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[MistakenMobius]

Obviously yes even though that has zero to with the point he was making. Countries that benefited from destructive foreign policy and acts have a responsibility to try and make amends for their action and avoid exploiting those that they have harmed.

Is this you just trying to pretend you don't ever have to take responsibility for anything?

How do u do a rank stuff?
Is there any prescription?
i wasn't born, don't vote, don't pay taxes, don't get subsidies nor live in my home country.
I pay taxes in my country of residence but cannot vote but it's probable that my money is spent maybe in international relief or maybe in cost of foreign operation, am i becoming responsible of the history of this country?

Should i consider that any american (whatever their colour) who pay taxes is supporting the white supremacy?

 

[molnizzle]

America doesn't do that. Not with slavery, not with segregation, not with any type of systemic oppression that exists. When minorities bring it up, we're told to shut up, to do things in a certain way, to be patient, wait for our turn, etc. We have to tread around our oppressors and teach them because it makes them flip the fuck out when we mention that all of this shit that has happened in America still impacts minorities today and white people still benefit.

White people still benefit, but not because they're willfully trying to suppress the rights of others. Our privilege is a side effect of things that occurred many years before our birth, things that were out of our control. I wish that slavery had never happened (and everything else that occurred afterward) but here we are.

It takes a reasonably intelligent, introspective individual to be able to see a comment about "their people" and not take it as a personal attack. I don't get offended when I see comments about white people now, but I used to. I consider myself to be fairly smart though. The vast majority of human beings... aren't. It shouldn't be a surprise that most respond harshly when they are singled out because of something out of their control.

...and yes, I realize that this is something minorities have faced for many years. That's kinda the point. Nobody likes to feel like that.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

How do u do a rank stuff?
Is there any prescription?
i wasn't born, don't vote, don't pay taxes, don't get subsidies nor live in my home country.
I pay taxes in my country of residence but cannot vote but it's probable that my money is spent maybe in international relief or maybe in cost of foreign operation, am i becoming responsible of the history of this country?

Should i consider that any american (whatever their colour) who pay taxes is supporting the white supremacy?

I dunno what the fuck you are asking but none of this is relevant. We have a responsibility to stand up for each other and not be shitty. I'm not gonna fucking get into a back and forth with you where you try to pretend nothing matters because "your country did bad things to other countries so oh well". Whatever your point is just come out and say it. But if it's what I think you are getting at no, we are talking about white supremacy in the western world, stay on topic.

White people still benefit, but not because they're willfully trying to suppress the rights of others. Our privilege is a side effect of things that occurred many years before our birth, things that were out of our control. I wish that slavery had never happened (and everything else that occurred afterward) but here we are.

It takes a reasonably intelligent, introspective individual to be able to see a comment about "their people" and not take it as a personal attack. I don't get offended when I see comments about white people now, but I used to. I consider myself to be fairly smart though. The vast majority of human beings... aren't. It shouldn't be a surprise that most respond harshly when they are singled out because of something out of their control.

...and yes, I realize that this is something minorities have faced for many years. That's kinda the point. Nobody likes to feel like that.

If white people want to have a real discussion about race, they should be able to come at it with some genuine perspective. Minorities should not have to throw caveats such as "not all white people", "I don't blame you for slavery" blah blah blah. Like come on, this is the kind of stuff I just find so ridiculous. It's like whenever the discussion of race comes up, we need to need to start with "it's not your fault, feel good (hug)". None of that actually says anything about the real topic, don't talk about it if you can't do it without needing to reaffirm a worth that the topic never questioned. No discussion about race is out here demonizing white people. But yet it is as though (and you've done it here with this "I wish it didn't happen", "It was a long time ago") we need to ease all guilt before we even talk about the effects even though no one has even implied people should feel guilty.

 

[Skilletor]

How do u do a rank stuff?
Is there any prescription?
i wasn't born, don't vote, don't pay taxes, don't get subsidies nor live in my home country.
I pay taxes in my country of residence but cannot vote but it's probable that my money is spent maybe in international relief or maybe in cost of foreign operation, am i becoming responsible of the history of this country?

Should i consider that any american (whatever their colour) who pay taxes is supporting the white supremacy?

If you have a point, you should get to it.

White people still benefit, but not because they're willfully trying to suppress the rights of others. Our privilege is a side effect of things that occurred many years before our birth, things that were out of our control. I wish that slavery had never happened (and everything else that occurred afterward) but here we are.

It takes a reasonably intelligent, introspective individual to be able to see a comment about "their people" and not take it as a personal attack. I don't get offended when I see comments about white people now, but I used to. I consider myself to be fairly smart though. The vast majority of human beings... aren't. It shouldn't be a surprise that most respond harshly when they are singled out because of something out of their control.

...and yes, I realize that this is something minorities have faced for many years. That's kinda the point. Nobody likes to feel like that.

I'm too tired to always talk in caveats. I've got family to think after, friends that are in danger because they're gay and want to show affection in public. My wife and I made the very hurtful decision not to have a child with the upcoming presidency.

So forgive me if I don't give a fuck about the white person that can't understand when I talk about the people trying to keep us down, I don't mean those that are trying to help. I can't juggle all of this activism. Something has to drop.

 

[LionPride]

How do u do a rank stuff?
Is there any prescription?
i wasn't born, don't vote, don't pay taxes, don't get subsidies nor live in my home country.
I pay taxes in my country of residence but cannot vote but it's probable that my money is spent maybe in international relief or maybe in cost of foreign operation, am i becoming responsible of the history of this country?

Should i consider that any american (whatever their colour) who pay taxes is supporting the white supremacy?

Is their a point here? I'm looking for one and comin up with zilch

 

[MistakenMobius]

Is this you just trying to pretend you don't ever have to take responsibility for anything?

I think u shouldn't judge for the sins of the father, this would be putting in jail sons of criminals

And it's not god damn fragility when you aren't benefiting from those actions to this day and denying it when it's spoken of. Explain to me where Muslims have gained huge advantage in society through ISIS (in western culture it is flat out the opposite),

No blasphemy allowed
Like US evangelicals christian that got trump elected, muslims have managed to avoid any criticism since any perceived slight will warrant a violent attack. (My father was shot and spent weeks in hospital for daring criticism islam in Turkey 25 years ago)

what does being Hutu in Belgium have to do with being the beneficiary of social structures?

Having easier access to a passport to leave the country

 

[Messofanego]

This is from my own personal experience having these conversations, both as the white person in question, and as the white guy looking at this other white person like "dude, no, wait."

Discussions about race relations with some white people break down because sometimes, a white person is already holding a self-congratulatory position for having decided to engage at all. And they will be waiting for either outright, or more subtle, acknowledgement of that generosity.

If you do not reward that white person for allowing themselves to be placed in a vulnerable position when they didn't have to, they will close down and begin retaliating and pointing out the lack of tolerance being shown them and their suggestions.

A lot of white people really just want to be reassured while they're messing up that even with these demerits on their record, they're still one of the good ones. Because they know they're one of the good ones, down deep, and if you can't be trusted to recognize that, how the hell can you be trusted to exchange ideas in good faith?

So before you can challenge their beliefs and their worldview, you have to make sure that somewhere in the initial discussion period, you give them propers for even coming to the table. Once you do that, you're free to continue and even criticize, now that they are safe in their knowledge they're one of the good ones.

They will shut down if told they're one of the bad ones. But if you're telling them they're a good one, but here's how you become a better one, then they're all good.

Again: I've been this dude before. I've seen this guy since. I've talked to this guy, and as annoying as it may be, most of the time any progress made is made because I made sure to reassure the guy that he had not stepped outside of his bubble in vain, and that I understood him and where he was coming from.

It's some handholdy shit, for sure. Which makes usage of terms like "snowflake" and "participation trophy" that much harder to let go when they inevitably pop out.

Which gives legitimacy to white fragility, that you have to treat white people with kid gloves or pat them on the back for even wanting to engage instead of them being fully prepared by themselves before they get to the table. I totally get that, but I hope they're coming to the table in good faith and don't run off at the earliest prickly touch.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I think u shouldn't judge for the sins of the father, this would be putting in jail sons of criminals

If your wealth is generated because your father robbed multiple people, you don't get to keep all that wealth and be like "not my sin". That's fucking naive.

No blasphemy allowed
Like US evangelicals christian that got trump elected, muslims have managed to avoid any criticism since any perceived slight will warrant a violent attack. (My father was shot and spent weeks in hospital for daring criticism islam in Turkey 25 years ago)

Okay I see you now

Having easier access to a passport to leave the country

Yes having a good passport is a factor of birth. What exactly is your point?

 

[MistakenMobius]

the other reason is probably because here " White Fragility" is a slang term to says that someone is a "victime" that can be hit and mugged with impunity because white people don't defend themselves.
i guess i do an association with the term and that is makes it much more loaded in french.

 

[MistakenMobius]

If your wealth is generated because your father robbed multiple people, you don't get to keep all that wealth and be like "not my sin". That's fucking naive.

That's naive but as far as i know we don't execute anymore sons of murderer nor make them slaves to the family of the victim

Yes having a good passport is a factor of birth. What exactly is your point?

No: in Rwanda: it was one country but depending of your ethnicity (hutu or tutsi) stated on ur Id, the administration would potentially be antagonist.

 

[Sai-kun]

What the hell does white fragility have to do with executions?

I am...lost..

 

[molnizzle]

If white people want to have a real discussion about race, they should be able to come at it with some genuine perspective. Minorities should not have to throw caveats such as "not all white people", "I don't blame you for slavery" blah blah blah. Like come on, this is the kind of stuff I just find so ridiculous. It's like whenever the discussion of race comes up, we need to need to start with "it's not your fault, feel good (hug)". None of that actually says anything about the real topic, don't talk about it if you can't do it without needing to reaffirm a worth that the topic never questioned. No discussion about race is out here demonizing white people. But yet it is as though (and you've done it here with this "I wish it didn't happen", "It was a long time ago") we need to ease all guilt before we even talk about the effects even though no one has even implied people should feel guilty.

I know that no discussion about race is out there demonizing white people, but that's how it feels when you make generalized statements about "white people" as if we're a monolith. I'm not saying that you need to throw out caveats whenever you discuss this topic. I'm just saying that if you generalize that your struggles are the fault of "white people," some are going to take it as an attack. I'm sorry if you find that ridiculous but that's just the way it is.

So forgive me if I don't give a fuck about the white person that can't understand when I talk about the people trying to keep us down, I don't mean those that are trying to help. I can't juggle all of this activism. Something has to drop.

I'm not trying to justify white fragility by any means. Just explaining why it exists, and why it likely won't go away without changing the way we talk about certain things. That's really the core of it, semantics. It's a stupid thing to get worked up over... but people are stupid. =/

I've got family to think after, friends that are in danger because they're gay and want to show affection in public. My wife and I made the very hurtful decision not to have a child with the upcoming presidency.

This seems a bit hyperbolic though, honestly. We've got a long way to go but we're still making progress. It's not like we used to live in a society where gay people showed PDA openly, but we've now regressed to a more primitive culture. It's better for them now then it was even 5 years ago, and it will hopefully continue to get better despite the orange buffoon being in the White House.

The decision to bring a child into the world is an incredibly personal one so I hesitate to even bring it up. That's between you and your wife.

 

[Not]

“People who spent the last 10 years mocking people for wanting safe spaces suddenly want safety.”

Funny how that works

 

[MrToughPants]

I read the title as White fertility..

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I know that no discussion about race is out there demonizing white people, but that's how it feels when you make generalized statements about "white people" as if we're a monolith. I'm not saying that you need to throw out caveats whenever you discuss this topic. I'm just saying that if you generalize that your struggles are the fault of "white people," some are going to take it as an attack. I'm sorry if you find that ridiculous but that's just the way it is.

If they take it as an attack then I don't need to converse with that person any further.

This is same victimization men take when women come at them for some shit they did. No one needs to be coddled or made comfortable. Either that person nuts up or they were too into their feelings to really be there for me in the first place.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I know that no discussion about race is out there demonizing white people, but that's how it feels when you make generalized statements about "white people" as if we're a monolith. I'm not saying that you need to throw out caveats whenever you discuss this topic. I'm just saying that if you generalize that your struggles are the fault of "white people," some are going to take it as an attack. I'm sorry if you find that ridiculous but that's just the way it is.

Which is it? Is it you feel demonizef or you are demonized? Because you just flip flop here and I dunno what you are arguing. Me personally, I dont't discuss race with white people period because I'm not using kid gloves in a serious discussion. Like people that have to talk about racism have to be treated with kid gloves but people who live it need to extend even more consideration to not hurt feelings. That's fucking stupid and I am not doing that. Aint no discussions about race come out and just say "yup it is all white peoples fault". We all know that is bullshit, why are you even presenting that here?

I'm not trying to justify white fragility by any means.

Yes you are.

Just explaining why it exists, and why it likely won't go away without changing the way we talk about certain things.

White fragility is not going away because there is no inherent need for the majority to change or want to change. It is not because someone didnt address white people nice enough. Come on. You think you've magically discovered something no minority ever thought of?

That's really the core of it, semantics. It's a stupid thing to get worked up over... but people are stupid. =/

If it was semantics this would have been solved ages ago. Really now. It's almost insulting that the reason minorities cant reach the white majority is because we never thought of saying it in a different way.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

You don't have access to the same experiences as people facing everyday racism and living in White supremacy. You aren't exposed, at least explicitly, to what it means to be oppressed by your visible identity. So in that sense, you simply do not have the same epistemological access as others do. Therefore, there is more reason to listen to marginalized people and groups about issues of social justice and the types of marginalization they experience.

The idea that first-person experience of being discriminated against necessarily gives one more insight into the whole edifice of discrimination, itself, than being a part of the group engaging in said discrimination, and that those not discriminated against must necessarily roll up and absorb said views is, itself, a bias, especially when so much of modern social justice rhetoric revolves around suppositions of what white people are thinking and feeling and what they is purported to be what they ought to be thinking and feeling

 

[molnizzle]

If they take it as an attack then I don't need to converse with that person any further.

This is same victimization men take when women come at them for some shit they did. No one needs to be coddled or made comfortable. Either that person nuts up or they were too into their feelings to really be there for me in the first place.

I'm not asking to be coddled or made comfortable. I'm not even asking that you stop making blanket generalizations. I'm just saying that if you do make blanket generalizations, some people are gonna take that as an attack. That shouldn't come as a surprise.

As for whether you "need" to converse with them or not, it's hard to say just how much of the white population of the U.S. falls into that demographic. I'm inclined to think it's a very large portion of it. Anecdotally, it seems that way. I do live in Texas though.

edit:

Which is it? Is it you feel demonizef or you are demonized? Because you just flip flop here and I dunno what you are arguing.

Not sure what I flip flopped on, but it was always my intent to explain why some white people feel attacked whenever blanket generalizations are made about them, so it shouldn't be a surprise (as it seems to be to some in this thread) when certain white folks take it as an attack.

Aint no discussions about race come out and just say "yup it is all white peoples fault". We all know that is bullshit, why are you even presenting that here?

I see posts like this all the time right here on NeoGAF. That's what I'm addressing here. Stuff like "Thanks a lot, white people." etc.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Which gives legitimacy to white fragility, that you have to treat white people with kid gloves or pat them on the back for even wanting to engage instead of them being fully prepared by themselves before they get to the table. I totally get that, but I hope they're coming to the table in good faith and don't run off at the earliest prickly touch.

To clarify: I'm not in support of that handholdy bullshit. Just calling out how it was when I was young & dumb, and what it is I continue to see when I talk to some people about their bullshit, specifically in regards to the thread title and the article in the OP.

It's frustrating and annoying and an unnecessary hindrance. And a lot of white people do not wanna hear it. We want that pat on the back first before anything gets too deep.

I'm not saying we should get it, or that we deserve it. Just that the base entitlement is often not even recognized by us, much less questioned.

for example: The post above me where dude seems to be somewhat burnt by the idea a joke like "Thanks a lot, white people" doesn't come with some sort of disclaimer or acknowledgement that he specifically isn't one of those white people.

Like, if you're secure in the knowledge you aren't one of those white people, you shouldn't need that outside validation paid to you up-front before continuing to engage, right?

 

[molnizzle]

for example: The post above me where dude seems to be somewhat burnt by the idea a joke like "Thanks a lot, white people" doesn't come with some sort of disclaimer or acknowledgement that he specifically isn't one of those white people.

Like, if you're secure in the knowledge you aren't one of those white people, you shouldn't need that outside validation paid to you up-front before continuing to engage, right?

Right, I wasn't talking about myself specifically. Earlier I mentioned that those types of comments don't bother me. My point was just that they seemingly do bother a large portion of the white population. At least, that's how it seems to me from interacting with my peers.

 

[Malakai]

I wish that the movement went with "Black Lives [Don't Matter" instead of "Black Lives Matter"...

The expression with "don't", I think, makes it harder to falsely re-frame. People couldn't counter w/ "All Lives Matter". Well, at least, they wouldn't have a hasty easy counter attack with "All Lives Don't Matter" w/ out discussion.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Right, I wasn't talking about myself specifically. Earlier I mentioned that those types of comments don't bother me. My point was just that they seemingly do bother a large portion of the white population. At least, that's how it seems to me from interacting with my peers.

Hah! So now you & I are basically on a run of posts where we're both like "Hey now, wait... I mean other white people suck about this shit."

Just a pair of sunglasses-rocking beardy white dudes pitching in on a topic that doesn't necessarily need our input.

The story of the internet.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Racism is an incredibly heavy topic loaded with moral judgments and a history of some of the worst humanity has to offer. It has roots in every facet of our lives, including our friends, our family, and ourselves. It's something ugly and wrong that even the most "woke" white people will benefit from from the day they're born to the day they die.

Is it really fragility to find difficulty in having a conversation about something like that?
Is it really coddling to develop language that better facilitates discussing it?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not sure what I flip flopped on, but it was always my intent to explain why some white people feel attacked whenever blanket generalizations are made about them, so it shouldn't be a surprise (as it seems to be to some in this thread) when certain white folks take it as an attack.

You think you can have a discussion about white fragility and not start with any basic assumptions? If this is the argument people are using to justify their feelings then go do something else while the people who actually wanna have a real discussion talk because this is not a serious or valid position. No generalizations? Racism is a social construct. You cant fucking seriously argue no generalizations.

I see posts like this all the time right here on NeoGAF. That's what I'm addressing here. Stuff like "Thanks a lot, white people." etc.

If gaf is your frame of reference you arent even arguing from a position of reality. Gaf is not the average discussion of race.

 

[molnizzle]

You think you can have a discussion about white fragility and not start with any basic assumptions? If this is the argument people are using to justify their feelings then go do something else while the people who actually wanna have a real discussion talk because this is not a serious or valid position. No generalizations? Racism is a social construct. You cant fucking seriously argue no generalizations.

I'm not even sure what this means, honestly. I'm not trying to "argue" anything here, I'm just explaining why certain rhetoric gets a response out of certain people. I speak from a position of experience because those comments used to get the same response out of me. After a long period of self-reflection I came to realize where I was wrong, but I believe that I'm the exception, not the rule.

As for using GAF as a frame of reference... GAF is where we're posting right now, so yes, that was my frame of reference.

 

[Sunster]

Racism is an incredibly heavy topic loaded with moral judgments and a history of some of the worst humanity has to offer. It has roots in every facet of our lives, including our friends, our family, and ourselves. It's something ugly and wrong that even the most "woke" white people will benefit from from the day they're born to the day they die.

Is it really fragility to find difficulty in having a conversation about something like that?
Is it really coddling to develop language that better facilitates discussing it?

White fragility is more than just difficulty discussing racism. watch this video. https://youtu.be/nE8nQZPfYpY

tldw: White fragility is when discussions of equality feel like attacks on you and oppression of white people.

 

[Lime]

The idea that first-person experience of being discriminated against necessarily gives one more insight into the whole edifice of discrimination, itself, than being a part of the group engaging in said discrimination, and that those not discriminated against must necessarily roll up and absorb said views is, itself, a bias, especially when so much of modern social justice rhetoric revolves around suppositions of what white people are thinking and feeling and what they is purported to be what they ought to be thinking and feeling

I entirely fail to see how it is possible to refute that first-person experience with white supremacy grants more insight into what it means to live in white supremacy. More experience means more knowledge and insight, wouldn't you agree?

There's a reason it's ridiculous for men to butt into a woman's conversation about what it means to be a woman facing sexism.

 

[Messofanego]

I entirely fail to see how it is possible to refute that first-person experience with white supremacy grants more insight into what it means to live in white supremacy. More experience means more knowledge and insight, wouldn't you agree?

There's a reason it's ridiculous for men to butt into a woman's conversation about what it means to be a woman facing sexism.

Or even worse, men taking over what happens with a woman's body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17RJfgsTQUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRMVJcwmF5M

Sometimes you just have to listen and learn, instead of trying to equate your experiences and give advice without the intimate knowledge usually gained from interacting with people of that group the issue is about.

 

[Dalibor68]

White fragility is more than just difficulty discussing racism. watch this video. https://youtu.be/nE8nQZPfYpY

tldw: White fragility is when discussions of equality feel like attacks on you and oppression of white people.

That might apply in cases like the police donut one. But actively and continuosly being assholes by generalizing "white people" (and I'm not talking about joking stuff like "white people can't eat spicy things", but things such as "white people are inherently racist", "white people are delusional" or similar things) and then trying to stamp a label of "white fragility" on people who don't just put up with that is ridiculous. "Accept that group x has an exclusive right of generalizing you based on your skin colour or otherwise you're a fragile whitey" - sorry, no.

I still haven't seen any logical explanation of why facing systematic issues supposedly gives individuals of a group the right to be assholes and generalize other people, other than this "punching up"-nonsense or "lol white fragility, deal with it".

 

[Gnome]

That might apply in cases like the police donut one. But actively and continuosly being assholes by generalizing "white people" (and I'm not talking about joking stuff like "white people can't eat spicy things", but things such as "white people are inherently racist", "white people are delusional" or similar things) and then trying to stamp a label of "white fragility" on people who don't just put up with that is ridiculous. "Accept that group x has an exclusive right of generalizing you based on your skin colour or otherwise you're a fragile whitey" - sorry, no.

I still haven't seen any logical explanation of why facing systematic issues supposedly gives individuals of a group the right to be assholes and generalize other people, other than this "punching up"-nonsense or "lol white fragility, deal with it".

I'm sorry, but is your reaction satire? Because it sure feels like it is.

Edit: You don't have to answer that btw, I'm fairly certain the entire thread is satire.

 

[Messofanego]

I'm sorry, but is your reaction satire? Because it sure feels like it is.

Edit: You don't have to answer that btw, I'm fairly certain the entire thread is satire.

This thread is very real.

 

[Dalibor68]

I'm sorry, but is your reaction satire? Because it sure feels like it is.

Edit: You don't have to answer that btw, I'm fairly certain the entire thread is satire.

I'm not sure what makes you think it is satire. If you can not differentiate between a police officer getting offended over a BLM donut topping (in cases like this I could see the term "white fragility" functioning) versus people not putting up with insulting generalizations (e.g. "white people are racists", sometimes then followed by "no I don't mean you, you're one of the good ones"), then I don't know what to tell you. Ironically you'd be generalizing again as it implies that anyone who is indeed not willing to put up with insulting generalizations does also automatically support bullshit-reactions like that of the police officer.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Trying to find the lie

 

[Sunster]

I'm not sure what makes you think it is satire. If you can not differentiate between a police officer getting offended over a BLM donut topping (in cases like this I could see the term "white fragility" functioning) versus people not putting up with insulting generalizations (e.g. "white people are racists", sometimes then followed by "no I don't mean you, you're one of the good ones"), then I don't know what to tell you. Ironically you'd be generalizing again as it implies that anyone who is indeed not willing to put up with insulting generalizations does also automatically support bullshit-reactions like that of the police officer.

read the post above this

 

[Dalibor68]

read the post above this

So 'white people' as a whole are oppressing 'black people' and 'white people' are equivalent to an abusive husband that beats his wife? Is that a correct summary of the picture?

 

[think]

_

 

[GeordieMark]

Which gives legitimacy to white fragility, that you have to treat white people with kid gloves or pat them on the back for even wanting to engage instead of them being fully prepared by themselves before they get to the table. I totally get that, but I hope they're coming to the table in good faith and don't run off at the earliest prickly touch.

Its not really white fragility though. Its human nature.

 

[Sunster]

So 'white people' as a whole are oppressing 'black people' and 'white people' are equivalent to an abusive husband that beats his wife? Is that a correct summary of the picture?

That post does not say "white people" anywhere. why did you put that in quotes? You benefit from white supremacy. that's what it says. That is a fact.

 

[TBiddy]

So 'white people' as a whole are oppressing 'black people' and 'white people' are equivalent to an abusive husband that beats his wife? Is that a correct summary of the picture?

Also, slavery in the old days is absolutely comparable to the current situation. At least, according to Erin White.

I assume that she believes, that I "benefit from her oppression" (since I'm a white male). According to her, that gives her carte blanche to say, basically, whatever she wants to me. Perhaps this is just my white fragility talking, but exactly what does she hope to accomplish by that?

 

[Dalibor68]

That post does not say "white people" anywhere. why did you put that in quotes? You benefit from white supremacy. that's what it says. That is a fact.

"Telling POC that ...." kinda implies that he opposite is meant as non-POC, thus mostly 'white people'. I put it in quotes because I don't like these generalizations as groups of people are not connected via hivemind (which is why I'm also arguing against the generalization of "muslims are xyz" in the other thread).

 

[Sunster]

Also, slavery in the old days is absolutely comparable to the current situation. At least, according to Erin White.

I assume that she believes, that I "benefit from her oppression" (since I'm a white male). According to her, that gives her carte blanche to say, basically, whatever she wants to me. Perhaps this is just my white fragility talking, but exactly what does she hope to accopmlish by that?

Let me know when a black person comes up to you and talks shit about you personally. Then I'll agree that, that isn't cool. You 2 seriously think that you are being personally attacked right now because a black person said, "we don't need to be nice to our oppressors." How on Earth does that offend you?

"Telling POC that ...." kinda implies that he opposite is meant as non-POC, thus mostly 'white people'. I put it in quotes because I don't like these generalizations as groups of people are not connected via hivemind (which is why I'm also arguing against the generalization of "muslims are xyz" in the other thread).

I'm not offended by her post. I've never heard of her, and it's the internet. It takes much more than that for me to be offended. I'm just arguing that making generalizations about an entire group of people is stupid and not helping anyone.

Look. I see where you are coming from. You don't wanna be just another "white person" you don't wanna be the bad guy. You are not. Erin White is not advocating being mean to all white people. No one that I know of is. They are advocating a "taking off the kid gloves" when they encounter instances of racism or when they discuss racism and oppression to white audiences. If you do not say and do racist things, they do not mean you. You are not the enemy here. So there's no need to be defensive.

 

[Messofanego]

Trying to find the lie

Political correctness gone mad!

 

[R0ckman]

As a white person, I want to do my part to improve race relations in this country but I have no idea how.

You can't provide racists with a sanctuary. You have to be an enemy to them and let them know in your presence there is a line in the sand.

 

[TBiddy]

Let me know when a black person comes up to you and talks shit about you personally. Then I'll agree that, that isn't cool. You 2 seriously think that you are being personally attacked right now because a black person said, "we don't need to be nice to our oppressors." How on Earth does that offend you?

I'm not offended by her post. I've never heard of her, and it's the internet. It takes much more than that for me to be offended. I'm just arguing that making generalizations about an entire group of people is stupid and not helping anyone.

 

[R0ckman]

It's all about shame. These ideas and people (largely) cannot be changed. That's fantasy. The goal is for our racists to grow old and die without ever having spread their shit. My dad got the talk that if he ever says a single racist thing to my future children, he'll never see them or me again. They'll go their entire lives without knowing how he feels about black people (and it's not that they're equal human beings, let me tell you). I won't tell them either.

If enough people do it, the racist population in 50 years decreases. It's only when people teach their kids this shit that it keeps going.

I commend you. Did he self victimize when you threatened him?

 

[R0ckman]

I don't mean any ill will by speaking of this, just trying to make sense of this white fear thing, but I get the impression that some whites think that if it was an even playing field in all aspects, such as health, education and economy that they would naturally fall behind.

Because to me they imply that equality = their demise.

 

[Dalibor68]

Look. I see where you are coming from. You don't wanna be just another "white person" you don't wanna be the bad guy. You are not. Erin White is not advocating being mean to all white people. No one that I know of is. They are advocating a "taking off the kid gloves" when they encounter instances of racism or when they discuss racism and oppression to white audiences. If you do not say and do racist things, they do not mean you. You are not the enemy here. So there's no need to be defensive.

But then we are back at the "Not you, you're one of the good ones" argument, which we all know (rightfully, no matter what race) wouldn't fly if the race was substituted. And I still have not read a logical explanation (despite asking multiple times) of why facing institutional racism gives one group the right to generalize the other, aside from the 'punching-up'-explanation which is not very convincing to me at all.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I entirely fail to see how it is possible to refute that first-person experience with white supremacy grants more insight into what it means to live in white supremacy. More experience means more knowledge and insight, wouldn't you agree?

There's a reason it's ridiculous for men to butt into a woman's conversation about what it means to be a woman facing sexism.

Of course experiencing racism gives you more insight into what it is like to experience racism, that's tautological. However, the entire edifice of racism has two sides, perpetrator and target, and in the same way that a person of color has insight into the latter, I have insight into the former, having actually lived among white people and finding a great many of the arguments made about what white people are really thinking about this or that issue, about why this or that point is actually a "perfect example" of an ingrained -ism, and here's my trail of vague rhetorical breadcrumbs to prove why that's so, as ridiculous as the arguments I see white people making about how black people are really oppressing themselves with the rap music and Scarface posters.

In short, views forged collectively are virtually always highly flawed, whether on the morally right side of history or not. I choose to forge my own path because I have open to me a vast body of historical and contemporary insight from all sides of the spectrum, as well as my own experience and observation, and I trust my own intelligence to lead me to conclusions that are cogent and reasonable, even (and perhaps especially, given human history) when they differ from consensus. Especially given there is no monolith of experience or perspective amongst marginalized communities (it's funny how often one is told to "listen to _____", with the implicit understanding being that there is a specific subset of the group that is actually being referred to, and the ones who disagree or diverge not worth listening to), I refuse to suspend my own judgment for the nebulous rationale of "being a good ally" where I believe doing so would lead me astray from genuine understanding of the wider world.

 

[Sunster]

But then we are back at the "Not you, you're one of the good ones" argument, which we all know (rightfully, no matter what race) wouldn't fly if the race was substituted. And I still have not read a logical explanation (despite asking multiple times) of why facing institutional racism gives one group the right to generalize the other, aside from the 'punching-up'-explanation which is not very convincing to me at all.

White people are the majority and every white person benefits from white supremacy. So when addressing racism and oppression, saying "white people" and not specific people is fine. It doesn't hurt anyone.That is just one example of "taking off the kid gloves". White people need to get over "being generalized by race" i mean come on, we literally created the concept of race and now we are offended when we get grouped? The fact is generalizations will exist as long as white supremacy exists. I would get used to being one of the "white people" if I were you. Do what you can to eliminate racism if you are so passionate about individualism.

 

[R0ckman]

I never said that. However I highly doubt that the vast majority of black officers are racist to black people. If things are the way you describe them, then why aren't they doing it all the time? This isn't the 1950s when police were actively racist. I would argue that to assume that all officers are racist is far more ignorant.



Cops was just an example I used, but we can talk about it. I would say there is a problem with racism in law enforcement. I agree that whistleblowing also considered a taboo is a problem.

However you weaken your argument by saying the police. Because when you say that you are saying every police officer. Your argument has become weaker because everyone can point out instances of officers that are not racist. The links you provided are all about specific cases of racism taking place. They work because they focus on an issue and provide context. Without context any argument can be dismissed easily.

My point is that if you want change you need to focus on instances of racism and open discussion about them. This will eventually lead to change across the board. If you just open with x are racists or have racist tendencies then you will just be dismissed.

The problem here is that the whole police system is corrupt. Otherwise awol police officers would quickly be axed and would get no chance at unjust redemption. There are also a lot of cases with officers not standing up to the corruption because they just want that pay check, I assume. They sit and watch the corruption.