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Why are Samurai cooler than Knights?
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
- Start date
Zathalus
Member
Both have a great aesthetic with each having a rich history with some fascinating figures on both sides. Which you prefer is mostly a matter of opinion and subjective taste.
As for who would win in a fight between the two? If you picture classic plate armor knight with a longsword vs Sengoku period Samurai with a katana then the knight basically wins all the time. The result can vary depending on the weapons and armor each is equipped with.
As for who would win in a fight between the two? If you picture classic plate armor knight with a longsword vs Sengoku period Samurai with a katana then the knight basically wins all the time. The result can vary depending on the weapons and armor each is equipped with.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
That's not at all what that's about and you know it. Yasuke was an actual person in history and a FRIEND Oda Nobunaga... Japan has had art, shows, STATUES of Yasuke FOR DECADES... He's as much a part of their history as John Henry is of the US's (yes, there was a real John Henry)
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BlackTron
Member
West Texas CEO
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
A master stroke of trolling.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
ITT: weebs
surprised nobody has posted about le folded steel yet
surprised nobody has posted about le folded steel yet
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West Texas CEO
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
What makes a longsword more effective than a katana?
Don't Japanese swords have better build quality?
SoloCamo
Member
Katana is designed for cutting, which isn't exactly amazing against the kind of armor a knight would be wearing. The longsword will thrust right past Japanese armor. Also the shear size / weight behind a proper long sword is going to do a lot of damage even in a cutting motion.
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Wildebeest
Member
Longsword were not considered especially useful weapons in Europe, as they fell out of use before Katana did. Especially with the arms race of armour technology, Longswords were not seen as having enough ability to penetrate steel or hit hard enough. But the high craftsmanship of Katana is probably a later thing, not contemporary with longswords, as they became status symbols for the Samurai class.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Am I a weeb?
Slothbeing1209
Member
I like samurai when they doesn't wear amour, just traditional clothes + katana, maybe just wear shoulder armour not full set.
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Ikutachi
Member
With great hair.
winjer
Gold Member
That is why knights are cooler.
They spent all day drinking ale, pumping iron and having sex with frisky maidens.
I think samurai get a big boost from anime which definitely enhanced their cool. Most think of knights from old films where there are masses of folks waving swords around. But more recent films show them as the deadly foes they could be. Plus Samurai benefit from those centuries of peace honing crazy (if impractical) skills of fast draw, archery tricks, poetry, etc. Few knights existed in times of peace like that. Both had codes of honor, but I think the chivalric orders of knights are less known and understood compared to some notions of bushido.
I think a better comparison to samurai (what casual folks would think of as late period 1800s) would be renaissance swordsmen, german lansknecht, etc but that later period european stuff is waaaaay less well known in pop culture versus the earlier knight on horseback (though films often give them almost tournament level plate mail from later periods).
We need more crusade era films, the muslims of that time were pretty awesome as well. Some more greek era stuff too, I think I've seen enough viking and roman things for a few years, time to move to other periods. Give us the Thirty Years war in their full glory.
I think a better comparison to samurai (what casual folks would think of as late period 1800s) would be renaissance swordsmen, german lansknecht, etc but that later period european stuff is waaaaay less well known in pop culture versus the earlier knight on horseback (though films often give them almost tournament level plate mail from later periods).
We need more crusade era films, the muslims of that time were pretty awesome as well. Some more greek era stuff too, I think I've seen enough viking and roman things for a few years, time to move to other periods. Give us the Thirty Years war in their full glory.
Zathalus
Member
A well crafted longsword and a well crafted katana will have similar build quality. Katana has that whole folding metal thing going for it but the reason for that is that the quality of iron found in the Japanese isles was quite bad so the folding steel method was developed to address that that.
As for fighting opponents in plate armor both are quite bad at it, but the longsword has the advantage of using the pommel quite well, as well as having two cutting sides. It can also be effective in thrusting, which a katana is not great at.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And he was a native African who never even knew about the new world and listened to hip-hop too. According to UbiSoft and the DEI consultants.
Moderns audiences require modern tropes and sensitivities... wait.
Mattdaddy
Gold Member
Haha I know he was a real dude. It was more just trolling Ubisoft.
"Ubisoft: Hey you guys want an AssCreed set in feudal Japan?"
"Fans: Fuck yeah finally!!"
"Ubisoft: Done. You're a black dude that can possibly romance other dudes."
Lol thats a masterful troll on their part.
But that's not even what this thread was about. Full apologies to OP, I derailed it for no good reason. My sourness was redlining after the Dragon Age trailer this morning.
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Laptop1991
Member
I don't think so, Knight's for me every time, also Knight's are associated with the Fantasy genres i'm a fan of, ire the King Arthur and Lord of the Rings etc, Samurai while being fine, don't compare for me.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Samurai are cooler than knights because the bushido code prohibits samurai from selling microtransactions.
Jsisto
Member
I think it just comes down to a fascination with foreign cultures. They seem cooler to us because they’ve more exotic and most of us didn’t learn about Samurai Culture and Feudal Japan in school unless we were history majors. Look at nearly every classic JRPG and still many new ones being based on the western medieval period and mythology. It goes both ways.
This was always one of my favorite supplements. Probably send the blue hairs screeching about cultural appropriation today.
Scotty W
Banned
The word that no one is paying attention to is ‘cool.’
Cool is inherently anti tradition, and pro out group. Samurai have an orientalist mystique. In actual fact, samurai were obedient bald pederasts.
Monty Python is a landmark moment in the demoralization of the British people. It is impossible to be a traditional Englishman after the ministry of silt walks. The same thing happened to knights.
Cool is inherently anti tradition, and pro out group. Samurai have an orientalist mystique. In actual fact, samurai were obedient bald pederasts.
Monty Python is a landmark moment in the demoralization of the British people. It is impossible to be a traditional Englishman after the ministry of silt walks. The same thing happened to knights.
winjer
Gold Member
Regarding quality, on the high-end, build quality for katanas and longswords are similar.
But for the mid-low end, katanas are worse. This is because Europe has better sources of iron, than Japan.
This means it takes more work to treat and clean iron in Japan.
The longsword has several advantages, over the katana.
One is reach, which is a big facto in sword fights. The longsword is around 10-15 cm longer, than a katana.
Another significant advantage is the crossguard on the longsword. As it offers much greater protection for the hands, than the tsuba.
Remember that your hands are the closest thing to your opponent, so hat makes them a prime target. If your hands get hit, you lose the fight immediately.
The longsword has 2 cutting edges. The katana only has one. This means that the katana user has to be constantly realigning the blade, according to the movement of the katana.
For example, on a longsword, a knight can do a downward cut, followed immediately by an upward cut, without any change.
A samurai will have to rotate the blade or shift hand position, to do the same 2 movements.
The longsword is a better trusting weapon, because it has a straight blade. And because it tappers towards the end, it also has a lighter, faster tip.
Trusting hits are more likely to kill, than cutting. So this is also a significant advantage.
The katana is built using 2 different hardening values, for the back and for the edge.
The edge is usually around 60 Rockwell of hardness. While the back is around 40.
A longsword is around 50 Rockwell. And it uses spring steel.
Because the katana has a softer back, it requires it to be thicker. So more material has to be used there, to maintain structural integrity.
This is why the katana is shorter, despite having similar weight to a longsword.
The advantage of the katana is that it's edge is harder and sharper than a longsword. Along with the thicker edge and the slight curve of the blade, this makes the katana a better cutting weapon.
The disadvantage is that a harder edge, is also more brittle. This is why samurai tend not to block with the edge of the blade, and more with the side. And why knights tend to block with the edge of the blade.
This is also why the crossguard on a longsword has the same alignment as the blade.
Because the longsword uses spring steel, the blade can bend close to 80º and still go back to it's original shape and keep on fighting.
If the blade of a katana is forced to bend, which happens a lot in when in armored fights, the hard edge will break much faster. And the softer back, will not return to it's original shape.
This means it is easier to put a katana out of a fight, than a longsword.
Another advantage of the longsword, is that it's easier and cheaper to repair, because it only has one hardness.
If the edge of a katana is chipped it might require to redo the whole sword. The same thing, it the back is bent.
But one thing to consider is that a sword, be it for the knight or the samurai, is a backup weapon. It's not the primary, not even the secondary weapon.
So although the katana and longswords are cool, their importance in a battlefield, is relatively small.
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winjer
Gold Member
Just a small addition.
The folding method for removing impurities in steel was used all around the world. Not just in Japan.
Because Japan, had poorer sources of iron, that meant that the folding process was very important.
But folding metal has a disadvantage, as it creates sheets or layers of metal. This reduces the strength of the blade and makes it easier to chip in the direction of the folds.
This is why Damascus steel was praised all around the world, as it managed to be more effective at removing impurities and not creating such folds.
It's also why the Iberian kilns of the XVI century were such a big step in making steel, because they could fully melt iron, separating the impurities without requiring folding.
But if we want the top of the line on folding processes, than the most advanced were made by the Vikings (Nords)
Not only did they fold the iron, like the Japanese, but they also, rotated it length wise, creating more folds and removing more impurities.
Viking pattern welding is rather beautiful.
West Texas CEO
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
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I've been reading "Samurai Swords: A collectors guide" and it describes how earlier katanas were longer and often thicker, but as samurai stopped fighting "for real" and entered a long period of peace, it became shorter and more directed towards show cutting and personal conflict than open warfare.
I've little doubt that the Japanese would VERY quickly adapt if they were on the verge of a portugese or english invasion, in fact we saw them modernize aggressively in the 1900s. So seeing them lose to the lunge-thrust with a long rapier isn't surprising as that would be a very surprising tactic in an era of rituals.
Another aspect is just the sheer aesthetic beauty of japanese stuff made in the times where they could devote efforts to quality rather than pure function and speed of manufacture. I think they were able to achieve some STUNNING works of art that go far beyond what we usually see depicted in western stuff, though of course there are ornamented and decorated weapons and armor in europe as well.
winjer
Gold Member
The medieval period in Europe lasted close to a thousand years. And a bit longer in Japan.
A knight from the earlier medieval period is vastly different from one from the late medieval.
And as you say, earlier katanas are different from later ones. Another difference is that the first katanas tended to be straight.
In Europe there was greater evolution of weapons and armor, mostly because there was greater competition from different kingdoms. And even eastern invasions, such as the Huns and the Mongols.
Japan, being an island, didn't have so much pressure to evolve their weapons.
There is a saying that Japan has long periods of stagnation, followed by short, rapid periods of advancement. Currently we are seeing one of those periods, as Japan is quickly rearming itself, due to the threat of China.
But even during periods of relative stagnation, the Japanese were still able to recognize and adapt to more advanced weapons.
A good example of this is when the Portuguese brough arquebuses to Japan. The Japanese immediately bought many of them and then copied and started their own production.
Yes, we in the west have a fascination with Japan and it's culture and aesthetic.
But the same goes for Japan and China in relation to Europe. Japan especially has a soft spot for Europe in the XIX century.
And China loves the European "chique", especially France and Italy, as the epitome of class and style.
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winjer
Gold Member
The main weapons of knights is the spear or the lance.
Maces and hammers were used in good amount, but swords had greater use by knights.
Wildebeest
Member
It was no different with Samurai except they were primarily archers or spearmen in battle. Swords were a weapon for self-defence like a pistol. They were expected to know how to use them, and carrying them was part of their status, but when they were armored up it was the bow and spear which were their main weapons. Although that is one period and later on they used guns, even if some moron Samurai would charge people with guns, with nothing but a silk robe and a sword, like you would see in a film.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Samurai aesthetic is cooler
Here’s another question. If you had to sword fight one to death who are you going with? I think I would take my chances against the on average 5’2 samurai.
SirTerry-T
Member
Templar Knights have better lore.
calistan
Member
More evidence for the coolness of knights:
I was just browsing through Le Morte d'Arthur and found a chapter where Sir Lancelot ambushes a rival by wearing a dress over his armour. Nobody sees through his cunning disguise.
In another chapter, notorious badass Sir Tristram goes to a castle where the custom is for any visiting knight to compare women with the local lord. "If his lady that he bringeth be fouler than our lord's wife, she must lose her head."
Luckily the expert judges rule Tristram's companion to be "the better made", and Tristram promptly steps up to the lord's wife and smites off her head. The lord is not best pleased with this, so Sir Tristram beats the shit out of him, then decapitates him while he grovels on the floor.
Knights!
I was just browsing through Le Morte d'Arthur and found a chapter where Sir Lancelot ambushes a rival by wearing a dress over his armour. Nobody sees through his cunning disguise.
In another chapter, notorious badass Sir Tristram goes to a castle where the custom is for any visiting knight to compare women with the local lord. "If his lady that he bringeth be fouler than our lord's wife, she must lose her head."
Luckily the expert judges rule Tristram's companion to be "the better made", and Tristram promptly steps up to the lord's wife and smites off her head. The lord is not best pleased with this, so Sir Tristram beats the shit out of him, then decapitates him while he grovels on the floor.
Knights!
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Say what you will, that is some bad ass looking kit.Templar Knights mog everyone
Europe history is unparalleled yet its media depiction is, mostly, very dogshit.
On the other hand, japanese media popularized samurais.
SirTerry-T
Member
To be fair. samurais do have an unfair advantage in having Toshiro Mifune in their corner.
Who have knights got...Liam Neeson in Kingdom of Heaven?
Who have knights got...Liam Neeson in Kingdom of Heaven?
RagnarokIV
Battlebus imprisoning me \m/ >.< \m/
Man, was it the IMDB forums?
It was insane. There was a forum for every film, every actor (even minor and random extras) essentially zero moderation. Place was a warzone.
I remember Mootown, the WASP (war against studio plants) warriors and all the good stuff.
I stopped being active around the time the the shit RoboCop remake released.
But when they announced Star Wars VII, I went back and made a joke thread about a plot leak and "Han Solo dies". My joke unintentionally spoiled the film for people before it was even made.
P:axMagellanic
Member
Japanese seem to be as interested in knights as the weebs are obsessed with samurai. Probably because they both have a very alien, but bold and powerful aesthetic to eachother. Cornwall was full of Japanese tourists when I went years ago.
SirTerry-T
Member
Yeah, you get loads around Tintagel, especially.
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