuver.

X: "All XX are Evil!"

Y: "Yeah but what about the one XX that saved your daughter?"

X: "Well maybe not that one."

This is a very streamlined argument that would probably never come up as simply as how I present it. However it serves the point. X first statement is immediately defeated by one statement by Y. X is forced to admit or forced to exit. Likewise it doesn't have to be saving someone, it could be to any part of life.

Being a police officer is still a job, just like people of all colours work in fields where they are discriminated against because it's still bringing in money to keep a roof over their heads. You don't think people of colour, when they're police, can't become racist against their own? That's just ignorance.

If you don't believe there is institutionalised racism in the police, then that is a whole other can of worms about not knowing how they operate in terms of fraternity and protecting their own. Whistleblowing is seen as a huge offence inside the police, which is why "good" cops don't speak up about the racism and corruption. Watch a few documentaries about institutionalised racism and corruption in the police.

The Secret Policeman (UK) - https://vimeo.com/58780304
Crisis of Distrust: Police and Community in Toronto (Canada) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u627BsqA5BM
Copwatch: These Streets Are Watching (Denver, Cinncinati, Berkeley) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxIRL3QCaRI
Precinct Seven Five (80s New York but still relevant today) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM-cMZjqQ0M

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Blanked

There was nothing offensive about that post. If you yourself aren't racist then the condemnation in the post doesn't apply to you. Get a grip.

 

[Oppo]

The best way is to educated uniformed white people about their privilege and killing myths.
These people put their heads in the sand when it comes to understanding other people because they don't want their perfect bubble burst.

Basically taking on White Supremacy.

I agree with this.

We will still get the occasional MLK quote about how disappointing "white allies" are lobbed at us, but this is the crux of it, i think.

It's up to us to "flip" the white folks who are living in an unexamined or otherwise unconsidered way, when it comes to race and recognizing privilege.

I honestly think this is not the way to have an adult discussion. If you start an argument making a broad generalisation about white/black/asian people or lesbians/gays/transgenders or whatever, you're bound to get some negative feedback.

There's a gigantic difference between "White people are racist" and "Some white people are racist". If you say to a black man, that "Black people are criminal", what reaction do you expect to get? And how different would the reaction be, if you instead said "Some black people are criminal"?

If someone came up to me and said "White guys with curly hair are less intelligent than the rest of the society", I'd probably get annoyed. If they instead said "Some white guys with curly hair are less intelligent than the rest of the society", it's an entirely different thing.

Great post. The generalizations are problematic. In any direction. Even when they are true, they are problematic, because you're going to inevitably group people, semantically. And I see this constantly on GAF; folks project their own experiences onto others projecting their experiences and inevitably end up at odds - they are both fighting ghosts of past experience, and often talking right past each other.

So yeah even though i know not to take it personally when someone refers to "white fragility", or "this is why convos with white people fail", i don't think those frames are good. and this is where Decoded blows its message and tone, for me anyways. those videos, well meaning though they may be, are condescending and profoundly unfunny. Sam Bee knows how to get this right (yay for a Toronto girl!).

 

[NoblesseOblige]

If someone came up to me and said "White guys with curly hair are less intelligent than the rest of the society", I'd probably get annoyed. If they instead said "Some white guys with curly hair are less intelligent than the rest of the society", it's an entirely different thing.

Why would you be annoyed by the first? Is there a systemic issue of people trying to take away the rights of white guys with curly hair? Or police profiling them?

 

[Dalibor68]

Why would you be annoyed by the first? Is there a systemic issue of people trying to take away the rights of white guys with curly hair? Or police profiling them?

Why would facing systematic issues give you the right to generalize everybody else? I don't quite follow the logic.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Being a police officer is still a job, just like people of all colours work in fields where they are discriminated against because it's still bringing in money to keep a roof over their heads. You don't think people of colour, when they're police, can't become racist against their own? That's just ignorance.

I never said that. However I highly doubt that the vast majority of black officers are racist to black people. If things are the way you describe them, then why aren't they doing it all the time? This isn't the 1950s when police were actively racist. I would argue that to assume that all officers are racist is far more ignorant.

If you don't believe there is institutionalised racism in the police, then that is a whole other can of worms about not knowing how they operate in terms of fraternity and protecting their own. Whistleblowing is seen as a huge offence inside the police, which is why "good" cops don't speak up about the racism and corruption. Watch a few documentaries about institutionalised racism and corruption in the police.

<Links>

Cops was just an example I used, but we can talk about it. I would say there is a problem with racism in law enforcement. I agree that whistleblowing also considered a taboo is a problem.

However you weaken your argument by saying the police. Because when you say that you are saying every police officer. Your argument has become weaker because everyone can point out instances of officers that are not racist. The links you provided are all about specific cases of racism taking place. They work because they focus on an issue and provide context. Without context any argument can be dismissed easily.

My point is that if you want change you need to focus on instances of racism and open discussion about them. This will eventually lead to change across the board. If you just open with x are racists or have racist tendencies then you will just be dismissed.