Same question I asked Spons directed to you too Trickster.
Why are you not willing to donate your organs?
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Same question I asked Spons directed to you too Trickster.
BronsonLee
Member
Hell yeah, 12 year olds are real jackasse-*is socked in the face by someone with common sense*
ClosingADoor
Member
You don't know those people, so you don't know if they are good or bad. In my experience, there are a ton of more good people in the world then bad ones, so the chances of my organs going to somebody good is way higher. If you believe society is so rotten and evil, that is your opinion of course, but I think your views in that are wrong.
The "fix other things first" argument makes no sense. There are a ton of problems in the world, but if you wait for someone to fix the major problems first, then a ton of other problems will never be fixed. And doing your part in one area, does not stop somebody else from doing his in another. Somebody donating his organs does not have a negative effect on curing cancer. It does not even relate to it.
If I had enough money to spare that it would be no use to me anymore (and that is what organs are after you are death, nobody is telling you should give them away while alive) I would donate more to charity and such.
Making it an opt out system is an incentive for people to think about the issue and opt out if they come to the conclusion they don't want it.
Have you actually set this up?
The Incarnation
Member
Perhaps but that got nothing to do with me.
My own father is waiting for a kidney transplant for example.
Thought I value people's freedom of choice, so I'm not trying to guilt trip people into donating their organs.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
Can you control what organization gets it though? Most research universities and medical schools are public/state-owned affairs, no?
my mind is blown by your thought process
mcz117chief
Member
I never seriously considered it, I will ask at my school if it is ok to register as an organ donor.
Yes, whoever you set up with is who will get it. For example, if you donate to Rice University, then Rice University is the one who will get it.
And not all research universities are state owned. Rice university, in fact, is a private research institution (and a very good one, btw!)
Religious school? Or is this sort of thing set up through schools in your country?
They take the lords name in vain in heaven?
No, I think the guy just had me confused with the man in charge's kid.
HazySaiyan
Banned
I always meant to for the longest time but never got around to it. Finally did and it was super easy to do, so laziness was kind of a shitty excuse :|
backflip10019
Member
I'm not an organ donor because of the practices their people implement to get the organs immediately. While I understand that they need them as quickly as possible, they do some really scummy things to get them.
I've told this story in a similar thread in GAF before, but why not tell it again. When my uncle (who was 50) died a few years ago, the way that my elderly grandmother found out was from the organ collection agency calling her in the middle of the night. She hadn't yet been alerted by police or our family. She's not in the best health, so the shock of it almost killed her (she lost consciousness and had to go to the hospital).
I can't support organ donation because of what they put our family through (more specifically my dad, who had just lost his brother and best friend and had to deal with his mother being put into the hospital because of this organ harvesting company).
I've told this story in a similar thread in GAF before, but why not tell it again. When my uncle (who was 50) died a few years ago, the way that my elderly grandmother found out was from the organ collection agency calling her in the middle of the night. She hadn't yet been alerted by police or our family. She's not in the best health, so the shock of it almost killed her (she lost consciousness and had to go to the hospital).
I can't support organ donation because of what they put our family through (more specifically my dad, who had just lost his brother and best friend and had to deal with his mother being put into the hospital because of this organ harvesting company).
cloud_sleep
Member
You can take my liver when you pry it from my cold, dead -
- oh, wait.
- oh, wait.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
I said most (and even bigger private names like Stanford and Harvard come to mind first before Rice), but in some places you might not have private school donation option if cost of transportation is considered. Maybe that's a minor point.
The Incarnation
Member
What, that I value the free choice of people and that people shouldn't be forced into something.
If that blows your mind, fair enough.
Trying to make people feel guilty over it will have the opposite effect.
Similar to badgering people constantly who have abortions.
I want any of the people answering no to organ donation to take on my question (added to it for a couple other posts).
Are you willing to let an innocent child (say someone who's 12 and compatible with adult organs) die that needs your organ in spite of a "rotten society" or a "poor system"?
Are you willing to let an innocent child (say someone who's 12 and compatible with adult organs) die that needs your organ in spite of a "rotten society" or a "poor system"?
So, because the organ donation people called, which they are supposed to do, organ donation is a terrible vice?
Like, you don't think the hospital telling your grandma would have also shocked and destroyed her?
And how exactly is what they did scummy? That is what organ donation is supposed to do.
No, that you've turned "I'm not donating my organs" into being a liberty thumping pariah while your father is dying in front of you from that very mindset.
ClosingADoor
Member
While that is sad, how is that their fault? How would you have done things differently? I guess she was the contact person on some form about it, so they had to call her.
I'm sorry, but the blame in this is on the other people not notifying her in time, not the people handling the organ donation who are just doing their job.
And you are not punishing "their people" with this, but the innocent man or woman needing a donor.
spons
Gold Member
The actual argument here is that there are about a 1000 good things you can do for humanity and you can start with 999 of them right now. Right now I just refuse on the random people get my organs after I die thing. It's the bigger picture - it's the reason why some people say they're going to donate organs, yet refuse to get off their asses and do something right now for humanity.
Well I can't refute this. You're absolutely right, and about the children thing, I hate seeing children suffer. It's just that I still think there are other ways to do this. Fix health care first, then start cutting away in my body. There are so many problems right now that should have priority over this that I just don't want to fill in this specific form. Stop loafing around and socialize health care, then fix it by government force.
It's just that the "good for humanity" thing makes me throw up. Start doing shit right now if you really want to be good. I dare say that 99% of people could do more for humanity, and not just taking 5 minutes to fill in a form so they can use your organs after death.
I still have to think about this, because your post has made me change my initial thoughts on the subject. Thanks for that.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Was your uncle a registered donor? If he was then that call shouldn't have occurred in the first place. In any case you're upset that they acted too fast? You do realize organs need to be removed and cared for quickly otherwise they expire, right? If anything I'd be pissed if they waited even 15 minutes to begin preserving my good pieces.
mcz117chief
Member
I will ask my ethics teacher at school if there aren't any problems with donating organs, there probably aren't but I would like to get an educated opinion.
ClosingADoor
Member
Following this logic, you should be in favor of an opt out system, so everybody gets to be a organ donor by default. This fixes a major issue (the lack of organ donors) in the big picture you talk about.
The Incarnation
Member
He's nearly 80.
Last time I looked no one had a divine right to live forever.
He ain't complaining.
Also congrats. You've actually made more against organ donations than the people who need them themselves.
In short learn to leave people alone and let them make their minds up. Because minds can be changed. It's not your job to change them. Okay.
internetwolf
Banned
Never donating my organs unless I know exactly who is getting them.
old
Member
What are the safeguards from a doctor looking for parts? I want the best chance at survival and the best effort from the doctor. I don't want him being tempted to let me pass just because there's some dying kid that could use my heart.
On top of that there are medically documented cases where people die and for unknown reasons come back to life minutes or hours later. Nobody can explain it. Nobody knows why. But I want that chance too, no matter how small it is. If i'm otherwise still intact, I don't want them carving me up right after I flatline and eliminating that small chance.
Thus, I would be willing to donate if, and only if:
1. It is done in a way that the treating doctor does not know that I am a donor. They only find out after a reasonable amount of time after I have passed. I don't care if that threatens the viability of the organs. My concern is I have the best chance to live not if someone else lives.
2. Only donate immediately after death if I'm injured/killed in some horrifically mangled way (i.e. car crash) that prevents any possibility of continuing life, resuscitation, or aforementioned "miraculous" resurrection. If I flip my corvette and get bifurcated on a picket fence, then have at my organs or whatever other parts who can pick up off the road. At that point there's no goddam way I'll ever be using them again.
3. I get control on who could receive my organs. I wouldn't donate them to hospital or whatever. I'd donate them to a trust under my direction that controls who could receive them.
Maybe that's already how it is done. I don't know. But I'm not willing to sign my body and possibly my life over until I have more control on how, when, and who. I owe my body to nobody. You have no right to demand I make it available or make it available under your terms
On top of that there are medically documented cases where people die and for unknown reasons come back to life minutes or hours later. Nobody can explain it. Nobody knows why. But I want that chance too, no matter how small it is. If i'm otherwise still intact, I don't want them carving me up right after I flatline and eliminating that small chance.
Thus, I would be willing to donate if, and only if:
1. It is done in a way that the treating doctor does not know that I am a donor. They only find out after a reasonable amount of time after I have passed. I don't care if that threatens the viability of the organs. My concern is I have the best chance to live not if someone else lives.
2. Only donate immediately after death if I'm injured/killed in some horrifically mangled way (i.e. car crash) that prevents any possibility of continuing life, resuscitation, or aforementioned "miraculous" resurrection. If I flip my corvette and get bifurcated on a picket fence, then have at my organs or whatever other parts who can pick up off the road. At that point there's no goddam way I'll ever be using them again.
3. I get control on who could receive my organs. I wouldn't donate them to hospital or whatever. I'd donate them to a trust under my direction that controls who could receive them.
Maybe that's already how it is done. I don't know. But I'm not willing to sign my body and possibly my life over until I have more control on how, when, and who. I owe my body to nobody. You have no right to demand I make it available or make it available under your terms
FortuneFaded
Member
The fix for this is so simple. If you opt in for organ donation, then you are allowed to recieve organs while you are alive and any viable organs must be donated after you die. If you opt out, you are not allowed to recieve organs while you are alive and you get to keep your organs after you die. Simples.
Wanna know how I know you vote libertarian?
entremet
Member
That's not how it works.
Bloody typing, genetic compatibility, and so on. Too many variables.
spons
Gold Member
Maybe it does, and maybe the people in favor of opt-out systems are right. Like I said, I need to put some more thought in this after reading some arguments here.
I just think the priority should be to fix the health care business so in the long-term we don't need organ donors for most problems. But the short-term needs a solution too, and donating organs may well be it.
FortuneFaded
Member
Would you only recieve organs from people you know?
AKA he's never donating his organs then ...
The Incarnation
Member
Well, first...
Second, donating your organs requires minimal effort (just registration) and would require no effort in an opt out format that countries like Belgium have. You are employing a "cut off your nose in spite of your face". People shouldn't register because they should be doing more? That's not very logical.
It should be "OK you registered. Let's talk about what else you can do", not "Don't register for this thing that will save lives until you do this harder thing to save lives".
backflip10019
Member
I'm upset that they weren't sensitive to the context of the situation. Maybe I just expect they would have access to more information or health records to make a decision that calling an elderly woman who is not in good health in the middle of the night to ask to harvest her son's organs is not the best decision.
It might not make logical sense to you guys, but it's not something I can support right now because of what my family was put through as a result of their actions (even if they were doing what they were supposed to be doing).
RumblingRosco
Member
I'm a huge supporter of organ donation. Hell, I've made a thread discussing it that I bump every now and then. But, some how, this idea doesn't sit well with me. I can't say why exactly, I just don't feel good about it.
I understand your concern and I am really sorry that your grandmother had to go through that situation. If it's any consolation, the grief your grandmother felt would probably also have been felt by the families of the people whose lives your uncle saved by donating his organs, but those families were fortunate enough to keep their loved one alive thanks to your uncle. I don't know your uncle, but I would suspect that the last thing he'd want now is to know that his donation experience has kept you (and maybe the rest of your family?) from donating to save other lives. Maybe that's a dick move of me to guilt you like this, so I'm sorry for that, but really consider who you're punishing here by choosing not to donate your organs. Hint: it's a handful of innocent sick people.
Did you ever contact the hospital (or whatever group) it was that called your grandmother? What did they say about the situation?
GeordieMark
Member
I'm happy for mine to go to whoever needs them once I'm done with them, but I don't agree with trying to make people who don't want to donate feel bad about it. Its a personal choice. Trying to shame people who aren't prepared to donate is a bit shitty in my opinion.
That the doctors who are saving your life are not the ones who decide where your organs go.
Once you die, there is a ticking clock as to how long your organs are viable prior to harvest. What you are advocating is something that would make organ donation not viable.
it's doesn't threaten, it actually does make organ donation not viable.
ClosingADoor
Member
Have you ever heard a story of a doctor letting somebody die on purpose because they were an organ donor? I haven't. It is their job to safe lives. They are not going to let you die because you are an organ donor.
Fair enough, but I trust the doctors here enough for them to declare me death when I am. If I'm in a coma or something, there are rules and such in place to go through first. My family would need to give the OK to pull the plug to put it bluntly.
This is not possible. Organ donation is a time sensitive issue, so you can't store it for a while and then donate it while they go through people who could receive them. There is already a list with who needs it most and they get it if possible.
This is true, it is your body. If you don't want to donate, that is up to you. But I think some reasons people give for not donating are very selfish or uninformed.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Yes, and I have a problem with the State owning the default rights to my organs after I die. That should be my implicit choice by myself when I'm alive and my family after I'm dead.
The onus shouldn't be on me to make a claim to retain my organs upon my death. The State shouldn't have default rights to human remains. No matter how well the ends would justify the means.
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